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Jazzenjohn
06-09-2015, 07:42 AM
Hi, I'm building what I believe is the first legal ultralight gyrocopter with a 4 stroke engine. I'm almost finished and I weighed it without the pod at 249 pounds no oil. It normally has about 7 pounds of oil for the HKS -700 engine so I need to know if oil is counted weight in a 4 stroke ultralight. I'm pretty sure it isn't in a 2 stroke ultralight. I can always put a chute on it, and I might if I need it in order to have a pod and windshield for cold weather flying. Thanks!

1600vw
06-09-2015, 08:40 AM
Hi, I'm building what I believe is the first legal ultralight gyrocopter with a 4 stroke engine. I'm almost finished and I weighed it without the pod at 249 pounds no oil. It normally has about 7 pounds of oil for the HKS -700 engine so I need to know if oil is counted weight in a 4 stroke ultralight. I'm pretty sure it isn't in a 2 stroke ultralight. I can always put a chute on it, and I might if I need it in order to have a pod and windshield for cold weather flying. Thanks!

Can the engine run without oil? In not then oil needs to be added. It should be in a state to be flown when weighed. Not in an almost ready to fly state. The only thing you don't count is the fuel needed for said flight.

Tony

martymayes
06-09-2015, 08:54 AM
Hi, I'm building what I believe is the first legal ultralight gyrocopter with a 4 stroke engine. I'm almost finished and I weighed it without the pod at 249 pounds no oil. It normally has about 7 pounds of oil for the HKS -700 engine so I need to know if oil is counted weight in a 4 stroke ultralight. I'm pretty sure it isn't in a 2 stroke ultralight. I can always put a chute on it, and I might if I need it in order to have a pod and windshield for cold weather flying. Thanks!

That's cool! Numerous FAA pubs regarding wt. & bal specify empty wt. includes undrainable engine oil only. So no, I would not include the weight of full engine oil, unless there is something specific to Part 103 vehicles that says otherwise and I don't think there is.

FlyingRon
06-09-2015, 01:13 PM
I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. By FAA definition standard empty weight is predicated on zero usable fuel and all the other fluids (oil, hydraulics, etc..) FULL. Many W&B paperwork does count undrainable oil at the starting point but that's not definitive.

Jazzenjohn
06-09-2015, 01:24 PM
In 103-7 appendix 2 it calls out the dry empty weight in the calculation there, and I found this from FAA-8083-30_Ch04: Empty Weight: The empty weight of an aircraft includes all operating equipment that has a fixed location and is actually installed in the aircraft. It includes the weight of the airframe, powerplant, required equipment, optional or special equipment, fixed ballast, hydraulic fluid, and residual fuel and oil. Residual fuel and oil are the fluids that will not normally drain out because they are trapped in the fuel lines, oil lines, and tanks. They must be included in the aircraft’s empty weight.
You called it Marty. I can drain my oil bag, but I have to count the 15-20 ? ounces of oil in the engine sump because my motor mount stops me from being able to drain it, unless I modify it so I can drain it normally. I probably should do that anyway as it is a lot of old oil to leave in the engine at oil change time. Thanks for the quick reply!

martymayes
06-09-2015, 09:12 PM
Correct - THAT is the standard FAA definition for empty wt. I couldn't see it being any other way for your machine. I'll be watching for some pics and first flight info!!


In 103-7 appendix 2 it calls out the dry empty weight in the calculation there, and I found this from FAA-8083-30_Ch04: Empty Weight: The empty weight of an aircraft includes all operating equipment that has a fixed location and is actually installed in the aircraft. It includes the weight of the airframe, powerplant, required equipment, optional or special equipment, fixed ballast, hydraulic fluid, and residual fuel and oil. Residual fuel and oil are the fluids that will not normally drain out because they are trapped in the fuel lines, oil lines, and tanks. They must be included in the aircraft’s empty weight.
You called it Marty. I can drain my oil bag, but I have to count the 15-20 ? ounces of oil in the engine sump because my motor mount stops me from being able to drain it, unless I modify it so I can drain it normally. I probably should do that anyway as it is a lot of old oil to leave in the engine at oil change time. Thanks for the quick reply!

