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Jim Clark
12-09-2011, 04:40 PM
It is no secret that the attendance of pre-war non-warbird classic/antique aircraft at AirVenture 2011 was off dramatically. I was there and saw first hand the lack of representation. Sitting with my Waco I was asked "Where is everybody?" more than once by members of the public. We could have had a pick up football game in the empty rows of vintage parking normally filled with these grand old airplanes. I vigorously shared my opinions about this and was asked to join an ad hoc committee to examine this issue. I have some strong ideas on what I believe needs to happen to reverse this alarming trend and I am not going to share them here, yet. I do want to hear ideas from others on how to address this issue and turn this disturbing trend around. Thanks in advance for your input. The question; "How do we get the pre-war non-warbird classics back to AirVenture?"

DanChief
12-09-2011, 04:55 PM
Jim,

I have a pre-war vintage and have yet to attend. Quite frankly I was very limited on vacation time in my previous position. Now that I have more time I will consider it, but have no interest in showing -- just showing up.

:)

Kyle Boatright
12-09-2011, 05:06 PM
I noticed the large unoccupied areas in the prime vintage area too.

Is it possible that the vintage folks feel disinfranchised with the apparent direction of EAA to transform itself into AOPA Lite?

Tom Downey
12-09-2011, 06:00 PM
I noticed the large unoccupied areas in the prime vintage area too.

Is it possible that the vintage folks feel disinfranchised with the apparent direction of EAA to transform itself into AOPA Lite?That's where I am with it,, plus the fact we owners who restore our own aircraft can't compete with the professionally restored aircraft. Here sets a Dr/Lawyer/ mister big bucks under the wing showing off their aircraft they bought three weeks prior.

Jim Clark
12-09-2011, 06:21 PM
I appreciate the observations and concerns. I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem. Let's light some candles here instead of just cursing the darkness.
Tom, are you saying you feel more of these aircraft would come if the judging criteria were split between owner restored and shop restored?

Let me refocus the question:
What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?

Kyle Boatright
12-09-2011, 06:55 PM
Let me refocus the question:
What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?

I think we need SA to feature those aircraft more frequently. I'd like to see 3-4 covers per year with Antiques, 3-4 with Experimentals, a couple with Warbirds, and the balance with classics or other topics of interest. Basically, I think the reduced antique focus in the magazine causes owners to feel less valued by the organization. When they feel less valued, they don't attend the show.

Not that we can solve it, but demographics are becoming a problem. A lot of the older aircraft are owned by older folks who probably don't stray as far from home as they once did.

Also, as Tom mentioned, owner restored aircraft need to be more prominent. Joe Schmoe's story of rebuilding a Cabin Waco in his basement/garage is infinitely more interesting and relatable than the story about the guy who sent a dataplate and a big check to a professional shop.

steveinindy
12-09-2011, 07:31 PM
The simple answer is economics: a lot of these birds lose my monthly income in oil alone when you start them up. Less disposable income = fewer planes showing up. It doesn't have to be complicated or conspiratorial to be a likely cause of the problem. It's not as interesting nor is it as fun in terms of the drama it causes on here but....


Is it possible that the vintage folks feel disinfranchised with the apparent direction of EAA to transform itself into AOPA Lite?

What's sad is that the very "vintage people" who have the money to maintain and fly one of the big pre-war radials are the very same folks who are likely to also have a Malibu or something similar "inappropriate" for Sport Aviation, etc. See the following comment to understand why I say this:

Here sets a Dr/Lawyer/ mister big bucks under the wing showing off their aircraft they bought three weeks prior.

I mean if I were one of those folks and came across this forum, I wouldn't want to attend Oshkosh either and bring my classic bird out for a bunch of people who spend the rest of the year deriding me to droll all over.


plus the fact we owners who restore our own aircraft can't compete with the professionally restored aircraft.
I thought this was supposed to be about a passion for the aircraft, not about winning a plaque? If you're proud of your work and have done an honestly good job, who cares if The Monopoly Guy rolls up in something a little shinier?


I think we need SA to feature those aircraft more frequently. I'd like to see 3-4 covers per year with Antiques, 3-4 with Experimentals, a couple with Warbirds, and the balance with classics or other topics of interest. Basically, I think the reduced antique focus in the magazine causes owners to feel less valued by the organization. When they feel less valued, they don't attend the show.


Now, that I can agree with.


I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem.

Good luck with that. There's blood in the water now because someone mentioned Sport Aviation's "problems". I give it another ten posts until they are calling for Chad to turn over Mac for crucifixion as he is- without a scintilla of doubt- absolutely, completely and single-handedly responsible for the downturn in these classics showing up. [/sarcasm]


fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?

At the risk of sounding excessively anal retentive, but has anyone bothered to track and see what areas get the most visitation? It would be interesting to actually have some hard data to judge what people are really visiting instead of relying on each little group's claims they are what the public is really there to see. I mean the warbirds guys think they are the heart of the show, the RV guys think they are, etc. It would be kind of neat to see who actually gets the most visitors in a given year.


A lot of the older aircraft are owned by older folks who probably don't stray as far from home as they once did.

That's a very good point.


Joe Schmoe's story of rebuilding a Cabin Waco in his basement/garage is infinitely more interesting and relatable than the story about the guy who sent a dataplate and a big check to a professional shop.

Like I said in the other thread about Sport Aviation, nothing makes me flip past an article faster than three pages of a five page article being some guy discussing his build unless it's giving technical information or ideas for something useful. I know that human interest stories are a cornerstone of journalism, but at the same time....it get's just as old for some of us as articles about glass cockpits get for the rest of you. I don't find a story about a guy building a Sonex, Pitts, or RV-12 something I can relate to because I can't ever see myself doing it.

Jim Clark
12-09-2011, 09:29 PM
What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?

Thanks Kyle for some specific things to think about.

Now I'll give this another try. If you're having trouble focusing your response here are a few suggestions on how you may start your comment:

"To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should (enter suggestion here)."

OR:

"I would bring my big round engine pre-war non-warbird aircraft to AirVenture if EAA would ​(enter suggestion here)."

Jeff Skiles
12-09-2011, 10:04 PM
I think we need to turn the question around. It's not about what the AirVenture should do for us, it's simply that if we want the AirVenture to be about antiques, we need to show up. The responsibilities on us. Jim brings his ship every year. I regret that I didn't this year. Let's all do it next year. AirVenture is fun whether your flying a WACO or an RV.

It seems like everyone has a hangar tale about some inconsiderate attendee climbing on their airplane. Not that damage is not possible, but most of those stories are just that..stories. 99.9% of the attendees treat the aircraft with the respect they deserve and just want to look at them.

Some antique types make an effort to show up in force. Look at the Cessna 195s for instance there are rows of them. We need to throw away the excuses, plan the time, fly to AirVenture, and have a good time. Jim does it, let's join him!

Bill
12-09-2011, 10:17 PM
To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should offer the same perks to this group as it does to the Warbirds.

While I don't own one of the above mentioned big round engined beasts, I do know a number of pilots who do. Almost without exception, most of them are now retired. As I can attest (being retired thrice over), retirement, while most enjoyable, usually results in a diminished income. Many of the operators of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft that I have known flew a lot more prior to their retirement (although its only a small sample) than they did after retirement. So it is possible that more of them might fly to Oshkosh if there was some method of decreasing the financial pain and making them feel very much appreciated. Of course the problem with this approach is deciding where you draw the line between those who qualify for the perks and those who don't. But I don't have to solve that since I'm a real scientist, not a practitioner of the social sciences. :cool:

Jim Clark
12-09-2011, 10:27 PM
I knew that perks existed for warbirds, but I don't know what they are. I think you really hit the nail when you said, "making them feel very much appreciated" and perks certainly do that. Thanks Bill, great input.

Kyle Boatright
12-09-2011, 10:27 PM
The warbird guys do a feature every day with an aircraft on prominent display and put type experts, pilots, owners, etc. in front of the airplane with a microphone to discuss the airplane.

Does anything similar exist for the antique crowd? I could see having several featurettes (sp?) a day.

Also, I'd love to see some of the older birds featured in the pre-show flybys. I know that has been done before, but it certainly isn't done daily and doesn't get the promotion it deserves.

Tom Downey
12-09-2011, 10:28 PM
I appreciate the observations and concerns. I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem. Let's light some candles here instead of just cursing the darkness.
Tom, are you saying you feel more of these aircraft would come if the judging criteria were split between owner restored and shop restored?

Let me refocus the question:
What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?

What we need is incentive to fly it out to OSH.
When we restore and old aircraft we would like to see points added for the upgrades we place in them to be safe daily flyers. but the EAA judges subtract points for not being box original. the best example of that is the near loss of the Spartan that had a brake failure because he was running the OEM brakes that are known to be a POS. had he known the brake upgrade would have given him more points that accident would probably never happened.

For old guys like me the OSH meet has lost its appeal, due to the shift to the big money war birds, heavy iron stuff.
and a lot less attention to the camp in type folks. I've seen the camp facilities at OSH and you can tell where the money wasn't spent.

steveinindy
12-09-2011, 10:55 PM
To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should offer the same perks to this group as it does to the Warbirds.

I believe the perks are provided largely through Warbirds of America, which is its own entity but I'm not sure how exactly they are affiliated with the EAA. Don't quote me on this, but this is just what I heard from one of the local folks who owns a P-51.

Jim Clark
12-09-2011, 10:55 PM
Thanks Tom. All good info and really helping me to put together a list. I wanted to post a concern here that was shared on another forum just to get it included in the thread. "I would take my Waco to AirVenture if I wasn't so worried about damage from the public."

Tom Downey
12-09-2011, 11:09 PM
"I would take my Waco to AirVenture if I wasn't so worried about damage from the public."

That doesn't worry me as much as a break down on the way, which puts my aircraft in a podunk and no parts.

Jim Clark
12-10-2011, 11:32 AM
That doesn't worry me as much as a break down on the way, which puts my aircraft in a podunk and no parts.It's the owners decision whether to fly their antiques to events or not. If we let the fear of a breakdown control what we do with our antique aircraft they would all be sitting silent in museums. I choose to fly and am interested in doing positive things to encourage like minded owners to bring their birds to AirVenture.

Garth Elliot
12-10-2011, 12:26 PM
I certainly have been disenchanted with some of the OSH goings on. I have also been disenchanted with Sport Aviation Magazine. Too often I read in the aviation press (not just Sport Aviation) articles about a aircraft that at the end do not detail performance specifications...and I think some might be lying when they do provide information. Thus we see "Ain't She Pretty" articles without getting into the meat; the capabilities of the aircraft. I get tired of this. (The re-sizing of the magazine's dimensions is another sad "story" but not for here).

One solution might be in the "Show Within the Show" with a more sectoralized structure...not just parking the vintage birds in a section but perhaps more of an effort there to make people feel appreciated. EAA has become quite the "big business" and surely people who bring their aircraft could be given a tank of fuel? EAA has been described by some as having become too greedy ($) and sadly many of those people have not renewed memberships.

I had been away from OSH for decades and then returned in 2009 and was astonished by the huge size...and the commercial atmosphere. Perhaps the commercialization IS a necessary evil, but the old roots - a big joyful gathering of the clan - seem to be missing.
I was gratified to find "some" of the old EAA spirit out on the flight lines and under the wings of aircraft (in the shade). I guess it is the "family picnic" atmosphere that is missing.

On my original point...could we make a "show within a show" a workable solution to get around the glitz and commercialism?

Everyone needs to feel welcome; feel they are part of the family. Perhaps show and discussions forums located right within the vintage parking area itself? I know there is the red barn, but perhaps there could be additional things directly on the vintage site? Oshkosh is a BIG place...and I understand one could only rent an electric transporter from EAA. You could not bring your own unless you could prove disability...but perhaps they worry about insurance with "too many" such vehicles? Nevertheless, it takes much time to traverse between sections of the field...and the population is aging...

Personally I think it is WONDERFUL if an aeroplane is really "airworthy". It does not have to be a "cream puff". If you have a good and airworthy aircraft you shold be MADE to feel "MOST WELCOME". What we do NOT need is a gathering of aircraft deemed "unworthy" uless they happen to be cream puffs! Deep pockets do not make one aircraft better than another. Perhaps prettier - but not better. Somehow I think we have put the cart before the horse, thereby losing our roots.

I sense something warm and fuzzy about an aircraft that is not just there to be pretty. Somehow that aircraft is more "REAL".

My fractured and devalued two cents worth.

Ernie
12-10-2011, 01:15 PM
After thinking about this for awhile, I will throw out a couple of suggestions. I have been trying to think of some low cost initiatives that would help.

First a daily fly-by with announcements. Not every antique, but maybe 10 each day chosen by a lottery or pier voting (not judges). Since many of those interested in the antiques are also antiques, how about reserved parking (not free) for those that fly-in and rent a car that is more convenient to the antique area? Dedicated and more frequent transportation to/from the antique area? Golf cart availability/rental? As someone else suggested, scheduled events/descriptions? If the grass runway happens, how about special training for the volunteers that marshall taildraggers? Some help finding accommodations for non-campers?

These are all within EAA's control, not especially expensive, maybe revenue generating (golf cart rental, reserve parking). I have the National Biplane Fly-in and the National Waco Fly-in on my calendar for 2012. Some of those would cause me to add AV.

danielfindling
12-10-2011, 04:53 PM
I wonder if a simple invitation would increase participation. E.G. A direct appeal to owners groups or a pre-war show/day akin to the warbird spectacular. How about a pre-war biplane spectacular? or Grass strip invitational?

Daniel

steveinindy
12-10-2011, 06:18 PM
but the old roots - a big joyful gathering of the clan - seem to be missing

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I've never gotten that feeling at Oshkosh.


I was gratified to find "some" of the old EAA spirit out on the flight lines and under the wings of aircraft (in the shade). I guess it is the "family picnic" atmosphere that is missing.

To me, I've never found a difference between those areas and everywhere else. There are nice people and there are ******** in all areas of Oshkosh. If I'm looking for a "picnic", I'm going to go to something other than Oshkosh. There are plenty of fly-ins and regional events every year to get that "ol' time religion" if you will.


EAA has been described by some as having become too greedy ($) and sadly many of those people have not renewed memberships.

Some people are, to use an adage my grandmother taught me, just like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs: they are going to find something to yowl about sooner rather than later.

Tom Downey
12-10-2011, 07:38 PM
It's the owners decision whether to fly their antiques to events or not. If we let the fear of a breakdown control what we do with our antique aircraft they would all be sitting silent in museums. I choose to fly and am interested in doing positive things to encourage like minded owners to bring their birds to AirVenture.

Jim I did not mean to imply that break downs would stop me, but they do worry me, but to be honest I'd rather go to the small fly/camp ins than the huge commercial gatherings like OSH. Concrete Wa. flyin is more fun for me, it is more relaxed and casual gathering of friends. WE had over 350 aircraft which most camped over night for the free breakfast, no prizes, no charges, no hassle getting in or out, just fun.
http://concrete-wa.com/north-cascades-fly-in/

Tom Downey
12-10-2011, 08:21 PM
I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I've never gotten that feeling at Oshkosh.

I hope every one realizes that is exactly how the flyin at OSH got started, flyin, camp tell flying stories, and it grew and grew, things changed, the bigger it got the more it costs until now it is all about money, who gets the biggest trophies, and the bragging rights.



me, I've never found a difference between those areas and everywhere else. There are nice people and there are ******** in all areas of Oshkosh. If I'm looking for a "picnic", I'm going to go to something other than Oshkosh. There are plenty of fly-ins and regional events every year to get that "ol' time religion" if you will.
And that is exactly what we will do, we will go where the money and trophies don't matter.



people are, to use an adage my grandmother taught me, just like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs: they are going to find something to yowl about sooner rather than later.
Jim asked for and got our opinions, and your Granny should also realize you can please some of the folks all the time but you'll never please all the folks all the time.
I'm perfectly happy building my Fairchild to chase hamburgers not thropies and having an aircraft that is equipped to fly in todays airspace, and go where I like in a safe manner.
OSH flyin has grown over the years into some thing I simply do not enjoy doing anymore.

my old raggedy muffin daily flyer
1229

Jim Clark
12-10-2011, 09:27 PM
I appreciate all the suggestions but I know there are some good ideas we haven't heard yet. I'm looking for more so chime in and tell me how you would finish these statements:

"To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should (enter suggestion here)."

OR:

"I would bring my big round engine pre-war non-warbird aircraft to AirVenture if EAA would ​(enter suggestion here)."

steveinindy
12-10-2011, 11:21 PM
I hope every one realizes that is exactly how the flyin at OSH got started, flyin, camp tell flying stories, and it grew and grew, things changed, the bigger it got the more it costs until now it is all about money, who gets the biggest trophies, and the bragging rights.
By the way, I think I should clarify what I meant by the statement you quoted. I meant that I've never gotten the feeling that the sense of community (that others seem to feel is lacking) is not present. I always feel like I am among friends at Oshkosh even if I don't agree completely with their opinions. It doesn't have to be a fly-in version of Cheers (unless we're trying to get Patty Wagstaff to show up), but because what drives aviation forward is the sense of creative and collaborative friction that comes from the lively exchange of ideas. That is what I see Oshkosh being about and that spirit is still very strong there.


Jim asked for and got our opinions, and your Granny should also realize you can please some of the folks all the time but you'll never please all the folks all the time.
That's exactly what she was implying with that statement.


And that is exactly what we will do, we will go where the money and trophies don't matter.

To me, that's Oshkosh. I don't see it being about the awards unless a specific person (meaning whomever is looking at it) wants to make it about the awards. Hell, I attended for two years before I realized they really did give out awards.


I'm perfectly happy building my Fairchild to chase hamburgers not thropies and having an aircraft that is equipped to fly in todays airspace, and go where I like in a safe manner.

That's awesome. If you ever come out this way, can I get a ride? That's one sweet plane you've got there.

Tom Downey
12-10-2011, 11:59 PM
To me, that's Oshkosh. I don't see it being about the awards unless a specific person (meaning whomever is looking at it) wants to make it about the awards. Hell, I attended for two years before I realized they really did give out awards.

You probably did not realize what the statement in any aircraft for sale ad that says "Oshkosh Grand Champion" will make in the selling price of the aircraft.

but now we are thread creeping and Jim is trying to stay on subject.

H.G. Frautschy
12-12-2011, 09:29 AM
Hi folks,

I wanted to drop you a note to tell you 1) I really appreciate Jim Clark's posting of this topic, and 2) ditto his dogged determination to keep the thread "on target."
You bet we all have noticed the steady decline in antiques of all sizes, the VAA volunteer leadership and VAA staff (Theresa and I) are keen to turn that around. This past year's absence of those airplanes (approx 60 antiques registered, vs, a peak of over 120) was certainly noticed. A couple of things to mention; 1) Antiques are the only showplanes which are given a specific area in which to park. They get the prime real estate just south of Theater in the Woods simply because we know members and the public are especially interested in them, and we want to make it easy for them to find them; 2) The same is true for Antique airplane campers; they get their own row or two for the same reason. We recognize the unique place these airplanes have in the history of aviation, and we want to highlight that fact by treating them well.
I agree with the poster who mentioned the needed upgrades in shower facilities, and we are, in fact, working with EAA on a plan to update and/or replace the current camping facilities for our fellow showplane campers. As someone who has tent camped either in showplane camping or trailer camped in Camp Scholler for the past three decades, it's clear we need to oversee some improvements in our showplane camping facilities.
I should point out that we have, since 2010, had a "Vintage In Review" program, similar to the Warbirds program up north. It is held every morning at 11 am on the asphalt pad to the southeast of the Red Barn, directly out front of the new Vintage Hangar, and has been coordinated in an expert way by volunteer Ray Johnson. This is an evolving program, one that we intend to continue to improve. When the concept was brought forward, EAA was quick to help us by relocating the ice cream stand, which had been located on that pad, to a shaded location along Vern Av., to the west of the VAA Red Barn. They have provided audio support from Bose and we look forward to making it better each year.
Another area in which we've recieved full support is the creation and maintenance of a grass runway to allow antiques to land at Oshkosh. This isn't nearly as easy as you might think, as there are physical and operational constraints as to where we can operate during that week, but rest assured we're doing all we can to make it happen.
There's plenty more to do, and please believe me, we really want to make the antique area a fully populated flightline so we can all enjoy seeing these great, magnificent planes. So we'll be reading and listening to help us make the decisions to make this one of the great places for antiques to gather. Keep the concrete (or turf :D) suggestions coming!

H.G. Frautschy
Executive Director, VAA
Editor, Vintage Airplane magazine

steveinindy
12-12-2011, 01:06 PM
You probably did not realize what the statement in any aircraft for sale ad that says "Oshkosh Grand Champion" will make in the selling price of the aircraft.


