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Cherokeeflyer
11-08-2011, 10:37 AM
Hopefully Aiventure 2012 will get back to the EAA roots as a festival celebrating GA aviation homebuilders And not be a another military airshow like Airventure 2010 seemed to be.

Hal Bryan
11-08-2011, 10:42 AM
I think this might help answer your question:

http://www.airventure.org/news/2011/110731_av2012.html

Planned themes so far include the 75th Anniversary of the Piper Cub, a tribute to Richard Van Grunsven and Vans (including the newly restored RV-1 headed for a place of honor at the AirVenture Museum), the 50th anniversary of the Dyke Delta, and some big things coming together around electric aircraft, to name a few.

Cherokeeflyer
11-08-2011, 10:45 AM
Hi Hal, that sounds wonderful. I got a bit bored with a constant military celebration last year. See you at 2012 Airventure.

Lindberg
11-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Well, I see it differently. I have been flying into Oshkosh since 1985 except for 2010 (Sloshkosh) and have always noticed that military demonstrations drew the attention of everyone. Sorry, but I can only take so many of the so-called homebuilts. Most (not all) are boring except to the builder. I mean, just how many RV's can I look at before I want to start swinging at anything that moves. Now, when it comes to something original, innovative and unusual I am all for it, but I can only tolerate just so many Kit Foxes and other motor powered kites. As for "getting back to the roots" I can only say "forgetaboutit." It ain't gonna happen.

Nothing attracts more attention that some of the big and fast military stuff. And for those who recall the early days of the Gulf Wars and 9-11, they were very popular. Seems to me that we have been getting less and less of it.

Nothing turns heads like the sound of an afterburner kicking in, and it always will.

Having said all this and having hurt some feelings, I just want to say I want to see it all, but the military stuff rules.

HOOYAH!

bsbaker1
11-10-2011, 03:53 PM
I disagree, Lindberg. There are plenty of non-EAA airshows and museums to see warbirds. I go to Wings Over Houston almost every year to see them. I used to go to Oshkosh to see experimentals. Since it is not about experimentals anymore, I'll probably never go back again.

Zack Baughman
11-10-2011, 04:23 PM
While the organization has always been dedicated to homebuilts and experimentals, the fly-in has historically welcomed all aspects of aviation - GA spam cans, warbirds, active military aircraft, etc. Just go back through the old Sport Aviation magazines and you'll see that it was a pretty eclectic mix of machines that came to the fly-in over the years. It's still that way and I for one enjoy it. I'm biased when it comes to military aircraft as that's what inspired me growing up. That's why I voted for more military aircraft in the poll. That being said, I truly enjoy the homebuilt experimentals, classics, and ultralights nearly as much and sometimes more. IF I were king of the world, I'd try and have a more even mix of every EAA division type on flying display, whether it be simple showcase flying around the patch as was done when I first started coming to AirVenture in the mid-90s, or as part of the actual afternoon air show. But I'll always vote for more military planes, as it's a good reminder of why we can even enjoy the show in the first place. Just my $0.02.

Zack

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 06:08 PM
Sloshkosh was the first year for Connie and I.It had been described to us as EVERYTHING aviation. I feel that is a valid description, and a worthy goal for air venture, what could be better?.

Gman
11-10-2011, 06:26 PM
As long as there is not another special "gender-specific" airshow day...it's all good.

Richard Warner
11-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Contrary to Lindberg's post, I get bored with the Military planes. I love the Experimentals, Classics and Antiques. the Military planes have a place too though, for those that enjoy them. As for the military jets, the people that enjoy them the most seem to be the non-flying general public in my opinion.

rawheels
11-11-2011, 07:48 AM
I really appreciate the fact that AirVenture is not type specific. There are areas for the Warbirds, LSA, Vintage, etc. Each year it seems I am interested is seeing something different, and I know I can find it somewhere in the show. I like the Warbirds, but I really like that the whole event isn't all about them like most home-town events. For those that want to focus just on Warbirds there are forums/speakers all week long that they can go to (which is the same for any type). My vote is for keeping the balance about the same.