Jazzenjohn
06-10-2015, 06:00 AM
This is the frame Marty, all welded Titanium.
4861

Jazzenjohn
06-10-2015, 06:02 AM
Starting to hang stuff on it.
4862

Jazzenjohn
06-10-2015, 06:05 AM
Mostly done, with the first tail, all aluminum, which was heavier than I wanted
4863

Jazzenjohn
06-10-2015, 06:08 AM
This is how it is now with the third tail. The second was too flexible and would have needed bracing which would have cut back on the weight savings it provided.
4864
4865

Jazzenjohn
06-10-2015, 06:22 AM
I made the pod and windshield easy to put on and take off. I will put it on if I have the weight, and I'm pretty sure I do. I weighed it at 249 in the last pics and the pod was 3.3 pounds with attachments. The streamlining will help a tiny bit, but the real reason for it is to make flying in the cold months more comfortable, to keep the wind off my feet, hands, and face/neck.

Mike M
06-10-2015, 06:31 AM
Hi, I'm building what I believe is the first legal ultralight gyrocopter with a 4 stroke engine. I'm almost finished and I weighed it without the pod at 249 pounds no oil. It normally has about 7 pounds of oil for the HKS -700 engine so I need to know if oil is counted weight in a 4 stroke ultralight. I'm pretty sure it isn't in a 2 stroke ultralight. I can always put a chute on it, and I might if I need it in order to have a pod and windshield for cold weather flying. Thanks!

I'm reading this late in the thread and you already have the correct answer from the regs. One reason for confusion on this issue is some manufacturers of certificated aircraft publish weight and balance information in manuals intended for on-board use specifying full oil, some with empty oil. So some of us think it's included, some not, based on which certificated aircraft we've flown, when they were certificated, and under which rules. Going to the FAA reference documents for the specific one you're working with is ALWAYS the best answer.

FlyingRon
06-10-2015, 07:41 AM
Looks like the question for the ultralight weight limit has been answered by the posted advisory. Drainable oil doesn't count.

But if you're ever asked what standard empty weight on certificated aircraft includes, the answer is no usable fuel plus full oil (and other fluids).

martymayes
06-10-2015, 12:15 PM
This is how it is now with the third tail. The second was too flexible and would have needed bracing which would have cut back on the weight savings it provided.

Looks great John! Keep us posted when it's getting close to flying.


(That blank white tail seems to me missing something....maybe a U.S. Post Office logo?)

martymayes
06-10-2015, 12:23 PM
But if you're ever asked what standard empty weight on certificated aircraft includes, the answer is no usable fuel plus full oil (and other fluids).


That won't be my answer.

cub builder
06-12-2015, 12:39 PM
From AC43.13-1B, chapter 10, section 2 "Weighing Procedures".

When weighed with full oil, actual empty
weight equals the actual recorded weight less
the weight of the oil in the oil tank( oil weight
= oil capacity in gallons x 7.5 pounds). Indicate
on all weight and balance reports whether
weights include full oil or oil drained. (See figure
10-9.)

-Cub Builder

4892

martymayes
06-13-2015, 10:35 AM
For a Part 23 aircraft, oil is included in the empty weight. ;-)

cub builder
06-15-2015, 09:36 AM
For a Part 23 aircraft, oil is included in the empty weight. ;-)

AC43.13-1B is written for those maintaining part 23 aircraft. Back in the CAR 23 days, the FAA recognized that aircraft couldn't fly without oil in the engine, so it was included as part of the empty weight. When the CAA became the FAA and CAR 23 became Part 23 under the FAA, the standard changed to not include oil in the empty weight. I would guess that was a change favored by manufacturers so they could tout a lower empty weight. So, your older plane certified under CAR 23, like a Cub or Champ should have the weight of the oil included as part of the empty weight. Newer aircraft certified under Part 23 don't include the oil as part of the empty weight.

