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View Full Version : How is EAA Actively promoting the Sport Pilot program



Robert Dingus
12-21-2017, 02:23 PM
i find it quite disturbing, and i may be wrong, where is the promotion of Light Sport Pilots, within the EAA organizations.
it is not in the local chapters, it is not at the airports the limited few that actually offer Light Sport training.
my local training spot just SOLD their only Light Sport training aircraft.

I realize the recent changes mainly benefit Private pilots, so they can continue to fly without the 3rd class medicals.

but this has actually almost killed Light Sport, training.

my closest and only options is a 2 plus hours of driving to get to a site that has an airplane.

How is EAA growing pilots, show me the numbers, show me the programs, something.

Robert

1600vw
12-22-2017, 08:14 AM
There are many who have stated this exact same thing. Good luck on this front.

CHICAGORANDY
12-22-2017, 08:44 AM
I've not yet started flight training but did buy the Gleim SP package and have worked through it. I am retired, 69 years aged, and definitely NOT a wealthy person who will ever be able to afford to buy and maintain an airplane of my own.

The more I read the more I'm starting to get a form of buyer's remorse wondering if there will be a 'practical' and convenient way for me to actually use the Sport Pilot ticket if I proceed to get one. My nearest training facility is over 90 minutes away and they only have 2 LSA planes. Will it be worth hours of commuting to try and rent for just an hour or two of flight? The reality of a GREAT 'sounding' program with no infrastructure is kinda depressing.

If I'm getting those discouraging thoughts in Chicago, I can't imagine how daunting it will be for folks in small towns.

DaleB
12-22-2017, 10:41 AM
I've not yet started flight training but did buy the Gleim SP package and have worked through it. I am retired, 69 years aged, and definitely NOT a wealthy person who will ever be able to afford to buy and maintain an airplane of my own.

The more I read the more I'm starting to get a form of buyer's remorse wondering if there will be a 'practical' and convenient way for me to actually use the Sport Pilot ticket if I proceed to get one. My nearest training facility is over 90 minutes away and they only have 2 LSA planes. Will it be worth hours of commuting to try and rent for just an hour or two of flight? The reality of a GREAT 'sounding' program with no infrastructure is kinda depressing.

If I'm getting those discouraging thoughts in Chicago, I can't imagine how daunting it will be for folks in small towns.
There are exactly zero options for training and taking the check ride in an LSA anywhere around where I live. I have a PP ticket, but am now flying with Sport Pilot privileges. The best advice I can offer you is to find one, two or three like minded individuals and buy an airplane. You can buy a nice E-LSA RV-12 now for under $70K, which works out pretty well split between two to four people. Operating costs are very low -- my co-owner and I figure $30 per hour wet, including maintenance and a reserve for overhaul (which realistically we'll probably never do). Form an LLC to own the airplane, everyone owns part of the LLC. That way it's easy to add or subtract owners. Yes, it will involve some initial outlay of cash, but when you figure the huge difference in hourly cost you'll recoup that - not to mention you can sell the airplane or your share in it.

If you don't want or need to travel cross country, there are planes that are MUCH cheaper to buy, but more costly to own and operate. Champs, Chiefs, Ercoups and so on. Might not be the best choice if you're old and chubby like me, but they're out there.

Light Sport definitely needs more exposure and better PR, but I wouldn't blame EAA for that.

Robert Dingus
12-23-2017, 04:40 PM
i checked with a site here in ohio, and they wanted 195.00 per hour in a Quicksilver 2 Seat trainer. that would mean at least 2000.00 just for the minimum of 10 hours, to get you to solo, or maybe less. i dont have 200 for an hour of flight time, a doctors visit is cheaper than that.

purchasing a plane is not in the average mans budget, even if 4 guys went together, finding 4 people with at least 10,000 in cash to plop down would be almost very difficult.

sure the American Dream really is alive.

Robert

joen6171b
12-24-2017, 08:51 AM
I just bought this. It qualifies as an LSA.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Stits-Playboy-/263302047809?hash=item3d4e066841%3Ag%3AnJoAAOSwZr9 ZqJ1A&vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=e77q4xVSHyk3T%252BmmJu8cQ3gx6FQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

joen6171b
12-24-2017, 08:53 AM
For sale in OH

https://barnstormers.com/classified_1326448_1930%27s+Design+Longster+.html

CHICAGORANDY
12-24-2017, 10:25 AM
Small, single seat, limited load capability homemade airplanes may not fit the bill for getting trained or getting us 250# wanna-be pilots off the ground with enough fuel to do a circuit of the airfield. YES, my 2018 resolution IS to shed some blubber tonnage, but I'm never gonna be 170 # again.

I think that it may be 'possible' that my life-long dream of flight isn't too expensive at this point in my life, but like oh so many other things I just can't realistically afford it? I dunno. At Winter's end I'm going to try for some financing to cover all the costs of a SP ticket.

Tench745
12-24-2017, 12:08 PM
I am not yet a pilot, but would like to be. At only 29 money is somewhat limited. Support from my local chapter was also limited when I mentioned getting a light sport ticket instead of private. The chapter guys, the youngest probably being in his 40's, said I should get private or not bother and that light sport was "for us old guys to keep flying when we can't keep a medical." I get that a private ticket opens up more possibilities, but shouldn't the membership be encouraging involvement in whatever form they can?