Bill Greenwood
11-11-2011, 10:00 AM
I think the static displays of military planes is good. Lot's of people and kids like to climb inside some of the large cargo planes,and of course the aircrews like to come to EAA.
I get very tired of the extreme noise of most of the jet acts. It hurts kids ears and often makes them scared to tears. Not the way to treat the public. If I am at a show where a F-35 is flying, I go inside or just leave the show, it is really obscene amount of noise and damaging to our hearing.
I sure don't want to spend the day at EAA where a large portion of it is subject to that kind of noise. A little modern jet flying goes a long way.

As for the warbirds, I love the great vintage prop planes. They represent the planes that helped win the war when the war was worth fighting. I have pushed for years to make one day, "modern day", and let the vintage jets and maybe T-28s fly that day. This is sort of done, but not followed strictly.

cfae1937
11-11-2011, 12:03 PM
It makes for an interesting discussion, but, without both , attendance would serious slump.

As a non-pilot, I expect to see both. I enjoy both. I enjoy seeing rebuilt or refurbished military aircraft like Glacier Girl as well as original design experimental aircraft. I expect and enjoy seeing new aircraft from the major factories as well as old aircraft that are retired and returned to flying status.

In effect, I enjoy anything aviation. Trying to reduce it to a niche will bring out those who enjoy the niche but lose those enjoy it all.

At 74, I was unable to attend until I retired , but I had always wanted to because I had heard it was the grandfather meeting for all aviation enthusiasts. I cannot come every year, butI hope that it will continue to be all I heard it was. It has been in the years I attended since I reitred.

I thank EAA for letting me see things I would not have seen otherwise including the one man band out on the corner.

Chad Jensen
11-11-2011, 01:20 PM
As Paul always says..."There's room for everyone."

Chris Henry
11-11-2011, 01:35 PM
Chad said it best. Don't change a thing. I want to see them all!

Cherokeeflyer
11-12-2011, 05:52 AM
As part of the whole mix at Airventure, I like seeing the military aircraft, as so many pushed design boundaries. What I don't enjoy is how EAA celebrate war. They used to have a military airshow only on the final weekend. I always thought it was only staged to appeal to visiting non pilots, whom expect a lot of noise and bangs for their money. For the last 2 years Oshkosh had military flights everyday. I'm seeing lots more military aircraft in Conoco Philips Plaza.
What I enjoy is the EAAs celebration of interesting aircraft design. Its wonderful seeing Rutan's spaceship one, a new VLJ or a new Light Sport design. Please don't turn Oshkosh into a military airshow, warplanes are only a part of what makes aviation so interesting.

Chris Henry
11-12-2011, 03:41 PM
EAA Does NOT celebrate war. I have never seen anything of the like. What they do is honor the men who flew those aircraft into combat, maintained them, and designed them. One of the richest parts of aviation is it's deep rooted past. I have an idea, if you don't like warbirds, then don't walk down there.

eyeno
11-13-2011, 09:02 AM
How come the poll didn't have an option for "it's fine the way it is"? I love all aspects of aviation and found that the 2011 week had a good representation. You're lucky to have military participation. Here in Canada it's getting harder and harder to get the CAF to show up.

Lindberg
11-13-2011, 10:17 AM
"I disagree, Lindberg. There are plenty of non-EAA airshows and museums to see warbirds. I go to Wings Over Houston almost every year to see them. I used to go to Oshkosh to see experimentals. Since it is not about experimentals anymore, I'll probably never go back again."

WHAT? Are you kidding me? You have been spending way too much time in the Fly Market my friend. True, there are many things at AirVenture that have nothing to do with experimentals, but EAA, which originally started out as homebuilder/experimenters, is now about all aspects of aviation. If it exists in aviation, it most likey has been to Oshkosh or will be and that is what I like about AirVenture the most. It's the "whole 9 yards" and then some. (Where else can you get a free Ford cowboy hat or ride a JD Gator.)

