This will be a good idea to communicate the serious concern prior to next year's event !
An nearly everybody will be EAA Member flying in and therefor the EAA have those addresses !
Great idea !
Printable View
That's a pretty good idea. More proactive than expecting people to read a NOTAM on their own.
IIRC, there are ~15,000 airplanes on the field during the show. That's only $7,500 in postage, plus paying for the people or machines who stuff the envelopes.
Ron Wanttaja
I wonder what the cost would be for a mass e-mailing instead?
IF this is a 'real' concern for all those flying in, and only judging by the previous NINE pages of comments by folks it seems to be, doing something new and positive in nature is perhaps better than EAA doing nothing beyond what they have done in the past?
I make NO claim to having all the answers and my opinions are worth exactly what you paid to read them - lol
$7500 postage plus $x for handling is pocket lint for EAA. They have Millions.
Plus, they do a dozen mailings a year of Sport Aviation.
Why not create a required online course like they have for the DC SFRA? OSH is a helluva more complex and dynamic. Get Wings credit for doing it.
ted
Not to mention countless others asking for money. You'd think a postcard or somethign regarding Airventure wouldn't be a drain in resources.
Online course is a great idea -- in fact, wasn't there a webinar already done? I could be wrong. Don't know how you'd make it "required" though. Heck, reading the NOTAM is required, and apparently enough people don't do that.
Yes, I know that... but I'm not clear on how you'd enforce that with a huge influx of airplanes, all operating effectively NORDO, converging on Oshkosh.
My goodness....you can get a booklet with the procedure, pictures and radio frequencies. How much more does anyone need? If there is a "glitch in the system" it needs to be fixed but I don't see where making the system more complicated is of any benefit. Weather can be a factor that pilots and controllers have to deal with at times. Some times you need to sit on the ground and wait for it to clear....been there and done that.
Further, there have been youtube videos for what to expect out there for a long time.
The problem is people who don't bother to research before the flight. One point of particular confusion is while people get the part about Ripon to Fisk, they fail to brief the transitions to the Runways and end up going all over the place. They put nice big arrows on the railroad tracks in recent years, perhaps some of the Fisk Ave or whatever the road that takes you to 36 might help.
I was thinking if EAA wants more land to contain all the airplanes by 2020 perhaps that 2400 ft. grass emergency field (depicted on NOTAM near Fisk) could be acquired. It could be bought or leased something like the Seaplane Base, which is used the week of Airventure only.
Of course, another farm might be a better location. But the basic idea is to get a grass base for slow Light Sport pilots, which may not be using radios. Actually, most would have radios for CTAF, similar to the Seaplane Base. But a radio should not be required, same as Seaplane Base.
I like CTAF self announce better than the apparently blind unannounced procedure to Fisk. Pilots can self separate with CTAF. The pattern altitude should be 60kt or less at 300 agl, maybe shared with the current ultralights approach path, I think.
With regard to keeping track of who flew what on the Fisk, or any other future approach, by 2020 everyone will have ADS-B out and then ATC will know who flew and did what when. Not that I am advocating playing police state with AirVenture arrivals, but it is part and parcel of the ADS-B technology.
With regard to using the SFRA as an example, I don’t think we want people deviating from the approach procedure to be intercepted by F-16’s. It would be neat to watch, but not exactly welcoming.
People flew around the lake for 2 1/2 hours because they just HAD to get into OSH. But they didn’t. If they had diverted to Fond du Lac or Appleton they would have arrived at the front gate on the bus just as early. Not ideal, but better than the risk and expense they imposed on themselves.
EAA should do a better job of publicizing the options if it’s impossible or unsafe to get into OSH. Perhaps an article or even a webinar. Accurate information on facilities and transportation, invitations from the pleasant, helpful people at Appleton (and probably Fond du Lac too), much more relevant information than just what’s in the NOTAM. Perhaps also lists and brief descriptions of facilities at other outlying airports such as Wisconsin Dells, where I refueled this year.
Mike E
I've flown commercial in to Appleton twice. Easy peasy. The first time I went to Oshkosh (with Paul Bertorelli) we landed at Fond du Lac. There's lots of other fields around too. The cubby's have their own little flyin at New Holstein. I got stuck up at Brennand field (about 5 miles away in Neenah) one year when the Malibu crashed on 27. We had gone up their to take showers and I finally gave up on getting in before the airshow and had someone drive up and get me.
Do you really think so? I don't guess that more than 1/3 of the GA fleet will be equipped by 2020, if ever. It isn't required for the vast majority of the airspace in the US. This is what concerns me about EAA making ADS-B part of the price of admission to use the arrival in MVFR conditions. I fear that will keep more airplanes away, especially the Antique/ Classic crowd.
I don't think that will help. As it is now, they have you turn your xpndr to standby once you get close. Since I'm still building, I don't yet have ADS-B out, so I don't know if that system operates differently. I doubt it, since there are so many solutions that piggy back on your existing Mode C unit.
