New Fully Equipped LSA for under $85,000--The promise fullfilled!!??

[Floatsflyer]

:D This directly relates to the Cessna Skycatcher price increase thread. It's from Pipistrel, a Slovenia manufacturer that's been producing a wide range of light aircraft since 1987. The composite ALPHA--check out the the impressively long list of fully equipped included standard features that are usually, if not always, options on other aircraft. And they claim with the same cruise as a 172 and 1000fpm. Someone has seen a different vision, acted upon it coupled with aggressively slashed pricing.

http://pipistrel-usa.com/

Hey, are you listening?: Cessna, Flight Design/CTS, Cubcrafters, Remos, Jabiru, American Legend, Tecnam, Evektor/SportStar, Gobosh, CSA/Sportcruiser, Sportair/Stingsport, Renegade, Arion, Breezer to name but a few----that loud, deafening, clamorous, piercing noise you're collectively hearing is the sound of the fleet feet of fed-up, aggravated customers pounding a pathway to a better value proposition.

[kscessnadriver]

You do realize that from day 1 there have been S-LSA's that have been less than $70,000, right? In fact, right now, there are even S-LSA's that you can buy for less than $40,000. Yet people don't want them, because "they don't look like a new airplane."

Fact of the matter is, manufactures are making $100,000 S-LSA's because that's what the market wants.

[Bob Dingley]

Another one is the Aerotrek made in Indiana. Looks like a good value. http://www.fly-aerotrek.com

Bob

[Floatsflyer]

You do realize that from day 1 there have been S-LSA's that have been less than $70,000, right? In fact, right now, there are even S-LSA's that you can buy for less than $40,000. Yet people don't want them, because "they don't look like a new airplane."

Fact of the matter is, manufactures are making $100,000 S-LSA's because that's what the market wants.


Yes, Virginia, I not only realize that, but I have seen them too over the years. And they're mostly glorified throwbacks to the ultralights of the 1980's and 90's and and hence absurdly overpriced at $70K or under. Additionally, I question construction and materials on some of them. In any event, you are comparing apples and oranges or Porsches and Yugos. The point I'm making is about the value difference between this Alpha and other similarly or far greater priced LSA's with respect to features loaded/fully equipped vs. bare bones basic, construction and claimed performance.

[Joe LaMantia]

Well, it would be great if this aircraft actually comes in at $85K or under, but if you go to their web-site where all their products are offered the model you're describing is just an "artists" rendering not an actual photo of the finished product. Most all the "big" names in the LSA market have started out their product intro with low price hype and come in way over. I looked at the model right below the "Alpha" which is comparable and in production with a base price of 69900 euros, that's about $97K in our currency on a good day. That model is offered as a turn-key LSA and two quick build kits for E-LSA the 400 hr kit has a base price of 59900 euros, converts to about $83K. These are the bare bones basic airplanes with the 80HP Rotex engines. They have a long list of available options and packages for various regions around the world including the USA.

The problem is simply that those of us that would like to own an LSA can't justify this kind of money for what is really exactly what it is called, Light Sport. It's a 2-place short range, low and slow flyer. I can buy a used C-150 for $20K - $25K or spend a few bucks more for a Cherokee 140, unfortunately they don't qualify for the drivers license medical, but if EAA/AOPA are successful with the upcoming proposal for a rule exemption we may actually be able to fly Archers and Skyhawks with the self certification medical process. This may become a big problem for the LSA mfg'rs trying to sell new products at these prices.

Joe
:cool:

[kscessnadriver]

Yes, Virginia, I not only realize that, but I have seen them too over the years. And they're mostly glorified throwbacks to the ultralights of the 1980's and 90's and and hence absurdly overpriced at $70K or under. Additionally, I question construction and materials on some of them. In any event, you are comparing apples and oranges or Porsches and Yugos. The point I'm making is about the value difference between this Alpha and other similarly or far greater priced LSA's with respect to features loaded/fully equipped vs. bare bones basic, construction and claimed performance.