That's the definitions as best I understand them. To me, a typical gasoline engine requires a sump full of oil, so the oil should be included in the empty weight. The plane I completed 18 years ago, I left the weight of the oil out of the empty weight. The two I have built since included the weight of the oil as it doesn't make sense to me to leave it out. :)

-Cub Builder

Jazzenjohn
06-15-2015, 03:16 PM
According to AC 43.13-1B chapter 10-2 Terminology, part b, the empty weight is calculated with residual fuel and oil also. The weighing procedures part from post #16 appears to me to just show an acceptable way to calculate weight and balance of oil and how to subtract it to get empty weight, instead of actually having to drain the oil and weigh the aircraft again.

martymayes
06-15-2015, 07:28 PM
AC43.13-1B is written for those maintaining part 23 aircraft. Back in the CAR 23 days, the FAA recognized that aircraft couldn't fly without oil in the engine, so it was included as part of the empty weight. When the CAA became the FAA and CAR 23 became Part 23 under the FAA, the standard changed to not include oil in the empty weight. I would guess that was a change favored by manufacturers so they could tout a lower empty weight. So, your older plane certified under CAR 23, like a Cub or Champ should have the weight of the oil included as part of the empty weight. Newer aircraft certified under Part 23 don't include the oil as part of the empty weight.

That's the definitions as best I understand them. To me, a typical gasoline engine requires a sump full of oil, so the oil should be included in the empty weight. The plane I completed 18 years ago, I left the weight of the oil out of the empty weight. The two I have built since included the weight of the oil as it doesn't make sense to me to leave it out. :)

-Cub Builder

Well, I don't know where to start but here goes. There is no CAR 23 certification rules. I think what you mean is CAR Part 3, which was the certification regs for light planes during CAB days. From the CAR Part 3, Subpart B regulations for "empty weight" (not "standard empty weight" or "basic empty weight" because those are not regulatory terms) it states:

§ 3.73 Empty weight. The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity location shall include all fixed ballast, the unusable fuel supply (see § 3.437), undrainable oil, full engine coolant, and hydraulic fluid.

So that means no oil except residual oil.

Under Part 23, full oil is included in the empty weight. The applicable regulation is:

§23.29 Empty weight and corresponding center of gravity.

(a) The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity must be determined by weighing the airplane with—

(1) Fixed ballast;

(2) Unusable fuel determined under §23.959; and

(3) Full operating fluids, including—

(i) Oil;

(ii) Hydraulic fluid;

Hopefully we are in agreement now when oil is and is not included in empty weight.

In CAR 3 airplanes, manufacturers invented a term called "Basic Empty Weight" (or equivalent) which they published in the pilot handbook or owner manual to facilitate weight and balance computations for pilots. The BEW includes full engine oil, but don't confuse that with the FAA term "Aircraft Empty Weight." BEW is not a regulatory term.

The diagram you pasted above (#16) shows how to get "empty weight" when weighing the aircraft with full oil. They use a complicated mathematical operation called "subtraction" where the weight of the oil is subtracted from the scale weight to get empty weight. Empty weight is what goes on the Aircraft Weight and Balance Report.

Jim Hann
06-16-2015, 07:34 AM
To throw a little more mud on the subject. Just weighed my Pacer. The form I used contains the EMPTY WEIGHT and the BASIC EMPTY WEIGHT along with the AIRCRAFT AS WEIGHED number. Because we had no good way to drain the airplane (i.e. I'm not throwing 20 gallons of gas away) we topped it off, verified the capacity with the dipstick, and weighed it that way. I also did not have full oil, so that was mathematically corrected also.

Everybody confused now?

Oh, and the FAA does define BASIC EMPTY WEIGHT in their Weight and Balance Handbook FAA H-8083-1A and EMPTY WEIGHT and you'll find that the water just got a little muddier.


Well, I don't know where to start but here goes. There is no CAR 23 certification rules. I think what you mean is CAR Part 3, which was the certification regs for light planes during CAB days. From the CAR Part 3, Subpart B regulations for "empty weight" (not "standard empty weight" or "basic empty weight" because those are not regulatory terms) it states:

§ 3.73 Empty weight. The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity location shall include all fixed ballast, the unusable fuel supply (see § 3.437), undrainable oil, full engine coolant, and hydraulic fluid.

So that means no oil except residual oil.

Under Part 23, full oil is included in the empty weight. The applicable regulation is:

§23.29 Empty weight and corresponding center of gravity.

