Has anyone had any experience with this:
http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/
it sounds almost too good to be true.
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Has anyone had any experience with this:
http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/
it sounds almost too good to be true.
There was the John Steere reserve grand champion airplane called "Bodacious"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie
Also a Tailwind builder has used it.
It's rather expensive. I would seriously consider it even so, though, because I hate painting, and because it's so light. Lead times for materials from Germany can be an issue. Took forever to get a sample kit when I was considering a lower wing recover to make repairs, but in the end I didn't have to recover so I never tried the samples. Some people don't like it because it's not super shiny, but neither were new Cubs out of the factory.
Read ALL of the installation instructions before you make a commitment. That stuff requires a LOT of attention to detail.
It may be worthwhile on a new plane, but I decided against it for a recover.
John
There is a long thread over on the SuperCub forum with a guy recovering with Oratex including numerous "how to" videos. In his opinion, it's the greatest thing since sliced break. I've done minor repairs with it for special circumstances. It works OK and is light weight. Would I do a full recover with it on one of my planes? No. I'd still use either nitrate/butyrate dope with a Urethane finish or Stewart as a safer system. But some of the guys that compete in the STOL competitions use Oratex because of it's super light weight.
As mentioned by Dana, it saves on painting. Painting is a lot of work and (IMHO) not a lot of fun. I figure every time I pick up a spray gun, it is a perfect opportunity to foul up a really nice airplane. :rollseyes: Mistakes in dope sprays are easy to fix. Mistakes in finish coats usually become permanent, so you do your best to mask/hide the errors. Nothing like spraying 19 perfect coats of dope and finish polyurethane only to foul up the finish on the 20th coat. Been there, done that. :mad:
-Cub Builder
I had a nice email discussion with the head of the company. Sounds like a good option for a lot of planes. However, in my case, a recover would have cost about 75% of the value of my Fly Baby. I figure it was about twice what a normal fabric/latex paint recover would cost.
Makes sense with something like an antique or classic with some value.
Ron Wanttaja
Yes, it's nice stuff, but not yet legal in the USA on certificated aircraft, you know, the ones with some value...unless you think Bearhawks and the designs of Wag Aero, Steen, Marquardt, and Pitts may have some value, too.
Oh my, wouldn't that be like putting a flat panel instrument display in a Monocoupe? Yuck!Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
The USA is about the only country where it is not certified (yet). Certified in Canada, Europe, NZ, for all Pipers, Maules etc.
See here some planes covered in it:Attachment 5369Attachment 5370Attachment 5371Attachment 5372Attachment 5373Attachment 5374Attachment 5375Attachment 5376
Well... it pretty much *looks* like standard fabric, so I don't see it as a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
A classic or antique should have Stits, either, but it seems a lot more common these days than the original cotton or linen.
Ron Wanttaja
I used Oratex to cover my Belite Ultracub and I had very good results. I chose to paint the covering because I wanted a specific design, and I made a couple mistakes with the adhesive (totally my fault) but the method is quite easy and finish turned out great. I recommend it to people all the time.
Attachment 5389
Some more planes covered in it... food for thought.
Attachment 5377Attachment 5378Attachment 5379Attachment 5380Attachment 5381Attachment 5382Attachment 5383Attachment 5384Attachment 5385Attachment 5386
Lars, all the photos you've posted are for non-certified aircraft, all which are legal in the USA to be covered with Oratex, except for the Super Cub: did that get a one-time only STC (field approval)?
That's some good airplane porn......
Hi, The FAA is flat out denying any Field Approvals of any kind of Aircraft Fabric since all the Ceconite STC's were done; "its National Policy" I was told. The USA is about the ONLY meaningful country where Oratex is not approved. The Canadian Approval took only 4 month and they only had reasonable questions and the New Zealand approval took like 3 weeks with some local NZ testing that they wanted to see it with their own eyes...Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty old aviator
So, we are still working with the FAA on this...
But I sure think it is disgusting to deny field approvals of Orphaned antique planes that were certified even before CAR-3 existed etc...
The "Super Cub" is not a super Cub PA18 at all. Like the black one is the one-of-a-kind 250hp Glacier Cub, "the Instant Valdez Winner" of Breeden fame! The white Cub on the other page is the first flyable "Javron Cub" the wonderful Kitplane produced in great quality by Jay Rossier; This one in Oratex was build by Larry Vetterman of the good Exhaust-company fame!
Best Regards from Alaska!
Lars
P.S.: Meanwhile in Canada any Piper or Maule is legal to cover in Oratex6000
So maybe I should post "Under Construction photos" instead ... (hehe)Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
Attachment 5395Attachment 5396Attachment 5397Attachment 5398
Hello- I am just finishing a Wittman Tailwind and hope to do first engine start in 2 weeks with first flight in April. After much research and evaluation, I decided to use Oratex and am very happy that I did. I evaluated the cost, the weight, the strength and the health aspects and decided it made alot of sense. I have had no experience with covering a real airplane so did not have to relearn anything. When I considered the cost of equipment and building a paint booth and all the labor of sanding, I think the cost was a "wash". I found it easy to use and got very good support from Lars. I made up a sample panel and put it out in the weather and sun in Wisconsin for about 8 months and found no change in it. I especially enjoyed doing the tail surfaces in my house basement and did not have to worry about fumes etc. I did learn quite a few things and would do a better job next time but I think it turned out just fine. I will try to post some pictures and will also post a link to a video that I will do on first engine start.
