Ultralight Engine Options

I would have posted this in the Homebuilt Forum, but I figured that since I am asking about an Ultralight engine, I should post here.

I have a set of Affordaplane plans. The plans show a Rotax 477 engine mount, but I understand that Rotax (along with everyone else) has gotten out of the 2-stroke Ultralight (UL) engine business. A 1/2 VW is a possibility, but I'm not sold on it.

What is current "state of the art" in UL engines? What do UL manufacturers currently use on their new products, and what do UL builders put on the airframe of their ULs?

Is there still a 60-ish pound, 40-ish (or better) HP engine out there in the new market? I'm not opposed to used. I just want manufacturer support for my engine, if I need it.

Thanks in advance.

John

As this thread, ultralights in America are dead. There are a few building them, legal eagle and belite but that's about it. Even a quicksilver with a 447 is over the 254 lbs limit. But it does look like an ultralight so no one says anything.
You will find trying to meet the par 103 regs in the USA is going to be tough using anything but a single cylinder engine. Ultralight engines are as dead as the ultralight, in the USA with our regs the way they are.


Tony

Tony - Thanks for replying.

Part 103 is not that important to me. I hold a Private Pilot license, so I can simply register as an Experimental/Amateur Built, give it an N-number, and be on my way.

The issue, of course, being the engine. Your smallest homebuilt engine is probably too big for the Aplane. 1/2 VW is iffy.

After posting, I finally remembered Hirth Engines. I googled Hirth, and found a U.S. distributer in Tiffin, OH (http://www.recpower.com). The 2702 comes in a little fat at 70 lbs, free air cooling (even heavier w/the gearbox or forced air), but may be doable @ 40HP.

I owned a 2702. Be very careful here. These had a bearing issue. The new Hirth water cooled engines are nice but the early Hirth's had bearing issue's.

Tony

There has never been 60-ish pound, 40-ish (or better) HP engine produced
Your choice beside Rotax which you can still easily get as used is currently produced Hirth or MZ by Compact Radial Engines

Compact radial out of Canada...I would run from this company. The down fall to this company is...Leon the owner. I could give you all the details but this is another story.

Tony

Belite is going to be showing off the following engine at Sun-n-Fun: 36.5 HP, water cooled, dual ignition, gear reduction propeller drive. Tuned air intake and exhaust. Internally counterbalanced. No vibration. Clutch!?. 54 pounds with ignition, exhaust, air cleaner, all mounting hardware. Italian!! Look, fit & finish like a Ferrari. See it at Sun 'n Fun in just over 3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Ken Finney

Belite is going to be showing off the following engine at Sun-n-Fun: 36.5 HP, water cooled, dual ignition, gear reduction propeller drive. Tuned air intake and exhaust. Internally counterbalanced. No vibration. Clutch!?. 54 pounds with ignition, exhaust, air cleaner, all mounting hardware. Italian!! Look, fit & finish like a Ferrari. See it at Sun 'n Fun in just over 3 weeks.

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Really...? Sounds interesting......

It will be sexy for its Italian made.

Just ask an Italian

Tony

The MZ is a fine engine - the reports of the MZ being a bad engine come from 12 years ago with disgruntled PPC owners who didn't know how to tune the carbs. ( Rotax has the same problem - they just did a better job of addressing it) It is true that the owner is not a salesman and there is not a distribution network. His machine work is excellent. The PPG people like his engine. I have the MZ-201. Rotax 337, 447 , 503s are readily available with plenty plenty of parts worldwide and a lot of people skilled in maintaining them.

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

Really...? Sounds interesting......

It will be sexy for its Italian made.

Just ask an Italian

Tony

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Ooooooohhhhhhh....Sexy Italian Affordaplane! :-D

Guys, I want to thank all of you for the comments and suggestions. I hope the belite engine is for real. Usually, when it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

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Originally Posted by Jim Heffelfinger

The MZ is a fine engine - the reports of the MZ being a bad engine come from 12 years ago with disgruntled PPC owners who didn't know how to tune the carbs. ( Rotax has the same problem - they just did a better job of addressing it) It is true that the owner is not a salesman and there is not a distribution network. His machine work is excellent. The PPG people like his engine. I have the MZ-201. Rotax 337, 447 , 503s are readily available with plenty plenty of parts worldwide and a lot of people skilled in maintaining them.

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Jim I agree but you could have the best product in the world but if you treat your customers badly you have junk. I am impressed with the line of engines Compact Radial has, but after my dealings with this companies owner I will not even look at them.