Oh, I completely understand the effect that will have. I just continue to hold the point that if a person isn't fixated on that, then the issue of Oshkosh being about awards, etc is eliminated. It's a self induced pressure regardless of the effect a win will have upon the sale price of an aircraft. Personally, I've seen some aircraft that have won that award that I would not take if they were handed to me free of charge.

By the way, sorry for any part I played in the derail. I just wish to make it clear that a lot of the arguments people put forth about Airventure doing something or being about something that it didn't used to be don't stand up to logical critique. I'll agree that some things have changed, but a good swath of the grandstanding and histrionics on this forum are based solely on self-induced pressure. Think the organizational equivalent of "get-home-itis". "Get-my-way-itis" you might say....

oowiee
12-12-2011, 10:07 PM
I don't know if I would fit in any of these posts but after 40 years of out of flying I bought a Culver cadet and am basically having it restored with some work from me. If the carpet is not out at the EAA I'll find somewhere that I feel comfortable. AAA appears to be very open with the antiques also. I'll make one stab with EAA and if I'm not accepted I'll go elsewhere no matter what everyone else does.

FlyingRon
12-13-2011, 09:52 AM
The last thing we need in the show areas is putting more ground vehicles in the show areas. I definitely think Vintage could do better on their "showcase." I almost always miss it (it's only one day and the life of me I can't remember when it is scheduled and I work the vintage flight line nearly every day during the pre-airshow/airshow time.

The prewar stuff already gets prime parking guaranteed (rather than risking being parked in Fond du Lac like everybody else). I do appreciate the fuel burn that those who do attend bring. It's bad enough shooting out here in the Navion but bucking winds in a slower radial with a big fuel burn (my neighbor is one of the cabin Waco guys who has brought his plane to Oshkosh every year since he bought it) is a substantial expense.

It's going to be really dicey this year with all the cubs coming in. Don't know where they're going to put them but they'll easily swamp the four or five rows reserved for the prewar stuff. I inquired with the vintage chairs but didn't get much of a definitive response.

H.G. Frautschy
12-13-2011, 11:30 AM
Hi Ron,

I can put your mind at ease on one point; the Cubs will not be "swamping the four or five rows reserved for the prewar stuff." Very quickly it became apparent that we couldn't accommodate all the pre-war Cubs in that location, so we are planning on a Cubs to Oshkosh parking/camping area centered around the current type club parking area just to the south of the Emergency Aircraft Repair area, with overflow to the east in the showplane parking/camping area. Planning on that project is an evolving process, we're still 8 months out; we will continue to refine it as we move into 2012.

H.G. Frautschy
12-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Oh, and those of you who know Jim's airplane will see a familiar sight in your mailboxes in the next couple of days as your Dec. issue of Vintage Airplane arrives...


1240

We all appreciate the fact that Jim took the time to not only bring his beautiful Waco to AirVenture, but he also shared his treasure and time with EAA's photographers so we could share with an even wider audience. Thanks Jim! (And yes, extra copies are in the mail...)

FlyingRon
12-13-2011, 03:00 PM
Looks like you can get 90 in there (roughly, the cubs have a wider wingspan than the Swifts or whatever it is in the picture I'm counting so I'm adjusting a little) not counting Geoff's row. There's only about room for 24 between Sally's and the first of the three judges rows.

Floatsflyer
12-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Hi folks,

I wanted to drop you a note to tell you 1) I really appreciate Jim Clark's posting of this topic, and 2) ditto his dogged determination to keep the thread "on target."
You bet we all have noticed the steady decline in antiques of all sizes, the VAA volunteer leadership and VAA staff (Theresa and I) are keen to turn that around. This past year's absence of those airplanes (approx 60 antiques registered, vs, a peak of over 120) was certainly noticed. A couple of things to mention; 1) Antiques are the only showplanes which are given a specific area in which to park. They get the prime real estate just south of Theater in the Woods simply because we know members and the public are especially interested in them, and we want to make it easy for them to find them; 2) The same is true for Antique airplane campers; they get their own row or two for the same reason. We recognize the unique place these airplanes have in the history of aviation, and we want to highlight that fact by treating them well.

H.G. Frautschy
Executive Director, VAA
Editor, Vintage Airplane magazine

Hi H.G.,

Just to get back to the original thread of the significant vintage decline this year. I've been coming to Osh for years and while I have very eclectic aviation/aircraft type interests, I have always been most attracted to the antiques. For me it's the combination of artistry of design and era nostalgia. Every category of aircraft(warbirds, ultralights, homebuilts, seaplane base etc.) has a flying showcase daily at Osh except the Antiques. Why is that the case? Attracting more eyeballs to the vintage area would be achieved if the hundreds of thousands in attendance could see them actually fly. This would no doubt be of great interest to the owners who should benefit from the same perks(rumoured or otherwise) as the warbirds.

longwing110
12-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Look at that, there is the Grand Champion Antique right there on the front cover, the Grand Champion Classic is on the back cover. There is a five page feature article on the Grand Champion Antique, a Stearman, with lots of cool pictures. There are eleven pages of pictures of antiques and classics from the show, many of them in the air over the lake --- real nice photos, most with the owner/pilot next to their plane with a huge grin. 5 page article on the Grand Champion Classic, a Cessna 195. An article on Bud Dake, The monocoupe Man, a 10 page article with cool photos. This issue is a keeper! Every year I looked forward to the November issue dedicated to antiques/classics, it was my favorite. I also enjoyed the October issue reporting on the homebuilts at Oshkosh and the December issue reporting on the warbirds in attendance. There was exciting coverage of the planes and pilots that took their planes to the show. Heck, if you flew your plane there, you might even see a picture of it in print someday.

Oh yes, and on page 6, the announcement that HG Frautschy was named the newest member of the editorial staff.

Now pull out the November 2011 issue for comparison. Right there on page 74 is part of the answer. The antique coverage is not about the ones that flew into Oshkosh, but rather the Waco's that flew into Mount Vernon. The simple fact is that the low key local/regional antique oriented fly-ins like this one, the one in Washington mentioned in an earlier post, that's where your attendees have gone. They are just more fun. That's who your competition is. Look at the large number that chose Blakesburg this year. Given a choice, flying your antique into Oshkosh just isn't at the top of people's list anymore.

I've been a member since 1979. And it seems to me that the visibility, image, promotion, and awareness of the antique/vintage community within the larger EAA family has steadily declined. Used to be balance between the homebuilts, antiques and warbirds. In, my opinion, this balance has been lost.

Agree that a grass landing capability would be attractive.

Agree with the need for daily fly-by of antiques and classics with announcer, in a good time spot. Announcer needs to provide colorful commentary about the breed, which could be provided by owners or type club, to create interest/excitement.

Agree that safety improvements, such as Cleveland wheels and brakes, should not subtract points in judging.

Need better daily internet coverage of the antiques/classics during the event. Many of us are unable to attend and would love to see timely daily updates of the antique activity. Upload pictures of all antiques as they are parked. How cool would that be. Cool for the owners too.

Need better post-event coverage of those that attended in the pages of Sport Aviation.

Work with type clubs and local chapters to specifically target owners within X mile radius (say 500 miles) of KOSH to fly the antiques in.

