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Blackhills
10-19-2011, 08:53 AM
Greetings All,
I live in St. George, Utah. It is located 2 hours northeast of Las Vegas, NV. We just went to the pumps to get fuel for my Rotax 912, it now has ethanol. It was the last place in town that we know of. Does any one local know of a place that we have missed or within an hour drive? Is there a web-site that tracks pumps that do not have ethanol? Starting to build a DR-107!!!

flyingriki
10-19-2011, 10:13 AM
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=UT

This is the only one I've found so far. However they are listing sort of on the honor system. In other words, they may be wrong. Someone had listed a number of gas stations near me and when I checked them - all were incorrect. But, hopefully, that was an isolated situation.....
Please post anything better that you find!

Pat_Panzera
10-19-2011, 10:35 AM
I was at a local Central California AM/PM (ARCO) the other day, trying to determine if the pump I was using contained alcohol. I looked at every word on the pump, the canopy stanchion, the credit card processing island, everywhere- and not a single word concerning the blend was to be found.

How does one determine if the mogas about to be dispensed has alcohol in it or not???

Pat

Dana
10-19-2011, 10:49 AM
I believe it is the law that stations selling gas containing ethanol must label the pumps as such. This does not, of course, guarantee that the station is obeying the law. The only way to be sure is to test it for yourself (it's easy; search the web if you don't know how).

Rotax does allow up to 10% ethanol now. I would avoid ethanol in my fuel if I could, but I don't have that option in Connecticut.

flyingriki
10-19-2011, 11:47 AM
Not in California. Used to be true - but no longer. See this from Gas Buddy:
The fifteen states that don't require stations to tell you if the gasoline contains ethanol: (alphabetically) California, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Ohio.

turbo
10-19-2011, 03:27 PM
you can test the gas for ethanol. check with EAA for there test kit or someone will chime in on how to do it, very easy to do with a test tube.

Check 6
10-19-2011, 06:09 PM
Many marinas have ethanol-free fuel because of the damage that ethanol causes to some (not all) fuel systems. Confirm what octane that you are buying first.

rwanttaja
10-19-2011, 07:10 PM
you can test the gas for ethanol. check with EAA for there test kit or someone will chime in on how to do it, very easy to do with a test tube.

See page 7 of:

http://www.eaa26.org/May08.pdf

Ron Wanttaja

kscessnadriver
10-19-2011, 08:41 PM
Rotax does allow up to 10% ethanol now. I would avoid ethanol in my fuel if I could, but I don't have that option in Connecticut.

Yes, Rotax allows use of ethanol, but don't forget that the airframe (if certified) must also allow for the use of ethanol added mogas.

Blackhills
10-20-2011, 08:48 AM
Thanks everyone for the response! What are Utah state laws concerning ethanol? Why the big push to have it in fuel when it make no sense to produce?

Dana
10-20-2011, 10:46 AM
Why the big push to have it in fuel when it make no sense to produce?

Note the number of corn farmers in states whose senators have voted for ethanol in fuel...

flyingriki
10-20-2011, 12:14 PM
Thanks everyone for the response! What are Utah state laws concerning ethanol? Why the big push to have it in fuel when it make no sense to produce?

PACs for the corn industry. Jumped the price of corn, then beef due to feed costs, etc. etc.....
IMO

flyunleaded
10-20-2011, 06:27 PM
... What are Utah state laws concerning ethanol?

Utah has no mandatory state ethanol laws. Only Minnesota, Hawaii, Missouri, Oregon, and Florida have mandatory state E10 laws, all of them with exceptions for aviation use, but no guarantee that any ethanol free gasoline must be available. Washington has a mandatory 2% volumetric law which means nothing any more in the face of the federal Renewable Fuel Standards mandated in EISA 2007 which is having the unintended consequences of taking all auto gasoline in the country E10 by the end of next year. To understand why see: www.e0pc.com
(http://www.e0pc.com)

Why the big push to have it in fuel when it make no sense to produce?