So basically, you're one of the people that complain about the $100K S-LSA's, but then complain that the cheaper S-LSA's aren't really airplanes. Ah, I see it now, you want the $100,000 airplane for $20,000. Good to see logic applies

[rosiejerryrosie]

There are a number of good airplanes available for under $20,000. Not fancy, minimal bells and whistles, but at 72 years old you can't complain about it's maintainability

;)

[Floatsflyer]

So basically, you're one of the people that complain about the $100K S-LSA's, but then complain that the cheaper S-LSA's aren't really airplanes. Ah, I see it now, you want the $100,000 airplane for $20,000. Good to see logic applies


Do you work for the government? You appear to have an expertise, at best, in not comprehending what people are actually saying/writing. At worst, you twist and spin doctor my thought line and intention to form your own conclusion.:confused:

[malexander]

Do you work for the government? You appear to have an expertise, at best, in not comprehending what people are actually saying/writing. At worst, you twist and spin doctor my thought line and intention to form your own conclusion.:confused:



I agree with you floats. KC sounds like money's no object. I've said for a long time now that the prices for these lsa's are way too high. I haven't figured out yet what a new airplane is supposed to look like. After all, an airplane, new or old, has to look like, well, an airplane. Right?

Marshall Alexander

[kscessnadriver]

There are a number of good airplanes available for under $20,000. Not fancy, minimal bells and whistles, but at 72 years old you can't complain about it's maintainability

;)

Exactly. But people believe that they are entitled to a shiny new airplane for the same money. People don't understand that there are costs involved with building an airplane. And then there's those who feel the LSA thing was meant to make cheaper airplanes.

[Frank Giger]

And then there's those who feel the LSA thing was meant to make cheaper airplanes.

Precisely.

One can't have it all!

I trained in the FlightDesign CTLS, one of the two most popular "modern" LSA's out there. It goes for around 100K (starting; keep adding options for more!), and I can see why.

Composite construction.
Glass panel.
Auto pilot.
Trim on every control.
Uber GPS setup.
Top of the gross weight for LSA (I always smirk when I see an exact 1,320 pounds gross in a POH).
Top of the allowable max continuous speed for LSA (slowed by prop, but remember it's the POH recommended Vh, not the top speed, also perfectly matching the limit set forth by the LSA rules).

It's a two seat little hot rod. The owner has a PPL and uses it for serious cross the country cross-countries (and defrays some of the cost by making it available for training when he doesn't use it) for business and it suits his needs perfectly. It's also great for weekend get-aways for him and his wife.

It is not a very good "goofing about" plane, as it's typical cruise is 72-85 knots....too fast for me to really enjoy looking at the scenery.

But for it's design purpose - the tricked out Mercedes Coupe of the skies - it would be a good seller if LSA rules didn't exist.

The price tag matches.

I'm inclined towards the bottom end of the LSA design parameters - low and slow two seaters built for purely recreational flying, and actually prefer steam gauges. 100K is rediculous for such a plane IMHO, but the Carbon Cub guys seem to have found quite a few people that disagree with me.

I really didn't understand the different endorsements for Sport Pilots for aircraft with a Vh greater than 87 knots and those with one below that, but when one thinks about how the designs have shaken out it makes sense. It's also a sort of cost line.

[Joe LaMantia]

Guys,
There's a nice article on the CTLS in the December issue of AOPA pilot, beautiful little airplane with a "base price" of $139800, the price "as tested" was $160165. If you have the $$ and it fits your mission then it may be your solution. It always comes down to knowing your mission before you start dreaming, then looking at your budget and narrowing down to what's available. All new aircraft are pricy, but most hold their value well over time as long as they're maintained. Frank and I have the same mission type and budgets so the used market is still a good value for us. I have been club flying for years, it's cheap and I have access to two different mission types, but I still dream of owning my own slow flyer some day.

Joe
:cool:

[Floatsflyer]

Exactly. But people believe that they are entitled to a shiny new airplane for the same money. People don't understand that there are costs involved with building an airplane. And then there's those who feel the LSA thing was meant to make cheaper airplanes.

It has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement(really!) but rather the intuitiveness and knowledge of knowing the cost differences between FAA standard certification and LSA certification. The former is an onerous and obscenely expensive undertaking. The certified manufacturers set acquisition prices at high levels in order to recoup the $multi, multi-millions they are forced/obligated to spend to certify and produce. The ASTM LSA certification model/requirements are a pittance comparatively. It was a far more economical and time-saving model used by design to dramatically bring down costs. LSA, like their older brothers, have the same right to recoup, but such costs must be reflective of the actual costs incurred and in my opinion, I don't believe that's the case.

[Floatsflyer]

Exactly. But people believe that they are entitled to a shiny new airplane for the same money. People don't understand that there are costs involved with building an airplane. And then there's those who feel the LSA thing was meant to make cheaper airplanes.