CHICAGORANDY
12-24-2017, 12:41 PM
Short answer... YES...they 'should' but it remains a reality that there is considerable ....let's just say snobbery..... about having a Private vs getting a Sport. I'm a non-flying geezer with limited means and I looked to Sport as a way to achieve a dream at substantially lower cost. In theory that is what Sport 'can' do, but the harsh reality is the horribly limited number of available training/rental aircraft and schools in many areas.... mine included.

It is possible that some of the dismissive nature comes from an attitude of "I had to take and pay for the full-boat training, why should someone else come in and get flying rights for half the effort and cost"?

But YOU are the exact demographic that NEEDS to be encouraged if general aviation is to grow and survive. It saddens me to hear the often repeated story you mention.

DaleB
12-24-2017, 01:17 PM
purchasing a plane is not in the average mans budget, even if 4 guys went together, finding 4 people with at least 10,000 in cash to plop down would be almost very difficult.
Really? How do people buy boats and motorcycles and lake cabins and pay for vacations and weddings? You save up money, or finance, or sell something else, depending on your situation. I didnít have $100K laying around in an old sock, and yet here I am owning half an airplane. Six months ago I owned the whole thing. Ten years ago I couldnít have bought an RC airplane, let alone the real thing. If itís important you will figure it out, even if ďfiguring it outĒ means figuring out how many years it will take you to get there.

PS... I didnít mean for that to sound critical or snarky, but it probably did. I should know better than to try to type replies on this teeny little phone with an even teenier keyboard. Point is, buying an airplane is like any other non-essential, but is probably easier to find partners to share the cost since youíll each likely only use it 40-50 hours per year anyway.

Bill Berson
12-24-2017, 01:45 PM
Maybe if EAA had "Light Sport" chapters you (we) could avoid that snobbery.
Or, if separate chapters are impractical, perhaps designate every other (odd numbered) month to Light Sport/Ultralight.

joen6171b
12-24-2017, 03:32 PM
Consider finding a glider club to itch your flying bug. Very cost effective.

malexander
12-26-2017, 06:31 AM
Robert, Randy, Tench. I'm working on a solution for what you guys are going through.
I took a couple of high school girls for a ride in the 172 a few months ago. One of them fell in love with the airplane, she's called me several times to go flying since, and we have. She wants to get her PPL.

My daughter is a CFI, CFII, MEII, and wants hours. She wants to go to the airlines. We own a C150 and a 172.
I'm going to furnish the 150 and the fuel, up to solo time. Then the student will be responsible for the fuel from there, I'll continue to furnish the airplane. My daughter is doing all the instructing for the hours.

I know there are lots of 150s, Tomahawks, etc out there that need to be flown. If we, as pilots, want GA to continue, we'll have to make it affordable.

CHICAGORANDY
12-26-2017, 12:33 PM
Kudos to ya' ! How uncommonly kind and generous. Folks in OK are fortunate to have you in town.

Robert Dingus
12-26-2017, 06:14 PM
i agree, good to have someone give GA a boost. yes the 150 Cessna's are are all over the place, they only have one problem they don't qualify as Light Sport, if they did i would be done and have license in hand. Its great that those girls want PPL, it continues that part of the GA fleet.

what we really need is for those owners that have 2 seat Light Sport Qualified Aircraft to lend a hand to those of us that do not have ready access to one.
i have asked several of the owners of Qualified aircraft to assist me, i have the renters insurance to cover me, however i get the same response or similar responses, i don't do that, or my employer forbids my doing that etc. Granted the aircraft i am talking about are Cub and Champ owners etc, Classic aircraft not new 90 to 200 thousand dollar aircraft with glass panels, i keep asking and keep looking.

Robert

malexander
12-26-2017, 07:00 PM
My hope is to "start something". If owners would be willing to help out, you could pursue the PPL for a fraction of the cost. I figure this girl will have ABOUT $1500.00 invested when she's finished. She is a senior in high school this year, she could have her PPL before she starts college.

I totally agree the 150 doesn't qualify for light sport. But if you could do your PPL for the same money, or less, why wouldn't you?

I also have to agree with the shobbery remark. Some pilots (a lot, actually) want people to think that they, pilots, are better than the average Joe, cause they can fly an airplane. So, they want to keep that expense way up there and outta reach.
I've always been a "giver". I like to see people succeed, achieve things they thought weren't possible. If I can give a little boost to help them do that, then I can feel I've done my part.

Robert Dingus
12-26-2017, 07:02 PM
i have been trying to find out just how many people have a Light Sport License, the best i can find is about 5157, in 2015 in a report by Dan Johnson.
Does anyone have newer or fresher numbers.

this was just under 1 percent of the pilot population back then.
Big Money always wins when the people are given a poor proposition, we the people hoped for better.
if the bigotry towards Light Sport continues, then the USA is doomed, to loose another 30 percent of its currently aged pilots in the next 3 to 5 years.

Robert

malexander
12-26-2017, 07:39 PM
I hope Kathryn will have soloed by OSH 2018. We've invited her, and her brother, to go with us. I'd like to try to talk with some EAA "officials" about my plan. I'm not expecting them to offer up any promo, but maybe to just "put-it-out-there" for people/owners to think about.

joen6171b
12-26-2017, 08:44 PM
For you guys looking to get a sport pilot certificate, I highly recommend taking the written, then spend a two week vacation in Hartford Wisconsin. Do it in conjunction with Oshkosh.