Keith.
The Belite that is covered in oratex had a hard off field landing. Doing this caused some of this oratex to rip. I asked this man if those rips or tears, if you tried to rip it more did it tear or rip easy. He said it rips or tears easy after the first tear or rip. Not good..
Tony
It shouldn't be all that different from any other fabric; I believe Oratex uses pretty much the same base polyester fabric as Poly-Fiber or other processes.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
My airplane is covered in Ceconite. It does not rip easy even if it has been ripped. The key word here would be { Easy }.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana
"Easy" is a relative term.
If a lot of my relatives hadn't been easy, I wouldn't be here.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
Ron "Hey there, sailor" Wanttaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
If the fabric on your airplane tore " easy " if ripped,, you would not be here either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
That is what I was saying..Easy is a key word here. What is easy for you may be hard for me. But the point to the conversation. Once that fabric is ripped it does not take much to keep ripping it. Let me ask this. If using Oratex fabric, would you fly if the fabric was ripped?
Ceconite is polyester fabricQuote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
Oratex is polyester fabric
Polyfiber is polyester fabric
I think that is the point Dana was making.......the base material is the same. Weave, weight may differ, the coating process is definitely different.
I don't know about Certified Paint, but I can attest that latex paint makes the fabric more like a fine leather than fabric. When I have had to cut the ceconite it's no easy task.
Hey, watch your language, guys! This is a family site! No more posting sailor proposals and talk of ripping one's polyester off with the greatest of ease. Save that stuff for when you're up on the trapeze...
Guy on FB^2 (Fly Baby Facebook Page) is using Oratex, and is posting pictures of the covering process. Looks reeeaallllll nice.
Ron Wanttaja
Here is a link to my first engine start of my Oratex covered Tailwind. I will try to post better pictures so you can get a better look at the fabric. Thought it might be of interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwZn9x27GXU
Keith
Yes I would fly with a tear in the Oratex, matter of fact I have done that up to 140knots. Was part of my own testing the product. Oratex has two products, the 600 for Ultralights and the 6000 for everything else. The 6000 is the strongest fabric on the market and the toughest by far. The Jim Pfarr's Belite used the 600 Ultralight material. The "tear continuation forces" are plenty high enough. Matter of fact, Higher than comparative Ceconite. Don't you think that all the use Oratex has seen in the last 14 years in over 300 planes would have revealed if there would be such a thing as easy Tear Continuation??? We had a guy with a Ultralight be attacked by an EAGLE !!! and the Eagle tore into the fabric in flight and even that did not get bigger etc... Its all on You-Tube. Oratex is as close to bulletproof as Aircraft Fabric can get. Ask the customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
Bushflying-wise its so popular because of all that.
See here more Oratex in action: That is Racenumber 26, of the RedBull AirRaces, with Oratex6000 on it, Juan Velarde from Spain.
Attachment 5428Attachment 5429
Attachment 5425Attachment 5426Attachment 5427
The "hard off field landing" ended in trees and totally destroyed one wing and twisted the fuselage into a pretzel, ripped one gear off; look at the pictures!!! Oratex does not fail from Hard Landings... Ask the builder what he is using on the rebuild please.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
I'm just catching up. Please consider that I am using the Oratex 600 lightweight fabric on my Belite Ultracub, and as such it should be compared to 1.7 ounce Ceconite. An aircraft covered with Oratex 6000 is dang near bulletproof as shown in the videos Lars has posted of attempts to rip through the fabric with a hammer. I put some sample Oratex 600 and Oratex 6000 on a couple 1ft x 1ft frames to learn how to apply the material, then later did my own tests for destruction. To this day I have not been able to punch through the 6000 fabric, but one good hard punch with my fist went through the 600. Try that with the Dacron used for MX ultralights, I suspect you'll get the same results.
I fully intend to cover my plane with Oratex again, I'm thoroughly sold (and this time I will not be painting the fabric to save weight).
My comment was not about how tough the stuff is. But about how easy it tears once torn. But the key word is "easy". I have never seen this stuff in person so I had to ask. If it offends anyone that I did ask. To bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoundrel
Tony Sweet
Well, I'd consider that a very hard landing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Gleitsmann
:)
Hi Tony, I would really like to send you some samples so you can see it for yourself and "play with it". The Material is so very different that it is hard to believe without having it in your hand, that is no question. I also be glad to talk. Feel free to call me at 907 229 6792 anytime. I thought you had been at Jim's wreck and looked at it. Let us show you the Oratex. Best Regards from Alaska, LarsQuote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw