Here's the link to the full story, including full text of the legal agreements:
http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_eaa-faa-reach-agreement-on-airventure-atc-costs.asp
Here's the link to the full story, including full text of the legal agreements:
http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_eaa-faa-reach-agreement-on-airventure-atc-costs.asp
Glad to see an agreement that has a future.
How can the FAA ever show up to Oshkosh as they have in the past ?
I can remember going to a "meet the administrator" question and answer gathering
I came away thinking they were not my "friend" but they were not out to get me either.
If they had the gathering now--people would throw rocks at them
sad to say--it will from now on be a "us versus them"
Other than taking the uncertainty out of the situation, what was gained by this settlement? It appears that EAA has agreed to pay, for the next nine years, the same costs for which they were assessed in 2013.
Not true, I'm afraid. The controllers working OSH have always been "volunteers" in the sense that they request such duty (as opposed to being involuntarily assigned to it). They're paid their standard hourly rate and receive time-and-a-half only if they work more than 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week, just as if they were working at their home facility. There's nothing in the agreement to indicate that's changed.
The amount of overtime used at the event itself is insignificant. However, if a controller is working at OSH, that means there's a hole in the schedule at his home facility-- and if the FAA has to call in overtime at the home facility to fill that hole, that overtime cost is passed on to the event organizer.
After reading the EAA Q&A on the subject (http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_...services.asp#1) it's clear they expect no cost savings: "The FAA will charge EAA its actual cost for the same elements that were charged for in 2013: travel; backfill overtime (for FAA personnel who fill in for the controllers and others who have come to Oshkosh); supplies; and overhead; all at FAA's standard rates."
I think a better subject for this thread would be, "EAA Folds, re: ATC Fees for Airventure." EAA has chosen to rollover on the issue to insure certainty and stability-- understandable, but it sets a precedent for all such events, even though there's been no fair hearing as to whether the FAA has the right to impose such user fees in the first place.
EAA just agreed to User Fees for GA. You have created a Situation for which there is no return.
I am disgusted that you agreed to a payment agreement with the FAA, worse yet, it was agreed to in Secret negotiations with no opportunity for the membership to provide comment.
The worst part is that we now have no leg to stand on battling user fees.
How could a loss in court have been worse that paying the FAA extortion?
Have you no concept of Principle?
You put survival of your organization over the interests of your membership.
EAA management has really blown it this time. I will not profess to speak for others but as for me I believe Mr Pelton will if he has any integrity resign immediately . Mr Pelton I would say to you that you and your management team do not speak for me. Any person or organization which is unwilling to stand and fight for a matter of principle as great as this deserves to fail. If fighting this means that Oshkosh needs to be canceled for one or two years in order to win this battle then so be it. It would return stronger than ever. How can the management of EAA go directly against the wishes of so many of its members and expect to prosper. You have made it clear that this organization is all about the money. This is completely and utterly disgusting. The membership of this organization should demand the immediate departure of the senior management staff.
I went and read the FAQs. I did not see that the EAA staff investegated contractor services. I talked to Air Boss, Inc at Sebring during the Sport Pilot Expo about whether they could do EAA. The owner said yes. That all of his employees were ex FAA controllers and ALL had done AV. He said he could do it with half the staff and for 1/3 the cost.
See this article: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...C-C51D20F1BC98
Their service was fantastic. I encourage the EAA board to FIRE the FAA and hire this group. If the FAA fails to give the EAA the NOTAMs they need to do their event, then we should continue to sue.
Hal,
I have a question for you and Pelton. Did the agreement require the FAA administrator to show up at AV all of those years with his staff and face the members in a Townhall and to meet with the members on their concerns? If not, then EAA screwed up.
Disappointed in the lack of leadership. EAA was placed in a tough spot but this "settlement" is more accurately described as "total capitulation".EAA argues that canceling AirVenture would greatly harm GA. So why did they not use this to our advantage? Threaten to cancel the event, allow the community, industry politicians to rise up in outrage at the potential loss of our SuperBowl. An FAA backdown under the face of overwhelming public pressure would have been a great victory for GA. Instead, our second largest association has meekly accepted user fees. I believe this has harmed GA more than canceling AirVenture for a year would.I can buy the argument there wasn't enough time to create an alternative to the FAA controllers last year using volunteers or contractors. But with more than a year to work on it? The EAA community has demonstrated many times a capability to safely and responsibly stage complex aviation activities. The procedures are already in place and are not rocket science to execute. Wresting control from FAA would have been an empowering move. But again, EAA has simply rolled over. I have it on good authority that EAA won't use volunteer or contract controllers for fear of accident liability coming back to the organization.No one is asking EAA to be reckless, but the complete absence of backbone is worrying. It leaves the distinct impression that EAA is prioritizing its own balance sheet ahead of the wider interest of the community.
Put me down as another member who would have rather seen Oshkosh cancelled than EAA agreeing to this. They have formalized the same situation that they were willing to fight in court last year. The EAA has willingly opened GA to administratively applied user fees. This will not benefit GA in the long run.