Cub Air is a fantastic place to learn to fly.

http://www.cubair.net/

rwanttaja
12-26-2017, 10:55 PM
i have been trying to find out just how many people have a Light Sport License, the best i can find is about 5157, in 2015 in a report by Dan Johnson.
Does anyone have newer or fresher numbers.

Not sure if I'm interpreting their coding properly, but I get 5,429 Sport Pilots from the 1 December 2017 FAA Certificate database.

Ron Wanttaja

Bill Berson
12-26-2017, 11:13 PM
I seem to recall that the majority, perhaps 4000? were the previous ultralight pilots that qualified to receive a Light Sport Certificate after 2004.

DaleB
12-26-2017, 11:20 PM
Don't forget, the number of Sport Pilot certificate holders is a small fraction of the total number of people flying with SP privileges. I personally know a fair number of people flying LSA with SP privileges, and a grand total of one working toward an actual Sport Pilot cert. And he had to buy into an LSA to be able to finish his training.

Bill Berson
12-26-2017, 11:40 PM
This chart shows Sport Pilots growing about 400 per year. Private Pilots are declining about 6000 per year.
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/media/2016-civil-airmen-stats.xlsx

dougbush
12-27-2017, 02:42 AM
Short answer... YES...they 'should' but it remains a reality that there is considerable ....let's just say snobbery..... about having a Private vs getting a Sport.
Maybe itís snobbery, but maybe they just think the additional training for private is worthwhile if youíre going to carry passengers cross-country. Or maybe they just think itís a better value considering the incremental cost and privileges.

joen6171b
12-27-2017, 05:32 AM
There aren’t any restrictions on carrying passengers cross country with the sport pilot certificate. There is with the recreational pilot certificate.

DaleB
12-27-2017, 10:42 AM
There arenít any restrictions on carrying passengers cross country with the sport pilot certificate. There is with the recreational pilot certificate.
Correct, other than the PP being able to carry more than one passenger if his medical situation and aircraft allow it. I believe, however, that his point was that there is benefit to the added training received for the Private Pilot ticket. Night takeoffs and landings, flight by reference to instruments, unusual attitude recovery, etc. I don't know if the last two are required for Sport Pilot training or not, but it would be very difficult to argue against them being a good idea - especially if carrying a passenger.

cdlwingnut
12-30-2017, 12:50 PM
The problem is finding an suitable airplane to put on an rental fleet that meets the Light sport criteria yet is still affordable to rent. you can get an older 150 for $20,000 and rent it out for $70-$100 an hour depending on location, a c-172 or Cherokee for $40,000-$70,000, rent it out at around $120-$150 and hour or buy a CT LSA for what? $110,000 and rent it out for $200 an hour. about the only older plane that can reasonable be rented out as light sport is an ercoupe, good little airplane but a 200 pounder and instructor will be very tight and marginal on performance for about the same price as a C-150. the Taylor crafts, Champs, Chiefs and such have a little problem of having the little wheel in the back. Though nothing wrong with a tail wheel, they are a lot of fun, It is very hard to get insurance to put one on a rental fleet. Most I've seen rent out dual only, and are pricey.

as an owner you have the wide world of experimental airplanes like the RV-12, some of the fisherflying line, Rans, belite, and others, you can even go with the taylorcrafts, champs and such yes insurance will be more but not like trying to rent it out, may have to search for an instructor competent in tail wheel but we are out there.

I hope you achieve your goal of flight, and as Bernie Pietenpole's wife said about the cost of the plans, "there are much worse things to spend your money on"

DaleB
12-30-2017, 03:40 PM
Cdlwingnut, you make some valid points. I will note that the hourly operating costs for an RV-12 (for example) are far lower than for a Cherokee or 172, but they're not cheap. I think you could rent one for the same hourly rate as the older planes and still do all right, but obviously most FBOs and flight school operators don't see it that way.

I've been saying for several years now that if you can't rent, and can't afford to own outright, you really need to find some like minded people and form an LLC, partnership or flying club to spread the cost around. The numbers get pretty reasonable pretty quickly. No, you can't buy an RV-12 for $20K. But three guys can for $20K each. Your hourly cost to fly is pretty low, especially compared to a Cherokee or a 172.

Bill Berson
12-30-2017, 04:14 PM
I think the vast majority of RV-12 are E-LSA kits and not eligible for commercial rental or instruction.
This is the problem.
Only factory completed SLSA RV-12 are eligible for instruction and the cost is not affordable.

I searched, but didn't find a price for factory new SLSA RV-12 from Synergy Air at the website:http://www.flyrv12.com/

jedi
12-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Correct, other than the PP being able to carry more than one passenger if his medical situation and aircraft allow it. I believe, however, that his point was that there is benefit to the added training received for the Private Pilot ticket. Night takeoffs and landings, flight by reference to instruments, unusual attitude recovery, etc. I don't know if the last two are required for Sport Pilot training or not, but it would be very difficult to argue against them being a good idea - especially if carrying a passenger.

The night and instrument training is is of no value if the aircraft you fly has no lights or instruments.

I am searching for a new owner for a $12,000 certified LSA equivalent, side by side two seater with tailwheel and not having much luck.