Well, that's it for now, the rain stopped so I'm heading to the hangar to work on the Monocoupe.

Dave

Jim Clark
12-14-2011, 08:43 PM
Thanks Longwing. Excellent post.

H.G. Frautschy
12-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Hi "FloatsFlyer",


Anyway, to get to your question. It boiled down to the logistics of putting on the "Parade of Flight". Because of our location in the areas that are most heavily populated with airshow watchers, it became necessary to move the airplanes that were participating out of the parking areas first thing in the morning, and then, after the Parade was over during the Showcase prior to the airshow, they'd have to be parked on the south end of the field to await the end of the airshow. For some pilots, that meant committing an entire day to the effort, and many simply said "no" when they were asked to participate. There were other factors outside of that which also caused us to end the Parade, but we have been discussing the possibility of resurrecting it, particularly since support for such a display has been shown by EAA management. So it's certainly not a dead concept, and we appreciate knowing it was a valued part of the week's events.

viper1day
12-15-2011, 01:14 PM
To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should...
Fulfil the rumor heard at Oshkosh last year. Open a nice Grass Runway!

I am a 100hr Sport Pilot that is currently flying our Cub and Champ. We have a pretty good bunch of guys locally that for the most part, only fly between grass strips and local fly-ins. In a 15 mile radius there are probably 75-100 antique airplanes, not all flying of course. My dad has a Fleet 16B that we have spend 20+ years restoring, but he only flies it roughly 10-12 hours a year. He is a great pilot and has been flying a long time, but doesn't want to risk landing on hard surface. There are a lot of friends that have the same opinion and would never even consider it unless there was a grass runway option. I know this is probably a major undertaking, but Antique and Classic aircraft are just as important as War birds, Ultralights, and Homebuilts. Think of all of the people that got their 1st taste of aviation in a Cub or a Champ, Back when these airplanes were new and reasonable. Maybe it is time to dedicate more than just a parking area for the old airplanes. Maybe it's time to create an area similar to the ultralight area, where these airplanes can fly when they want, most of the time in the morning, or early evening when the winds are calm, and have a grass runway to do it on. I am 35 years old, but antique/classic aircraft are my main interest, restoring, learning the tips and tricks, the processes. We have started losing the "Experts" in the antique classic community, and with the numbers of airplanes diminishing at Oshkosh, so are the opportunities for younger people like myself to learn about these great airplanes, and what it takes to keep them going, and flying them. Look at Blakesburg and just imagine what Oshkosh could be with an area dedicated to Antiques. Move the Tri motor down there, offer biplane rides, old car display for (20's-40's cars) It could be an event within the event. And to comment on someone's earlier post, what does it matter if a wealthy individual pays a shop to restore an airplane and bring it there to win a trophy...for 1 thing, that is one more antique that would be in attendance, 2...the person that restored it probably has an antique that he or she was able to restore from the money received from the restoration. 3...that restoration opened up the opportunity for someone to get experience working on a antique airplane project... and so on and so on. Hope I haven't rambled on too much, this is just my opinion, I am not a writer by any means so my sentences and punctuation isn't the greatest, but I really hope someone reads this and shares my opinion or desire. Thanks for the opportunity to be able to express my opinion to the aviation community.
Sincerely,
Ryan Harter

Jim Clark
12-15-2011, 02:03 PM
To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should...
Fulfil the rumor heard at Oshkosh last year. Open a nice Grass Runway!
...........
And to comment on someone's earlier post, what does it matter if a wealthy individual pays a shop to restore an airplane and bring it there to win a trophy...for 1 thing, that is one more antique that would be in attendance, 2...the person that restored it probably has an antique that he or she was able to restore from the money received from the restoration. 3...that restoration opened up the opportunity for someone to get experience working on a antique airplane project... and so on and so on. Sincerely,
Ryan Harter

Thanks Ryan for your comments. I have intentionally not commented on this thread as I was interested in others opinions. I really appreciate your take on shop restorations and many of us agree whole heartedly. Nothing bad happens when we get an antique back in the air and it is shared with others.

H.G. Frautschy
12-15-2011, 03:20 PM
To Jim and Ryan, plus the others,

We are actively working on a grass runway option; the most challenging aspect of creating one on Wittman Field is the very narrow area that comprises the south half of the airport. We have to meet all the requirements of a full-time runway, even if it's for "temporary use" during the convention, and even if it has operating limitations.
That means no overflights on approaches over people or planes, no significant building obstructions, the ability of the traffic to integrate with the flow from the other runways, etc. This has long been a priority for me, and now with some additional support from EAA top management, I think we can get something done. And believe me, when it's actually blades of grass poking out of the dirt, the whole world's gonna know about it!

steveinindy
12-15-2011, 04:33 PM
He is a great pilot and has been flying a long time, but doesn't want to risk landing on hard surface

As the relative newbie who has no grass landings to his credit, what precisely is so "risky" about landing on a well maintained runway? I would think that an errant gopher hole would be a far greater potential hazard.


I am a 100hr Sport Pilot that is currently flying our Cub and Champ. We have a pretty good bunch of guys locally that for the most part, only fly between grass strips and local fly-ins. In a 15 mile radius there are probably 75-100 antique airplanes, not all flying of course. My dad has a Fleet 16B that we have spend 20+ years restoring, but he only flies it roughly 10-12 hours a year.

Where do you fly out of?

Jim Clark
12-15-2011, 06:28 PM
Valid question Steve. Tailwheel aircraft are susceptible to the dreaded "ground Loop" and when they get going a little wrong it takes a skilled hand to correct and sometimes even that isn't enough. Grass has much less traction than pavement and therefore you are less likely to head to the weeds if you get a little off line in grass compared to hard surface. Simply put grass is more forgiving for tail draggers especially if there is a little crosswind. I have 700 hours conventional gear (tail wheel) and I land on both, but I prefer grass.

wacoykcs
12-16-2011, 07:25 AM
I have attended Rockford, Oshkosh and now Air Venture since the 1960's. I have attended the last 25 years consecutively. I am a dyed in the wool antiquer who was raised around radial engine airplanes and now try to share the experience with any younger person who shows an interest. I am relatively young (49 yrs old) to have been in this particular niche my entire life. My wife and I own two 1930 Waco RNF's, a 1935 Waco YKC-S, 1941 Rearwin Skyranger and a 1973 Bellanca Citabria. We both are pilots and base at a very unique airport in Dayton, Ohio with a good number of vintage aircraft based on the field.

I have attended with several of our airplanes in past years (not since 2003) and have even won numerous awards with an airplane I restored (Stinson 108). What I see as one of our deciding factors in bringing an airplane is the cost. Not only are the radial engined airplanes thirsty for both gas and oil, but simply getting to AV is only the beginning of the costs. We then have to pay for camping, we have to buy weekly passes, we have to pay $3-4 for a bottle of water, $10 minimum per person for even a hamburger and for what?