Because in 2007 congress thought it would be good idea to reduce demand for foreign oil by building a huge renewable fuel infrastructure around E85 and flex-fuel vehicles. Hasn't worked out as planned. Congress embedded an ever increasing mandatory ethanol quota in the law without any requirement as to how the gasoline producers blended it. Since nobody wants E85, it is all going into making E10. Next year the mandatory ethanol quota will swamp the gasoline pool and after that they be swimming in ethanol with no place to put it. If you read the RFS section in EISA 2007 you will see that E85 is the only Renewable Fuel defined, E10 is never mentioned, but all gasoline is going to be E10. E10 IS NOT Renewable Fuel, it is gasoline laced with 10% ethanol and still meets ASTM D4814 which is the gasoline required by the EAA and Petersen STCs ... without ethanol.

If you want to keep track of where this is going as it concerns aviation read our fuels blog at General Aviation News (http://www.generalaviationnews.com/category/opinion/gafuels/).

teknosmurf
10-24-2011, 08:41 AM
I realize this may not be the ideal forum for this, but it is on topic so I'll take the opportunity for a little shameless promotion. My company, PortableFuelSystems.com, just introduced the Alcohol Separation System at the Copperstate Fly-In last week. I got tired of fighting the ethanol issues, so I designed the device to deal with the problem my own way. You can see it at www.PortableFuelSystems.com (http://www.PortableFuelSystems.com).

flyingriki
10-24-2011, 09:35 AM
Tekno,
Great system but what happens to the octane rating when you remove the alcohol?
Thanks!

teknosmurf
10-25-2011, 07:05 AM
Great system but what happens to the octane rating when you remove the alcohol?

Independent Lab Tests for Ethanol: Before 9.8%, after <0.1%
Independent Lab Tests for Octane: Before 90.8, after 89.5

You can see more system specs at: http://portablefuelsystems.com/AlcoholSeparator.htm
there is also an FAQ section for this product at: http://portablefuelsystems.com/ASSfaqs.htm

Thanks for the question!

Bill Greenwood
10-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Why do plane engines or at least some of the new ones like Rotax seem so sensitive to ethanol?
I have never heard of anyone having any problems with their car from ethanol in fuel, you can just go to the gas station and fill up with whatever is in the pump, as long as the octane is sufficient. Even that seems flexible as you can use a lower octane, certainly 87, even 85 might do, unless you are driving a Ferrari or some such high power car.Most any car, no matter what brand car gas or where the station is or what state works ok.
You certainly can get in any normal car, Chevy to Mercedes and drive across America, with no problems.
And of course some race cars run on alcohol.
Are pilots, or at least some of them making too much of a problem out of nothing?

And as for as a political lobby for farmers and ethanol, nothing new in that, you may be sure that the oil and gas industry has no shortage of lobbyist, Rick Perry, Tom Coburn, etc. for gasoline use as do any farm state for ethanol.

FlyingRon
10-25-2011, 11:48 AM
It's hell in the boating industry to. Ethanol is hydroscopic and it cause rust issues. I suspect you'd see problems with cars in humid areas especially ones that sit for periods.
There's more rubber and aluminum in your aircraft for weight and other reasons than your car. Both have issues with ethanol.

Eric Witherspoon
10-25-2011, 03:39 PM
Can't the ethanol have bad effects on some of the fuel tank materials we are allowed to use in aviation, which aren't found in cars? So it may not necessarily be all the engine, but the dissolved fuel tank heading through the fuel line that screws up the engine?

David Darnell
10-25-2011, 04:04 PM
Bill,
Most of the problems with ethanol for cars was worked out 20 years or so ago. But I do recall doing LOTS of carb rebuilds, replacing fuel pumps ,etc "Back in the day". Now that everything is designed to work with alcohol, not such a problem

teknosmurf
10-27-2011, 08:41 AM
Ethanol can cause all kinds of heck, even in newer products. For example, just last year, I had to replace a fuel hose on my lawn mower because it was dry, brittle, and cracked. It may have been a coincidence, but it just so happened that Arizona started putting Ethanol in their summer gas as well as their winter gas that same year. If it was coincidence, it was amazingly timly!