Major problems in addition to expense is where to keep it (wood and fabric) (no electric). I would like to train pilots with it but can not fly it from the modern airfields due to Class B and Class C airspace restrictions. All the little old airports are now private or restricted and the county where I live has passed an ordinance that prohibits any new airports. My favorite former airport is now a landfill and compost recycle facility.

The alternate private airport requires a million dollars of insurance to fly my $3,000 aircraft there where it would be difficult to crash and wipe out a cactus.

I would like to work with you wana bee pilots but as you can see the FAA has many regulations preventing you from flying. I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

DaleB
12-30-2017, 04:39 PM
I think the vast majority of RV-12 are E-LSA kits and not eligible for commercial rental or instruction.
This is the problem.
Only factory completed SLSA RV-12 are eligible for instruction and the cost is not affordable.

Correct. Last time I looked, a fully optioned new SLSA RV-12 was about $123K, but the new RV-12IS will likely be higher still. The few used examples I've seen seem to sell for around $95-110K.

Hence my suggestion for shared ownership. It's the only way several of us locally could make it work. We have three RV-12s on field. One was built by a former RV-6 pilot; one has two owners (I'm one) and we may add a third. The other was bought by a group of four guys. Oh, and one is being built now by high school students as part of the Aviation Nation project.

Bill Berson
12-30-2017, 06:24 PM
Shared ownership is certainly an option.
But for Sport Pilot to grow, I think the majority of pilots need an easy way to get some instruction (through solo) before committing to ownership.
And that requires a business model that allows an instructor to afford a certified trainer and base it at the local airport.
I thought of getting a trainer myself. But it doesn't make sense so far.

cdlwingnut
12-30-2017, 07:12 PM
the FAA rules in the USA for experimental aircraft is that I may buy one I may even take flight instruction in one, I may give flight instruction in one, but i may not rent one out for flight instruction or even private use rental. To do that the airplane must have a standard airworthiness certificate. So that leaves the high dollar new LSA like a CT, or an older design like the ercoupe, champ, or taylorcraft.

I didn't make the rules just have to follow them. If I had been the CEO of Cessna when they came out with the Light Sport Rule I would have begged bribed, whatever the FAA to make the Cessna 150/152 named or somehow able to operate under the Light Sport Rule, In my opinion those are the perfect light sport airplanes.

Bill Berson
12-30-2017, 08:23 PM
The Cessna 162 qualifies as Light Sport. But apparently was not economically viable with the limited ability to compete with existing low cost C-150 or 172 that can do large pilots and charter rides also. So of course, the operator at my airport has one airplane, a C-172. And doesn't mention Sport Pilot to new students.

And the 162 was later discontinued by Cessna.
I think Jack Pelton was the CEO at Cessna that launched the C-162.

rwanttaja
12-30-2017, 08:45 PM
the FAA rules in the USA for experimental aircraft is that I may buy one I may even take flight instruction in one, I may give flight instruction in one, but i may not rent one out for flight instruction or even private use rental. To do that the airplane must have a standard airworthiness certificate. So that leaves the high dollar new LSA like a CT, or an older design like the ercoupe, champ, or taylorcraft.
Permit me to correct some semantics. A Standard airworthiness certificate is not required. The CT, like all SLSA aircraft, has a Special airworthiness certificate.


I didn't make the rules just have to follow them. If I had been the CEO of Cessna when they came out with the Light Sport Rule I would have begged bribed, whatever the FAA to make the Cessna 150/152 named or somehow able to operate under the Light Sport Rule....

And what would the CEO of Cessna had done, if they had?

Where is the tooling? Manufacturers often sell it for scrap. And do they still have the molds for the fiberglass parts?

Are all key components (from fuel valves to turnbuckles) still in production...or would Cessna be forced to re-run aspects of the certification? If an outside company had built, for instance, the landing gear legs, is that company still in business?

30 years after the last plane rolled off the production line, who knows the specific manufacturing process?

All the drawings (assuming they were kept....) are hard-copy...no modern CAD-CAM for the 150.

The fact is, Cessna probably was better off completely re-engineering a new design rather than trying to resurrect a design from the '50s. Possibly giving Cessna another ~300 pounds to work with (e.g, Cessna 150/152 gross weight) could have made the Skycatcher a more realistic aircraft.

Ron Wanttaja

Floatsflyer
12-31-2017, 12:55 PM
And what would the CEO of Cessna had done, if they had?

Where is the tooling? Manufacturers often sell it for scrap. And do they still have the molds for the fiberglass parts?

Are all key components (from fuel valves to turnbuckles) still in production...or would Cessna be forced to re-run aspects of the certification? If an outside company had built, for instance, the landing gear legs, is that company still in business?

30 years after the last plane rolled off the production line, who knows the specific manufacturing process?

All the drawings (assuming they were kept....) are hard-copy...no modern CAD-CAM for the 150.

Ron Wanttaja

Thanks to AOPA, there is no need to care about any of this. AOPA in partnership with Aviat Aircraft and Yingling Aircraft have produced for sale, completely refurbished, like brand new condition, totally updated 150's, 152's and 172's they call "Reimagined" airplanes. For $130K and $160K respectively. Who needs SLSA's that cost much, much more and come with category specific restrictions with respect to weight and speed. Much more insentive, if you can pass a medical, to get the PPL.

I saw them at Oshkosh and they are beautiful aircraft.

