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WTTN 16
11-30-2011, 05:31 PM
I was reading an article the other day about texting while flying. Some people suggest that texting while flying is just as dangerous as texting while driving. I would tend to think that texting while driving would be much more dangerous. I say this because vehicles on the road are much closer together than airplanes ever would be. If you look down even for just a couple of seconds you could easily get in an accident. When you are several thousand feet in the air, it is less likely to cause a problem. But aside from my opinion, I would like to get your feedback on this.

steveinindy
11-30-2011, 05:55 PM
I mean...it's not exactly the best idea- especially during critical phases of flight (think 'sterile cockpit' rule)- but then again it's not up there with failing to check the weather, "get-there-itis" or the urge to do low altitude aerobatics either without proper training or in an aircraft not designed for it.

Dana
12-01-2011, 06:19 AM
Well, of course... there are lots of things you can do in a plane at altitude that you can't safely do in a car. But I should point out that it's technically illegal (FCC rules, not FAA) to use a cell phone in any aircraft in flight... not that it's enforced or even enforceable.

Stan
12-01-2011, 06:59 AM
Texting while on autopilot is safe but as Dana pointed out might not be legal or enforceable.

teknosmurf
12-01-2011, 07:18 AM
I just can't resist...
1194

martymayes
12-01-2011, 07:21 AM
Being from another generation, I can't imagine why a pilot would need to text while flying. Is there some scenario where safety of flight might be compromised if you don't get that text sent?

teknosmurf
12-01-2011, 01:54 PM
Is there some scenario where safety of flight might be compromised if you don't get that text sent?

I guess I am not seeing the point here. Is there a scenario where eating a hamburger or taking a trink might compromise the safety of flight? Not likely, and I rate it along the same lines of dangerous. Just like communicating on the radio, you do it when you are free to do so safely.

However, unlike that bottle of water you are drinking that may make you have to pee, a timely text message to ask your buddy where the best place to taxi is for restroom access before you land is very helpful! Especially if you need to land at IWA and are unfamiliar with the grounds ;).

You eat because you have a moment, and you are hungry. You text because you have a moment and you need a ride from the airport.

...remember, aviate first, then navigate, then communicate...THEN text.

That's just my $0.02

jobti
12-01-2011, 02:25 PM
I just can't resist...
1194 And I can't resist either ROFLMAO

rosiejerryrosie
12-01-2011, 03:07 PM
Hi Techno - Does this mean that you ignore the FCC rule about using a cell phone in the air, or is it that the texting such a short burst of xmission that you think it won't bother anything? Your radio not working? The FBO could prolly tell you where the john is...

flyingriki
12-01-2011, 03:20 PM
FCC......Frequently Corrupt Control.....

martymayes
12-01-2011, 07:06 PM
I guess I am not seeing the point here. Is there a scenario where eating a hamburger or taking a trink might compromise the safety of flight? Not likely, and I rate it along the same lines of dangerous.

The question was is there a situation where safety of flight will be compromised if one does NOT text. The science of texting devices and distractions is well documented. Not really something that needs to be debated.



Just like communicating on the radio, you do it when you are free to do so safely.

However, unlike that bottle of water you are drinking that may make you have to pee, a timely text message to ask your buddy where the best place to taxi is for restroom access before you land is very helpful! Especially if you need to land at IWA and are unfamiliar with the grounds ;).

You eat because you have a moment, and you are hungry. You text because you have a moment and you need a ride from the airport.

Otherwise, all I can say is wow, just wow. How did I ever make it through life without texting someone a messsage about where I can pee. Nothing like having an alpha/numeric keypad to replace basic social skills.

gdtmcs
12-01-2011, 11:29 PM
Here is the FAR. Does paragraph (b) item 5 mean that the PIC can determine that it is safe to text?

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—(1) Portable voice recorders;(2) Hearing aids;(3) Heart pacemakers;(4) Electric shavers; or(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

I would say that when I am at 7500 ft on a one hour leg, utilizing flight following, I would feel very safe sending a text.

kscessnadriver
12-02-2011, 01:19 AM
Being from another generation, I can't imagine why a pilot would need to text while flying. Is there some scenario where safety of flight might be compromised if you don't get that text sent?

Yes. I do it many days of the week while I'm flying. In some cases, its the only way to get in touch with my crew, to let them know where I'm at and to find out where they are.

Mike M
12-02-2011, 04:50 AM
Does paragraph (b) item 5 mean that the PIC can determine that it is safe to text?

Yes, if one means, "will it impair the navigation or communication capabilities of my electronic equipment?" But the PIC does not determine if it is legal, and "safe" means more than electronic interference.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/B5C85AE8E38DF676862571DA00529DA4?OpenDocument

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6275

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

http://dwiwatch.org/cell-phone-texting.php

http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Transportation-Accidents/Articles/A0334-Texting-Makes-Driving-23-Times-More-Dangerous

www.dwiwatch.org/A-Comparison-of-the-Cell-Phone-Driver-and-the-Drunk-Driver.pdf (http://www.dwiwatch.org/A-Comparison-of-the-Cell-Phone-Driver-and-the-Drunk-Driver.pdf)

As an EMS pilot whose crews sponge up the results of inattention to task caused by booze, drugs, phone calls, and texting, I tend to agree with those studies. But that's just my opinion. We're each entitled to our own opinions, not our own facts.

Pay attention to the view out the window. Your closure rate with descending opposite-direction traffic at 7500"msl might be 500kts.

Your mileage may vary.

teknosmurf
12-02-2011, 08:09 AM
Otherwise, all I can say is wow, just wow. How did I ever make it through life without texting someone a messsage about where I can pee.

I apologize, I didn't mean to upset anyone with my comments, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there. I was just trying to lighten up the coversation by choosing that reference...just my goofy sense of humor.

If you wan to pick on my extreme scenario, then I'll go the other way...how did any of us make it through life without airplanes at all? But you fly anyway...

I mean loosen up. If you want something more appropriate, then how about the situation I had a few months ago where I needed to meet up with someone in the air...he was flying from another local airport. As we all know GA departures are anything but on time. When he got within a few minutes of my airport he texted me, I drove to the airport, pre-flighted and took off. That way he didn't have to be on a very strict timeline.

What about the time the guy had an electrical failure in flight and texted the tower for instructions. Yes, that was an emergency situation, but it did affect safety of flight ultimately.

BTW, airliners have been using ACARS for 20 years. Yes it started out as an automated text status method only, but quickly grew into an interface in the cockpit for sending short texts similar to emails. In my opinion, cell phone texting is nothing more than poor-mans ACARS.

Frank Giger
12-02-2011, 08:12 AM
Hang up the phone and fly.

Whazzup
Pttrn wrk
Tch n goz?
Lotz Xwing
LOL
Xwind
VFR r0xxers
O Base hld on
No nose up
Crp spin help
Lulz

rosiejerryrosie
12-02-2011, 09:43 AM
Many of ya' all continue to ignore the FCC rule of no cell phone activity in the air, and think it is OK since it is not easily enforcable. Just ask why the rule is in place anyway. Maybe it has to do with the safety of others? Oh, I'm sorry - that doesn't matter in today's 'me first' culture....Sorry....

Joe LaMantia
12-02-2011, 10:36 AM
Frank, LOL! man you crack me up!
Jerry,
I totally get your point, but maybe the guys who make up these rules need to figure out how to enforce them before casting them in concrete, just saying. If there are technical reasons that cell phone transmissions can/do create a danger maybe we should have that information sent around the aviation world. I'd say it's probably pretty safe if your flying IFR with an autopilot, probably not a great idea if your doing low-level aerobatics VFR.

Joe
:cool:

Bill Greenwood
12-02-2011, 11:07 AM
If you are flying a plane and really feel like getting out a little gadget and typing on it, then you must be flying a boring plane or over some awfully boring scenery.
It would seem to be dangerous if you are single pilot VMC, less so if you are an airline pilot IMC at 35, 000 with a copilot.

martymayes
12-02-2011, 11:40 AM
BTW, airliners have been using ACARS for 20 years. Yes it started out as an automated text status method only, but quickly grew into an interface in the cockpit for sending short texts similar to emails. In my opinion, cell phone texting is nothing more than poor-mans ACARS.