I also think the Vintage/Classic parking area has lost alot of the appeal it once had. Yes, it is great that the Pre-WWII antiques still have a dedicated area, however, it loses appeal to see rows of Cessna 172/182 and Piper products parked there that were built pre-1970. I used to love to take evening strolls with my camera in hand south to the end of the runway just to see what interesting, weird Antique/Classic was parked there because the Vintage Parking was full. That has not happened in at least the last 6-8 years. Now as I walk south it is nothing but aluminum singles and twins built 1958-1970....BORING.

To summerize, throw the antique people a bone to come. Give them free camping.....or some daily passes for free. They came to help YOU by displaying their aircraft and without them, your show would be lacking (as it was this year!).

viper1day
12-16-2011, 10:25 AM
As the relative newbie who has no grass landings to his credit, what precisely is so "risky" about landing on a well maintained runway? I would think that an errant gopher hole would be a far greater potential hazard.



Where do you fly out of?

We have a private airstrip just NorthEast of Greenfield. Directly East of Mt. Comfort about 10 miles. Harter Flying Field, 7911 or Sauer-Harter on the sectional.

Tom Downey
12-16-2011, 11:08 AM
To summerize, throw the antique people a bone to come. Give them free camping.....or some daily passes for free. They came to help YOU by displaying their aircraft and without them, your show would be lacking (as it was this year!).
Out of curiosity, what would you estimate the cost of arriving 1 day prior to the show and leaving 1 day after the show? just for camping, food. and life expenses. I know what it will cost for the trip to and from.

FlyingRon
12-16-2011, 02:07 PM
Camping will cost you an extra day for coming early. There's no charge for being a straggler on the way out. Food depends on what you make of it. If you pack in your own, you're talking small $$$. If you're going to hoof it over to a restaurant more.

By the way, Vintage did set up a grass runway (mostly for the benefit of aircraft with only tail skids which were problematic to set up before) last summer. I don't know if that is going to be repeat thing and what the procedures for landing there rather than the paved strips.

bowmanandy
12-16-2011, 09:09 PM
Hi Jim,
I recently helped finish up the restoration of a 1928 Buhl
Airsedan that was started by Ed Marquart at Flabob
airport in Ca. in 1995. The plane, NC5860 is the prototype
of the Buhl Ca-3C. It was last flown in 1953, and now has
flown at the Pellston, Mi. airport on Oct. 22, 2011.

The plane is owned by descendents of Larry Buhl, the
president of Buhl Aircraft, Marysville, Mi. The aircraft
participated in the 1928 Ford Reliability Air Tour.

The family would like to take the plane to Air Venture 2012,
but a request for assistance with the insurance cost
was met with little enthusiasim by the EAA. Due to the lack of other
aircraft of this type, insurance is the cost that has made the plane
very expensive to fly. Do you have any suggestions
to help this aircraft appear this year?

The current plan is for the plane to go into a private museum, no runway,
in the spring of 2012 and never be seen by the general public.
She is not an award winning restoration, but she is pretty and
a classic cabin Sesquiplane.

If the EAA wanted to build attendance of round engined pre-war
antiques, this plane would be a nice addition. Sorry,I repeat myself, any suggestions
to help us afford to bring her to OSH?

Andy Bowman

Andrew King
12-16-2011, 09:52 PM
Try http://www.aircraftinsurance.net/ for insurance, but that kind of stuff is the owner's problem, not EAA's. If the owner wants to show off his airplane at Oshkosh he has to get it there on his own, but the question at hand is what can EAA do at Airventure to encourage that effort. I'm with Andy, throw them a bone, I hear a lot of antiquers complain that EAA doesn't care about them any more, and even though it would be a small part of the expense of the whole trip a free wristband and camping pass would make them feel a lot more welcome. I'm sure some of you have heard the joke about the new Oshkosh arrival procedures: "Fly over, throw out your wallet, and go home", it's humor, but people who bring in show planes, whether antique, classic, warbird, homebuilt, ultralight, or?? shouldn't pay as much to attend as people who drive in or bring non-show planes. I think every airplane that can be judged should get one free weekly wristband and one free camping pass. Raise the wristband price at the front gate a dollar or two, surely that would cover giving them away to the showplanes, wouldn't it?

The grass runway is also very important to make the antique guys feel welcome, to show that EAA is putting out the effort to reach them. I know for a fact that Joe Santana and Mike Williams would not have brought their beautiful Air Mail biplanes to Airventure this year if they were not allowed to land on grass, and many thanks to HG and his crew for their hard work to make this possible.

The NORDO arrival and departure procedures need to stay in place also, what a disappointment that they did away with that at Sun 'N' Fun, that will cause less antiques to go there.

The ageing ownership of vintage aircraft will be an increasing factor, but a lot of the problem is just perception of vintage aircraft owners that they are not that high on EAA's priority list.

I've only missed a few of the Oshkosh fly-ins in the last 20 years, and I go mainly to see people that I only see once or twice a year, but there is usually at least a couple of vintage airplanes that are really exciting to see. I've been very fortunate to have attended the last 3 Airventures on somebody else's dime and flying somebody else's neat airplane, but I've also flown in several different airplanes that I've owned over the years, and several that belonged to others that I flew in at my own expense. If you want to show off your airplane it's the place to do it, but EAA does need to pay attention and not get complacent about making show plane owners feel welcome. As Andy said, without the show planes there isn't much of a show.

Jim Clark
12-16-2011, 11:31 PM
Hey Andy,I guess I'm not sure why insurance would not be attainable at a reasonable price for your Buhl. I fly a 1929 Waco and insurance is no problem, assuming you can find a pilot with 10 hours in type. If not nobody will insure those first ten hours. Would love to see it at the big show.

steveinindy
12-17-2011, 02:17 AM
We have a private airstrip just NorthEast of Greenfield. Directly East of Mt. Comfort about 10 miles. Harter Flying Field, 7911 or Sauer-Harter on the sectional.

Ah....OK. That's cool. I might send you a PM sometime. I'd like to get a look at your dad's plane if he wouldn't mind. I've never seen a Fleet in person that I can recall.


Valid question Steve. Tailwheel aircraft are susceptible to the dreaded "ground Loop" and when they get going a little wrong it takes a skilled hand to correct and sometimes even that isn't enough. Grass has much less traction than pavement and therefore you are less likely to head to the weeds if you get a little off line in grass compared to hard surface. Simply put grass is more forgiving for tail draggers especially if there is a little crosswind. I have 700 hours conventional gear (tail wheel) and I land on both, but I prefer grass.

