Was thinking the exact same thing, Jim. Slippery slope indeed.
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After reading the policy information, it appears that this is going to include ANY EAA event that a kid may attend, including regular meetings. Guess that means a 17 year old that is a Chapter member will now have to have a signed permission slip to attend a meeting and there will have to be multiple trained and vetted members there for them to be allowed to attend. This is looking to be much worse than it started out to be. I am afraid that if this is implemented as it stands, we are going to kill off any youth involvement in the EAA.
There are numerous other youth enrichment programs in this country that now require volunteers to be vetted and those seem to be moving forward despite the various required background checks for those that volunteer and/or participate. If the same thing is going to "kill off any youth involvement" in the EAA, what does that say about it's volunteers????
That they are not sheep who accept "security theater"?
According to this policy we will have to cancel our ground school classes for teens. Cancel our YE rally's, definitely no single child plane rides.
As for the background checks, since they require your SSN, this allows the personnel at the checking agency to gather all kinds of financial information, which they can then use in other databases. Who's watching AmericaCheck? What safeguards? The chapter presidents and coordinators will be able to see vetted members this allows them into the secure servers, does it not? How long before they get hacked, after all we all know pilots are a bunch of rich guys.
The requirements on volunteers is ridiculous.
The record keeping is not only ridiculous it would be an invasion of the parents privacy. Who keeps these records, how are they kept, where are they kept? Too many questions.
If EAA wants to do a background check sans the SSN, go for it.
If the EAA requires a vetted member to supervise fine. I have no problems with that. But to require all volunteers and even parents? No way.
BTW our chapter flew over 120 youngsters last year alone. Many of which came in school groups such as the ROTC and aviation clubs. We also flew kids in a university sponsored day camp. We also fly many "at risk" kids who may never get a chance again. So sad, we really liked doing what we were doing but under these guidelines it is impossible.
Please read the policy as it has been put forth. It is not limited to just anything YE. It includes Chapter meetings. We have a couple of teenagers that attend our meetings and are heavily involved in the Chapter. By this policy, we will now have to have multiple members go thru this process, and make sure that enough of them are at every meeting so that if one of the teenagers comes and does not have his parent with him at the meeting, he can attend. Do we bar a Chapter member, whom happens to be a teenager, because his parent isn't there and we don't have the minimum number of vetted YE people there? How does that look to any visitors that we might have, How is that going to affect that teenager, that just proved to the feds that he is qualified as a pilot, but because we have changed our policy, he can't come to the meetings of an organization that had been mentoring and encouraging him, that he also is a member of?
I can understand part of the new policy, but I think it has not been thought out very well and will induce some unintended consequences that are going to do more harm than good.
I have.
You are no doubt right about that because there is always a learning curve. But you can bet it's not going away.Quote:
I can understand part of the new policy, but I think it has not been thought out very well and will induce some unintended consequences that are going to do more harm than good.
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It says we are old enough not to put up with this stupid crap.
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That they are not sheep who accept "security theater"?
let me know how that works out for ya......Quote:
It says that they are tired of all of the politically correct BS !
That isn't the problem. Whoever drew this up and the heads at EAA who approved it are not living in the real world. The plan as presented has 1. privacy concerns to the EAA members as well as to the child and parents and 2 is unworkable, impracticable. Now if the EAA wanted to really do a good job they would have contacted the chapter coordinators first and worked with them on a workable plan and addressed concerns BEFORE announcing the plan.
Keep in mind we don't work for the EAA, are not compensated in any way and volunteer our time, money and aircraft to better aviation and the EAA. Without membership they will go away.
I was told last year that the YE credits may be going away after 2015. The cost was too great, well now I can see why. How much is this costing the EAA?
I would like to clarify a few things for everyone without interfering with your dialogue. EAA believes in letting our membership communicate freely, as many of you have here.
First, I would like to help you understand that this is not a movement initiated by Brian or Michelle or anyone else in the Young Eagles program. Some folks have been pretty mean to these two individuals who have served the YE program for many years now. These folks are the messengers and are here to help us all work through the transition this new policy brings.
There have been incidents in the past three years where YE pilots have been accused of illegal activities regarding youth outside of the program. While not directly linked to the program this has highlighted the fact that EAA has not kept step with the current practices of vetting people who have contact with children. The need for a youth protection policy became an obvious need and was not driven by any single factor, lawyer, or insurance company.
The policy is not intended to “kill” anything. It is intended to keep kids safe and to keep our programs alive and thriving for another 63 years.
EAA volunteers are the highest quality volunteers anywhere, and we have no suspicions that any of you have anything but positive intentions. The policy helps us ensure that everyone out there who is not as familiar with us understands we take safety of our youth as seriously as every other organization.