It has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement(really!) but rather the intuitiveness and knowledge of knowing the cost differences between FAA standard certification and LSA certification. The former is an onerous and obscenely expensive undertaking. The certified manufacturers set acquisition prices at high levels in order to recoup the $multi, multi-millions they are forced/obligated to spend to certify and produce. The ASTM LSA certification model/requirements are a pittance comparatively. It was a far more economical and time-saving model used by design to dramatically bring down costs. LSA, like their older brothers, have the same right to recoup, but such costs must be reflective of the actual costs incurred and in my opinion, I don't believe that's the case.

[Joe LaMantia]

Floatsflyer,

I will agree with your statement that the ASTM LSA certification is less costly, but I don't think it is a large piece of the price. Here's my thumbnail cost analysis using Van's RV-12. The Standard Kit is priced a tad over 63K. That covers everything but paint and Van says it takes between 700 hours to 900 hours to complete. I'll use 800 hours for this estimate and $60/hr, a fairly low ball variable mfg rate. That adds $48K to the value without paint, so the RV-12 is now sitting at $111K. The base CTLS is just under $139K, that $28K difference has to cover not only the investment in LSA certification, but all the molds and tooling required to build the airframe. In Van's case he can spread his investment in equipment over all his kits; RV's 7,8,9,10, & 12. He's been in business for a long time and has made a big investment in CAD/CAM that has paid big dividends. The RV-12 gets a big benefit from previous investments, something that FlightDesign doesn't have. Yes, $28K is a big difference, but the economic reality of aircraft mfg. makes $100K plus products normal in this market. Let's not forget that all business ventures have to make a profit to stay in business, and despite high prices there have been a lot of "mergers", "re-organizations", and bankruptcies within the aviation world. That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Joe
:cool:

[Floatsflyer]

[QUOTE=Joe LaMantia;6879]Floatsflyer,

I will agree with your statement that the ASTM LSA certification is less costly, but I don't think it is a large piece of the price. Here's my thumbnail cost analysis using Van's RV-12. The Standard Kit is priced a tad over 63K. That covers everything but paint and Van says it takes between 700 hours to 900 hours to complete. I'll use 800 hours for this estimate and $60/hr, a fairly low ball variable mfg rate. That adds $48K to the value without paint, so the RV-12 is now sitting at $111K. The base CTLS is just under $139K, that $28K difference has to cover not only the investment in LSA certification, but all the molds and tooling required to build the airframe. In Van's case he can spread his investment in equipment over all his kits; RV's 7,8,9,10, & 12. He's been in business for a long time and has made a big investment in CAD/CAM that has paid big dividends. The RV-12 gets a big benefit from previous investments, something that FlightDesign doesn't have. Yes, $28K is a big difference, but the economic reality of aircraft mfg. makes $100K plus products normal in this market. Let's not forget that all business ventures have to make a profit to stay in business, and despite high prices there have been a lot of "mergers", "re-organizations", and bankruptcies within the aviation world. That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Joe
:cool:[/QUO



Thanks for your analysis, Joe. I can appreciate the thought process that went into it. But I'm not sure that using the RV-12 is a good example because it's not a factory built S-LSA. If it was, perhaps economies of scale, assembly line methodologies and Vans accumulated manufacturing expertise as well as technology investments in place might all come into play to offer it at a lower cost. At the end of the day, aircraft manufacturers like all companies who provide a product or service have their own cost structures to contend with. Lower the costs, lower the price point for the consumer or so the theory/practice goes. Pipistral has obviously done just this. This is what creates competition, eliminates collusion and anti-trust. Example: How does Southwest Airlines almost always offer airfares far lower than United? Their cost structure is less. Wouldn't it be great if the big oil companies actually competed with one another!

[kscessnadriver]

Example: How does Southwest Airlines almost always offer airfares far lower than United? Their cost structure is less. Wouldn't it be great if the big oil companies actually competed with one another!

They don't. They used to and have people conditioned to think the continue to do so.

In any case, the search for an LSA that people want under $60K is a never ending one. Materials are never going to be cheap enough for that to happen.