Ah....I see. I don't have any taildragger time (not for lack of wanting it!) and I've only been on one flight that landed on grass. I wasn't sure what the issue was that would make someone go "I'm not coming if you don't let me land in the grass" so I figured it was best to ask and learn something. :)

Garth Elliot
12-17-2011, 08:29 AM
I have not looked at the Oshkosh airport map since I flew in there in my J-3 many years ago. However if there is room would it be possible to extend (!) one of the paved runway with, in effect, a grass overrun area where the older aircraft could touch down. It is just a thought and I have seen such airports which worked very well...made me feel very welcome with my no-brakes railskid equipped Taylor E-2 Cub. Even in a three wheel equipped Taylor J-2 without brakes, I hated the thought of landing on pavement...that horrible sinking feeling was potentially there ...with the thought of the wheels "locking on" to the pavement while the rest of the airplane wanted to keep on going to one side....ugh!!!
I should think another factor not mentioned (not that one can do much about it!) is the weather. We have seen "Sploshkosh" and we have seen the winds at Sun 'n Fun and these sort of things can have a great impact on the pilot/owner psyche. I have talked to pilots who since then have had some very sobering thoughts about such a trip...and am sure it did have an impact.
Perhaps for older aircraft, local clubs/groups around the country could "volunteer" to invite pilots to use their "grass runways", enroute to and from AirVenture? With some local support around the country, pilots could pick up specific "migration flyways" to follow to get to Oshkosh and Sun 'n Fun as well as certain other gatherings? Actually it could become quite competitive and thus provide more grass, parking and fuel supply offerings. Eventually fields could get approval ratings as "EAA Vintage Flyway" hospitality locations for vintage aircraft? Thus there could be as much pleasure in the "going" and "coming" as there would be in "being there"? Perhaps the Vintage Division could provide such fiels with large "VINTAGE FLYWAY" decals to be displyed at such fields?
I think it important to realise that many of the bigger and "modern" airports -being staffed with highly- trained specialist personnel and the most modern of equipment- are simply not equipped to handle vintage operations. Perhaps we should pity them, for their experience and wisdom is obviously both "narrow" and "limited".
We denigrate our past if we do not keep the vintage aircraft flying. Each such aircraft is a flying and mobile museum. How shall we understand our present and our future if we do not understand our past?

rosiejerryrosie
12-17-2011, 09:24 AM
Two great suggestions! A list of 'welcoming airports' would be a great incentive to make the looong trip (three fuel stops is a looong trip and it doesn't take very far to qualify if you're flying an airplane with a max fuel capacity of 12 gallons). The decals are a great idea.

steveinindy
12-17-2011, 08:01 PM
with, in effect, a grass overrun area where the older aircraft could touch down

Oh you mean the special F-16 parking area that was debuted this year? ;)

Rick Rademacher
12-17-2011, 08:46 PM
I have been reading this discussion with great interest. Being just a lowly J-3 Cub owner, I must apologize to this group for asking the EAA to let Cubs parked in your reserved area. It only took the EAA staff two seconds to shoot down that idea. I now hope that the parking area reserved for Cubs on this 75 anniversary doesn’t make others unhappy. You see, this won’t happen again until the 100th anniversary of the Cub.

Using www.cubs2oshkosh.com (http://www.cubs2oshkosh.com), we are trying to create a means for Cubs to join with other for the slow flight and note places to stop for food, fuel and overnight stays.

The EAA staff is trying to help us attract over 200 Cubs by adding incentives to those Cub owners who take the time to fly to AirVennture 2012.But again, this will only occur once every 25 years for the Cubs.

And yes, grass would be nice for us too!

steveinindy
12-18-2011, 03:44 AM
Being just a lowly J-3 Cub owner, I must apologize to this group for asking the EAA to let Cubs parked in your reserved area.

Lowly? You kidding me? One of the few low and slow planes I want is a Cub, especially painted as an L-Bird.


It only took the EAA staff two seconds to shoot down that idea. I now hope that the parking area reserved for Cubs on this 75 anniversary doesn’t make others unhappy.

If they need more space, the EAA could always take back that little area occupied most years by that group of WWII reenactors. There's always several Cubs parked back over there behind that anyhow and I think most people would be much more interested in seeing all of the L-bird painted Cubs lined up there next to the rest of the warbirds rather than just a bunch of tents.

Garth Elliot
12-18-2011, 08:33 AM
Taking my previous suggestion a little further, perhaps there should be thought given to a series of publicised definite "flyways" -same as for geese, ducks, swans, whooping cranes etc. Each "flyway" would be like a river with all manner of tributaries leading towards it. This might prove an incentive to airports and FBOs who would like the "interesting" traffic and publicity...and they might get to sell more gas and hangarage etc. It might also be a wonderful (as in "WONDERFUL"!!!) opportunity to gain local attention for smaller airports...and might bring diffuse benefits to the local communities by way of accomodation, restaurants etc. This could continue to raise the EAA profile in "small town America". There would be opportunities for magazine and newspaper articles etc. "The GREAT EAA VINTAGE MIGRATION". (Just thinking out loud here...) There is probably a world of possibilities once people put their minds to it. This might also garner the co-operative attention of the AAA (I was once a member)...so the EAA better get to it lest the AAA beat them to the job? These "flyways" could even be coded with the names of notable "helpers" to those interested in vintage aviation...for example one along the north edge of New York State might be named the "Ed Kastner Vintage Flyway". Ed was a truly great guy and he would have been thrilled! The possibilities are limited only by human imagination. I am sure there are many "local" people -not necessarily widely known- who are loved as much as was Ed Kastner by those who benefited from his knowledge and help. Airfields near national borders could be labelled "Flyway International Portals". The flyways -if considered of sufficient merit- would also lead to the linking up of many people of similar interests/aircraft types.....kind of like the "70 Knotters" tours. Thus the great fly-ins could become enroute grand tours/parties. This thought gets me going - so I might as well go out into the cold and check out my bird while telling it that better times might soon be a-coming...
Perhaps the idea deserves serious consideration?

rosiejerryrosie
12-18-2011, 09:00 AM
Again, Garth, A great idea! It would make not only the destination but the trip a memorable experience. It may take a couple of years to put it all together, but the effort would be well worth it, and it could grow each year as new routes/airports are added. The trip would look like a number of small airport fly ins strung together. The socialization opportrunities are endless...I have a couple of airports in south Central Pennsylvania that we could add to the mix if the project ever got off the ground..

Rick Rademacher
12-18-2011, 04:52 PM
Did someone mention a 70 Knotter trip? I am ready to go! These three pictures were taken on a 2001 trip planned by me. I hate to miss a meal and we didn’t on this trip. I second the notion that more should go on a 70 Knotter type of group flight by spending a whole week flying and having great fun together with other pilots and family. 1295129612971294

Rick Rademacher
12-18-2011, 08:07 PM
The following are pictures from the 2005 70 Knotter trip that I planned. I have been on most, planned a few and recognize that some of the best trips were developed by others. Didn’t make the 2011 trip to Canada because they don’t recognize a sport pilot’s license!
1298129913001301

Garth Elliot
12-19-2011, 07:15 AM
Birds of a feather - flock TOGETHER!!!

Garth Elliot
12-19-2011, 07:26 AM
Birds of a feather - flock TOGETHER!!! I can remember a few years back when the 70 Knotters flew into Brampton, Ontario. I thought it was really neat.
Some day Canada will probably recognize the Sport license - and someday perhaps the USA will recognize Canadian aircraft licensed in the "Owner Maintenance" category here....and in the meantime if we could only get our government here in Canada to accept smaller registration marks so we don't have to have everyone set up as a "flying billboard".....
America perhaps would really make a good move if an Owner Maintenance category was established there.......I had the honour of initiating discussion here on behalf of what is now the RAA (Recreational Aircraft Association.)