Bill Berson
12-31-2017, 01:08 PM
So those "reimagined" Cessna 150‘s were manufactured in the 70’s and now exempt from product liability.*
Interesting idea to get around the cost of liability which still shackles light aviation.


*18 year limit of manufacturer liability, General Aviation Revitalization Act

rwanttaja
12-31-2017, 01:46 PM
So those "reimagined" Cessna 150‘s were manufactured in the 70’s and now exempt from product liability.*
Interesting idea to get around the cost of liability which still shackles light aviation.

GARA exempts Cessna from liability...but probably not whoever did the "reimagining" of the Cessnas.

Guess it'd cut down on the class-action suits, though.

Ron Wanttaja

Floatsflyer
12-31-2017, 02:13 PM
GARA exempts Cessna from liability...but probably not whoever did the "reimagining" of the Cessnas.

Guess it'd cut down on the class-action suits, though.

Ron Wanttaja

From a logical POV that makes sense. From a legal POV it also makes sense but I don't know how case law has addressed this.

Bill Berson
12-31-2017, 03:23 PM
Rebuilders are mechanics. They usually don't have as many assets to go after.
I don't know if AOPA can find "reimagination" insurance.

DaleB
12-31-2017, 04:04 PM
The night and instrument training is is of no value if the aircraft you fly has no lights or instruments.
I suppose you're right about that. It certainly wouldn't hurt anything if the airplane is equipped for it. Looking at the SP performance objectives, I also see nothing for unusual attitude recovery. I don't care what you're flying, it's not immune to wake turbulence and other unfortunate upset possibilities.


Thanks to AOPA, there is no need to care about any of this. AOPA in partnership with Aviat Aircraft and Yingling Aircraft have produced for sale, completely refurbished, like brand new condition, totally updated 150's, 152's and 172's they call "Reimagined" airplanes. For $130K and $160K respectively. Who needs SLSA's that cost much, much more and come with category specific restrictions with respect to weight and speed. Much more insentive, if you can pass a medical, to get the PPL.

I saw them at Oshkosh and they are beautiful aircraft.
They may be pretty, but if you fall outside the third class medical or Basic Med groups then there most certainly IS a need to care about it. And I'm sorry, but I don't care how much of an overhaul a 152 or 172 has had -- I'll still take my ELSA RV-12, thank you very much. It cost me less than half the $130K for the restored, decades-old 152, and has all the benefits of an experimental (not to mention being a dozen knots faster in cruise).

I looked for a while, but can find no sign that the $160K 172 is a reality... the only 172s Yingling shows for sale (or sold) are well over $200K. Maybe I missed something.

Robert Dingus
01-01-2018, 09:03 PM
Happy new year all, i have good news, some good Samaritan pilot, has bought a Cessna Sky Catcher and decided to lease it, for use by the local FBO for use in Light Sport training. So miracles do happen, will be going to check it out tomorrow, to find out how soon we can get back into the air.
This is 5 minutes from my work, so this is a true miracle from the start of this posting.

Robert

malexander
01-02-2018, 04:54 AM
Happy new year all, i have good news, some good Samaritan pilot, has bought a Cessna Sky Catcher and decided to lease it, for use by the local FBO for use in Light Sport training. So miracles do happen, will be going to check it out tomorrow, to find out how soon we can get back into the air.
This is 5 minutes from my work, so this is a true miracle from the start of this posting.

Robert



That's great......now if the weather just cooperates

martymayes
01-02-2018, 01:13 PM
That is good news Robert, Get signed up and "Git 'er done!"

jedi
01-03-2018, 06:05 PM
Happy new year all, i have good news, some good Samaritan pilot, has bought a Cessna Sky Catcher and decided to lease it, for use by the local FBO for use in Light Sport training. So miracles do happen, will be going to check it out tomorrow, to find out how soon we can get back into the air.
This is 5 minutes from my work, so this is a true miracle from the start of this posting.

Robert

Great news above. Anybody else looking for sport pilot training please contact me. I have some unique suggestions that may be of interest to you. Also any new basic student planning to go all the way to airline work, like to talk to you too about how to save $$$$.

CFIG1467368@yahoo.com.

Robert Dingus
01-06-2018, 07:47 AM
And now for the other shoe to drop, the FBO looked at the insurance cost to add it to the fleet, as a trainer for new / student pilots. They choked on the cost, for offering it for training new pilots. If they only use it for pilots with certificates, or existing pilots for transition or check outs, insurance is easy just another line item.
The owner and the FBO are still deciding to proceed or not in offering this for use as a trainer.

Will keep you informed, as to what really happens, im hopeful we get it so i can finish up and get my license.

Robert

1600vw
01-07-2018, 06:01 AM
Robert if you have not thought about this, you may want to look for a local owners training club. You buy in for a share, once your training is over you sell your share to the next student. many are doing this today. I even know a few whom went out and purchased an airplane just to do this training in. Or if you know others in your area looking for this training, go in together on an airplane and us it to train in together. Just some idea's I am throwing out and you may have already thought of these.

DaleB
01-07-2018, 09:13 AM
And now for the other shoe to drop, the FBO looked at the insurance cost to add it to the fleet, as a trainer for new / student pilots. They choked on the cost, for offering it for training new pilots.
I'm mystified by this.