Some of the issues I know about with Ethanol are (and I learn more all the time):
1) Some fiberglass reson is readily disolved by Ethanol. The first separator system we sold was to a guy who had an engine out because of this very reason. Also, some boats are affected by this.
2) Some rubber will either swell or get dry and brittle in the presence of ethanol. I talked to one guy who was using ethanol fuel because his engine was rated for it, but came to his hangar one morning to no fuel in the tanks and fumes in the hangar...ethanol had ruined his fuel likes like my lawn mower...he felt lucky he didn't have a huge explosion when he opened the hangar door. BTW that rubber is found in carbs, fuel lines, and some fuel tanks/linings.
3) Some tank sealers that some people use in their aircraft are disolved by ethanol.
4) Alcohol is a cleaning agent, and can if you have any corrosion in your fuel system, it can make it flake off and clog carb jets and what not.
5) Alcohol attracts water, and can therefore trap it against metal surfaces, causing them to corrode. This exacerbates the problems related to #4.
There are more, but these are the "big hitters"

As far as the argument that racers have been using ethanol exclusively for a long time. Yes, they have, but they also rebuild their engines a LOT more frequently!

As a general rule, engines do not have issues with alcohol...it is usually the fuel delivery system that is the problem. So even for older cars, yes, they will make it across country fine, but they will likely need a carb rebuild more frequently. And if you want to continue to use original parts, you will continue to rebuild the carb. The antique auto industry continually deals with things like this. Some of them have even resorted to putting an inline fuel filter where there was none, just to help keep the affects of ethanol at bay.

Anyway...I am sure all of this stuff can be found in other places...this is just kind of a summary...enjoy!

flyunleaded
10-27-2011, 08:29 PM
Independent Lab Tests for Ethanol: Before 9.8%, after <0.1%
Independent Lab Tests for Octane: Before 90.8, after 89.5

> ...

OK, but did you completely test the sample to see if it was still ASTM D4814 compliant? You cannot use "washed" gasoline with an STC, only in a homebuilt, and I would love to see the gas tank label on your airplane that describes such fuel.

Dana
10-28-2011, 05:23 AM
Depending on the plane, it might not be a problem... the TC for my 1941 T-Craft, for example, only specified "73 octane minimum".

But how do you dispose of with the mixed water and alcohol after it's removed from the fuel?

teknosmurf
10-28-2011, 07:32 AM
...did you completely test the sample to see if it was still ASTM D4814 compliant?

Once you remove the ethanol from the fuel it is no longer technically 4815 compliant, mainly because of the oxygenate levels have dropped back down (this makes sense because the ethanol is the oxygenate...used to help reduce polution), and therefore not technically allowed in STC'd aircraft. However, as you mentioned, Experimantals are no problem, and as a matter of fact, I whole heartedly believe it works better in my experimental Davis than AVGAS.

In answer to the disposal question. PortableFuelSystems can only officially say at this point to "dispose of it responsibly and in accordance with local regulations".

However, we are actively working with lawyers to define what the federally expected method is. I can tell you that all components (with the exception of the water) in the waste solution currently have devices on the market that burn them as fuel. We are working with a company now that makes ethanol lanters, heaters, and stoves to get an "official blessing" to burn this waste in their equipment. We are also looking at the liability concerns to determine if we can sell our own devices that use/burn the waste solution.

Honestly, we expect the lawyers may come back and say that it is dilluted enough to just let it evaporate, but we will see what the final response is.

Bill Berson
10-28-2011, 04:00 PM
Ethanol has less energy than gasoline. So the carb mixture needs to be more richer with alcohol. My STIHL chainsaw would not run with the new E10 because it was too lean to run (would just sputter and stop) The chain saw has fixed carb jets. I had to use avgas until I found a source of clear gas.

Running a two-stroke slightly lean because of ethanol could result in engine seizure.
I have a mower that always ran rich (fixed jets also). Now the mower runs fine with E10 because it needed a leaner fuel.
Bill

Dana
10-28-2011, 04:54 PM
Ethanol has less energy, true, but that's not why it needs to run richer; that's a matter of stoichiometry. On the Cuyuna 2-stroke engine on my plane there's about a half jet size difference between avgas and 10% gasohol.

This is actually a safety thing for me... I normally run mogas with ethanol; when I go cross country and refill with avgas I don't have to worry about lean seizures.

-Dana

.

Bill Berson
10-28-2011, 05:56 PM
Also the range will be less(a safety issue if unexpected).
Will the power be less also? (also a safety issue)
Is is possible to get the proper stoichiometric mix with ethanol and gasoline mixed together?
Bill

Dana
10-29-2011, 06:25 AM
Also the range will be less(a safety issue if unexpected).
Will the power be less also? (also a safety issue)
Is is possible to get the proper stoichiometric mix with ethanol and gasoline mixed together?
Bill

Power and range will both be less, yes. Getting the proper stoichiometric mix is not a problem; it just requires a slightly larger carburetor jet.