[Bill Greenwood]

KS, that's baloney. Southwest is almost always going to be cheaper than United. I often fly from Denver to Texas, two of the choices are United and Southwest, so I compare and know the fares. There are adds on prices that really run up the United fare also, for instance the $25 to check even one bag, and the $150 penalty if you need to change the date of your flight or even the time of day on United. On Southwest you get full credit, and no charge for the changed time unless the fare has gone up.
There are two other factors that favor SWA, they people that work for them are nicer, seem to like their jobs better, and their safety record is better, there has never been a single fatality to a passenger on SWA all these years( they did have one to a person on the ground, not a passenger).
I don't work for either airline, but I do have stock in SWA, used to be a great investment, not so good anymore, but still better than many airlines.

[Joe LaMantia]

Floatsflyer,

My initial post on this thread tried to point out that the $85K "target" offering on the Alpha is just hype. I agree that comparing an E-LSA with a S-LSA is apples and oranges, but it does offer some insight into the cost structures and provokes some thought. Here's a bit more, check-out the Virus SW model on their web-site, this is not some design concept rendering, but an actual product they are currently producing. It is offered as a turn key model with an 80HP engine for 73K EUROS, that's $103K using $1.40 exchange. This aircraft looks very similar to the Alpha with a wing span thats about 7 inches longer. Since we don't have access to their actual mfg costs, or detailed specs on the two models I am forced to "jump" to the conclusion that the Alpha will be priced in that ballpark.

Yes, competition is generally a good thing, and SW Airlines has been used as a case study for years. When Pipistral starts delivering the "Alpha" model to customers in the US for $85K, I'll become a believer.

Joe
;)

[Floatsflyer]

When Pipistral starts delivering the "Alpha" model to customers in the US for $85K, I'll become a believer.

Joe
;)[/QUOTE]

Me too Joe, me too. Pipistral says they'll have the Alpha at Osh next year. Let's meet up at their booth to see if promises do come true.

[martymayes]

Materials are never going to be cheap enough for that to happen.

Really? So why is it the same quantity of "materials" can be used to build a boat and the sale price will be quite a bit less that for an airplane? Obviously, the sale price reflects more than just the cost of materials.

[jobti]

Anybody care to make book on what will happen to the price of used c150/152s or Cherokee 140s if in fact the proposal that EAA and AOPA plan to forward concerning the "driver's license medical" DOES take effect? :(

[Floatsflyer]

Anybody care to make book on what will happen to the price of used c150/152s or Cherokee 140s if in fact the proposal that EAA and AOPA plan to forward concerning the "driver's license medical" DOES take effect? :(

Logic and market forces says you could be right so I'll take some of that action. However, I thought the same thing would happen to the used Cessna SE market when Cessna went back to making new SE's back in the mid-90's....didn't happen.

[Joe LaMantia]

I don't think the proposal for the drivers license medical will impact pricing on any used aircraft. As I read the article on that subject it would cover fixed-gear singles up to 180HP, day VRF with only one passenger,that means you can fly Archers and Skyhawks under the rule as well. There are plenty for sale and a lot more sitting in hangers whose owners fly them less then 10 hours a year! These are still certified aircraft that are more costly to maintain then an Experimental or even a S-LSA. What it means to me is that I save all the FAA paperwork, cost, and lost time waiting for an OK to fly.

Joe
:cool:

[Michael-Coates]

Hello guys, Michael Coates from Pipistrel USA here (EAA671189) and happy to come across your thread. I don't know why there are always a couple of unbelieving people using the anonymity of the Internet to hide behind with their silly claims.

We have quoted the price of an aircraft of $85,000, when we sell the aircraft to you we enter into a sales agreement which locks the price at the time you pay your deposit. $85,000 will give you the exact aircraft which we have published on our website with all of the standard features listed. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.... A contract is a contract and $85,000 is the full and final flyaway price.

This is not planned to be any introductory seller and it is not a switch and bait exercise. If you had bothered to read any of the information associated with the different aircraft you would understand that the Virus SW is a completely different aircraft and much more expensive to manufacture although it comes out of the same airframe molds..... The Virus SW because of the higher flight speeds (up to 148 kn cruise when not registered in the LSA category) is a complete honeycomb manufacture whereas the standard Virus Aircraft and the Pipistrel ALPHA Trainer are just carbon fibre.

Many people have asked how can we sell the aircraft so cheaply.....

It is purely based on a numbers game and the benefits of operating a true production line with identical plane after plane after plane.

All of the other Pipistrel aircraft models are manufactured when ordered, each one is unique and different and has different instrumentation and configuration. This costs money to do on an aircraft production line because everything is always different.