Locally there is a student pilot who has been training for a Sport Pilot ticket. His CFI had him training in the CFI's Champ. When it was time for him to solo, though, the Champ isn't insured for solo student pilots. Neither is the Champ operated by a local flying club, which coincidentally the only other LSA that might be had for non-owner flying.

I have an LSA, but it's Experimental and so cannot be rented. So, we started talking about him buying part of my airplane so he could fly it as an owner. I emailed my insurance agent and asked about adding a pre-solo student pilot to the insurance as a named pilot. We were prepared for a pretty high number. Turns out it cost me $100. That's it. My rate doesn't change; seems that since I have less than 150 hours in type my rate is as high as it will get. Adding him was just paperwork and a change fee. So now he's an airplane owner. He flies solo every chance he gets, flies with his instructor, and we've never once had a conflict. In fact, we're thinking seriously about adding a third person. The insurance cost for both of us is less than $1400 per year, including enough hull coverage to replace it.

1600vw
01-08-2018, 06:56 AM
I know a local man who build an RV. His airplane has graced the pages of EAA mag. He has over 4000 hrs flying all sorts of different airplanes, but not a tail wheel. He purchases a small EAB tail wheel airplane. He calls his insurance company to insure this airplane. He told me they wanted more to insure this airplane then they wanted to insure his RV airplane. It was around 3x as much. Because this airplane is nothing more then an ultralight style airplane, he said he will fly it naked. His plans are to just fly above corn for the fun of flying. If he wants to go anywhere he will get in his RV.

I then have another friend who just purchased an airplane. Its a trike or nose wheel. He is a student pilot. The insurance for this airplane is so expensive for him to be covered he is not. He has another man who holds a PP certificate insured on this airplane. When he flies he takes this man with him.

I then call to get not-in-motion insurance on my eab. They wanted 800 a year for this. DaleB I wonder why you have better luck then those in my area cost wise? Maybe it is who you know.

DaleB
01-08-2018, 09:43 AM
I then call to get not-in-motion insurance on my eab. They wanted 800 a year for this. DaleB I wonder why you have better luck then those in my area cost wise? Maybe it is who you know.
I just did what a lot of RV owners do, I called AJ Gallagher. Take to Jennifer or Shanna. Full coverage on my RV-12, WITH a student pilot on the policy and enough hull coverage to replace it, is under $1400 per year. It was under $900 when I just carried enough hull coverage to keep me from losing too much if it got destroyed. Considering I've got about 200 hours total and my new partner has less than 100 hours of RV-12 time (and no ticket yet), I don't think that's too bad. The rates should go down substantially when he gets more time; the cutoff is either 100 or 150 time in type to get the rates down.

That may or may not sound like an unreasonable number to you. Everyone has a different threshold of pain. :)

rwanttaja
01-08-2018, 10:42 AM
Annual cost of Fly Baby hull coverage: $800
Years of flying Fly Babies without an accident: 30

Total amount saved by not having hull coverage: $24,000

Value of aircraft: $10,000

Any questions?

(and yes, I carry liability...$178/yr)

Ron Wanttaja

martymayes
01-08-2018, 12:40 PM
I'm mystified by this.

Commercial policy. The premium for a personal/biz policy on a m or n model 172 will run around $1000/yr. To use that plane for flight training, premium jumps to over $5000/yr.

malexander
01-08-2018, 04:21 PM
My 150 is $725/yr. That's with a student pilot on it. Liability w/20K hull.

martymayes
01-08-2018, 07:27 PM
My 150 is $725/yr. That's with a student pilot on it. Liability w/20K hull.

Call them up and say you will be offering flight training to the public. You’ll buy the hull every 3 yrs with premiums.

Robert Dingus
02-08-2018, 09:29 PM
so far no decision to put the 162 online, and the 5000 a year premium is still hanging out there. until they make a decision we are still on hold, there are o flying clubs in my area, we have at least 6 local airports within an hour drive, and not one willing light sport owner. Granted the 150,000 RV is nice, I could not afford his fuel bill. and with all that glass on the panel, lets just say wow, dollar bills.

Robert

Dgen
03-02-2018, 12:07 AM
i find it quite disturbing, and i may be wrong, where is the promotion of Light Sport Pilots, within the EAA organizations.
it is not in the local chapters, it is not at the airports the limited few that actually offer Light Sport training.
my local training spot just SOLD their only Light Sport training aircraft.

I realize the recent changes mainly benefit Private pilots, so they can continue to fly without the 3rd class medicals.

but this has actually almost killed Light Sport, training.

my closest and only options is a 2 plus hours of driving to get to a site that has an airplane.

How is EAA growing pilots, show me the numbers, show me the programs, something.

Robert


I was wondering if I had posted this and forgot;swear I was just complaining about the exact same things. I was thinking the heavy regulations are the issue. I will concede that I know very little however.

Was told we should kindly express our concerns to a "David Oord" at David.Oord@aopa.org

jedi
03-04-2018, 07:34 PM
Correct, other than the PP being able to carry more than one passenger if his medical situation and aircraft allow it. I believe, however, that his point was that there is benefit to the added training received for the Private Pilot ticket. Night takeoffs and landings, flight by reference to instruments, unusual attitude recovery, etc. I don't know if the last two are required for Sport Pilot training or not, but it would be very difficult to argue against them being a good idea - especially if carrying a passenger.

Is this true if my aircraft has no lights and no instrurments.

DaleB
03-05-2018, 08:42 AM
Yes.

