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geosnooker2000
05-21-2020, 03:54 PM
Can someone take a look at this link (Piper for sale)
and tell me what this panel is lacking to qualify for IFR ops? I'm thinking of buying a plane to finish out my PPL, and I would like to get something that will take me through my Instrument rating.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=PIPER&model=CHEROKEE+180&listing_id=2381287&s-type=aircraft

Assume this plane was purchased - what would have to be added?
Thanks
George

FlyingRon
05-21-2020, 04:17 PM
Doesn't look like anything needs to be added for basic IFR training. I'm not sure I'd actually fly such a thing in IMC. You've got only 1 (ancient but passable) NAV radio so that will be challenging. The Apollo 920 GPS and the 295 aren't IFR.
And putting the Nav head over on the far side of the radio stack is likely to be annoying. Frankly, I'd ditch the 920, put the VSI back where it belongs and put the NAV indicator where the VSI is currently.
If I was serious about IFR, I'd ditch the docking station and put an IFR GPS there (ditching the POS comm radio if necessary). I'd absolutely insist on pitot heat (I can't see if this has it now).

On the other hand, Cherokee 180s are pretty nice flyers. This one seems set up pretty well as a VFR traveller and timebuilder.

geosnooker2000
05-21-2020, 10:02 PM
Doesn't look like anything needs to be added for basic IFR training. I'm not sure I'd actually fly such a thing in IMC. You've got only 1 (ancient but passable) NAV radio so that will be challenging. The Apollo 920 GPS and the 295 aren't IFR.
And putting the Nav head over on the far side of the radio stack is likely to be annoying. Frankly, I'd ditch the 920, put the VSI back where it belongs and put the NAV indicator where the VSI is currently.
If I was serious about IFR, I'd ditch the docking station and put an IFR GPS there (ditching the POS comm radio if necessary). I'd absolutely insist on pitot heat (I can't see if this has it now).

On the other hand, Cherokee 180s are pretty nice flyers. This one seems set up pretty well as a VFR traveller and timebuilder.

Regarding your comment about relocating the VSI, I've noticed 140s panel's are NOT in the traditional 6-pack layout. That bugs me. the 180s seem to be all over the place with instrument layout. I guess it depends on what year... I thought you needed (2) Two VORs? Is that not the case? I would definitely look to upgrade any 60s era radios. I would love to just go full glass, but am unsure of the total costs.
Thanks for the response!

dougbush
05-21-2020, 11:20 PM
91.205(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in 121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 80 degrees of pitch and 120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with 29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

Needs ADSB-out, too. (91.225)

FlyingRon
05-22-2020, 05:35 AM
It appears to have all those things (including the ADSB out). The 180 in question is old enough not to have additional restrictions in the POH (it doesn't even likely have a regulatory POH).

Yes, older planes typically don't have six packs, but it loos like this one did or was close before someone decided to use that hole for the (now ancient) GPS which I suspect gets largely unused with the 295 sitting right next to it.
I'd put the VSI back where it belongs. This will make training easier.

Like I said, for practical IFR, one ancient NAV COM and a pair of VFR GPSs (one old and the other ancient) is probably not the navigational capacity you'll find practical. I'd be leery flying in actual without pitot heat as well.

lnuss
05-22-2020, 06:44 AM
As Ron indicates, flying without pitot heat in actual conditions is chancy, at best. And in Tennessee you'll certainly have plenty of wet conditions in IFR to make the pitot heat very desirable indeed.

And keep in mind that changing out the avionics can involve a fair amount of down time, in addition to the expense, depending on a number of factors such as who's doing the work, parts availabilty and what work actually needs doing, since older aircraft often need more work to install newer avionics than newer aircraft do.

So yes, you could get your instrument rating in that aircraft, but it's best to get some actual instrument time during training, if possible (sometimes it's not, here in the mountain west), and I'd not do it without that pitot heat.

So sometimes a "bargain" isn't...

martymayes
05-22-2020, 10:20 PM
\Assume this plane was purchased - what would have to be added?
Does it have a current Appendix E check? If no, when was the last one?

FlyingRon
05-23-2020, 06:23 AM
Probably not, but that usually isn't a problem. Occasionally the altimeter is crap and needs to be replaced.

martymayes
05-24-2020, 06:53 AM
I would love to just go full glass, but am unsure of the total costs.