I have been critical of EAA/AirVenture in the past, and that's our right as members, but I've never said I won't go back, I just hope the free EAA T-shirts you can get for applying for a VISA credit card continues, as they make great presents for someone who hasn't ever been there. You can get all you want. When you get back home you get one new credit card in the mail and 9 letters of rejection. I wonder how that effects a credit rating?

Lindberg
11-13-2011, 10:28 AM
"As for the military jets, the people that enjoy them the most seem to be the non-flying general public in my opinion."

WHAT? Are you kidding me? Out on the North 40, where practically all are pilots, we start "speaking in tongues" when a military fighter roars overhead. Ahhh and the sound of a P-51 or a T-28. Who the hell needs Viagra?

steve
11-13-2011, 07:15 PM
For something different, howzabout flying some of the old classics from the Pioneer museum? Or take a page from the Rhienbeck Aerodrome playbook by staging a "dogfight" with some WW I planes. I like seeing something different. The V22 tilt-rotor back in '10 was interesting.

Scott.Woodford
11-19-2011, 01:34 AM
I travelled from Australia for AirVenture2011 and had an absolute blast! However, the thing that REALLY got my camera shutter clicking was the military hardware. Sure, it was great to see the RV's and ultrafrights around the place, but after a while they all began to look the same. In fact, me and my mate got to the point of saying "Oh...it's just another P51" at one stage because even the numbers of Mustangs moving about the place became a little stale.

I don't agree, in any way, that war is glorified either by AirVenture, or any airshow. The best way we can honour those killed in military service ON ALL SIDES OF THE CONFLICT is to remember them. Seeing Corsairs, P38's and the like engaged in mock strafing runs on the airfield was nothing short of amazing and I couldn't help but imagine how terrifying it must have been to be an enemy soldier on the ground experiencing the "Whistling Death" swooping down over the battelfield. Likewise, seeing Fifi and Aluminium Overcast in the air was surreal, and a great tribute to the men who fought and died in these aircraft protecting the very same ideals that our soldiers fight for today.

I am already planning my next trip to Oshkosh, which will be 2013 at this stage. I am giving next year a miss simply because I have no interest in seeing a sea of yellow Cubs, and the tribute to the Tuskegee Airmen won't be enough to hold my interest for the full 7 days. I guess I lucked out this year with the 100 years of naval aviation celebration! But to be honest, without the large military presence, I doubt I would consider attending. I would probably look at other options such as the European military airshows around the same time as Oshkosh.

steveinindy
11-19-2011, 02:19 AM
Nothing turns heads like the sound of an afterburner kicking in, and it always will.
Maybe I am weird, but it makes me want to get as far from the flightline as possible. The only plane non-EAA owned warbird I've been excited to see was Fifi. The jets are pretty much just noisemakers and honestly, all of the aerial displays are kind of the same. It's bad to admit as a safety researcher but the only time an airshow display gets my attention is if something goes wrong. The rest of the time it's like "Oh, another loop....oh, look, a barrel roll. Someone's doing a hammerhead stall...." Don't get me wrong, I respect the cajones it takes to do that sort of thing, but it just really doesn't do it for me. Strangely enough, I'd rather watch just normal traffic. Maybe I'm weird.

I go to Oshkosh more for the educational seminars and to talk to the manufacturers more than I go to see the airshow or the rows and rows of planes. The only thing I go to the parking areas for is to get pictures and measurements of cockpit layouts, etc for our research. It's always a bit odd trying to explain to an owner why exactly I want to get measurements and take pictures but it's a necessary evil since there are often some significant variations between aircraft of the same "type" and at least having an average helps to give an idea of the starting point for the cases in our research.

That said, to keep attendance up (and revenue up) I will put up with the roar of the jets. It's not about what I want but making sure we can get the most people interested in whatever aspect of aviation appeals to them. I do think the little "war reenactment" on the flightline is a little bit much since it's so hokey but oh well....if the volunteers need their moment in the spotlight, let 'em have it. Anyone willing to totally give up a week of their lives to camp out and wear wool in July in Wisconsin is a die-hard. I couldn't do it.


