I hope this is not a stupid question:
Would you use a transponder in say an ultralight, or a small eab?
When is it ones says I do not need a transponder or I believe I need a transponder?
Again I hope this is not a stupid question.
H.A.S.
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I hope this is not a stupid question:
Would you use a transponder in say an ultralight, or a small eab?
When is it ones says I do not need a transponder or I believe I need a transponder?
Again I hope this is not a stupid question.
H.A.S.
Depends on where you plan to fly. Needed if you plan to fly in A,B,C or D airspace and your aircraft has (or ever had) mechanically generated electricity.
Lets say your airfield is right on the edge of class c airspace.
I wouldn't install one unless I just had money burning a hole in my pocket. Even then I could find other things to buy.
Per 91.130 regs, ATC may authorize a deviation from the transponder requirement on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate. That's the way I have done it with non-transponder aircraft and I have based a non-transponder aircraft at Class C airport for several yrs.
I will suggest that a lot depends on the type of traffic that motors through the airpace that you like to operate in. If you stay low and are not near a large municipal airport that has multiple airlines operating in and out, you likely do not need a transponder. But if your home field is close to someplace that has a lot of jets coming and going, it is likely to your advantage to carry one.
An example of where a transponder might help is Bradley International near Hartford CT. The hang gliders and ultralights fly off Talcott Mountain just west of the field. The pilots who really soar high carry radios and talk to Bradley Approach so that they don't get close encounters with the airline traffic. Not sure if they are using transponders. But there is a famous incident from a good soaring day where an airline guy was on the approach and Bradley called a hang glider as traffic. The airline pilot gave a cursory reply that the controller must have interpreted as a brush off, don't bother me response. The controller next said "SIR, HE IS ABOVE YOU!" and I can only guess that upon hearing that exclamation some eyes snapped away from the airliner's instrument panel and started looking out the windshield. I wonder what a Boeing looks like to a hang glider pilot looking down?
So you might find a way to speak with the staff at the nearest Control Tower facility, or the Procedures Specialist at the nearest Approach control facility about the airspace that you fly most in. In my experience those folks are happy to talk to you. Use their views on how they route fast movers and just general traffic as part of your decision.
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS
Wes I would like to thank you for this imput. If you would look at a sectional for the St.Louis area. I can not remember what that sectional is called, but look at 3IS5 Holmes field. Class C airspace starts as soon as you step off the runway into the field to the north. That is class C airspace.
At Capitol Airport we had the F16 Fighter Wing. They where moved and because of this someone else took over that space they had. Now they maintance big airplane their. Last summer I saw some of the biggest airplanes I have ever seen flying into capitol. Also one evening off to my north, maybe one mile, at my alt, was one big airplane. Not sure what it was but she was big. Look at the sectional for 3IS5 and capitol airport.
Now fast forward to today. I happened to purchase a package from a man and in that package was some very nice like new equipment. One of the things in this box was a Narco TSO AT150 Transponder with AR850 encoder and wiring harness.
I was wondering should I use this in my Airplane or should I sell this equipment or trade it.
H.Anthony Sweet
I've been into KSPI a number of times. Your airport is under the outer edge ring of the SPI CCA. The floor of the CCA airspace above your airport is 1400' MSL, so no, stepping off the N. end of the field doesn't put you in Class C airspace because Class C doesn't extend to the ground there.
You can take off, land and fly all around Holmes as long as you remain below 1400' MSL (~700AGL). That keeps you clear of Class C until you are within 5 miles of SPI. In addition to a transponder, you have to establish two-way communications with ATC before entering Class C.
Something you might want to plan for is transponder and altitude reporting equipment must be tested and inspected within the preceding 24 months and found to comply with appendix F of Part 43. Might require an additional flight every 2 yrs to a place where the test can be performed.
Martymayes:
You are right that class c airspace starts at 1400 msl. That 1400 msl starts right at that field so you may not be able to step out into class c airspace from the ground but ATC sends airtraffic right over the top of holmes field. That class c airspace starts at that field but not at ground level, but I do not fly on the ground, at 1000' 400 feet is not alot of seperation.