Airliners have at least 2 crewmembers where one is always tasked with flying the plane. I think it would be highly unlikely for both crewmembers to be distracted by ACARS messaging. Besides, I can always tell the FO to stay heads up when conditions warrant. It's part of my crew brief.

Bill Greenwood
12-02-2011, 11:50 AM
Ok, I'll admit to being a bit old fashioned and not really excited or up to date on all the latest gadgets. I was under the impression that God gave us thumbs for hitchiking in from a en route airport when stopped by weather.
But I can see at least one critical need for texting possibility in an airliner; if one pilot goes back to the toilet and gets locked in, as happened recently. at least he can send a message up to the cockpit.
I do have a pilot friend who loves his gadgets. His family came up for a ski visit and in the evening he sat on one end of the couch and his teenage daughter sat on the other end while they sent texts to each other.

rosiejerryrosie
12-02-2011, 03:38 PM
I do have a pilot friend who loves his gadgets. His family came up for a ski visit and in the evening he sat on one end of the couch and his teenage daughter sat on the other end while they sent texts to each other.

LOL...Reminds me of my son-in-law...he and my granddaughter text each other from the house to the back yard. I swear I think they have forgotten how to talk to each other. Miss my Mom yelling out the back door ...."Jerrrry...Dinnnnnner". But I guess back in those days immediate communications were not that important. After all, the dinasuers couldn't move all that fast....'cept for the raptors...stay away from those suckers...

Joe LaMantia
12-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Boy can I relate to Bill and Jerry! I have a cell phone which sits on my desk 98% of the time, I only use it when I travel. It's not a "smart phone", I'm waiting for "Fischer-Price" to build one with larger keys! A few years ago I was driving 18 wheelers, they have a keyboard with a built-in screen called "Qual-Comm", it's used to communicate with dispatch. I have been passed on the interstate by drivers typing on the keyboard laying across the steering wheel, head down at 70 MPH! Technology is great, but only when common sense is applied...common sense is what Bill and Gerry grew up around it's not something that should ever go out of fashion!

Joe
:cool:

rosiejerryrosie
12-03-2011, 09:10 AM
Common sense?!? My Gawd...:D

steveinindy
12-03-2011, 08:16 PM
I agree with you there. I don't see why it's that big of a deal to be in constant contact....and I am from the "wired generation".

steveinindy
12-03-2011, 08:20 PM
Yes. I do it many days of the week while I'm flying. In some cases, its the only way to get in touch with my crew, to let them know where I'm at and to find out where they are.

Yeah, but your aircraft is a bit slower than most and even if you collide with something, wouldn't it just bounce off? ;)

steveinindy
12-03-2011, 08:22 PM
If you are flying a plane and really feel like getting out a little gadget and typing on it, then you must be flying a boring plane or over some awfully boring scenery.

That describes most cruise flight in most aircraft. Besides, after you've flown the same route a couple of times, the scenery- unless really spectacular- gets kind of old. The joke around here is that all cornfields look the same, except when they are soybean fields.:P:cool:

Anymouse
12-03-2011, 10:36 PM
Being from another generation, I can't imagine why a pilot would need to text while flying. Is there some scenario where safety of flight might be compromised if you don't get that text sent?

Yes.

Although I think I can safely say that FCC regs did not apply in my scenarios.

rosiejerryrosie
12-04-2011, 08:50 AM
Ya' know...I'm gonna stop trying to convince ya' all that it is best for everyone to follow the rules. Ya' all go ahead and text any time you want. Not me!

MickYoumans
12-04-2011, 11:59 AM
While texting in a plane might be a little safER than in a car, it is still a distraction and can lead to devistating consequences. With that said, on very rare ocassions I have sent very brief texts. Yesterday flying to my son's I sent a text "10 min out" so he would know when my wife and I would arrive. I think that is very different than carrying on a conversation using text messages. I also had my wife in the right seat still looking out for other planes while I was sending the text.

kscessnadriver
12-04-2011, 12:58 PM
Ya' know...I'm gonna stop trying to convince ya' all that it is best for everyone to follow the rules. Ya' all go ahead and text any time you want. Not me! If I didn't text while flying, there are multiple times I would have ended up not being able to land, due to a lack of ground crew. That would have resulted in crashing the aircraft for no reason, other than not texting to the ground to tell them the plan had to change.Quite frankly, its safer for me to text at times.

Janet Davidson
12-04-2011, 06:19 PM
So how did crews manage before texting? Did they keep crashing?

Frank Giger
12-04-2011, 07:06 PM
Okay, seriously, it's a matter of prudence.

For me it would be insanity, since I fly straight VFR below 3,000 AGL.* For someone that's all auto-piloted and more or less monitoring the aircraft rather than flying it, I don't think a short text is going to make the aircraft enter a spin.

I'd equate it with sipping on a cup of coffee or looking at a sectional; one more distraction to be careful of.

I'm also sort of a luddite when it comes to cell phones. I am very conversant with PC's, administer my own webserver, blah blah, but working "smart" phones is bewildering. Mine is the most simplistic flip phone available to our plans, with nice big buttons and simple options.

* Straight VFR is not to be confused with straight and level flight. ;)

martymayes
12-04-2011, 07:32 PM
So how did crews manage before texting? Did they keep crashing?


Obviously, the crew of the Hindenburg didn't send a text to Lakehurst before arrival. :(

Mike M
12-04-2011, 09:49 PM
For someone that's all auto-piloted and more or less monitoring the aircraft rather than flying it, I don't think a short text is going to make the aircraft enter a spin.

winter of '92. no autopilot, but had a copilot in a beech 1900. 400'/3 with blowing snow at KCOS using the ILS landing to the north. first try, waved off at the marker because the needles started drifting. back around, fly it myself this time, everything looking good, then the needles started drifting again. up and around, "want to go to kden?" "no, let's try it one more time." copilot's turn. just before getting to the marker, i dropped the plates book and reached back to pick it up. pax in the first seat behind copilot is dialing his cellphone. copilot says "there go the needles again!" "HANG UP THE @#$% PHONE!" and the copilot says "they steadied back up". after we got to the gate, i asked the guy what he was doing. "calling my wife to let her know we were landing"

your mileage may vary.

kscessnadriver
12-04-2011, 10:46 PM
So how did crews manage before texting? Did they keep crashing?

They were severely limited on operating ranges. Long story short, I'll continue to text while flying. Let the FCC come find me. The FAA sure as heck isn't going to enforce rules from another agency.

Mike M
12-05-2011, 06:54 AM
They were severely limited on operating ranges. Long story short, I'll continue to text while flying. Let the FCC come find me. The FAA sure as heck isn't going to enforce rules from another agency.

Commerical?

teknosmurf
12-05-2011, 07:48 AM
Ya' know...I'm gonna stop trying to convince ya' all that it is best for everyone to follow the rules. Ya' all go ahead and text any time you want. Not me!


As far as I understand it, for our little GA aircraft and not for commerical flights, the FAA says it is up to the pilots discression to determine if equipment is adversely affecting the flight.


ILS landing to the north...there go the needles again!" "HANG UP THE @#$% PHONE!" and the copilot says "they steadied back up".

As someone else stated, prudence is the key. That pax should have been told to keep his phone off...no doubt. The pilot had no way to tell that it would not affect the flight, therefore the rule SHOULD be enforced. Buf for nice VFR, when the pilot has things under control, this doesn't even apply. Heck...I don't even have needles in my plane, therefore the phone can't affect them.

Some could say that those darn needles are more of a distraction than a simple text message. Just use the GPS...oh wait...to much technology and button pushing again?

BTW, I am not advocating people start having conversations either. I have sent maybe 2 or 3 texts the entire time I have been flying. I just hate being limited on something that could be useful when used WITH common sense.

Janet Davidson
12-05-2011, 08:40 AM
They were severely limited on operating ranges

Hmmm - the R34 made it all the way from East Fortune in Scotland across the Atlantic to New York sans cell phone. Tho' they did have a cat on board - maybe it's whiskers were antenna :rollseyes:

justinvon811
12-12-2011, 05:57 PM
This thread is such a big topic and I feel like not enough reason, common sense, or public facts are being used...