(a) The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity must be determined by weighing the airplane with—

(1) Fixed ballast;

(2) Unusable fuel determined under §23.959; and

(3) Full operating fluids, including—

(i) Oil;

(ii) Hydraulic fluid;

Hopefully we are in agreement now when oil is and is not included in empty weight.

In CAR 3 airplanes, manufacturers invented a term called "Basic Empty Weight" (or equivalent) which they published in the pilot handbook or owner manual to facilitate weight and balance computations for pilots. The BEW includes full engine oil, but don't confuse that with the FAA term "Aircraft Empty Weight." BEW is not a regulatory term.

The diagram you pasted above (#16) shows how to get "empty weight" when weighing the aircraft with full oil. They use a complicated mathematical operation called "subtraction" where the weight of the oil is subtracted from the scale weight to get empty weight. Empty weight is what goes on the Aircraft Weight and Balance Report.

Marc Zeitlin
06-16-2015, 09:41 AM
I also did not have full oil, so that was mathematically corrected also.All fine.

Oh, and the FAA does define BASIC EMPTY WEIGHT in their Weight and Balance Handbook FAA H-8083-1A and EMPTY WEIGHT and you'll find that the water just got a little muddier.No, not really. Marty Mayes is absolutely correct here. Both 14 CFR parts 23.29 and 25.29 (for airplanes) and 27.29 and 29.29 (for helicopters) are explicit in stating that the empty weight includes full operating fluids, of which oil is one.

With respect to H-8083-1A, page 3-2 states, under the "Oil" section:

"The empty weight for aircraft certificated under the CAR,part 3 does not include the engine lubricating oil. Theoil must either be drained before the aircraft is weighed,or its weight must be subtracted from the scale readingsto determine the empty weight. To weigh an aircraft thatdoes not include the engine lubricating oil as part of theempty weight, place it in level flight attitude, then open thedrain valves and allow all of the oil that is able, to drainout. Any remaining is undrainable oil, and is part of theempty weight. Aircraft certificated under 14 CFR parts23 and 25 include full oil as part of the empty weight."

The last sentence matches up exactly with the language in parts 23 and 25, so there is no muddiness at all. It is clear that the current incarnation of the FAA expects that certificated aircraft and helicopters certificated under parts 23, 25, 27 or 29 include all operating fluids in their empty weight. While there is no such definition for experimental aircraft, the logic of the position is clear - if the thing is ALWAYS going to be in the plane when it's flying, then it should be included in the empty weight.

Seems like a big conversation over something that's particularly well defined in the regs...

Mike M
06-17-2015, 05:26 AM
....the logic of the position is clear - if the thing is ALWAYS going to be in the plane when it's flying, then it should be included in the empty weight...

and the orange juice just came out my nose! full oil is always going to be in the airplane? show of hands here, how many Lycoming flyers load it to the top of the dipstick for every flight and always find it there the next morning? did it evaporate after it was parked? maybe no Continental cub engines in FAAland consume oil in flight, but Textron publishes an oil consumption chart. probably because they expect the oil level to change during operation. oh, wait, so does Continental? well golllll-eeee.

Marc, thanks for the laugh. i know what you meant, and you're right. it just hit me funny. You and Marty are trying to use common sense and FAA documents to bed this down. i'd tried to do that earlier by encouraging people to use the pubs for the type aircraft they were working with. while the topic's certainly beyond debatable using y'alls references plus normal reading comprehension - and the rules trump common sense - i'm guessing the debate will percolate .... oops, coffee's ready, gotta go

Jazzenjohn
07-25-2015, 06:54 AM
I've started to fly the Gyro Marty. Had a little problem with the battery dying on me from a blown charging circuit fuse. I've since set it up so there is a backup pulse fuel pump and I have it set up so the alternator powers the CDI circuit so if the battery completely fails the engine will still run. I have run the engine and pulled the electric fuel pump fuse and it continues to run normally, I also pulled the battery and it also runs with the battery disconnected. I'm planning on taking it to Mentone on Monday.

martymayes
07-26-2015, 11:38 AM
John, that's great. I looked up the dates for Mentone yesterday and if I get a chance I'll ride my motorcycle down.