Tony

I will give you some history:

Compact radial build a reduction unit that was held on by 3 bolts. After having these units in service everyone of these failed. Leon recalled these units but he had some that never did get returned. They went on new airplanes and sold to customers like me. After loosing my prop and reduction unit at 1000' to say I was upset was not saying enough.
I call and speak with some man whom answered the phone, he was the one who informed me about these failures. It was not Leon the owner. When I mentioned this to him he cussed me up one wall then down the other. He was upset or pissed.
He blamed everyone but his product for my incident that could have killed me. It cost me over 1300 bucks to repair this engine. This was a brand new engine and airplane. 4 hrs total time on both.
He should have replaced my parts and no charge to me and smiled doing it. He bitched as I forked over 1300 bucks to repair my engine. Never again. I will not fly behind two strokes. You can have them.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Mr_Intensity

Ooooooohhhhhhh....Sexy Italian Affordaplane! :-D

Guys, I want to thank all of you for the comments and suggestions. I hope the belite engine is for real. Usually, when it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

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Just wanted to state for the record the James Wiebe of Belite is one of the most straight-up guys around. It's not "his" engine, he just found it. Engine-wise, he's certainly kissed enough toads over the years, maybe he finally found a prince!

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Originally Posted by Mr_Intensity

1/2 VW is iffy.

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I see Tony isn't biting, but what's iffy about 1/2 WV? If you listen to Sam or any other Legal Eagle flier, 1/2 WV is the best engine ever made.

I do like the 1/2 vw or the vw line of aviation engines. I would never pass up a 4 stroke.

Tony

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Originally Posted by zaitcev

I see Tony isn't biting, but what's iffy about 1/2 WV? If you listen to Sam or any other Legal Eagle flier, 1/2 WV is the best engine ever made.

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Don't know about "best engine ever made", but the 1/2 VW is an excellent option for a plane that can use a direct drive engine.

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Originally Posted by Ken Finney

Just wanted to state for the record the James Wiebe of Belite is one of the most straight-up guys around. It's not "his" engine, he just found it. Engine-wise, he's certainly kissed enough toads over the years, maybe he finally found a prince!

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Isn't James in Wichita?
I think that's just the "Bible belt" attitude:).

I believe the Italian engine in question might be a Polini. I have a recent trike with a Polini Thor-250 that runs like a champ. It is only 36 hp, but is water-cooled, and has been flawless in the first ten hours. I will post any interesting results as the hours start to add up. So far, so good.

Engine Picture from facebook....

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...77237326_o.jpg

Definitely a Polini.

==
Michael

So on the subject of engines. I have a Rotax 503 from a snowmobile. Is it comparable with the gear drives for use in an airframe? I've read there are some differences in the case that would affect the bolt patterns.

http://www.woelfle-engineering.com/Produkte/produkte_XFXH40rotaryengines_en.html

the polini is a cart engine . there a lot of different cart engines .
here is the one i am looking aat now xf 40 rotary [wankel type] 294 cc 31 hp weighs 25 kg with the radiator ,w/o the redrive.
i am wondering about the fuel usage .
i do know they make a little nicer sound than the traditional single piston
http://www.woelfle-engineering.com/P...ngines_en.html
optimized for endurance use. The engine has high-temperature ball and roller bearings to further improve its excellent emergency running properties, additional vents allow almost unidirectional mounting, and the autoventilated V-belt pulley keeps the drive belt cool.

bump

ultralight engines

If I were tackling a new ultralight design in 2014, I'd base it on one of the proven 25-30 hp paramotor engine packages and do absolutely nothing to it, just bolt it on a pusher design and go. The Cors-Air (JPX Italia) Black Devel M25Y is one and there are others.

Sandlin Bloop 2
http://youtu.be/a88_dmD9lV8

Italian Zigolo Ultralight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPDQ6SUbSM8

Zigolo costs as much as Aerolite 103, which is much better. Zigolo is basically a motirized GOAT.

