Touring Motor Gliders / self launch gliders

[Tim]

I have been looking for plans, unfinished kit or run out damaged motor glider, self launch glider. Does anyone know of any?

[Chad Jensen]

Keep your eye on Barnstormers...that'll be your best bet for finding one in that state. Otherwise, Sonex and Europa sell kits.

[Thomas Stute]

Tim,
one of the biggest markets for sailplanes and powered gliders is the German market. You may find on www.segelflug.de lots of offers. There will be no plans, but there might be the opportunity for a good restauration project.

Good luck

[Tim]

Thanks for the reply. I've been looking in Barnstormers and Wings and Wheels. Finding that Fournier or something similar in the rebuild or good for patterns only condition is going to take awhile.

[Tim]

Thanks for the reply. That looks like a good lead.

[holger]

Tim: check out http://www.wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm

Holger, a Moni motorglider driver :)

[normancanderson]

I've been following most of the leads mentioned ( WnW page 10, Barnstormers, several Euro/international posting sites) for a while, and you will find flyable a/c and maybe a few projects. I've seen one Europa in the past 2 years (a sketchy project - nearly complete, but with absolutely no usable homebuilt documentation), and a few very expensive restoration projects. I'd like a 2 seater, but I'm not impressed with the Xenos design. I've about decided to put together something on my own, with a result (hopefully) something like a metal Taifun with fixed gear, or a tri-gear Brasov. Anyone on this forum got some ideas on where to start on a design? I like the cockpit configuration of the later model Ercoupe (sliding canopy, side-by-side seating), but the Ercoupe tail needs to be lengthened about 5' to provide proper tail volume for an 18-20 meter wing span. With all the FAA 51% rule changes, can I use an existing cockpit section from a certificated a/c, change the tail, and design/build new wings, design/build a new engine/cowl installation, and meet the 51% requirement for a homebuilt? This would be my first design from scratch project (at least in 1:1 scale, lots of RC a/c design experience), so any advice is appreciated.

[holger]

I've been following most of the leads mentioned ( WnW page 10, Barnstormers, several Euro/international posting sites) for a while, and you will find flyable a/c and maybe a few projects. I've seen one Europa in the past 2 years (a sketchy project - nearly complete, but with absolutely no usable homebuilt documentation), and a few very expensive restoration projects. I'd like a 2 seater, but I'm not impressed with the Xenos design. I've about decided to put together something on my own, with a result (hopefully) something like a metal Taifun with fixed gear, or a tri-gear Brasov. Anyone on this forum got some ideas on where to start on a design? I like the cockpit configuration of the later model Ercoupe (sliding canopy, side-by-side seating), but the Ercoupe tail needs to be lengthened about 5' to provide proper tail volume for an 18-20 meter wing span. With all the FAA 51% rule changes, can I use an existing cockpit section from a certificated a/c, change the tail, and design/build new wings, design/build a new engine/cowl installation, and meet the 51% requirement for a homebuilt? This would be my first design from scratch project (at least in 1:1 scale, lots of RC a/c design experience), so any advice is appreciated.
Yes, there aren't many touring motorgliders out there. Just not many of us that want one, I guess. A 18-20m wing span scratch build is a HUGE undertaking. Years of planning, calculations, drawings, consultations, and more years of building, throwing away, starting over, building some more. Yes, you can use parts of a scrapped, certified airframe. It's up to the local inspector how much of your plane they can make up. Generally, it's not well liked, and for good reasons. Sorry if I sound discouraging. If you were thinking about a single seat motorglider I would actually be interested. There is no kit or plan on the market (that I know of), and I'm dreaming of an updated version of my beloved Moni. A single seat takes way less $$ and time to build.

Holger

[Tim]

There is one homebuilt out there that is called a motorglider that wouldn't cost a fortune to build, the KR 1B. There have been a few of these built, but all as single engine experimentals. I have a set of plans for this aircraft. The problem is that the wing needs to go from a 27 ft span to 35-36 ft to make JAR 22. The tail needs to be longer as well. These plans are still offered on the KR web sites. My problem is that I'm not sure how to proceed. I fall into the sport pilot catch 22. I might be able to get that third class but it could cost me most of the price of a 1 26 or this homebuilt. I've contacted some of the people offering design help with indifferent results, I'm on a beer budget and most of these guys seem to be looking for larger dollar clients; which is what I'd be looking for if I were them. New ideas sugestions are what I'm looking for. I have followed up on the sugestions from this thread with mixed results.

Tim

[holger]

Thanks for pointing out the KR-1B, Tim. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you're not required to comply with JAR22 to register a power assisted, experimental glider in the US. There are even Challengers registered as motorgliders.

Holger

[Tim]

[QUOTE=holger;8627]Thanks for pointing out the KR-1B, Tim. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you're not required to comply with JAR22 to register a power assisted, experimental glider in the US. There are even Challengers registered as motorgliders.