Bill Greenwood
10-29-2011, 12:06 PM
I was just watching that tv program, with the Son of the guy that has Orange Co Choppers, the one in N Y, not Ca.
Jr and his new shop built a custom chopper motorcycle for the Dekalb Co. It had the farm motive, some wood grained side panels, Dekalb emblem, and lot's of farm and tractor type details in one bike. Jr said it ran on ethanol, and seemed to run very well and burned cleaner than gasoline. I didn't see the whole program, so don;t know if it was pure ethanol or a blend in gas, sort of think it might be pure. I didn't see the part where they were setting up the engine, don't know what changes if any they did do adapt to that fuel. I'll keep my eye out for a rerun and try to see the first part.

Frank Giger
10-29-2011, 10:38 PM
One the big differences between cars and airplanes is how much they are used.

Your average car is being driven every day, and the gasohol is getting rotated out of the gas tank pretty frequently. We don't see a lot of damage from water on cars because the alcohol is going out the tailpipe (and tiny amounts of the water it trapped), with fresh new alcohol coming in.

Your average GA plane, however, sits most of the time. Gasohol really puts one in the "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. Fill the tank all the way up to keep atmospheric moisture out of the tank and the alcohol will just suck it up anyway. Keep the tank drained and atmospheric moisture will deposit moisture on its own. The same happens on all the bits and bobs that alcohol can damage - it always seems it's worse when equipment sits unused.

fuel-testers
12-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Once youremove the ethanol from the fuel it is no longer technically 4815 compliant,mainly because of the oxygenate levels have dropped back down (this makes sensebecause the ethanol is the oxygenate...used to help reduce polution), andtherefore not technically allowed in STC'd aircraft. However, as you mentioned,Experimantals are no problem, and as a matter of fact, I whole heartedlybelieve it works better in my experimental Davis than AVGAS.
In answer to the disposal question. PortableFuelSystems can only officially sayat this point to "dispose of it responsibly and in accordance with localregulations".
However, we are actively working with lawyers to define what the federallyexpected method is...
Gasoline contains hundreds of ingredients - When you remove alcohol and/orwater from E10 type fuel much more is affected than just the alcohol content +octane drop -
Never ASS-ume!
Without laboratory grade testingequipment you would be unable to confirm (after alcohol removed) that gas issafe for use.

Take a look at the very advanced fuel filtration/purifying equipment used bygas retailers (cost well above 500K), and you'll soon realize it's not thatsimple with E10.
Over the years I've probably heard every possible method people have tried toremove the alcohol from gas - And aside from the professional fuel purifyingcompanies who have access to chemicals and testing to certify fuel, all havecaused unnecessary damage to their engines by running the washed,"tainted" contaminated fuel.

Gasoline quality standards, ASTM methods & SAE industry Standards are muchmore extensive than 4815....EG. See list at http://www.intertek.com/petroleum/testing/gasoline/or http://wetestit.com/gasoline.htm
Show me the test results for all required quality testing parameters, than wecould determine if the "Alcohol SeparationSystem" is not just another ethanol scam like "Mr.Funnel", "AquaSocks" and the zillion useless gas additives thathave popped-up since widespread transition to E10.

Dana
12-01-2011, 05:35 PM
I was in my local hardware store today, and saw they're selling ethanol free 94 octane gasoline in cans... for $119 for a 5 gallon can! ($23.80/gallon!) The store owner told me he's selling a lot of it, not so much for general use as for a last fillup and flush before storing a machine for the winter (I use avgas for that before storing my plane for the winter).

fuel-testers
12-05-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm going to write a summary to address several posts in this thread (instead of including quotes for each):

UTAH: Laws related to ethanol can be found at http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r070/r070-940.htm#T3
See rule: R70-940-3.Labels. (http://eaaforums.org/#E3)All motor fuel kept, offered or exposed for sale or sold containing at least one percent by volume ethanol must be labeled in a prominent, conspicuous manner," "This fuel contains up to 10% ETHANOL".