The XR-50 rotary engines have been tried for our planes by Phantom - http://www.phantomaero.com/ Owner had a whole blog on the conversion and trials. Testing memory - he had issues with the main bearing loading to the redrive. These are cart engine - tightly tuned and a completely different loading curve to aircraft.
New configuration with derated power and more/better bearings might be worth a look. Just because Rotax has reduced their product line doesn't mean the segment of aviation use doesn't have options.
J

i am attracted to the wankel type engine because of the reduced vibration and the +exhaust note+

contraindications would be the high initial cost and the high rate of fuel burn. the 5 gal limitation on a Part 103 compliant thus endurance.
perhaps a goal of an N number and a Sport Cert is in my future , that would allow more fuel AND a full cockpit enclosure.
[humm , Can i get an N number with un certified engine ? }
listen to this exhaust : not like the scream of the Hirth F33 which is the other COTS engine on my A list

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVML2sQ_cvg

i am a little bummed out , LSA regs part [ please supply] specify a speed [120 knts]at maximum continuous power , ul [part 103 ] specify full power and 55 knts, i think i , as an old rule reader will squint real hard and interpret full power as max cont pwr ..

WOT [wide open throttle ] on these engines im looking at is 6000K rpm , max continuous is abt 75% or 4500 rpm . .. makes a difference do not you know , i doubt i would go to WOT on take off thrust [OTHERS WOULD]
for consistency in rule making the power settings should be the same through out the classes

i think i should be able to operate at Vno [normal operating] [75% pwr] specified as 58 mph on my selected airframe VICE WOT & 55knts [wazzit 63 mph?]
then again i ran the numbers on AC 103-7 appx 1 with the 28 hp hirth and a full faired enclosed cockpit and was good. , have not run the numbers with the XF40 31 HP max. . highly unlikely i can fabricate up a fully faired enclosed cockpit and meet the 254 lb empty weight [dry] AS REQUIRED BY PART 103

i think part 103 should allow for full faired ENCLOSED cockpits , all i really want is a high lift low drag motor glider good wing. , 55 knts at max cont pwr, 5 gal fuel [ ok ok ]
something with a l/d of.. 28+ .. Vne up to eh 150 knts ., . like the clip i posted on another string , catch some lift up to 18K .. [be sure and take your OXY bottle]

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Originally Posted by mrbarry

i think part 103 should allow for full faired ENCLOSED cockpits ,

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Is there anything specifically prohibiting an enclosed cockpit on a part 103 ultralight?

I've seen a skypup with an enclosed cockpit which still had #30 unused lbs for meeting part 103 requirements.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

Is there anything specifically prohibiting an enclosed cockpit on a part 103 ultralight?

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no , its just the weight limits, by the time one builds a good strong wing , has an adequate crash cage and hangs on 5--60+ lbs of engine there is not a lot of weight left for faring..
skypup is cute https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Skypup-club/info

here is an example for the well heeled ,

http://windward-performance.com/spar...pecifications/

+5 /-4 , l/d 37/1 Vne 123 knts ,Empty Weight – 155 lbs

i have seen motor glider tests with this airframe & a Hirth F33 [45 lbs w redrive & electric start]
it is all kevlar and carbon fiber.. fixed engine pylon .

On the topic of ultralight engines, Jim Wiebe posted a panegiric to Polini:
http://jameswiebe.wordpress.com/2014...e-ever-except/

Polini looks like a nice power plant to me .

but just go back and listen to the engine note, on the wankle 313 cc on the +KID+ airframe .

compared to this polini

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZIjX31w0Kc

id like to try these radials out ,,
sure would like to see images of it running , power out put seems low but the 3-cycl cool factor makes up for that

http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz430.html

Attachment 4255

or this 4 cyl radial ..

http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz570.html

i think the fuel burn is high on them though iaw the specs .

Attachment 4254

the 3 cyl in operation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1KgurcDTqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEx2b2LByUA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrbarry

no , its just the weight limits, by the time one builds a good strong wing , has an adequate crash cage and hangs on 5--60+ lbs of engine there is not a lot of weight left for faring..
skypup is cute https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Skypup-club/info

here is an example for the well heeled ,

http://windward-performance.com/spar...pecifications/

+5 /-4 , l/d 37/1 Vne 123 knts ,Empty Weight – 155 lbs

i have seen motor glider tests with this airframe & a Hirth F33 [45 lbs w redrive & electric start]
it is all kevlar and carbon fiber.. fixed engine pylon .

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Windward Sparrowhawk motorglider does not make the FAR-103 powered stall speed limit. FAR 103 has no stall speed limit for gliders.

Konig type radial engines, three or four cylinder, are not something Leon (Compact Radial Engines) wants to sell. Costs and tooling are complications. Per many year old conversations.

I like the look of these engines. http://www.simoniniusa.com/