The Pipistrel ALPHA Trainer configuration is cast in stone, there can be no changes to its configuration whatsoever so the factory then have the confidence in being able to forecast purchasing for the different Avionics and materials needed to manufacture the aircraft because they know they are going to be building 10 each month for the next two years as an example, they can go to the different suppliers and ask for a better price on 10 items to be delivered each and every month for the next two years and so on. The Pipistrel ALPHA Trainer is the exact same aircraft which Pipistrel are building for the Indian Army with an order now of more than 200 units, so now it is easy to see how the benefits in a true production line with identical manufacture can flow through to the end users at a decent price.

I would be happy to accept anybody's deposit with a guaranteed delivery date and a guaranteed delivered price of $85,000 to the new Pipistrel ALPHA Trainer.

One thing that you should understand about Pipistrel is they are not in the business of vapourware or hype. Look in the latest edition of the EAA sport aviation magazine and you will see that Pipistrel are featured on nine different pages. They were the first people in the world to fly an electric two seat aircraft, they were the first people in the world to fly an electric four seat aircraft, they were the first people in the world to circumnavigate the globe in an ultralight registered aircraft solo without assistance and they are the first at so many different things that it is sometimes hard to keep up.

I would encourage you to go to this website http://www.worldgreenflight.com/ and follow a Pipistrel aircraft which has just left the factory flying around the world westbound including over the top of Mount Everest and also visiting Antarctica..... tomorrow he will be leaving Dakar in West Africa and flying across the Atlantic Ocean to land in Brazil! some nearly 2000 odd miles and the equivalent distance of New York to Phoenix Arizona without landing, without refuelling and without assistance!

enjoy

[Bill Greenwood]

I know very little about a "Pipistral"; just looked at the website and it looks a bit like a lesser genric verison of a Cessna 160.
For those that do believe, I hope they do bring lots of them to the US for $85k.
However, what have you really got? A company in Slovania that is asking for deposits and then you'll have a contract for this.
Hey, it might work out, if you just believe. I never saw the real Easter Bunny but I did get some candy eggs.
And what if it does not work out? What are your rights and realistic actions against a company in Eastern Europe if you money is gone?
If you make a deposit with Cessna, they should be required to hold it in a separate escrow account in a U S bank,and you may have a right to a refund if the contract is not met.
Will is be that way with these folks? I'd talk to a lawyer and look very carefully at a proposed contract before I sent any money abroad. And I'd make sure the deposit is only a small amount of the purchase price. Let the company build the plane on their dollar before they ask you to pay for promises.

[Michael-Coates]

If you want a cessna or CT or any other aircraft you pay a deposit and then pay a final payment when the aircraft is delivered. If we have aircraft in stock you can just make one final payment. All of this crap about money in Europe etc etc is just stupidity and shows how much you guys know. Just look in the latest edition of the EAA sport aviation magazine and you will see that nine pages, yes 9 full pages are dedicated to Pipistrel, another two sections in the same edition have the Pipistrel aircraft highlighted.

I guess it doesn't really matter what I say to some of you guys other than you should not be pilots with such tunnel vision !

[Bill Greenwood]

How many pages of publicity were devoted to Eclipse, B D or other aircraft where the hype exceeded the results?
And Mr. Coates, what is your business background?Have you ever produced and sold any other airplanes?
How about the other people behind Pipistrel? What are their business histories?
Are there financial statements available for this company or just your "guarantee?
And you list an EAA number, how long have you been a member of EAA?

[rwanttaja]

If you want a cessna or CT or any other aircraft you pay a deposit and then pay a final payment when the aircraft is delivered. If we have aircraft in stock you can just make one final payment. All of this crap about money in Europe etc etc is just stupidity and shows how much you guys know. Just look in the latest edition of the EAA sport aviation magazine and you will see that nine pages, yes 9 full pages are dedicated to Pipistrel, another two sections in the same edition have the Pipistrel aircraft highlighted.
Umm...Michael, you're new here in this forums, but you should know there has been considerable discussion whether whether advertising dollars are driving the editorial coverage in Sport Aviation. I personally don't believe that's the case, but you should be aware that arguing the quality of your product based on the number of pages it appears in the magazine might not get the response you're hoping for....

Ron Wanttaja

[Mike M]

Another one is the Aerotrek made in Indiana. Looks like a good value. http://www.fly-aerotrek.com

Bob

Indiana? I followed the link:

"The Aerotrek A220 and A240 are factory-built two-seat aircraft manufactured by Aeropro CZ in Europe. "

[rosiejerryrosie]

All of this crap about money in Europe etc etc is just stupidity and shows how much you guys know. .......