I have a two pronged idea about this whole topic so before it get's lengthy, bear with me... I'm one of the newest generations of pilot's, I'll admit, but having over 23 years experience with aviation with everything from flying Super Cubs across the country and landing on anything grass, to landing my Part 121 Jet doing a Cat II approach while talking to New York Approach Control, I'd like to think I have a bit of perspective on aviation. I understand aviation (and this fourm) services a wide age range, and I'm not taking shots at anybody. That being said...

Part 1: Common Sense

Texting is sort of a new (past 5-10 years) trend. Who's going to be more apt with this sort of technology? How about the newer generation... (I'll admit right here, I was not quite out of diapers when Voyager flew around the world) After my own personal attempts at teaching my parents to text, I can safely say (and I think we can ALL agree) that technologies are learned at different rates for different age groups. Some people text better and faster than others, young one's in particular. This one should be simple enough when it comes to flying and texting, but it's not it seems. Ask any 10th grade, high school girl and ask her to text the first page of your favorite novel while not looking at her thumbs or the telephone. I'd almost put money on the fact she could do it in under 3 minutes with 85% grammatical perfection. (More than sufficient for text messages :cool:)

I towed banners for years to build time. Anybody who has ever done that sort of flying know's what I'm talking about and would probably agree on how texting while doing 45 mph in clear and a million weather really helps pass the time when we would fly "8 Hours a day". ;)

Now I'm not saying if you're a 20 hour student pilot, white knuckled, and barely legal to buy tobacco, you could text better than most. Or if you're a several thousand hour pilot, in the soup and getting bounced around to bits, shooting an NDB approach, at night, near water, in a thunderstorm, that you should text at all!! (or even be there!)

This is the common sense, I feel like it shouldn't have to be beat to death. Personally, I feel if it isn't a crucial phase of flight, you don't take 5 minutes to send a one word text message, and feel like safety is not being compromised, have at it! Text til your thumbs bleed!

That leads me to the nay-sayers on some safety issues...

Part 2: The Technology/Safety Issue

Mythbusters is a great show... Probably not a board certified/peer reviewed/super scientific method of fact finding, but still a fairly legitimate source of information. There was an episode where they built a mock cockpit, got together with a local avionics company (for actual aircraft equipment), and tested how cell phone signals interfered. They had a cell phone signal generator and even amplified the cell phone signal 1000x to try and create interference but could still receive the nearby SFO VOR signal.

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_49_cellphones_on_plane.html
(http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_49_cellphones_on_plane.html)http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/db/transportation/cell-phones-interfere-plane-instruments.html
(http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/db/transportation/cell-phones-interfere-plane-instruments.html)
Cell phone on an airplane myth? Busted...

Aside from the theatrics of TV, it's a simple fact of using different frequencies! I'll just regurgitate some private (commercial maybe? I can't remember) pilot information that I'm sure we can all recite from memory ;)

VOR (ILS) Navigation: 108.00-117.95 Mhz (VHF)
Airband Comm Freq: 118.00-137.00 Mhz (VHF) Why don't our voice communications knock out our LOC or Glide slope when we transmit? Duh...
GPS (yes, it uses frequencies): 1575.42 & 1227.60 Mhz

(drum roll please...........)

Cell phones (slightly paraphrased): 700, 800-900, 1300-1500, 1700+ Mhz... All of which in Mhz.

As you can see, NOWHERE near VHF Comm or Nav frequencies... There are some that think new 4G cellphone technology uses frequencies a little too close to the GPS frequencies, and might cause interference (yet to be shown or proven, just hypothesized). That is a topic for another post though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airband
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airband)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range)
To summarize, I feel like texting while flying is all up to the PIC. There will always be cockpit distractions and managing them is part of what we are as pilots. Texting while flying show's nothing to your stick and rudder or overall flying skills, but is something that should be done on a personal basis with safety in mind. I personally text all the time when flying for fun, and it's situational as some people have already discussed. There is nothing about it that is inherently stupid. It's like age old firearms adage...