WHAT? Are you kidding me? Out on the North 40, where practically all are pilots, we start "speaking in tongues" when a military fighter roars overhead. Ahhh and the sound of a P-51 or a T-28. Who the hell needs Viagra?

Whatever floats your boat man. Just be sure to clean up after your chosen paraphilia. ;) I will agree with you on the P-51....the T-28....eh, it's a weird sounding bird.

Sky Diver
11-19-2011, 01:07 PM
I would to see a lot more about electric aircraft.

Sam Kistler EAA 1067638

MickYoumans
11-19-2011, 01:53 PM
I like all aspects of flying. For me, I love seeing a good blend of it all. The last trip I made to AirVenture I thought they had something for everyone. I would like to see more fly-bys of homebuilts though. Most of the airshows were aerobatic and military planes. Considering EAA is suppose to be about experimental builds, i would love to see more experimentals have the opportunity to fly for the spectators.

Steve Buss
11-19-2011, 01:58 PM
Sam,

Look for more electric aircraft focus in 2012. We're already talking about how to raise the profile!

Steve

Lindberg
11-20-2011, 10:31 AM
"I am giving next year a miss simply because I have no interest in seeing a sea of yellow Cubs, and the tribute to the Tuskegee Airmen won't be enough to hold my interest for the full 7 days. I guess I lucked out this year with the 100 years of naval aviation celebration! But to be honest, without the large military presence, I doubt I would consider attending."


I hear you Scott. It seems as if Oshkosh is evolving into the "politically correct" arena and it will only be time before the "Occupy Wallstreet" gang make their presence. I have enjoyed the Tuskegee Airmen presentations. but not more than any other aviation faction. they have been coming to Oshkosh for years now and suddenly they are becoming larger than life. I have great admiration for them but only for the content of their character and a job well done but not the color of their skin.

Lindberg
11-20-2011, 10:49 AM
"I go to Oshkosh more for the educational seminars and to talk to the manufacturers more than I go to see the airshow or the rows and rows of planes. The only thing I go to the parking areas for is to get pictures and measurements of cockpit layouts, etc for our research."

Then what's the beef with military aircraft? And no beer tents? :rollseyes: Also any highly technical aeronautical discussions have occurred at the Acee Deucee Bar in Oshkosh. And the truly best part of the entire show is the arrivals of the rank and file which included me for more that 27 years. It is a big event and plenty of room for anything that flies and anyone who wants to see them. Electric? God help us all. EAA has gone green.:P

Cherokeeflyer
11-20-2011, 08:19 PM
Eaa going green and recognizing the skin color of the Tuskegee airmen are both wonderful ideas. I worry that the occupy wall St movement would not feel very at home at Oshkosh.. But I saw Wisconsin gov Scott Walker was made very welcome last year. He even managed to let the crowd know how many new jobs he had created in WI...wow.... I had no idea the EAA was happy to be used as a political platform...i was not amused.

steveinindy
11-20-2011, 08:46 PM
Sam,

Look for more electric aircraft focus in 2012. We're already talking about how to raise the profile!

Steve

Easier said than done: build one that actually is more than just a glider with a tiny motor. That is...develop a practical system. I don't foresee it happening within the next 10-20 years simply due to the weight issues associated with batteries. It's an interesting proof of concept and a neat little engineering challenge but then again I'm pragmatic and want to see more than just something that can putter around the pattern with a single pilot for an hour or two at a speed resembling the old Ron White joke about the pilot of his commuter plane leaning out the window and hollering at the goose following them "GO AROUND!!!"


Considering EAA is suppose to be about experimental builds, i would love to see more experimentals have the opportunity to fly for the spectators.

If I remember correctly, technically many retired warbirds are classified as experimental by the FAA. Or at least that's what I've seen in a few crash reports and been told by several people. I might be wrong, but I do agree that I'd like to a broader mix than the same teams and planes year after year. Then again, I don't like airshows that much. What's going on with regards to the flightline tends to be a sideshow to the seminars and vendors so far as I am concerned.