The policy does cover all EAA chapters, EAA activities in Oshkosh at the HQ and during AirVenture.
Background checks are tools used to assist youth protection programs in many many youth serving activities. They are not effective to prevent someone with no record from harming someone, but they are a tool used as a first line deterrent to a small number of very dangerous people from being involved with children.
AmericanChecked is our third party vendor for the background checks. They provide a secure portal, and have a variety of security procedures and processes in place. More information on them is available in the FAQ page. http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-e...FEADB7C10&_z=z
The background check we are getting covers these items: (this is taken from our agreement with them)
Baseline Background Check $5.00/Person
· Nationwide Criminal Database
· Multi-State Sex and Violent Offenders Report
· Social Security Number Verification
· Address Locator Report
· Wanted Persons Security Screen
The sign off at the end of the background check is telling you that this company (and all like it) collects information on every person in the US they can for their database and that the information is gleaned from a host of publicly available information. EAA is not running a credit check on you or looking to see any financial information at all.
Our policy and the training are designed to help all of us engage with youth appropriately and most if not all of the information there will be things you all find reasonable when looked at objectively. We view this as a living document and all involved with its development are open to feedback and expect to see the policies change with the times.
I hope that all of you consider that we do all of this for the kids, and that introducing them to aviation brings us all joy. I hope everyone will please continue to help our kids find that same joy!
First stop with the SSN on the checks and I think compliance will go up significantly.
Secondly revisit the plan rules where it applies to volunteers. It simply is not workable.
Third address situations where a second vetted volunteer is not practical or available, ie teaching ground school.
Review the volunteer requirements and supervision by vetted EAA members. If you need clarification I would be glad to call.
BTW yours is the first post that specifies what information is sought. If you read the disclosure information from EAA, and the vendor it is all encompassing.
Bret, there is zero reason for AmericaCheck to ask for our SSN number for the background check. It is an unnecessary piece of information for that exercise, but is an extremely sensitive piece of our information. THAT is the primary issue with the background check.
I've sent an email requesting information about EAA member spouses and how they will be vetted to assist in events. This has not been answered or addressed in any of the communications.
Moving further, as a member of the IAC, we are subject to EAA rules. We have a number of youth that will show up at contests from the local area. How is this supposed to be handled? In the interest of trying to grow our dwindling numbers, we try to promote IAC contests as a family event and put the kids to work as runners or other non-critical roles to keep them busy. Do we have to now stop that practice, thereby losing competitors since their families are not welcome?
And who, in the the IAC contest structure, is required to do this testing to allow youth at our events?
On the contrary, I see some of the reactions in this thread as not living in the real world. Other youth enrichment programs have been going forward with the similar requirements because it is the new real world standard. As the saying goes "change or die" and I'm pretty sure change will prevail.
Thank you Bret.
But understand that some of us have had enough. Count me out, on principle, of any activity that requires the background check.
I will continue to work to introduce young people to sport aviation, but will do so independently from the EAA.
BJC
Having literally grown up within the EAA community, I'm surprised this training and checking hasn't been implemented sooner. Imagine going to the local parking lot and having your child go for a ride in a Corvette or Motorcycle with a complete stranger for a half hour! EAA's high standards and reputation for ideals like Safety and Trust, are the things that ensure your cell phone will be there when you return from the shower at Oshkosh, etc...
Nobody's personal information, including finger prints are more "out there" than mine. I couldn't complete the training and submit the background check quick enough.
I'm Going Flying! :cool: :thumbsup:
Happy Landings..... Still!
Same here. And for the apologists accusing those of us who have issues and concerns with this new requirement as either 'having something to hide' or being unrealistic and basically providing a 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out' attitude, I hope your chapters don't have too many like you - explains why our sport and our organization is shrinking.
'Gimp
I think the social security number is a non-issue is a total red-herring, but to each their own. I totally understand the need for this type of vetting, although some of the rules are a bit much. I took the online course and submitted my information, and I MAY go flying. We will see how this affects participation by pilots/planes. At the last YE event where I flew about 10 kids (one at a time right seat in my mighty C-150), there was a line stretching half a block all day long. I think the final number flown was 150 or maybe more. Most were flown three at a time in four-seater airplanes. We need lots of pilots and planes to make this a success. If say 50 percent or more of the pilots/planes bail, the rest are going to be stuck with the burden, and maybe some kids will need to be turned away. I'm not willing to be the only one at the airport wearing out my airplane, flying from morning til night, giving rides in my plane to every kid in town that wants one. I need the full support of my fellow YE pilots/plane owners, as in the past, or I too will be forced out.
I'm amazed at how many YE pilots are so willing to just let this program die over this.