I have had one airplane fly under me about 300', I was flying at 1000'. This airplane came from my 6 and scared the bajeezers out of me when they popped out in front from under me.
H.A.S.
500' of vertical separation is common - hemispheric rule and ATC assigned. I don't see how any SPI IFR traffic is going to be below 2000' 10 miles out.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
I understand that but see-and-avoid still rules and I'm not sure how a transponder is going to make any difference. A transponder will only help if you are in contact with ATC and receiving radar advisories. Even then, that's a workload permitting service. If ATC has higher priorities, they will NOT call out potential traffic.Quote:
I have had one airplane fly under me about 300', I was flying at 1000'. This airplane came from my 6 and scared the bajeezers out of me when they popped out in front from under me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
That is kinda what I thought. I will probably trade this equipment to someone for something else.
Thanks to everyone for the info.
H.A.S.
A couple of points.
First, my avionics tech makes house calls. He actually services customers at a number of airports. So if you ask around, you might find a tech who operates in the same way near you. No need to fly far away for biennial transponder checks. And they cost about $125 for a VFR check here.
Second, the transponder makes you visible to ATC. The point about all those other aircraft is that THEY are headed into the Class C and so they are getting advisories around you. That protects you. I will note that ATC is obligated to point you out to them. Especially to TCAS equipped aircraft. If TCAS goes off in an airline cockpit and the traffic that the TCAS is alerting about has not been previously been pointed out by ATC, its a controller error and involves paperwork and unhappiness at the ATC facility. So if you make yourself radar visible, folks, especially the big ones, will get advisories about you and vectors away. This is all to your advantage even if you never talk to ATC on the radio yourself.
The only issue in a very small aircraft is supplying power to the transponder. If you can do that, and you have one to install, it is probably to your advantage to do so for the reasons above.
I will also note that since most of the traffic that goes into Class C is transponder equipped, the new gizmos like the Zaon seem to help show traffic around, especially on hazy days and in directions that you don't look a lot, like 6 O'Clock.
On the other hand, there are warbird surplus dealers out there that are happy to sell you a rear view mirror built for a WW II fighter or newer jet. They work just as well for you and maybe add some cool factor to your cockpit. And a long long time ago, far far away, a bad friend came screaming in on my six expecting to give me a fright. When I pulled vertical and rolled into him he was really really shocked. His post flight comment was "NO ONE watches their six....".
Fly safe,
Wes
N78PS
Wes once again I can not thank you enough for your advice. I want ATC to see me, like you said even if I do not talk to them.
When people say stay alert and watch for traffic, I can only do so much. Short of flying S patterns everywhere every few mins I have no idea how to watch my six. My plane is built like a razzer back, if I could turn my head around all I am seeing is the "turtle deck", I think thats what its called, of the fuselage.
I did pick me up a traffic alert system along with this transponder and encoder. As for power, I do have an on board battery but no generator or charging system. My little 1/2 vw has a starter but no charging system.
Couple options here.
1. genn-i-pod, charging problem solved.
2. Lipo Battery of around 10,000 Mil amp 14.5 Volt
Negitive on the Genn-i-pod, weight, adding up all the equipment this would be the heaviest way to go.
Lipo is the least heavy way to go. Make it where I remove this lipo after every flight.
I have never been in nor seen the inside of a controll tower. I have no idea what they see or whom they see. I know I want them to see me. If I was still located about 15 miles from here it would not be as much of a problem. Stay under 1400 or around 1000' and you are good to go. Here on the edge of class c airspace, right on the edge its a bigger problem. Or could be.
Now if I use a transponder, I know it takes alot to get setup, but I believe it will be worth it, if it can be done. Do I need to talk to ATC to use this transponder or does one just turn it on. Let it warm up or wake up then go fly?
H.A.S.
P.S. To reduce even more weight I am removing all old style steam gauges and installing an EIS system from Grands rapid tech. This will also be powered by the Lipo. For redundent power I could hook two of these lipos to this system.