Since this forum only represents the opinions, comments and viewpoints of only 4.8% of the the total membership--hardly a bellweather for consensus of opinion on this or any other subject--, I'd like to know the following: From, Hal, can you tell us what the consensus is from phone calls and emails to HQ? From all forum users, as I am not on other social media, can you provide a ballpark figure of consensus from all other social media(e.g., Facebook, Twitter, etc.) on this subject? These numbers are important.
Questions concerning the 2 Agreements:
Since the 2014 Reimbursable Agreement does not supersede or nullify the 2013 Agreement, why didn't EAA ask for or insist on a repayment of that portion of the almost $450,000 that could be counted as the Discounted amount that's allowed for in the 2014 Agreement? That's a huge amount.
The 2014 Reimbursable Agreement allows for EAA to opt out of the agreement anytime during the Term. However, should the Agreement run its course of 9 years, there is no provision to renew, renegotiate or extend. It just expires. This is quite unusual. What happens after expiration?
And finally to Sean Elliot: Your job description has changed immensely with the added big time oversight duties and responsibilities of these Agreements. Have you ask for a raise?
Two points:
Yes please, what about Member Consensus?
It follows naturally that EAA might claim that survival of the Organization is essential to the survival of GA. EAA, please don't go there.
I will, however, give EAA a way out of this that is right up Sean's alley. Victory can still be snatched from the Jaws of Defeat by a Legislative solution that satisfactorily rectifies this situation.
EAA- I'm watching. Let's see how you do on the PNC part of SARA, GAPPA, and a long term legislative overturn of this debacle. You have the opportunity to make the future better. Please do so.
ok, then maybe a raise.
Color me disgusted, disappointed, and angry.
It will be impossible to stop users fees now, thanks to EAA -- the organization I was counting on to save us from double taxation.
I love Oshkosh. This will be my 32nd consecutive trip to Wittman Field. But I would have gladly sacrificed 2014 to make this point .
Hi Floats -
I can't give you any indication of calls or emails at this point, other than to say that there's been no feedback via any of the (what I'd call "secondary") inboxes to which I personally have access.
I haven't seen any response on Twitter beyond 8 retweets and 2 "favorites."
With respect to Facebook, we've seen feedback in two places - the Facebook plugin below the story on EAA.org and on our Facebook page:
The news story on EAA.org has 269 likes so far and 8 comments which you can read for yourself: http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_eaa-faa-reach-agreement-on-airventure-atc-costs.asp
The post on our Facebook page has, as of now, 182 likes, 32 shares, and 11 comments. Again, you can read those for yourself (you should be able to view all of the comments without a Facebook login):
https://www.facebook.com/EAAHQ/posts...?stream_ref=10
There have been no wall posts or direct messages via our Facebook page regarding this announcement.
I don't have the answers to those questions. For anyone who has questions or concerns, I'd urge you to join the webinar presentation next week - Jack Pelton will present live and we expect plenty of time for interactive Q&A. If you can't attend, the webinar will be recorded and published as usual. You can find the details here:
http://www.eaa.org/webinars/
Thanks -
Hal
Hi Hal,
Thanks for the info and for posting the Facebook sites that did allow me to view comments without a login.
If you could keep us apprised and updated of any emails or calls received that would be great.
Because of the time in my timezone and the fact that it's during work hours, I may not be able to join the Webinar, as much as I'd like to. So I'm asking if you could provide Jack with my first 2 questions for inclusion in the Q&A portion, that would be much appreciated. My 3rd question was of course with tongue planted firmly in cheek and an attempt to lighten the mood and extent of the vitriol being expressed.
Hal,
Here is my question and feedback for the Webinar. Please pass to Jack.
The contract allows for EAA to find alternate services. Has or will EAA contact Air Boss, Inc Lead by George Cline and see if he is willing to staff the ATC with his Retired FAA Controllers all of whom have worked AV. He has stated he could do AV for 1/2 the staff that FAA will bring and 1/3 the cost and do a better job as his controllers are all trained in VFR operations which current FAA non-Contract controllers are not.
I would rather pay George than give ONE $ to the FAA.
Thanks for the headsup, I just happen to be available for the webinar this Tuesday. Hopefully there will be some insight into future success for GA gleamed from the decisions being made by the EAA. Unfortunately, at this point, I'm disappointed with the EAA for signing such agreements. Hopefully this webinar isn't an effort to save face with the members, by closing the door after the horses run off!
Best Regards.......George
I noticed the agreements were actually signed on March 19th. Oldest PR trick in the book to slip the bad news out on a Friday afternoon.
I cannot believe EAA did this. Unacceptable.
To me this proves what I suspected for years. EAA has completely and totally lost its way, and now has placed their own self interests ahead that of general/sport aviation.
I won't be renewing my membership as a direct result of this fiasco.
Hal - more questions for Jack and the webcast.
Given that this capitulation may have set a horrible precedent for GA User Fees, and perhaps EAA considered it would be best fought with Airventure fully functioning,...
What will be EAA's Legislative Agenda to achieve a statutory prohibition on User Fees? (This is EAA's chance to redeem themselves)
How will EAA keep the membership informed before the fact, and most importantly, engaged?