The certificate is not issued for your specific airplane. Is that for sure the only airplane you'd ever fly? Even if that's true, as I said, it would be difficult to argue how more training and a wider range of flying experience would not make you better equipped to fly. Especially unusual attitude recovery. Even airplanes without lights and a full panel are still subject things like wake turbulence.

Robert Dingus
04-29-2018, 07:57 PM
ok,the final decision is in, they are not going to offer the 162 for Light Sport training or use.
Looking t build my own LSA to finish my training, that means I have to let other fly off the 40 hours, before I can use my own aircraft.
at least I can fly it when ever I want, still the same limitations.

always a road block, some place.

Robert

Bill Berson
04-29-2018, 08:15 PM
You might be able to fly off most of the 40 hours as a solo student. You would need to get soloed and endorsed by an instructor in a similar aircraft, I think. If the aircraft is a single seat you can take the check ride with the DPE on the ground, I think.
Request that Operating Limitations NOT limit student solo when you get the Airworthiness certificate.

DaleB
04-29-2018, 09:01 PM
If you build E-LSA it’s a lot less than 40 hours.

wmgeorge
05-01-2018, 10:42 AM
I've not yet started flight training but did buy the Gleim SP package and have worked through it. I am retired, 69 years aged, and definitely NOT a wealthy person who will ever be able to afford to buy and maintain an airplane of my own.

The more I read the more I'm starting to get a form of buyer's remorse wondering if there will be a 'practical' and convenient way for me to actually use the Sport Pilot ticket if I proceed to get one. My nearest training facility is over 90 minutes away and they only have 2 LSA planes. Will it be worth hours of commuting to try and rent for just an hour or two of flight? The reality of a GREAT 'sounding' program with no infrastructure is kinda depressing.

If I'm getting those discouraging thoughts in Chicago, I can't imagine how daunting it will be for folks in small towns.

So what did you think of the Gleim SP package? My real goal Is to own and fly an Ultra Light but no harm in getting the ground school and test out of the way in case I change my mind. I wonder how long the results of the written test are valid?

HAPPYDAN
05-05-2018, 07:59 PM
The results of the Sport, Rec, and Private Knowledge test are valid for 2 years. Make sure not to lose the test results sheet the testing evaluator will give you.

CHICAGORANDY
05-05-2018, 10:41 PM
I think the Gleim package is quite complete and comprehensive. Written in understandable language and the format breaks up the materials in small enough segments to motivate continuing.

wmgeorge
06-02-2018, 07:53 AM
I think the Gleim package is quite complete and comprehensive. Written in understandable language and the format breaks up the materials in small enough segments to motivate continuing.

I ended up going with the new updated 2018 Online course from Sporty's since I am going for the Sport Pilot license. Also ordered the FAR-AIM 2018 and a log book. When I get the ground done and out of the way I will find a CFI with a light sport aircraft available to teach in to do the flight training.

Thanks for the reply Randy.

Frank Giger
06-07-2018, 07:46 AM
I used the Gleim package for my Sport Pilot stuff, and it worked out really well, and was worth the money.

[edit]

Backing up a bit to previous posts, here's how I did my training:

1) Sport Pilot ticket gained in a FlightDesign CTLS, which a guy on the field rented to my CFI to help him pay for it (yes, it was insured for students, etc.).
2) Tailwheel endorsement in a Champ, and most of my hours outside of #3 was in that Champ.
3) Built my own airplane while doing 1) and 2) above, and fly it.

Since I knew I was going to fly purely for recreational reasons during daylight in severe VFR, low and slow in an open cockpit biplane that met LSA criteria, I found no need for more than a Sport Pilot certificate. That said, I've done spin training and a touch of aerobatic training as well.

wmgeorge
06-07-2018, 01:54 PM
Frank that is more or less my route. I am perhaps 25% into the Sporty's course and I can not say enough good about it. I went with it because it has all been freshly updated 2018. Plan to get the student written certificate and then seek out CFI with a LSA to flight train on. I am either going to build one or purchase one of the many LSA used that I see offered for sale.

Building is not out of the picture and thanks to my loving wife who allows me to furnish my shop with whatever I think I need it may come to that.

If I can not find someone local I will load up my pup, my wife and take the camper someplace where they do!

Frank Giger
06-12-2018, 09:16 AM
While some may question the wisdom of it, I found building the airplane (or preparing to build it) during flight training really motivated me, particularly when I was plugging down money on renting a plane.

Money was an issue for my endeavors; fortunately, I had a solid plan going into it. I worked a second job and put aside the cash for about half a year for training - I didn't want to have to hold that up owing to a shortage of funds - and then started putting aside for the aircraft, knowing that I could continue to save for the engine while I worked on the airframe.

It's about priority. I could spend four bucks on a cup of coffee....or I could buy an AN4 bolt. Buy a game off of Steam or an airspeed indicator. Etc., etc.

[edit]

Above all, the wife's support was key. She has absolutely no interest in General Aviation at all, but since it's important to me, it's important to her. Indeed, she'll sometimes ask why I haven't gone out to the airport to either work on the plane (there is always something to do on it) or go fly!

jedi
06-15-2018, 06:43 AM
Congratulation to all you dedicated students and builders. Makes me happy to see and hear about you and your interest in light aviation. As a long time pilot and CFI if I can be of any assistance I would like to do what I can to help or encourage your efforts.