Jim Clark
12-19-2011, 11:16 PM
I own a J-3 and I love it. Now having said that please start a thread and don't hijack this one. I asked for ideas to bring back the pre war big round engine antiques to OSH. Does anyone have any input on that?

Rick Rademacher
12-20-2011, 07:55 AM
Sorry again. I was just trying to point out that round engine people might want to have a maximum effort every other year or so. Then, the EAA might be better able to work with the group on incentives.
And, to fly with others to events is much more fun and inviting than to go it alone. The EAA might even provide free web space for that effort as they are for the Cubs at www.cubs2oshkosh (http://www.cubs2oshkosh/).com.
I am one of the few trying to help here. On the RCGroups web site, they are about to pass 20 million posts! Sadly, very few people post anything here.

kneel
01-05-2012, 04:57 PM
Jim,
I am a young pilot (25) and really like the antique airplanes. Especially the Waco Cabin biplanes and the Stinson Reliants. For me I can't afford to pay a mechanic everytime it needs work. I consider myself to be mechanically inclined and could do most of the mechanicing, but I don't have my A&P. I think a way to attract more antiques back to Osh is to set up some sort of antique A&P liscense. This could be a short course. ie: week, month, etc. This could be something similar to the LSA rulings.

Thanks,
Kneel

bowmanandy
04-13-2012, 07:37 PM
Hi Jim,

Sorry to be slow in getting back to you. The 10 hour requirement is a problem
because there is only one other Airsedan flying that I am aware of. It has not
flown recently. It is located in Anoka, Mn. at Golden Wings. The folks there have
been very helpful with our project.

The good news is that by bundling the plane with two others, we have secured
liability insurance. The current plan is to try to bring the plane to the show. The
building it will reside in for the forseeable future is under construction.
This year is the only possibile show for this plane. I hope to meet you at Osh.

Andy Bowman

highflyer
04-23-2012, 08:24 PM
What's sad is that the very "vintage people" who have the money to maintain and fly one of the big pre-war radials are the very same folks who are likely to also have a Malibu or something similar "inappropriate" for Sport Aviation, etc. See the following comment to understand why I say this:


Nonsense. I own one of those "round engine antique" airplanes that you speak of. In fact I own three of them. I used to fly them all regularly also. Then my hangar caught fire and now I am in the process of restoring them all over again. Yes, I restored them myself. I can't afford to hire someone to do work that I can do myself. Wouldn't if I could. Part of the joy of owning these airplanes is in the restoration. Keep them alive for another generation.

Yes, I am getting older. My next physical is due when I am 74. I expect to pass it without any problems. No, I don't own a mirage. Besides my airplanes, my other vehicle is a 1990 Toyota Celica. If I couldn't work on my own airplanes, I couldn't afford to own them. It is a real handicap to jot around the country in a wonderful, comfortable, stable old taildragger that burns $150 an hour in gas and oil and cruises at a resounding 100 knots. With my restricted budget I don't fly as much as I used to do. Can't afford the gas and oil. I had to drop my insurance because the insurance companies became totally unreasonable several years ago. Anything I could do to the airplane and survive I could fix for less than a years insurance cost! Unfortunately, I hadn't expected my hangar to catch fire and reduce all of my airplanes to restoration projects at one time.

Currently I have one of my airplanes flying. It isn't fancy and it doesn't have a round engine, but it does give me something to fly.

In short, I can no longer afford to go to "Airventure" with my airplane, or without it for that matter.

Flyguysr5
06-10-2012, 03:16 PM
I can only tell you why I have quit. Cost! Why is it that if I fly my Aeronca L16 and park it in the warbirds section I get free admission for the week but if I fly my Radial Stinson and park it in the antique area I pay? Either way it is still a very expensive trip but at least I don't feel like a second class citizen.

Jim Clark
06-10-2012, 10:35 PM
Thank you Flyguysr5 for finally shedding a little light on a Warbird perk. I have been asking EAA Staff what perks were offered to Warbirds and never received an answer back. I have spoken with a large number of big round engine flyers over the last year and the one constant I get is, "I just don't feel the love" and I think that hits the nail on the head.

I have run a very successful retail business the last 30 years and let me put something into perspective. When I give a customer who spends a great deal with or recommends my company a special incentive it isn't about the money. Its about how they feel appreciated. I will drop a couple grand to bring my Waco and attend Airventure because I enjoy it. Could we get more big round engine pre war antiques to Airventure if EAA offered a free entry wristband? Absolutely YES! And here is the important part, IT AINT ABOUT THE MONEY, IT'S ABOUT FEELING THE LOVE.

Okay now, we've talked about it, cussed it and discussed it. Now we can see what happens in the antique area. I'll be there, and I wish my invitation were enough to bring everyone back, but the ball is in EAA's court. I hope in the future they do something to encourage the big antique owners to return, but please don't ask me what you should do. This aint rocket surgery.

Jim Clark
07-05-2012, 10:21 PM
In the last week I have spoken to a number of round engine drivers who are planning to bring their 20's and 30's Vintage aircraft to Airventure 2012. The biggest factors mentioned by these owner pilots are 1) Jeff Skiles attending the National Biplane Fly In in Junction City, KS. 2). Rod Hightower attending the American Waco Club Fly In in Creve Coure and 3) The Grass Runway availability at KOSH. Paul said it best when he said about the EAA, "We're not about airplanes, we're about people." When the effort is made to meet, invite and accommodate a group of aviators it doesn't go unnoticed. Looking forward to seeing e everyone at the big show.

steveinindy
07-05-2012, 10:45 PM
Paul said it best when he said about the EAA, "We're not about airplanes, we're about people." When the effort is made to meet, invite and accommodate a group of aviators it doesn't go unnoticed. Looking forward to seeing e everyone at the big show.

Amen Jim. See you in a couple of weeks. Fly safe.

BTBFlyboy
07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
In the last week I have spoken to a number of round engine drivers who are planning to bring their 20's and 30's Vintage aircraft to Airventure 2012.
Jim, we've found that listing (and especially including a picture of) the aircraft pre-registered for our fly-in on our website helps enthuse and encourages others to participate. So maybe a listing (pictures?) per your statement above would help get more "round engine drivers" to AirVenture ??

Brent Taylor

Jeff Skiles
07-07-2012, 06:53 AM
Good idea Brent. In fact a fantastic idea. I'll run it up the flagpole with the people who can make things happen at EAA. Thanks.

Larry and Ilse Harmacinski will be bringing in my Waco cabin for the show (I have to work). I staked out a place for them just yesterday in antique camping where they can watch the airshow under the wing of the YOC. I'll do the same for you Jim, if you like.

I'd like to invite everybody down to the Museum Surplus Artifact Sale. We're getting rid of a lot of stuff that we've squirreled away over the years but will never use. Prop blades off a B-17, full size USAF drones, ejection seats, a Wright R3350, wire wheels, engine parts for everything imaginable, and much, much more. The sale is at the Museum Articaft storage facility which is on the road to the Ford Fly-In Theatre. In fact if you are watching a movie on the screen, turn around and you are looking at the backside of the building. Open 8-2 daily.