I'm seriously appalled by this whole thing. I'm not very sure what to say over this as well. if theres a chance to redeem yourselves, EAA, better do it quick. I'll be thinking about pulling my membership as well, and that is sad. :(
If Mr Pelton really wants to hear from the membership perhaps he should consider having the webinar at a time that more people could attend. Maybe 8pm CST might be a good time. This would allow the majority of those of us who work a better chance to ask questions and get the facts first hand. Then again I have a concern that the 12 noon time was chosen deliberately to minimize the blowback from such a poor decision. We alteady pay for the FAA through the many taxes we pay on fuel and in general and now we are going to pay them twice. Insanity at best!. We as an organisation must draw a line and say, No further and stand our ground. We must fight for what is right and not back down. If we roll over now we will allowing the camels nose under the tent and will be forever sorry. Raise my dues enough to cover the lost revenue from not having Oshkosh this year and fight the FAA with all we have. I would bet that I am not nearly the only one who feels this way. Since it is clear that it all comes down to revenue for the EAA, you now have an easy way to make it a revenue nuetral decision. Any other excuses for not standing up and fighting this issue ???? Or is it simply a matter of no backbone ?. I am shocked and disgusted by this agreement, and the fact that the membership was given no opportunity to voice thier opinions before it was signed. Mr Pelton, this is not great leadership, it is waving the white flag and groveling.
I would like to see Mr. Pelton reply to this thread so we as members can be assured he is hearing what is being said here.
I agree this is totally unacceptable. EAA has just legitimized FAA user fees for all of GA, not just Oshkosh, in one fell stroke. This is the typical situation where lack of long range strategic thinking has caused EAA to "win the battle" but "loose the war". Few, if any, activities in GA are larger or more significant that Oshkosh so having the event run by a private contractor would have been a better strategic decision than to accept user fees. Now in Congress, the FAA has a huge "ally" in the user fee debate. They can and will say: "The biggest GA event in the world, which is held here in the US, accepts user fees." An almost insurmountable argument to counter in Congress. You can add me to the list of those that will not be renewing my EAA membership once it expires. :mad:
They didn't even "win the battle"
If the criteria was to keep Airventure open, they won their battle.
EAA seems to think keeping Airventure is worth any price. We had this same discussion last year when the FAA demanded payment for Airventure. EAA placed keeping Airventure going over Principle then, indicated they were taking the ethical high ground by going to court, and then once again, folded like a cheap card table.
Now the real question is, how do we win the war?
How much did EAA agree to pay for (tax-payer previously paid) employees to come to OSH?
I really don't believe canceling AV to make a statement to the Feds would do any good and the cancelation would still hurt GA.
I agree EAA has become too Corporate and the "settlement" is wrong. Just recently I decided to become a lifetime member. But now, I think I'll just wing it yearly and see what happens. So sad indeed....
I agree that it would hurt GA right now but can we afford this short term gain for a long term loss? At some point we have to realize that progress isn't always painless. That depends on which "war" EAA thinks they are fighting, the Oshkosh war or the bigger User Fee war? EAA can't see that Oshkosh is not a war but just a battleground within the much bigger User Fee war, something this administration clearly understands. That is why they first pressured the smaller air shows (Sun-N-Fun, Copperstate) until one of them caved which gave them better leverage over EAA and Oshkosh. Get the lower hanging fruit first then, when they are in line, you go for the big guys until you subdue them all. Typical divide and conquer strategy. Oshkosh is about making $$$ for EAA not about representing experimenters and our desires. The administration understood this and manipulated the process beautifully. :(
I disagree, If Oshkosh was canceled this year when all the money that would be spent in the surrounding areas failed to appear as a result of the FAA trying to rob us just how much hell would be raised by the business community and ultimately by their congress person. How many dollars would go elsewhere as a result, millions perhaps when you consider that every dollar we spend in the hotels, restaraunts, bars, stores and many other places gets spent many times over by employess and business owners within the surrounding area. My guess is we would not have this problem next year as congress would be forced to act to reign in the FAA as a result of the public outcry. It would certainly strenghten our position and at the least increase our bargaining power. There is no down side for the EAA except for the loss of revenue, which is where this decision came from. I stll say stand and fight , raise my dues to offset the loss of income. Have we not seen this before ???, Wakeup people. It is called taxation without representation. Have we turned into a nation of sheeple who are afraid or just plain to lazy to stand up for what is right ?????. I have not forgotten the lessons taught by history , and while I do not propose we take to arms over this , we still need to fight. It is wrong and no amount of politically correct BS from the EAA so called leadership will make it right. I say fight !!!!.
If GA put the cost of ATC services being charged by the FAA, up to a vote of the general tax payer, the fight to have the FAA cover the cost would go down in flames. Maybe it is best to bit the bullet on this one and get as much time as we can on the free ride we have enjoyed for so long. No doubt GA will be faced with more and more user fees in the future. Entering a winner-take-all fight now, could mean we loose a lot sooner, rather than later.
Best Regards.......George
What about events that require additional ATC services that aren't made to pay? I thought the Super Bowl doesn't have to pay. What about the Masters?
Oh, that's right. The corporate jet users are likely large political donors. Can't get them upset. As anything in government; follow the money.