Gun's don't kill people, people kill people...

rosiejerryrosie
12-13-2011, 08:17 AM
Nice rationalizations, but....still illegal.... (Or do we only follow the rules we want to?)

Joe LaMantia
12-13-2011, 09:16 AM
Justin,
Eloquent case for common sense!
Gerry,
You are correct, it is illegal given the FCC reg's. There is an old saying about America; "a county of laws, poorly written and badly enforced!" If all the laws currently on the books were actually enforced we would need a lot more "enforcers", courts, and jails and higher taxes to pay for it all. If all the states actually stopped all the trucks and reviewed all the log books we'd have to add at least 30% more trucks on the road to deliver the current level of loads. In reality, there are a lot of "rules" that we don't follow because they don't make sense. Politicians write the laws and some hold offices to enforce the laws, these guys all react to public pressure so yes "we only follow the rules we want to" does apply.

Joe
:cool:

justinvon811
12-13-2011, 05:52 PM
Nice rationalizations, but....still illegal.... (Or do we only follow the rules we want to?)

And because the Speed limit on the highway is 65 mph in PA means that you have NEVER driven on the highways at 65+? It's illegal you know...

rosiejerryrosie
12-14-2011, 08:22 AM
And because the Speed limit on the highway is 65 mph in PA means that you have NEVER driven on the highways at 65+? It's illegal you know...

You wouldn't belive me if I said that is true. Would you?
Bottom line - I don't need to text when I'm driving or flying. But then what I have to say is probably not as important as what you have to say that it can't wait until I'm stationary. I wonder how the folks ever got the Constitution writen and passed - they didn't even have telephones !!

teknosmurf
12-14-2011, 09:09 AM
GPS (yes, it uses frequencies): 1575.42 & 1227.60 Mhz

(drum roll please...........)

Cell phones (slightly paraphrased): 700, 800-900, 1300-1500, 1700+ Mhz... All of which in Mhz.



I just wanted to point out that cell phones in the 1300-1500MHz are pretty close to the GPS frequencies (1575.42MHz), and with the roll-off and relative power of each, yes, there could be some problems...think about the issues with Lightsquared right now. Lightsquared is not that close to the GPS frequencies, but they still have major problems.

That said, and each pilot knows his equipment and when it is critical, and can make those determinations. If I don't care if my GPS takes a synch hit, what does it matter?



Nice rationalizations, but....still illegal.... (Or do we only follow the rules we want to?)



Jerrie...for the last time...it's not illegal:

FAR 91.21:
Sec. 91.21

Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other
aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

Part b.5, as long as I (being the PIC) determine it's not going to cause problems with some navigation equipement I am using (which is usually only my eyeballs and a chart) then it is perfectly legal.

Joe LaMantia
12-14-2011, 09:39 AM
As a former truck driver, I can report that it is very hard to exceed the speed limit in company owned fleet trucks, they are all governed around 65. It is possible to go faster if you get on a long downgrade in the mountains...not many drivers will allow it to "run away" you can burnout the brakes and wind-up "over the edge". As for the founding fathers, I think they would be amazed at what happened to the 13 "states" with 13 million people over the last 200 plus years! We have to remember the only constant in nature is change, today we have a "service economy" where new inventions move from "toys for the rich" to necessary items for the average person. Even Thomas Jefferson and his friends put the amendment process into the Constitution, but they didn't envision 50 states with different regional interests. Multi-tasking maybe a big deal in the business world, but the current wave of texting while driving is getting people killed. We will continue to see politicians making it illegal to text while driving, but enforcing that kind of law will remain a weak effort.

I think we have beat this horse to death! Distractions are a major cause of accidents, it's up to us as individuals to stay focused and safe.

Joe
:cool:

martymayes
12-14-2011, 01:20 PM
How timely......the NTSB has weighed in on texting and cell phone use while driving. The two activities should not be simultaneously performed. I think they are correct but there is no doubt a segment of the population who will feel that recommendation is not applicable to them.

rosiejerryrosie
12-14-2011, 02:36 PM
Cell phone on an airplane myth? Busted...

