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View Full Version : Landing - or, rather, traffic - patterns....



Frank Giger
03-26-2018, 01:25 AM
Like almost everybody, I was trained on the standard rectangular traffic and landing pattern.

It's predictable - great for avoidance, as one knows where to look for other planes.
It's easy to learn - it's, again, predictable.
It's easy to test - see the two above.

For big ol' fast aircraft like a C172 or a Baron it still makes sense.

For my tiny little slow aircraft, though, I took some advice from a zillion hour Air Force pilot and turned those two corners into one big half circle.

Okay, not so big for me, but the turn to base and the turn to final are one continuous turn. In my biplane I can keep an eye on the runway the whole time and adjust as needed.

The FAA is looking into this as well, as they think it may solve some of the infamous turn-to-final-spin crashes.

Now, then, though I could fly a really close in pattern, I still follow the standard pattern altitude and distances on the downwind, and make two calls on that half circle - one for turn to base, and one for final. It is a bit shorter for this than a lot of folks, but I'm only doing 45-50 miles an hour.

Your thoughts?

rwanttaja
03-26-2018, 09:14 AM
I think you're right on, there. I've heard of other aircraft using this circling approach for visibility reasons, usually, like you, for visibility reasons. I like your conventional "base" and "final" calls as well, despite their not being discrete entities. The call is to help people figure out where to look. If you told them the truth most would be confused anyway.

I still fly a conventional rectangular pattern, but I'm an ol' squarehead who pays $5 for haircuts ($1 per side). I fly downwind at the "conventional" distance, but when possible, do cut base and final pretty short.

When using the CTAF at my home field, I often give a geographical reference to my base/final position, too.... "turning base 1/2 out," "turning base over Fred Meyer," "Short final over Lowes'", etc.

Ron Wanttaja

gbrasch
03-26-2018, 10:00 AM
When using the CTAF at my home field, I often give a geographical reference to my base/final position, too.... "turning base 1/2 out," "turning base over Fred Meyer," "Short final over Lowes'", etc.

Ron Wanttaja
Recent AOPA safety seminars have been very critical of that practice. Pilots from other areas don't know "Fred Meyer".

waltermitty
03-26-2018, 10:03 AM
I use a circular approach flying the Citabria when no one else is flying like today, 900' ceiling, flying downwind at 500', or when going into little grass strips.

WLIU
03-26-2018, 11:15 AM
As noted previously, in a lot of biplanes a continuous 180 turn from downwind to flare allows keeping the runway in sight. In my Pitts S-2A, if I try to fly straight in, an entire 6000'x150' runway will disappear under the nose. Have to fly down final crabbed if a tower needs a rectangular pattern. In formation, we fly a 1 mile initial leg over the final at pattern altitude then break at the numbers into 360 overhead turns to flare. Gets multiple airplanes on the ground fast and easy.

The airport is where everyone converges. Slow, fast, small, big, talking, and nordo. Have to keep the Mark 1 eyeballs watching out for the other folks.

Best of luck,

Wes

rwanttaja
03-26-2018, 12:03 PM
Recent AOPA safety seminars have been very critical of that practice. Pilots from other areas don't know "Fred Meyer".

I understand, and do feel a bit peeved when I fly somewhere else and they make similar local calls.

However, if it's a choice between giving no position information vs. precise location, I'd prefer the precision. My field has a very active helicopter training operation, and I'd just as soon the 2-3 R-22s in the pattern have a better idea of where I'm at...and vice-versa, since they tend to fly closer patterns. I'd just as soon let them know I'm NOT on a 2-mile final like the other fixed-wing traffic they commonly cut off.

Denying what might be useful information to locally-based aircraft in the pattern because the rare visitor might not "get it" doesn't seem logical.

I also tend to give distances (e.g, "turning base about a half-mile out", "On a three-quarter mile final") but peoples' abilities to judge ranges varies too much.....

Ron "Oh, and it got your weight wrong, too" Wanttaja

Bill Berson
03-26-2018, 12:38 PM
The helicopter should be flying a different pattern or no pattern that avoids the airplanes.

rwanttaja
03-26-2018, 12:43 PM
The helicopter should be flying a different pattern or no pattern that avoids the airplanes.

They don't at my field. Same pattern as fixed wing, except slightly closer-in than many) and slightly lower. In addition:

1. The instructors in the helicopters turn off their radios when the frequency is busy, as they claim it is too distracting. Their management has defended this practice, in writing, to the airport board.

2. The instructors have claimed, on the radio, that they have priority over "weekend pilots" (their term) and thus can perform hover instruction on the sole runway for minutes at a time. "Our students are paying thousands of dollars for instruction......"

Don't get me started about helicopters.....

Ron "Fox Two" Wanttaja

Bill Berson
03-26-2018, 01:09 PM
It seems some helicopter schools ignore 91.126.

waltermitty
03-26-2018, 02:03 PM
I'm a weekend pilot who flies just about every day weather permits. I try to get out of the way of pilots flying for a purpose.

DaleB
03-26-2018, 02:12 PM
I try to get out of the way of pilots flying for a purpose.
Yep. I figure, more time flying is more time flying. And as long as Frank or Ron don't show up, I've probably got about the lowest cost per hour of anyone in the pattern. So, if taking a lap or two around the lake, or diverting for a few more minutes of sightseeing, or extending my downwind or whatever lets the pattern empty out a little, I'm fine with that.

Ron: Yeah. Hover practice over the runway would prompt me to say something, for sure. Plenty of soybean fields around here.

rwanttaja
03-26-2018, 03:03 PM
I'm a weekend pilot who flies just about every day weather permits. I try to get out of the way of pilots flying for a purpose.
I'm happy to cede room to someone flying for a purpose. But to watch plane after plane having to go around because a helicopter instructor is hovering over the active runway telling his student, "This is the collective, this is the cyclic, and....." Surely there's somewhere ELSE they can do that.