You do not have to talk to ATC at all. Turn on the transponder, set it to code 1200. Fly.
The sailplane guys run off batteries. They use their transponders to soar very high. I have friends who ride mountain lift to 20,000'. You have to manage your battery power. A volt meter is probably needed so that you turn off the transponder when the battery gets tired.
The not having ever visited a tower or other ATC facility is a curable condition. Approach control facilities run tours for groups of pilots and there is no reason that you can't sign up. If you call your local FAA Flight Standards District Office, and ask about safety programs, they will be thrilled to talk to you and start filling your e-mail in box with invitations to programs.
As for rear view mirrors, if you have overhead glass, several famous fighters had external overhead mirrors. Look up photos of early Spitfires for instance.
Fly safe,
Wes
N78PS
Wes: Do I need the encoder? or are they a par, meaning you must use one if you use the other?
Next question, does anyone know someone whom can get this unit up and running?
I was going to mount this myself then have someone else calabrate this unit.
Tomorrow I will be contacting my local FSDO and setting up this meeting.
I will check out some rear view mirrors that would be cool to have one from an old fighter.
Thanks again for this advice.
H.A.S.
I will suggest that you want the encoder if it is not too much hassle. It helps out the folks looking for you as traffic.
To getting it up and running you will want the installation drawing for the transponder and encoder. If the drawing for your unit is not on the internet somewhere, my experience is that the avionics folks are happy to give you a copy if you ask. The wiring is not that hard. You will be best served by talking to your friendly traveling radio tech before you power it up for the first time as to how they want to check it. You might set up the wiring of the mounting tray(s) on your bench, check the correct wiring, give your tech a chance to look your work over, and then bolt it into the airplane and have the VFR check done. It is not rocket science.
If you call the FSDO, ask for the FAA Aviation Safety Inspector who leads the local FAAST Team (FAA Safety Team). In fact, looking at the internet, you can go to the web site http://www.faasafety.gov/ and sign up for notifications of safety seminars that will likely include meeting the ATC folks that can answer your questions. Looking at the web site, a telephone call to the FSDO may not be needed at all.
There is a lot of info out there. The challenge is finding where to start and who to talk to. Better to have too much info than not enough. You can pick and choose to ignore the info that does not apply to you. And you may not always enjoy working with our FAA folks, but having info you know what to expect and how to achieve an relationship that benefits you the most. (We're not happy until you're not happy...).
Fly safe,
Wes
N78PS
Wes again you come through:
The man whom sent me all this equipment sent me the wiring harness that all this hooks to. He had it mounted in his airplane and upgraded his panel. He gave me everything to make it a plug and play unit. He said all I need to do is hook up grounds and power supply.
Thanks again Wes.
H.A.S.
N8053H
Well, lets review the AIM and see what we can come up with: Para 5-5-8 says: "When meteorological conditions permit, regardless of type of flight plan or whether or not under control of a radar facility, the pilot is responsible to see and avoid other traffic, terrain, or obstacles."Quote:
Second, the transponder makes you visible to ATC. The point about all those other aircraft is that THEY are headed into the Class C and so they are getting advisories around you. That protects you. I will note that ATC is obligated to point you out to them. Especially to TCAS equipped aircraft. If TCAS goes off in an airline cockpit and the traffic that the TCAS is alerting about has not been previously been pointed out by ATC, its a controller error and involves paperwork and unhappiness at the ATC facility. So if you make yourself radar visible, folks, especially the big ones, will get advisories about you and vectors away. This is all to your advantage even if you never talk to ATC on the radio yourself.
Section b) says a controller "Provides radar traffic information to radar identified aircraft operating outside positive control airspace on a workload permitting basis" The controller is only 'obligated' to provide traffic information in positive controlled airspace.
Continuing on to 5-5-10, the pilot "Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons."
The pilot of a TCAS equipped aircraft is authorized to deviate from an ATC clearance as necessary to follow the commands of a TCAS RA. I am not aware of any paperwork on ATC's part but I can find out in a few minutes. FWIW, most TCAS RA's I have encountered occurred while under ATC control.