If any pilots are staring at the ADS-B panel instead of see and be seen or if ADS-B is required to attend then you can be sure I won't.
Feedback@eaa.org
perhaps we all ought to be perusing the proposed changes at https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/news-and-...ecommended-FAA
I read thel EAA proposal with concern. There are 3 points, first it claims to have consulted all or at least many points of view in the planning, I wonder about this. In some cases EAA officials like Mac have written about the Fisk arrival when actually they fly into Oshkosh on an ifr clearance and and a different route. . I wonder how many of the last 30 years he or others in the same position have flown in via Fisk? There are some good folks in EAA offices , but often it feels as if there is a disconnect to the membership. I have never seen a survey by EAA of members on arrival suggestions, but then I have only flown in for 35 years by vfr arrival in different planes so may not be a good source. As for experts, I would give a lot of weight to those FAA people who are actually on the ground at Ripon, Fisk, though their objective may be different than pilots. Last point, now EAA is pushing to have ADS B as a requirement to fly in. It cost thousands of $$$ to fly into Osh every year, getting the planes ready, fuel, insurance, very high housing costs for week, rental car, and or taxis, food, rides in Tri motor or B-17, etc, Adding $$$ for an avionics device might discourage some, even me from coming. I know many are proud of any new device they have, like a lady with a new handbag, but Ive never needed ads to find Osh and don't relish spending $4000 to do so now. Finally, many pilots complain about how bad the arrival is, facts are that it has worked for decades and I cant even recall a collision on the arrival other than in the pattern. This year, the weather and its timing were the most intrusive, it may be better next time. We should be cautions to change a proven and known procedure.
As a NATCA member this post is so much BS I don’t even know where to begin. Why don’t you just come out and say you don’t like unions.
There are dues paying and non dues paying controllers who work OSH. Due to the current staffing crisis that has been growing over the past decade its harder to get certain controllers away from short staffed facilities to OSH.
Also there was never an invitation only. TOTAL BS. There is and always has been a volunteer bid.
Next time educate yourself before spreading stupid anti union lies.
Some of the other controllers who worked Oshkosh for years under the old system would strongly disagree with you.
Because, I don't. I'm not even anti-NATCA (other than this policy). That's your invention.Quote:
Why don’t you just come out and say you don’t like unions.
Which means nothing to what I said.Quote:
There are dues paying and non dues paying controllers who work OSH.
WHich again means nothing to what I said.Quote:
Due to the current staffing crisis that has been growing over the past decade its harder to get certain controllers away from short staffed facilities to OSH.
How long have you been a controller? Because you obviously haven't been around long enough to know that it indeed was an invitation-only event years ago (and yes under the PREVIOUS union).Quote:
Also there was never an invitation only. TOTAL BS. There is and always has been a volunteer bid.
I am plenty educated, and not anti-union. You are the one who seems to be mistaken. Why don't you ask someone who worked Oshkosh back in the 1990s before you start shouting profanity and other insults at others.Quote:
Next time educate yourself before spreading stupid anti union lies.
If you'd have bothered to READ the thread you were venting your spleen over, you'd find the very n ext post was from one of those controllers: http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?...ATCA#post73622
I have been a controller for 12 years now. Since I am involved with the planning of ATC of OSH each year I would say I am pretty educated on the sitation and have first hand knowledge of the ins and outs of ATC at OSH.
I love how you have to go back to the PATCO days to talk about invitation only. I mean nothing has changed at Airventure or ATC in 25 plus years.
If you would like I could share the traffic count data from the 1990s until last year. It would the steady rise of traffic so pointing out how OSH worked in the 1990s compared to today is comparing apples and oranges.
The poster you reference isn’t a current air traffic controller so again since he has not been involved in recent air traffic controlling and planning his opinions are an educated guess at best. I am sure he was an amazing controller but controller in 2019 is different than controlling in 1999.
You and or he have no idea the staffing issues we are facing. We have a personal problem because all the of veteran controllers with the experience kept getting selected. Now we don’t have the experience to replace the veterans because they are retiring in mass and the amount of veteran OSH controllers are limited. That doesn’t even take into account it’s hard to get some of these veteran controllers out of short staffed facilities.
Lastly I don’t recall shouting any insults at anyone. Do I take it personally when someone without direct knowledge of the situation is Monday morning armchair quarterbacking a situation you have no direct knowledge of, yes I do. Do I take it really personally when you attach my union. You’re dam right I do.
Feel free to come to the NATCA booth and tell the controllers working thousands of flights a day to their face they messed up Oshkosh.
IMO the ADSB out requirement is a good thing and should be required 100% of the time for normal procedures and an additional procedure established for non equipped. Controllers won't waste time with verifying aircraft (wag your wings, etc.), and it should cut down on those who don't follow procedures & those who cut in. If a controller sees a conflict he can address it directly by 'N" number much more quickly. Think about N12345, turn right immediately vs red Cessna turn right immediately and 20 red Cessnas start to turn.