I guess it doesn't really matter what I say to some of you guys other than you should not be pilots with such tunnel vision !

WOW! Now there's a new and novel sales approach! How about toning down the personal attacks?

[Michael-Coates]

Umm...Michael, you're new here in this forums, but you should know there has been considerable discussion whether whether advertising dollars are driving the editorial coverage in Sport Aviation. I personally don't believe that's the case, but you should be aware that arguing the quality of your product based on the number of pages it appears in the magazine might not get the response you're hoping for....

Ron Wanttaja

We do not advertise in the magazine so there is no addvetorial content, heck, Pipistrel just won the richest ever prize given in aviation and won the NASA / CAFE Challenge for the third time in a row. The only payments that we make to the EAA is for our sites at EAA air venture each year.

[Michael-Coates]

How many pages of publicity were devoted to Eclipse, B D or other aircraft where the hype exceeded the results?
And Mr. Coates, what is your business background?Have you ever produced and sold any other airplanes?
How about the other people behind Pipistrel? What are their business histories?
Are there financial statements available for this company or just your "guarantee?
And you list an EAA number, how long have you been a member of EAA?

Hello Bill, let's answer the questions you have asked.

Self-employed full-time selling aircraft since 1992. In different markets I represent different manufacturers including Pipistrel, TL ultralight, Savage CUB, Allegro and X-Air I am also indirectly involved in several others aircraft representations behind the scenes and I am also the owner of XCOM Avionics.

We are our own stand-alone company and represent these products in different markets. We are not the manufacturer of these aircraft only a representative.

The company Pipistrel has been going since 1985, they are major aviation players throughout the world and last year they won the European business awards beating other companies like Airbus, Siemens etc....

At the moment the Pipistrel Taurus G4 has been nominated for the 2012 design of the year by the main Museum in London, we have an aircraft flying around the world for the second time unassisted. Popular science magazine declares the Taurus G4 among the top 10 innovations of 2011, Pipistrel were the first company to fly a two seat electric aircraft, they were the first company to fly a four seat electric aircraft, they have produced the largest output electric aircraft ever flown, they have been awarded the Lindbergh prize for the best electric aircraft, they have won the Paris to Madrid green air challenge. The Taurus electro received a gold medal from the European industrial design Museum, the Sinus was awarded motor glider of the year in 2010, they were involved in the hydro-genius which was the first hydrogen fuel cell aircraft to ever fly. In 2008 Pipistrel were in the top 10 innovations by popular science magazine and I can go on but I think you get the background and innovation of the company from this information.

Additionally, Pipistrel are one of the greenest companies in Europe producing their own power and the only waste leaving the factory is sewage, they are not even connected to the electricity grid, none of the contaminated air from the factory which includes the spray booths and sending areas of the leaves the factory to contaminate the environment.

Toyota uses Pipistrel as the launching platform for all of the new Lexus and Prius electric cars released in Europe, and I have been an EAA member since 1997. Hope this answers all of your questions

[Michael-Coates]

WOW! Now there's a new and novel sales approach! How about toning down the personal attacks?

It was not meant to be a personal attack, it is just frustrating to read information from people which know nothing about what they are talking about!..... as an example, if you buy a Mercedes in the USA do you think or your payments go directly to Germany ?

[Bill Berson]

Additionally, Pipistrel are one of the greenest companies in Europe producing their own power and the only waste leaving the factory is sewage, they are not even connected to the electricity grid, none of the contaminated air from the factory which includes the spray booths and sending areas of the leaves the factory to contaminate the environment.


Not connected to the grid??
Does the factory shut down on cloudy, windless days?

[Michael-Coates]

Not connected to the grid??
Does the factory shut down on cloudy, windless days?

Pipistrel store the energy they need for evening use, bad weather etc. The complete factory can actually run for around three days (the equivalent of) in total darkness and then is all else fails they can start their own biofuel generator. Having said this in the six or seven years the factory has been in operation like this they have only used the generator for a few hours on its regular once per month test run.

to find out more about the building please go to this link http://www.pipistrel.si/top-quality/ecolution-our-philosophy passover the bit at the top of the page which talks about aircraft and then have a look at the building information about one third of the way down the page. Total innovation!