Now for reality: The most likey type traffic H.A.S. will encounter is not traffic flying to/from the primary class C airport. It will be pilots trying to skirt the Class C without a transponder, or those not comfortable talking to ATC. In the latter, you'll have two aircraft on a 1200 code with the controller unable to do anything because neither have been radar identified.
H.A.S. - You might want to review what a TIS system can and can't do. I don't think it will provide any value to your type flying.
Essentially, you have a ~320# airplane which willl incur a substantial wt. penalty once all this gear and power source (batteries) are installed. Performance suffers, the higher gross wt means structural safety margins are compromised and there is very little if any collision avoidance benefit.
But, it is a free country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
Martymayes some very good info. As for wieght issue's. I am removing all gauges in favor of an EIS. from Grands Rapids Tech. If you have not seen one of these they weigh in at maybe 1 lbs with wiring and sensors. I already do have a battery but if I use lipo's by the time its said and done I will have lost some weight and not added. Everything I do is either in the name of saftey or wieght.
Now I am not doing these mods for me. I am trying to be respectfull of others whom I must share this airspace with. But with how you explained this I also now know there are others whom fly more GA style airplanes "150's, 172" whom also fly like me with no radio contact with ATC.
Here is what I have learned so far.
The best way to avoid traffic is with, eye's outside of cockpit, like we are taught by our CFI. But you can not see everything and niether can the other pilot's, everyone has blind spots.
The number one or fist piece of equipment is a radio.
If I every plan a long X-Country this transponder equipment might be of use, local flying not so much.
You do not have to have a transponder to fly within class c airspace, you must talk with ATC first and get aproval.
Using a transponder does not mean you must talk with ATC.
Setting up or having your transponder certified is not as big an issiue as some think, should not cost hundreds to have done.
Thanks for all the imput on this subject, maybe someone else with get something from it. Since I received this equipment for a really good deal I might just outfit my airplane with this equipment. The next owner might really like it setup this way.
H.A.S.
It seems to me that no transponder is required for entry into class d airspace...only two way communications, unless the airport is specifically listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of FAR 91.215. If I am incorrect please point me to the FAR that straightens me out. Thanks
Lets go a few steps further....
Remember your transponder requires an antenna. For your stick and fabric airplane, the antenna will likely require a ground plane. Installing the antenna might require more effort than you are allowing for. Second, once installed, the transponder and encoder have to comply with regulatory performance requirements. If it doesn't, there might be some additional expense to get things up to spec. It's like taking a plane in for an annual. The inspection itself is not much $$$ but if the inspector finds any discrepancies, it gets more expensive. But we'll say your optimism pays off and there are no snags getting things installed, once up operating routine checks should not be an issue. Add $75/yr to your operating costs and you're covered.Quote:
Setting up or having your transponder certified is not as big an issiue as some think, should not cost hundreds to have done.
If I had intentions of upgrading to a more capable aircraft one day, I'd use the extra cash to save for that. Avionics upgrades rarely return more than 1/3 on investment. IOW's $1000 of avionics upgrades adds about $300 to the value of the aircraft. Install if for your own entertainment cause you won't get your money back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
Marty thanks again for this info. My panel would be a lot cleaner with just an EIS and gps. I really do not care about getting my money back from this unit, but it might make the plane easier to sell.
You guys are making this a lot harder than it has to be. 1600vw already has the gear in hand.
The transponder and encoder and wiring should weight less than 5 lbs. and take less that 2A at 14V. You can use a modern light weight battery.
Because transponders run in the 1Ghz range, the antennas are small. Aircraft Spruce sells a little dipole antenna that is a total of 6" high. Look at https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...?clickkey=4083
I think that 1600vw can figure out the mechanics of the installation and decide whether it is worthwhile. And it is not a lifetime commitment. The gear can always be unbolted and sold.