2 G5's, Garmin 375, ADSB and misc nic-knacks, plan on ~$20k

FlyingRon
05-24-2020, 07:00 AM
That still leaves him without a legal navigation source. The GNX375 is not approved for IFR use in certificated aircraft.

Marc Zeitlin
05-24-2020, 11:19 AM
That still leaves him without a legal navigation source. The GNX375 is not approved for IFR use in certificated aircraft.It most certainly is. See:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/577174

Last paragraph on the page says:

"With installation approval available for hundreds of Part 23 Class I/II aircraft models, adding a GNX 375 navigator to your cockpit is a straightforward, all-bases-covered proposition."

FlyingRon
05-24-2020, 11:29 AM
It can be "installed" in certified planes. It's still not approved as the sole means of IFR nav.

Marc Zeitlin
05-25-2020, 09:43 AM
It can be "installed" in certified planes. It's still not approved as the sole means of IFR nav.How so?

14CFR Part 91.205(d)(2) USED to say:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

but the current version says:

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

So the requirement for ADF/VOR or any other GROUND based navigational equipment doesn't exist - an approved enroute and approach GPS (which the 175 / 355 /375 family is) is adequate to be legal. Obviously, only GPS approaches can be flown, but there is no longer any requirement for other IFR navigational equipment. This version of 91.205 apparently went into effect on 8/30/2017.

Did you have some other regulation in mind?

FlyingRon
05-25-2020, 10:37 AM
Because unlike VORs and ADFs, certificated planes need appropriate TSO approval for IFR use even for enroute and terminal (let alone approaches). The GNX does not have this. The FAA relented on the units like the GNX being used for the ADS-B requirement but not anything else. This is not a sole-means IFR navigator.

martymayes
05-25-2020, 04:18 PM
Flight manual supplement says GNX 375 is approved for stand alone IFR navigation, specifically:

"Single engine piston aircraft under 6,000 lbs. maximum takeoff weight:
Required Equipment for IFR operations utilizing GPS navigation: Single GPS
175/GNC 355/GNX 375 Navigator"

All other aircraft require:
"second source of TSO-C146 approved GPS navigation or a separate source of VHF navigation"

That's good enough for me.

geosnooker2000
05-26-2020, 01:03 PM
Sooo... Add a GNX375, and then anything else I want to really use that does not require telescopic glasses to see from 3 feet away (like a Garmin G3X)? I really don't understand how people can actually use something with that small of a display as far as map display.

FlyingRon
05-26-2020, 01:50 PM
It's not intended to be used as such, it just gets a small display so it can fit into a "transponder-sized" piece of real estate. They expect you'll use it to drive something else.

geosnooker2000
05-26-2020, 05:50 PM
Thank you for the explanation. It's not always easy getting info on stuff that seasoned pilots already know and take for granted that us newbes don't know! Cheers!

martymayes
05-27-2020, 06:45 AM
Sooo... Add a GNX375, and then anything else I want to really use that does not require telescopic glasses to see from 3 feet away (like a Garmin G3X)? I really don't understand how people can actually use something with that small of a display as far as map display.

I fly a plane with an 375 and since I'm one of the few pilots that does not use an ipad when flying lightplanes, I use the screen. Seems to work okay for me and that's with tri-focal correction. I can't imagine a younger fella having to struggle due to screen size.

geosnooker2000
05-27-2020, 09:18 AM
Well... I'm 52, so...
;)

Mike M
05-27-2020, 11:41 AM
So, since the aircraft has 2 comms already and a xpdr and adsb, maybe a Garmin gps175 for three grand less than a gnx375? Pull the 295 docking port and put it on a RAM mount on the stbd yoke?

a6bn69
06-12-2020, 10:32 AM
I've discovered that with a lot VORs going out of service, most instrument approaches now require DME or GPS, even basic VOR approaches. Look it in the new Notes section of an approach plate in the upper LH corner. You may be IFR legal with less, but you will have a hard time finding an approach to fly.

geosnooker2000
06-15-2020, 05:14 PM
Is there a publication list of VORs going out of service? I've heard rumors and innuendo, but no hard evidence.

Marc Zeitlin
06-15-2020, 07:01 PM
Is there a publication list of VORs going out of service? I've heard rumors and innuendo, but no hard evidence.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/transition_programs/vormon/

The only reason one would want to use a VOR instead of GPS, assuming you have a GPS in the plane, is if the GPS system is out of service. Which is the only reason they're keeping the "Minimum Operational Network".