Sure, except that a substantial percentage of the traffic arriving won't be ADS-B equipped, and I'd bet a fair number will be using anonymous mode with no tail number. Then there are the guys who will have theirs misconfigured with the WRONG tail number, shut off, etc.
It would be nice, but then it would be nice if people would read the NOTAM and fly like they had a clue. If they can't read and fly competently, what would make one think they can manage electronics any better?
I suppose since they are already long down the road going from an organization trying to make aviation affordable to one trying to separate pilots from their money and selling promotions to the big venders selling expensive kits and gagetry why not just make ADSB and a transponder mandatory, those of us flying and building the old fashion way can form our own organization to follow what the original EAA founders intended.
Has no one taken into account what the screen clutter is going to look like with all these N numbers grouped together on the screen is going to look like ????. It is one giant blob of targets on my screen already with no N numbers showing just a target. It is completely unusable from what I have seen. I had to turn off ADSB in just to see the underlying GPS map.
I remember on flight aware it was so cluttered they just put a picture of a shark on the arrival area to promote shark week on discovery
The logic would be for 2 procedures, one with ADSB out and one without it to hopefully 2 different runways. This is not meant for personal adsb use as our screens will be too cluttered and we should be looking outside. Mainly for controllers where the spacing is greater once past Fisk. It might even be an additional incentive to those non adsb folks if the required ADSB out procedure runs smoothly and the other group is chaotic.
Having 2 procedures is logical if they make the last week of July for those of us who don't have ADSB or whatever it is that we haven't needed for the last three decades, but now the FAA tells us we can't fly without. And the first week of Aug can be for all those who are up on the latest techno gadgetry. Maybe even have a contest for the 2nd group, the P/E award which is sort of like Price/ earnings in stocks, but in this case it is Price/electrodes. That is whoever has spent the most money on Garmin, Avadyne, Aspen Electronics, which by the way are from New Mexico, not Aspen., etc.
At the FAA cheerleading session last yea,r I asked them how many mid air collisions, there were that brought on this new demand, surely must be hundreds or at least dozens. Faa didn't have the statictics. and didn't seem to care, so I got them from the Nall aurvey at AOPA. Turns out last year reported was 5 midair's, fatal to 7 people. Is this to potentially save 7 people or more likely for ATC to get gen private aviation mostly out of the way for corporate jet traffic, not at Oshkosh per se but everywhere.
Option 1, no one will be looking inside their cockpit because it's way too cluttered--basically you seem to believe that people who have purchased ADSB are complete buttheads and don't have the common sense to look out the window when flying around hundreds of airplanes. Option 2 - your see and avoid crowd didn't do too well last year...REALITY is that ADSB is just a tool and the failings of last year were both Procedural (which ADSB helps) and pilots (not following the procedure and those who cheat by cutting in, etc, which again--ADSB helps..The loudest anti ADSB proponents are those who are still trying to rationalize the need NOT to spend money on something they disagree with. For those that have spent the money (and many of them don't agree with the "need" either), it wouldn't be such a bad thing to actually get some usefulness out of it via smoother procedures and increased safety. If you think you can't trust yourself and you're going to try and play controller while you're flying, you do have the option to turn off your ADSB in and just use the out.Let's face it, last year was a disaster and we can't stick our heads in the sand when there are viable alternatives out there.
Flybuddy, you write , " 'your see and avoid crowd didn' t do too well last year". I don't know of any accidents on the Ripon Fisk arrival last year, same as the year before. Do you have some actual factual reports that the rest of us dont? I mean on the approach, not at the airport in the pattern. And once your new technology alerts you that there are other airplanes around going to Osh, what do you expect or intend to do about it? Do you hope the other pilot will be intimidated by your image and just give up, or do you intend to look out the window and "see and avoid" other planes? Same as the last few decades. Does your idea of "viable alternatives" involve in some way restricting other pilots flying into Oshkosh?
I think I am at least as experienced as average EAA pilots having flown in since 1983 and in 4 different airplanes and 2 different arrivals, as well as flying in the show perhaps 20 years and I have 3 simple rules to follow of which the 2nd is to look out the window and avoid other planes. Maybe I'm lucky but it seems to have worked for 30 years and I don't have any of those gadgets in my panel.
And it is only my semi-educated guess, but like this year I think those of us with less techno cockpits are more likely to actually have a copy of the notam and actually follow it rather than what shortcuts Garmin or Avidyne says.
The fail last year was runway usage. On Sunday, the runways were used at ~50% of capacity with aircraft stacked on top of one another in the holds. This was a fail by the FAA/EAA to open the runways and land the *&$#!! aircraft. Sure the taxiways for 27 were toast. Land airplanes on 36 L and R, which were practically barren of aircraft, and taxi people to the N40 on 27 or via other means. You have 3 runways. There is no excuse to bog the whole thing down by marrying yourself to one runway with unusable taxiways.