Brett, your post is not in jibe with reality. As has been pointed out, the site the EAA YE page directs you to is not "AmericanChecked.COM" nor does it appear to be secure. It is a site called 8F7.com which is anonymously registered and is protected by a security certificate not traceable to AmericanChecked.com. This may indeed be their site, but there is no way for us to tell. Your contractor is LYING to you. It is not SECURE if it is not verifiable.
Also Brett, the EAA portion of the site is BUSTED. I took the course but the thing errorred out after the final exam saying something about not being able to be saved. Now neither the class nor the background check are accessible to me. Both are stuck in some state called "PENDING." There is no help link or contact information that suggests what to do about this website failure.
Based on the content of the training we have become "mandated reporters" is this true? If so, specific information needs to be passed on regarding the reporting process.
jim
It looks to me like the 8F7.com web site is owned by Backchecked, LLC in Phoenix. Their web site says they sell their background checking services to other companies who then sell to the retail customer. It looks like AmericanChecked is just buying Backchecked services. Backchecked probably hides behind 8F7 so the retail customers can't see that they're dealing with a 3rd party. I'm wondering if this is all run on GoDaddy servers, since that's who has the private registration of the domain backchecked.com too.
I'll bet most retail customers have their HR people do the background check, and they don't care since it isn't their personal information. This is probably one of the few instances where thousands of people getting the check done are actually seeing the web site.
At the end of the day apparently some people need to be reminded that EAA, and by definition all of their programs (IAC, Warbirds of America, YE, etc.,), it all exists FOR and BECAUSE OF us, our dues money, our volunteerism, not the other way around.
I will continue to fly youngsters, but not under some poorly thought out, less well executed heavy-handed change to a program that has worked extremely well for 23 years.
We are VOLUNTEERS, not employees, we can do with our assets, time and gas money as we see fit.
Headquarters has demonstrated, again, why large bureaucracies are undeserving of blind trust.
'Gimp
Mark: You may think it's red herring or non issue, but I hope you never have to deal with identity theft, and it threatening your job. I've spent the last 16 years undoing the damage of having my identity and my wife's stolen 4 times now. Just when I thought we were done, we were notified by the OPM that not only was our information, but both our kids info was compromised because of the theft of information in my security clearance. I now get to start it all over again, but now for all four of us. My current clearance was held for additional investigation due to damaging information related to the last theft. If I had not been able to satisfy them, my clearance would have been disapproved, my job then gone and I would be prevented from working in my field. At my age, that would have financially destroyed me.
In the case of my Chapter, probably half the active members are now dealing with this information theft.
Ed,
I'm with you.
I just completed the training, for the same reasons as you. i.e. So that no one thinks I have anything to hide when I complain about the policy. (As for identity theft, I, too, am glad EAA is big enough to have the resources to compensate me if this causes my identity to be compromised, because they certainly will be doing so...) I've had plenty of background and security checks, as well.
But I'm not sure I'll be using it. I just hit 300 YE's, and that may end up being about it. This politically correct overreaction to a non-threat is indeed probably going to be the death knell for what has been a very rewarding program. I am not quite as paranoid as some folks apparently are, but I agree that treating all of us like we're criminals is just too much like what the government's doing to us all lately.
I'm not sure I'll go along with helping to perpetuate that.
We're not running a nursery school, we're offering children a free airplane ride. I can give rides anytime I care to without the EAA sanction. And I'll probably do that. I got my first ride at age 14 from someone having nothing to do with an EAA program, and I can continue to fulfill my promise to myself to return the favor now that I have an airplane of my own, without EAA's sanction. It's just a shame, since I think this just may break the camel's back for the (up-to-now) excellent YE program.
But I do hope you don't choose to give up your EAA position. You're doing waaay too good a job for the chapter to lose you. It's better for us all to stay engaged and work to fix what's wrong, isn't it?
Ron
(Still at the top of the Chapter 1414 Young Eagle count for now, I think, followed closely by you!)
Young Eagle parents (and the EAA) implicitly trust our flying skills as well as the aircraft we show up in for these flights. If this aspect of the program required additional scrutiny for the purposes of insurance I would not have been surprised.
But the "persona" of the FAA licensed pilot? One can only presume something really, really, really horrific happened on one of these intro flights around the pattern. We are being trusted with these children's lives and to return them safely back to the ground ... but not enough to spend 15 minutes alone with them at 1000 feet AGL? That level of mistrust does not sit well with me. I joined the EAA specifically to participate in YE flights; there is nothing more fulfilling than sharing the wonderment of flight and the opportunity it has brought many of us. That said, my membership is due for renewal at the end of this month and there will be one less member. I'll put my resources elsewhere.
Agreed, Mark. Hence the abject stupidity of the requirement, which has apparently touched a nerve among a very dedicated, generous, and cooperative group. Maybe YOU wouldn't fly kids outside such an event, but I certainly will. I did it before the YE program started, and I'll do it after it commits suicide. Yes, there certainly will be a falloff, which is why this dumb requirement has to be reversed.