[steveinindy]

The composite ALPHA--check out the the impressively long list of fully equipped included standard features that are usually, if not always, options on other aircraft. And they claim with the same cruise as a 172 and 1000fpm. Someone has seen a different vision, acted upon it coupled with aggressively slashed pricing.

Ah....so to keep prices low, they decided to slash the budget for aesthetics. That thing is so ugly that it remind me about the old joke about what do a fat girl and a moped have in common.



There are a number of good airplanes available for under $20,000. Not fancy, minimal bells and whistles, but at 72 years old you can't complain about it's maintainability

Amen to that Jerry. The only LSAs I'd be caught in are the older models or a copy of one of them. Everything else just has this strange sperm with wings and a tail aesthetic I can't find appealing.



as it's typical cruise is 72-85 knots....too fast for me to really enjoy looking at the scenery.

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: Come again? You're joking.....right Frank? Any slower and you'll have to start worrying about what would happen if you take a birdstrike from behind. ;)


When Pipistral starts delivering the "Alpha" model to customers in the US for $85K, I'll become a believer.


My thoughts exactly.

[Bill Greenwood]

Pipistrel. Pro and con:
Pro, it seems that the factory in Slovenia has been in business for over 10 years and has produced and sold a number of planes, especially gliders.
They are listed in the current issue of PLANE AND PILOT as in the top 20 LSA designs.
I don't think this current model, the Alpha is produced yet.
If if can really be sold in the U S, complete and flying for $86,000 it may find some customers. Maybe time will tell.
I don't know of any negative info on the sales rep Mr. Coates, could not find him on Goggle and take it that he is not the former NASA head.
I am a glider pilot, don't know much about their planes, but I'll check.
Mr. Coates says he is an EAA member since '97 so maybe he did not just join to sell these planes.

The middle ground: I don't have any use for a sort of Cessna lite, but maybe some flight schools do. And there are people who have to have the latest new thing, just like granite counter tops, even if it really works no better than what came before. Just being new will draw some students, especially younger ones.
Now it is not very high performance and for $86k one can buy a good used 172,an ok 182, or even a Mooney 201 and have a real useful airplane, but of course not an Lsa. $86 K would buy you several of the best Cubs or Champs on the market, or a new Aerotrek which is a flying a tested design, sort of Cub like.

Con: The big negative factor here as far as I can see is that while it may go just fine. What if it doesn't?
You are asked to put down real U S dollars, I think $15,000 about 18% of the purchase price, a larger % portion than it takes to buy a house in most states. What do you get for this? You get a "contract" which is really just a promise. And as for a I can tell that promise comes from a factory in a former Iron Curtain country, one a pilot I know had to defect from to get her freedom.
Maybe they are all democratic now and are the good guys and wouldn't think of abscounding with some customers capitalist dollars. But again, what if they do? They've got your money and you've got their promise, not exactly a fair value trade. I don't think those funds are going to be in held in escrow in any U S bank until the plane is built and ready for sale here.
The plane might be produced and delivered just as promised. But the price could go up, as exchange rates change or our FAA makes them change some design part, there are a number of maybes. Shipping cost may go up.
You'd have to talk to a lawyer and don't take Mr. Coates or anyone's word, really look at and examine the written contract. In the end I doubt if a U S buyer is going to have any rights if the contract by a co in Slovenia in not fulfilled. I think you'd be "turning the other cheek to the Chechs", if i may make a little pun.
And if as Mr. Coates says, they just won a $1.35 Million U S D, why do they need the customer to do their financing?

[Racegunz]

Supposedly you can get a new Luscombe 8a variant for around 85,000 they sure look nice with that radial too! ( I still can't afford one)it's really about supply and demand, and regulation ,if you want an airplane at working class prices the route you will have to take is ...... build it! The future of aviation is that it is in decline, at least GA, just like many other over regulated activities, but there are still avenues for the hobbyist that's what EAA is about.

[n1acguy]

I think the LSA price being too high is why that market hasn't taken off as expected. Of course everybody wants a well equipped plane, but not that many of those who want one can afford one. I'm gonna have to stay with my paid for Skyhawk as long as I can still pass a medical, but it sure would be nice not to have to report to the sky Gods every time I get a fart stuck sideways.
That being said, and as already pointed out, the Pipstrel isn't gonna be any less than the competition once you get it out the door. Unless our dollar starts doing a lot better that won't change either.

[Hal Bryan]

Guys, this thread has run its course, and I'm having to spend way too much time reminding people to be civil and have a discussion without insults and name-calling. Time to move on.