Then what's the beef with military aircraft?

The noise associated with the jets. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than having my head rattled by some guy compensating for anatomical inadequacy by engaging full afterburner.


And no beer tents? :rollseyes: Also any highly technical aeronautical discussions have occurred at the Acee Deucee Bar in Oshkosh
Can't say that I have ever been. Is that an invitation? ;)


But I saw Wisconsin gov Scott Walker was made very welcome last year. He even managed to let the crowd know how many new jobs he had created in WI...wow.... I had no idea the EAA was happy to be used as a political platform...i was not amused.

Amen. He's one of the folks I point at most often when I need to illustrate what's wrong with what passes for the Republican Party these days.

Hal Bryan
11-21-2011, 07:32 AM
Course correction...

Fair game topic for this board and discussion:
Did we let a politician use Oshkosh and EAA as a political forum?

Not fair game:
The non-aviation related politics of any politician, party, etc.

There are lots of other places on the web to debate pure politics.

Thanks -

Hal

Lindberg
11-21-2011, 10:17 AM
"Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than having my head rattled by some guy compensating for anatomical inadequacy by engaging full afterburner."

Two great "rules of thumb." always bring a gun to a knife fight and always bring ear plugs to an airshow.

"Can't say that I have ever been.(Acee Deucee Bar) Is that an invitation?"

Then you have yet to experience the "Oshkosh Experience." (EAA does not like the name Oshkosh, as it cannot own the name. Remember the Old
"Oshkosh" patches. When they changed it because they could not own the name "Oshkosh," I quit buying the dang things. I didn't know what to do with them anyway. I put them all on a light jacket and when I put the dang thing on I felt silly.) The Acee Deucee and other adult beverage establishments such as the Charcoal Pit offer relaxation and camaraderie after a long day of measuring instrument panels and rivet installation techniques....... Invite? But of course. You buy the first one.

steveinindy
11-21-2011, 04:23 PM
Two great "rules of thumb." always bring a gun to a knife fight and always bring ear plugs to an airshow.

I do bring ear plugs. Even with the earplugs, it makes me want to head for the other end of the field.


EAA does not like the name Oshkosh, as it cannot own the name. Remember the Old
"Oshkosh" patches. When they changed it because they could not own the name "Oshkosh," I quit buying the dang things. I didn't know what to do with them anyway. I put them all on a light jacket and when I put the dang thing on I felt silly.

That was before my time I do believe.


Invite? But of course. You buy the first one.

Deal...it is a business expense in my case after all. Just remind me come July.

Joe
12-01-2011, 05:40 PM
Unfortunately, due to budget cuts, the Air Force is doing away with all demo teams, with the exeception of the Thunderbirds and 1 F-22 Raptor demo team. And the F-22 team will be scheduled only 20 airshows for the 2012 season.

WTTN 16
12-01-2011, 05:54 PM
I think that Airventure is a perfect place to honor our military airmen and admire their equipment. But I also think that it shouldn't be all military.

Lindberg
12-02-2011, 09:26 AM
"I think that Airventure is a perfect place to honor our military airmen and admire their equipment. But I also think that it shouldn't be all military."


It is and it ain't.12031204

Cherokeeflyer
12-03-2011, 11:42 AM
I agree Airventure has everything for the aviation enthusiast but it's not a military airshow, so let's have a little less war and more GA...nice autogiro

AlexC
12-08-2011, 10:54 AM
I'm from the UK, and I've attended AirVenture for the last three years, and honestly I wouldn't change anything. Nothing this side of the pond can touch it. I can't see us ever getting a night-time show over here, the powers-that-be would never allow it!