Ron Wanttaja

Frank Giger
03-28-2018, 09:13 AM
Since the helicopter instructor doesn't want to listen to reason, seems like a conversation with the airport manager might be better. And if that's no relief, a more pointed one with the FDSO about unsafe operations being conducted. I'd use words like "gross negligence."

gbrasch
03-28-2018, 09:27 AM
They don't at my field. Same pattern as fixed wing, except slightly closer-in than many) and slightly lower. In addition:

1. The instructors in the helicopters turn off their radios when the frequency is busy, as they claim it is too distracting. Their management has defended this practice, in writing, to the airport board.

2. The instructors have claimed, on the radio, that they have priority over "weekend pilots" (their term) and thus can perform hover instruction on the sole runway for minutes at a time. "Our students are paying thousands of dollars for instruction......"

Don't get me started about helicopters.....

Ron "Fox Two" Wanttaja

Absolutely absurd, contrary to any helicopter training I ever gave, and like Bill said, violates regs. I would notch it up to the FAA.

Mike M
03-28-2018, 07:08 PM
Absolutely absurd, contrary to any helicopter training I ever gave, and like Bill said, violates regs. I would notch it up to the FAA.

Concur. But then, I've only been a helicopter instructor since 1975, so maybe when I get more experience I'll use the runway for hover practice instead of the corner of the field away from all the planes :)

Back to the thread title topic about landing patterns, how about the January SA article by Steve Krog and the March letters to the editor it generated! I laughed until I cried. Such a seemingly simple topic but SO hard to write or teach about because it involves so much basic knowledge that people haven't internalized. USA non-towered airport patterns alone are worth an hour.

71047105

Bill Berson
03-28-2018, 07:58 PM
Usually, a busy helicopter school or ultralight school will request the airport owner to set up a separate landing area. And get FAA approval and enter the details in the published airport info. At Birchwood (Anchorage) the helicopters and ultralights and ski-planes used the east taxiway for landing.

Ron Blum
03-29-2018, 04:46 PM
I’m posting just to be informed about the originally posted question. Will a circular approach reduce stall/spin accidents in the pattern?

My personal answer would be “No” because the same pilots that misjudge a rectangular pattern will also misjudge a circle one. BTW, I have two T-38 experiences where an overhead break, circle to land, could have ended as stats as the pilot lined up on the wrong parallel runway both times.

In addition, the majority of fatal stall/spin accidents are on takeoff and go-around - not landing. A circular approach will not greatly affect this statistic.

mmarien
03-29-2018, 07:13 PM
I think there is a need for the square pattern. Nothing wrong with a mixing in a 180 from down wind either. As long as you don't use it to beat the guy ahead of you!;) When you've mastered the standard pattern requests like "straight to threshold", "keep it in close", "keep up the speed" and "land on the green dot" all test your abilities to make a good landing even more rewarding.

Stalls and spins on final happen when the pilot overshoots the runway and tries to get back on center line with a steep turn and maybe a little rudder. Good maneuvers for aerobatics but not at pattern speed and altitude. Using a 180 from downwind (or an overhead approach) is a good way to practice making the center line with a continuous descending turn. Just takes more skill than square pattern.

rwanttaja
03-30-2018, 11:43 AM
Airport just had an all-hands meeting where a number of topics were discussed. The upshot:

- The Airport and Airport Traffic Pattern operations information sheet will be updated to show acceptable locations for rotorcraft hover practice, appropriate landmark identification with azimuth and distance information will be added for entering the pattern and emphasis added to the current airport regulations to exit the runway as soon as practical.

- Rotorcraft will give way or land to taxiing airplanes while in the holding areas adjacent to the taxiway.

- Rotorcraft will refrain from hovering near any airport structures (fuel tanks, office or hangars)

- Rotorcraft will enter and exit the runway at appropriate turnoffs and avoid overflight of the infield areas between the runway and taxiways

Assuming the fling-wing operators comply, this will make things a lot calmer. The problem is, we have only one helicopter training operation on-field, but are the closest uncontrolled field to THREE towered airports. We get a lot of visitors.

Ron Wanttaja

WLIU
03-30-2018, 12:58 PM
Sounds like life is getting better.

If I may offer some advice from personal experience, do not have the helicopters hover in locations near the ends of the runways. Once upon a time I flew a lot at a field that had a helicopter school. They liked to hover off to the side of the runway end. As you have likely experienced, the students, and many instructors, have no idea what their rotorwash does to the world around them. I got used to starting to flare for landing, as I went by the R22, quickly banking into the crosswind that the R22 was creating, banking back to level as I exited that crosswind, and touching down. That and having them suddenly appear beside you on final as they practiced 180 overhead autorotations to a spot next to the paved runway, tended to make life interesting.

Best of luck,

Wes

Ron Blum
03-30-2018, 12:58 PM
:thumbsup: Hope this helps at your airport. Aviation has enough problems without us fighting each other.

Bill Berson
03-30-2018, 03:15 PM
Maybe the tower isn't needed at one of those airports anymore.

Frank Giger
04-02-2018, 04:43 PM
And now a defense of the rectangular pattern!

My last flight a few days ago went from calm air (I was flying hands free) to a big fat 90 degree crosswind for landing in about forty minutes or so. The change was quick enough that the AWOS couldn't keep up with it.

Anyhow, I knew something was up - the air just felt different - and extended my pattern out to the typical rectangle (ish). So when the air is poopy or at an angle, the rectangle gives one a bit more time to adjust.

But in calmer winds I'll stick to my half circle.