I will comment on the quotes from the AIM. The AIM provides the FAA view of best practices for pilots. In fact, the ATC folks are essentially a different FAA and work from a different set of rules in the controllers handbook. The two documents do not complement each other. So what ATC really does and the expectations set in the AIM do not necessarily match. Ask a controller about the AIM and you might get a blank stare. In fact, while you get advisories as their workload allows, the IFR guys get advisories all of the time, and the TCAS equipped IFR heavies absolutely get advisories full time. Its a non-trivial deal for an IFR heavy to have the TCAS go off on traffic that an advisory was not provided for. That is not in the AIM. Go take a peek into the world of the controllers.
So I practice acro in the same area day in and day out. Approach once upon a time tried sending traffic over me, a little above my top practice altitude. One heavy was overhead when I pulled to the vertical for a hammerhead and after that surprise TCAS alarm approach started vectoring traffic to give my practice area a wide berth and verbalized lots of advisories about me. TCAS sees a closure rate and vector and does not know that I will be kicking the rudder to head back vertical down. I listen only as advisories are worthless unless you are in stable level cruise flight. With the radar painting me only every 10 secs or so, there is no way that the controller has any idea whether I am upright, inverted, on a vertical line, or doing a rolling turn. So attempting to call traffic at 2 o'clock is just a waste of time. After a few years of this I hear myself called to other pilots as "you have traffic at 11 o'clock, appears to be maneuvering between 6000' and 2500', probably aerobatic." Works for me. I can see the Boeings coming a long way off.
So looking at the sectional chart online, it looks like 1600vw's concern might come from V67 going almost right overhead his airport. I can only surmise that some traffic gets vectored to the ILS RWY 31 approach. That said, the approach chart says that you arrive at the final approach fix somewhere over 2000'. So while a Boeing or Airbus looks big, it should be in the Class C airspace and not a hazard to flying right around Holmes.
Do the airports around there use 1000' AGL patterns? Seems pretty rude and maybe unsafe for folks to be zooming through the traffic pattern of Holmes field trying to get around the Class C. I find it hard to believe that folks circumnavigating that Class C are a significant hazard. But then I live 1000 miles away...
Fly safe,
Wes
N78PS
Wes I really do like the way you think. Thanks once again.
When I looked over that one evening and saw that big airplane over lake springfield which is just maybe 1 mile from me, it looked huge and maybe a little above me. As hard as he was banking I believe he saw me but was planing on flying where I was or close to it. When I looked over thats when I saw him make a really step turn to the north. before the turn he was heading right at me. In a litle airplane weighing at most 500 lbs and moving 70mph this was a site to see. I felt like a mouse compaired to that airliner Heavy.
We have a hellipad here at holmes and a refueling station for those helli's. They do try and watch for me but we all know if midairs are going to acure its more then likely it will happen between a low wing and hellicopter. These helli's come from not only our base but other Air-e-vac bases to refuel.
You would be shocked to see how many times I have had an airplane buzz right over the top of my hangar maybe at 1000' or a little higher. Now those crops dusters buzz over at 300-500'. That day this crop duster flew under me, I had "two" buzz my hangar as I was pushing my plane out and doing my preflight. I just thought to myself, I hope they stay clear once I am up airborn. It was a couple days later I had one buzz under me.
Wes yes that Vectors airways concerns me, you are right.
H.A.S.
More likey he was being vectored for an approach and probably a lot further away than it looked. I seriously doubt they saw you and were taking evasive action.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
That would be the guys avoiding SPI Class CQuote:
You would be shocked to see how many times I have had an airplane buzz right over the top of my hangar maybe at 1000' or a little higher.
Unfortunately, having a transponder won't change that, or the one above.Quote:
Now those crops dusters buzz over at 300-500'. That day this crop duster flew under me, I had "two" buzz my hangar as I was pushing my plane out and doing my preflight. I just thought to myself, I hope they stay clear once I am up airborn. It was a couple days later I had one buzz under me.
So all you have to do is avoid the victor airway. The best collision avoidance is to stay clear of areas where planes congregate.Quote:
Wes yes that Vectors airways concerns me, you are right.