Aside from the theatrics of TV, it's a simple fact of using different frequencies! I'll just regurgitate some private (commercial maybe? I can't remember) pilot information that I'm sure we can all recite from memory ;)

VOR (ILS) Navigation: 108.00-117.95 Mhz (VHF)
Airband Comm Freq: 118.00-137.00 Mhz (VHF) Why don't our voice communications knock out our LOC or Glide slope when we transmit? Duh...
GPS (yes, it uses frequencies): 1575.42 & 1227.60 Mhz

(drum roll please...........)

Cell phones (slightly paraphrased): 700, 800-900, 1300-1500, 1700+ Mhz... All of which in Mhz.

As you can see, NOWHERE near VHF Comm or Nav frequencies... There are some that think new 4G cellphone technology uses frequencies a little too close to the GPS frequencies, and might cause interference (yet to be shown or proven, just hypothesized). That is a topic for another post though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airband
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airband)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range)
To summarize, I feel like texting while flying is all up to the PIC. There will always be cockpit distractions and managing them is part of what we are as pilots. Texting while flying show's nothing to your stick and rudder or overall flying skills, but is something that should be done on a personal basis with safety in mind. I personally text all the time when flying for fun, and it's situational as some people have already discussed. There is nothing about it that is inherently stupid. It's like age old firearms adage...

Gun's don't kill people, people kill people...

And I bethca you don't think that the LightSpeed proposed network doesn't interfer with GPS signals because they are on different frequencies. Can you spell harmonics? Yep guns don't kill people, people texting kill people....

Did your CFI ever rag on you about keeping your head out of the cockpit? Mine did but then he was prolly wrong .. after all he was one of those rare birds... and old pilot...

Janet Davidson
12-14-2011, 03:14 PM
Maybe it is time for this thread to be absorbed in to the "eternal debates in aviation" thread that Frank Giger started?

martymayes
12-14-2011, 03:38 PM
Maybe it is time for this thread to be absorbed in to the "eternal debates in aviation" thread that Frank Giger started?

I doubt it will be an eternal debate. Just a matter of time till a plane crashes and the investigators find out seconds before the pilot was texting. It's inevitable.

Janet Davidson
12-14-2011, 04:36 PM
Really? Texting has been available for 15+ years & no aviation accidents or incidents in all that time.

rosiejerryrosie
12-15-2011, 08:36 AM
Really? Texting has been available for 15+ years & no aviation accidents or incidents in all that time.
Maybe that's because most people have been following the rules....'til now. ;)

teknosmurf
12-15-2011, 09:02 AM
Maybe that's because most people have been following the rules....
You mean by only texting in the cockpit when no navigational aid will be affected (thereby no rules are broken)?

(sorry, apparently I had one last one in me)

Mike M
12-16-2011, 02:49 AM
Jerrie...for the last time...it's not illegal

uh. yeah, it is:

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes
edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/47cfr22.925.pdf

if you don't believe what you read, call and ask them:

1-888-225-5322

i phoned. rosiejerryrosie is right. it's illegal.

Mike M
12-16-2011, 04:35 AM
That pax should have been told to keep his phone off

he was. It was part of the pre-landing checklist required cabin announcement. people who operate by "understanding" not facts often don't comply with rules because they think the rules don't make sense, or don't apply to them, or won't be enforced, or don't have consequences. well, the law of gravity applies to each of us (otherwise why do we have aircraft?) and eventually the ignorant, non-compliant, acting-on-incomplete-understanding gentleman would have realized that after we exhausted the fuel supply. but no, i'm not that dumb. y'see, i'd read the rules about alternative courses of action, and if i hadn't discovered what he was doing, he'd a'bin someplace else costing the airline money to get him and his fellow passengers back to colorado springs. sheesh. just read the rules, do what they say, until research pins down all the FACTS so we can benefit from the wealth of EXPERIENCE and amend the rules if appropriate. aviation, electronics, and avionics aren't political science or democracy. they're actual science, like physics and aerodynamics and other stuff that isn't governed by public opinion polls or rigged voting.

Frank Giger
12-16-2011, 07:33 AM
Of course the nasty little secret about GA is that one can do just about anything without censure until there's a wreck or incident.