Even in that case, I'll bet it has already permanently damaged one of the best things EAA has done in the last 25 years.
Ron
Those protecting themselves won't be "trashing the YE program." The overactive bureaucrats who imposed the requirement causing good folks to quit will be doing that. Don't blame those protecting themselves from a real threat, just because you don't understand or appreciate the threat.
Blame those who impose an unnecessarily invasive requirement. Remember who the enemy is.
EAA believes? Bret, we're EAA. You work for the membership.
The very definition of "Security Theater". Useless, but it makes everybody feel good.Quote:
The policy helps us ensure that everyone out there who is not as familiar with us understands we take safety of our youth as seriously as every other organization.
You said it.Quote:
Background checks...are not effective to prevent someone with no record from harming someone..
...and is apparently a sales organization who farms the actual checks out to a 4th party you didn't know about.Quote:
AmericanChecked is our third party vendor for the background checks....
My mistrust is WELL FOUNDED. The EAA has had continual problems with computer security and is clear that they are somewhat deficient in their understanding of the issues. And yes, yes having had problems with this in the past, it's going to take a little more than just some EAA reps ASSERTION that things are safe especially in light of evidence to the contrary. NOBODY at the EAA has made any attempt to assuage these fears and I doubt that the tiny minority of EAA Members who show up on this forum are going to determine their opinions on the YOUNG EAGLES program solely on what either YOU or I say.
It is the single best thing EAA has done in 25 years, by far and away. That is why this is angering so many of those of us who participate on one or more levels. I've worked events where 200+ kids get rides as a ground marshall, and have spent my time, my money and incurred wear and tear on my plane (or rentals) because I believe we need to get more kids interested in flying. But we now have fences around the airports, locks on hangar doors - it is bad enough before you add a new burden that can really only be interetpreted one way for far too many of us - no we need barb wire and a cone of silence around the kids lest one of us behave inappropriately - WHILE FLYING A PLANE FOR A SHORT TRIP AROUND THE PATTERN - EITHER WITH OTHER KIDS IN TH PLANE OR IN A TANDEM MILITARY TRAINER.
This just continues to make flying less fun and less worthy of sharing - the economic burden is already a barrier of entry to so many, let's make it better by cordoning off the airports and treating the guys who give so much as if they are one step away from becoming monsters.
Sorry for those who don't/won't try to understand but this is extremely aggravating for a whole host of reasons speaking for myself.
'Gimp
I am sorry to ask this, but has there been an "official" explanation as to why. Again I am arriving to the party late here. I for one keep my privacy rights very well guarded, but I do ( a small small portion of me at least) see a little ( very little) bit of reasoning.
Rick
As Aviators, we live Operational Risk Management. The Severity of a Risk, measured from green to yellow to red, is a product of the Impact of a Risk and its Probability. Headquarters, eg, the bureaucrati in EAA, not us the rank and file and reason for HQ and the association, has deemed the Risk of a Sexual Predator to be a Red Risk that has to be mitigated.
IM<HO, HQ is playing to some social current. The reality of the situation is that flying with any of us posses a more consequential event (death or serious injury) that has a much higher probability (I think there hav been two YE fatalities).
We are not the Scouts or CAP with extended overnight or secluded unchaperoned time with kids.
i am perfectly happy to declare to the parent of a potential YE copilot that I have not been vetted by the EAA Secret Police, and let them make an informed decision about placing their progeny in my airplane. I'd even wear a Scarlet T shirt with that notice on it.
Members of EAA are respected by the community because of the strength of their character and their actions, not the paper held by nameless bureacrati in Wisconsin.
Ted
I have it from a reliable source that as of today, approximately 1,200 pilots have taken the training and submitted their info for the background check. That includes me. There are about 5,000 YE pilots nationwide, so that's about one-fifth that are complying. I hope that EAA does not back down, and holds its ground, and I hope that the YE program survives by bringing aboard a new crop of volunteers, who are willing to submit this simple requirement, and who will replace the quitters.
Brian and Michelle signed the letter to me. They instituted the policy by signing this letter. They may have thought they didn't have a choice, but they will lose their job if there is no longer a Young Eagles program. Perhaps they should have involved more people in the Young Eagles program before they issued this letter. They should have been better prepared.
I hate it that people have been mean to them, but they did not have a good answer for me when I called them. Brian did listen and was professional during my whole call.
Ever had your information stolen and used? If not, then you don't really know why it is an issue.
I am willing to fly kids all day long.... I am not willing to trust the EAA with my data. I guess since you are not willing to fly your plane and I am... That I care more about kids in aviation than you.