Ozzie
12-09-2011, 04:39 AM
I've travelled from Downunder twice now to see AirVenture and have not been dissapointed on any day. I admire the way Americans honour their Veterans and i think that one day out of the week during the show should be warbirds and Veterans. Not many of the troops left from WW2 and not as many of the aircraft flying as there were so should make the most of both while they are still around.
night Airshow was brilliant. Our Regultory Body is also a bit 'Nanny State' when it comes to 'different'.

AlexC
12-09-2011, 07:09 AM
I agree with Ozzie regarding the way that Americans honour their veterans, and I also admire their patriotism which I regret is sadly lacking in the UK.

Returning to AirVenture, I find the running of the event to be very efficient, and I'm hugely impressed in particular by the lack of litter left on the field at the end of each day. Although the air display commentator makes a point of asking the visitors not to drop litter, I have the impression that this is not necessary, none would be dropped anyway. I'm ashamed to say that at any large outdoor event in this country be it an airshow, concert or whatever there's likely to be (in my experience at least) a large amount of litter left to be gathered up and removed by the oranisers of the event. Some of us here also have much to learn about general courtesy from the Americans at AirVenture. The traditional courteous English gentleman can be quite hard to find here these days!

Lindberg
12-09-2011, 10:17 AM
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of people who attend AirVenture are members themselves, Alex. You also have to consider that the type of person who is interested in aviation, pilot or not, is more likely the type of person who would make an effort to throw a napkin or paper cup in a waste container rather than just throw it on the ground. Just looking around at the people and you can notice that they are not your "run of the mill" rock concert, mosh pit, zombies.

AirVenture is a pretty safe and clean place. No stabbings, shootings, muggings and the scent of marijuana is rare indeed. The reason AirVenture is the way it is is because of the type of people it attracts. I sure hope it stays that way.

AlexC
12-09-2011, 10:41 AM
I'd think that there's a good deal of truth in what you say, although I got the impression that a fair number of the people that gather by the runway for the daily airshow are families who are just on a day out, and not necessarily that 'into' aviation, but are nevertheless good citizens who wouldn't dream of dropping litter.

Lindberg
12-10-2011, 03:36 PM
True Alex. I myself rarely watch the "airshow" itself. That is when I like to spend time at the exhibition hangars. I can only see so many loops and spins. God bless those great pilots but it's not for me unless it's something new or unusual. I do enjoy the military demonstrations and yes I cover my ears when they get loud. I still maintain that nothing gets the heads turning like a fighter or a big C-5 coming in.

But, getting back to the "litter" thinger, I truly believe that the type of people who attend AirVenture whether pilots or not are the type of people who would make an effort to put trash in a trash container. They are not your a total "reflection of the melting pot" if you know what I mean. The difference can clearly be seen when one goes to a State Fair. I won't even go to events like that anymore. Been there and done that. Heaps of trash, filth and stench. (I do miss the french fries, mini-doughnuts and pronto pups.)

Bill Greenwood
12-10-2011, 06:19 PM
I\To minimize litter at any public event, one key thing is to have enough trash cans and in the right place. People will often use trash cans, if they are convenient, but most people are not going to walk a longs ways to look for a can.
At Osh EAA, there are a fair number of cans and they have people to come around and empty them often.
Of course the people who started EAA had to set the standard of not littlering. I can still remember one day up at warbirds when it seemed pretty clean , but no less than Paul Poberezny himself was there picking up cigarette butts off the ground by hand. I am not going to pick up other people's cigarettes , but I made sure not to add any mess to the litter.

steveinindy
12-10-2011, 06:34 PM
Of course the people who started EAA had to set the standard of not littlering. I can still remember one day up at warbirds when it seemed pretty clean , but no less than Paul Poberezny himself was there picking up cigarette butts off the ground by hand. I am not going to pick up other people's cigarettes , but I made sure not to add any mess to the litter.

I had a similar experience with him when I was younger. It made me respect the man even more. I also had Rod Hightower last year tell me thank you for picking up a bottle that someone in front of me just dropped and walked away. People can say what they like about the "direction" the EAA is taking but I still believe we have some of the most decent folks I've had the pleasure of crossing paths with at the helm.