Holger[/QUOTE

I know that I've been told that for a certified motorglider JAR22 applies and that it is used for registration of experimental, amateur built motorgliders as well. I will be checking this out because I've been told by EAA that JAR22 applies. You may have given me the opportunity to build a plane I can really afford to build and use. Thanks

Tim

[Eric Witherspoon]

If you're worried about what can be a glider under U.S. experimental rules, check the FAA database for N328KF.

Photo I took of it, in case it's not familiar:
http://www.spoonworld.com/flying/nasm2005/nasm05_03.jpg

[holger]

I know that I've been told that for a certified motorglider JAR22 applies and that it is used for registration of experimental, amateur built motorgliders as well. I will be checking this out because I've been told by EAA that JAR22 applies. You may have given me the opportunity to build a plane I can really afford to build and use. Thanks

Tim
For experimentals, there is most definitely no requirement to comply with JAR22. It is very possible that you may be confronted with an FAA representative or other "professional" that will want you to comply with JAR22 - simply because he or she doesn't know the rules. It's on you then to lay them out and you'll get that glider classification.

Holger

[Tim]

I went through the 29 pages of Challangers on the FAA registry and found two registered as gliders one in Ca. without an engine and one in De. with an engine. The up side to that aircraft is that it must perform as advertised since there are a bunch of them. I understand want you are saying; do you have any direct experience dealing with the FAA in these types of situations? Thanks for your response, this conversation may help me and other builders trying to read the tea leaves of the FAA.

Tim

[holger]

I went through the 29 pages of Challangers on the FAA registry and found two registered as gliders one in Ca. without an engine and one in De. with an engine. The up side to that aircraft is that it must perform as advertised since there are a bunch of them. I understand want you are saying; do you have any direct experience dealing with the FAA in these types of situations? Thanks for your response, this conversation may help me and other builders trying to read the tea leaves of the FAA.

Tim
Hi Tim,

Personally, I have not registered an experimental glider. But I've dealt on long drawn-out certification issues with the FAA, during which I was handed from one FAA representative to another with varying and contradicting responses to my requests. The FARs are a complex set of rules and the FAA representatives are aware they can't know them all by heart. I've dug out FARs and sat down with an FAA inspector, and I got what I wanted. Most have been very friendly and helpful. So far I've been extremely lucky with the FAA.

It's not easy to find experimentals by type in the database. They need not be registered as "Challengers", for instance. The manufacturer is the main builder. The FAA therefore also doesn't give too much weight on the kit and its specs. It's the individual aircraft they are focused on. That said, if you come with examples of other experimental aircrafts that were classified as power assisted gliders and obviously don't meet JAR22, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it for your plane also. Look for Monis. There are 15-20 or so that are gliders. I can connect you with an owner, if you like.

Holger

[Tim]

Hi Tim,

Personally, I have not registered an experimental glider. But I've dealt on long drawn-out certification issues with the FAA, during which I was handed from one FAA representative to another with varying and contradicting responses to my requests. The FARs are a complex set of rules and the FAA representatives are aware they can't know them all by heart. I've dug out FARs and sat down with an FAA inspector, and I got what I wanted. Most have been very friendly and helpful. So far I've been extremely lucky with the FAA.

It's not easy to find experimentals by type in the database. They need not be registered as "Challengers", for instance. The manufacturer is the main builder. The FAA therefore also doesn't give too much weight on the kit and its specs. It's the individual aircraft they are focused on. That said, if you come with examples of other experimental aircrafts that were classified as power assisted gliders and obviously don't meet JAR22, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it for your plane also. Look for Monis. There are 15-20 or so that are gliders. I can connect you with an owner, if you like.

Holger


Thanks for the comments. I have written and called my local FAA to discuss this subject only to get the run around you discribe. The Monis are a good idea since most of them would not meet JAR22. Scary thing is that I seem to have to build the aircraft to get the FAA to take a look at it. This represents alot of resources and time for me.

Thanks again
Tim

[EuropaPete]

This one looks promising..... alot like the Carat.

http://www.hpaircraft.com/glidair/

Cheers,
Pete

[rampil]

Greetings,

I have some direct experience, since my EuropaXS is dual registered as an airplane or as a glider, self-launch.
My program letter explicitly states that with the short wings installed the a/c is an airplane with all the rights & privs assigned thereto.
When the long wings are installed, the a/c is a glider, self-launch.

I had to demonstrate "intent to glide" which I accomplished by 1) building a Europa which is designed to rapid wing transition, and 2)
installing a fully feathering Airmaster Prop controller. My DAR then wrote up the specific FAA language required in the Program letter.

My Europa also meets the MELs for IFR and for Night operations and so the program letter also specifies these as allowed operations in either mode of registration.

Not all DARs are knowledgable about these dual registration program letters. I had to work to find mine (basically a call to EAA ;) ),
and it was unfortunate that a popular DAR in central florida, an area where many Europas are built, was one of the uneducated. Several
builders I know went with the local guy and got very limiting operating restrictions.

Good Luck!

[Tim]

Thank for the info. Does your aircraft meet JAR22 with the long wings? Could you send me our DAR's contact info?
Tim