Might as well start a thread about wearing swim fins while piloting an aircraft - somebody will come out and say they've been doing it for thirty years without a problem!

rangerofthewest
12-16-2011, 09:55 AM
My opinion on this topic is that it can be dangerous, but it depends. If you are flying in a plane with no auto-pilot, or a glider, then obviously, it's a stupid idea. But in a plane with auto-pilot, it still isn't smart (in event of an emergency), but it isn't as dangerous.

rosiejerryrosie
12-16-2011, 10:00 AM
I just read a quote that may apply here. "Most aviation rules are written in blood" (ie-Most rules come about because of someone else's blood)

FloridaJohn
12-16-2011, 12:28 PM
Besides the potential electrical interference issues, how is texting on a phone different than unfolding a sectional chart, studying the chart/looking for your location, and then folding it back up again?

Seems to me that both actions will divert your attention from flying, but presumably charts are still being used in airplanes.

Frank Giger
12-17-2011, 12:52 AM
I pre-fold my sectional and have it open on my thigh board for easy reference. On the board itself is a quick guide for frequencies & runways for the usual airports in the area.

Years spent as an Artillery Forward Observer makes navigation not so difficult, particularly since I'm usually going less than 70 mph IAS.

rosiejerryrosie
12-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Like Frank, my charts are prepared before I get into the airplane. All I need do is glance down at them and the line I drew during my preflight. Or do most of you preflight while in the air?

martymayes
12-17-2011, 09:50 AM
Maybe that's because most people have been following the rules....'til now. ;)

Well, we don't know that texting hasn't been a factor in any airplane accident. Perhaps it hasn't been cited as such but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Isn't the issue with texting and driving is that the "heads down" time is distracting the person from the task at hand? I'm curious how "heads down" time while texting in an airplane is okay, shouldn't everyone be "seeing and avoiding" other traffic? Texting has absolutely no role in safety of flight like navigating and other things that some are saying is equally distracting.

Sad day for aviation when folks are defending texting while flying.

Frank Giger
12-18-2011, 12:38 AM
Like Frank, my charts are prepared before I get into the airplane. All I need do is glance down at them and the line I drew during my preflight. Or do most of you preflight while in the air?

In my own aircraft I'll take a cue from the Army pilots and write freqs on the inside of the windscreen with an alcohol pen before leaving out.

Then again I'm still concentrating on the Aviate-Navigate parts of flying and Communicating only as absolutely required.

FloridaJohn
12-19-2011, 01:38 PM
I pre-fold my sectional and have it open on my thigh board for easy reference.
So you never fly from one side of the sectional to the other side? :)

Frank Giger
12-19-2011, 11:47 PM
Rarely!

But that's when one buys a second sectional, tapes it to the first, and fold for a quick flip if required!

Bear in mind, though, that I fly a Champ. ;)

patmike
12-20-2011, 05:27 AM
1312

rosiejerryrosie
12-20-2011, 09:33 AM
That's one solution. Another is to first fold your sectional down the middle (lengthwise) and the accordion fold it so that it is one panel wide. From that point, one can see the whole chart by flipping to open, page by page, like reading a book. Need to go to the other side of the chart? Easy - flip it over and open to the correct page..... Easier to demonstrate than it is to explain.

Mark Jarratt
09-21-2013, 09:43 PM
Actually, the FCC only prohibits the operation of ANALOG cell phones in flight. No such restriction on digital phones -- I looked it up on the FCC's Website. The old regulation still stands because the old analog phones could "lock up" several cellular nodes at once if they were elevated high enough. Digital phones do not have this problem. The FAA prohibits inflight cell use on Part 121 carriers.

Downs
09-22-2013, 09:46 AM
I use my cell on the Hurricane. It's in a mount on the left hand side of the cockpit and I use it for foreflight and charts. I also keep a sectional or TAC on my kneeboard along with my VFR flight plan if I'm leaving the immediate area of the field.

fastaviationdata
09-29-2013, 10:37 PM
For me, texting while driving is dangerous than texting while flying. But when flying cellphones are prohibited right?