There is not enough activity on this site to be high on my list of activities. If you are not on Homebuiltairplanes.com you may want to look for me there.

malexander
06-17-2018, 06:36 AM
Above all, the wife's support was key. She has absolutely no interest in General Aviation at all, but since it's important to me, it's important to her. Indeed, she'll sometimes ask why I haven't gone out to the airport to either work on the plane (there is always something to do on it) or go fly!



This is my wife. She has absolutely no interest in flying. I can't say she doesn't like aviation. She TOTALLY supports my habit/hobby. She's been right by our daughter's side all the way, while she's gotten all her rating up to CFII, and is supporting her on to the airlines. And would be an encouragement to our other daughter as well, if she were to decide to get her PPL. We live on a private airport, and my wife wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, but..........thought it was a good opportunity to brag.:)

robert l
07-31-2018, 06:15 AM
I'm in the same boat, PPL in 1974, flew for a few years then life got in the way. A couple of years ago I decided to get back to doing the only sport I like, flying. There are two 1946 Champs for rent 40 miles from my home and they stay busy most of the time, either flying or in the shop. I made quite a few trips to the airport to fly only to find the weather/wind to bad for my skill level or someone extended their flight time and now the plane is in the shop for a 100 hr. inspection. Also, they jacked up the fuel prices and the price for instruction so I decided to stop wasting my money and roll the dice to get my 3rd class medical again. After the Aeromed Dr. sent all my paper work to the FAA, I got a letter 5 weeks later saying they needed more info. I ended up doing it all over again, new stress test, even though the first one was less than 3 months old, new sleep study and new eye exam. I mailed off 92 pages of stuff two weeks ago so maybe in a couple of months I'll know something. The only reason I'm going for my 3rd class again is because there are at least 25 airplanes within 50 miles that I could have access to, compared to the two Champs. Sport Flying is what I do anyway, I'm not going to fly into a busy airport unless I have my (best friend) instructor with me. I have more time in a 150 than anything else but for S/P, it's off limits. I know at 71 it's a gamble but with the lack of S/P aircraft I feel I don't have much choice.
Bob

Robert Dingus
10-26-2018, 06:20 AM
I found a Sport plane locally I can buy, so by the time I pay for the 12,500 dollar aircraft, this makes my sport license cost me roughly, $16,000.00, just to get my a$$ in the air legally. we really have to love flying, to spend that kind of money just to get licensed, and have access. I'm sorry but a 2 year longer wait, is just plain crappy. Government and businesses can jack up gasoline overnight, yet we cannot fix something that has been broken for more than 10 years in less than 4, wasting 1000's to step over people, just to go slow. pathetic
Robert

jedi
10-29-2018, 06:22 AM
I found a Sport plane locally I can buy, so by the time I pay for the 12,500 dollar aircraft, this makes my sport license cost me roughly, $16,000.00, just to get my a$$ in the air legally. we really have to love flying, to spend that kind of money just to get licensed, and have access. I'm sorry but a 2 year longer wait, is just plain crappy. Government and businesses can jack up gasoline overnight, yet we cannot fix something that has been broken for more than 10 years in less than 4, wasting 1000's to step over people, just to go slow. pathetic
Robert

You should be able to cut the $1600 down to much less with some searching for a CFI that likes to fly your airplane. I mentioned on another thread two C-150s for $10,000 each that are available. $14,000 more or less plus some gas and maintenance, etc. can get you a PPL and a plane to fly.

CHICAGORANDY
10-29-2018, 07:09 AM
True, but the 150 is NOT available 'yet' for Sport Pilotage. And if a weight change will indeed take years, my personal options as a geezer remain extremely limited due to the scarcity of LSA rental craft and schools.

1600vw
10-29-2018, 11:20 AM
ChicagoRandy Try to search out someone with an experimental two seat whom will let you become part owner. Do your training, then take you name off the registration or sell your share to someone else if the Owner is up to this. If you lived closer I would offer this to you with my airplane. I like the idea of aviators helping other aviators. How aviation was built. If we want aviation to be what it once was, we need to get back to basics. The pluses for me, friendship. I hope it all works out for you CHICAGORANDY.

Tony

Yellowhammer
12-12-2018, 10:47 AM
Tench,

Do not listen to those guys!!!

At this point you are just trying to gain experience by any means necessary. I was faced with the same funding challenges and went the Sport Licence route. I am adding to that as I go. Trying to get my CFI for Sport Pilot training to help fill the much needed void of Sport instructors. I live close to Hammond, Louisiana. At the Hammond Airport, my flight instructor's name is Mr. Steve Rastanis. He owns and operates Auto-Gyro of Louisiana along with his wife Mrs. Terri. They do both the Sport Licence and Auto Gyro for those interested in Gyro work.

The training aircraft they operated is the Evector Sports Star. Simply stated it is a bad a$$ little trainer. Stick and rudder job with superior visibility and handles like a little fighter. It's the sexiest trainer that I have seen in flight schools.
Auto-Gyro of Louisiana also has accommodations for out of town students which Mr. Steve services a ton of. Many of his Gyro students are from other countries.
He is the only outfit i could find that would cater to my needs. Thank the Lord!
NEVER give up your dream of flying, NEVER! You gotta stay hungry if you want to get in the air!
Yellowhammer

1600vw
12-12-2018, 11:10 AM
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