California: No longer requires pump labeling (long time). I confirmed again last month Nov. 2011, with Allan Morrison from CDFA, Supervising Chemist, Fuelsand Lubricants Laboratory,Petroleum Products Program,Division of MeasurementStandards, California Department of Food & Agriculture. All public gas sold contains ethanol- The amount varies anywhere between 2% (required) up to 10%, so probably worth testing percent with fuel-tester if you want to find stations with the lowest amount...(ACE, American Coalition for Ethanol still incorrectly lists California (STATUS REPORT) as requiring E10 pump labels -They do not.
Check ethanol-free station locations from Clear Gas (http://cleargas.co/) - (New) California distributor of ethanol-free fuel (marine and aviation). http://cleargas.co/

Oregon: New interactive map for Premium 91 Octane ethanol-free stations: http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
They require pump labeling for over 1.5%; In 2009 they passed law to allow sale of premium ethanol-free (mostly for boaters).

We have other resources listed on our fueltestkit website on page titled: find_ethanol_free_gasoline

We also sell alcohol fuel test kits (AFTK), similar to EEA, and EEA also offers their test kits with our quik-check™ indicator solution (QCS instantly reveals presence of alcohol).

Their review of QCS, awhile ago, here: http://www.eaa.org/sportaviationmag/product_reviews/quik_check.asp

If you need labeling laws for any other state, just ask.
There have been changes in a bunch of states in recent years - probably doesn't really matter since about 95% of all public gas sold now contains ethanol. And nobody really closely monitors the pumps for labels, so testing gas is the only way you can be sure fuel is ethanol-free, even in the states that require pump labeling.

Hope this helps- Good Luck!
Gail, Fuel-Testers Company

nrpetersen
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
Check your fuel sources even if they say they have ethanol free fuel. A local FBO (Northern WI) received a load of premium gasoline. A few weeks later my hangar mate's Cessna 140 (on wheels) swelled the inside of his fuel line. His engine stumbled on takeoff from Sky Harbor at the Duluth Lake Superior waterfront:eek:. I checked his fuel when he got home & found it to contain about 5 percent alcohol. I then called the FBOs where he had been refueling lately.

One FBO called back a few days later admitting that on checking, their fuel was contaminated and that their bulk truck had delivered the wrong fuel even though it was a certified load!.

The FBO then went thru their credit card receipts to try to contact everyone that had refueled from that batch but incredibly the credit card companies wouldn't release the names of the bad gas purchaser (security you know,,,,). There were 12 purchases they were unable to contact.

From that I'd say to verify that someone has checked each load for alcohol.

fuel-testers
12-07-2011, 07:44 AM
Check your fuel sources even if they say they have ethanol free fuel. A local FBO (Northern WI) received a load of premium gasoline. A few weeks later my hangar mate's Cessna 140 (on wheels) swelled the inside of his fuel line. His engine stumbled on takeoff from Sky Harbor at the Duluth Lake Superior waterfront:eek:. I checked his fuel when he got home & found it to contain about 5 percent alcohol. I then called the FBOs where he had been refueling lately.

One FBO called back a few days later admitting that on checking, their fuel was contaminated and that their bulk truck had delivered the wrong fuel even though it was a certified load!.

The FBO then went thru their credit card receipts to try to contact everyone that had refueled from that batch but incredibly the credit card companies wouldn't release the names of the bad gas purchaser (security you know,,,,). There were 12 purchases they were unable to contact.

From that I'd say to verify that someone has checked each load for alcohol.
Oversight of quality of fuel sold? At best most states only require once a year certification and majority don't even require testing for alcohol- usually just octane and other parameters.

For years, everyday we receive reports of (ethanol in gas) mis-labeled, mis-blended, over blended and other incorrect fuel deliveries or fuel contamination -And we're not even a reporting agency! (We are an ethanol educator, advocate and sell alcohol fuel test kits)-

I thought by now all pilots owned a fuel tester to check for alcohol (?)- The model we (and EAA) sell was designed by an aircraft engineer probably close to 10 years ago- It's reusable and costs less than $10.
We include the tester in our gas test kits - looks like a test tube with permanent raised markings in 5% increments from 0 to 30%, made from alcohol resistant hard plastic.

If you're not using the tester, you should at least test with Quik-Check Solution (available only from Fuel-Testers and EAA)-
QC Indicator solution is very concentrated, just add 1 drop to fuel sample, agitate-shake it up.
Negative: No alcohol, fuel color won't change. Positive for alcohol: Sample will turn a bright Caribbean BLUE color. QCS will also read positive if fuel contains any water.
Available in 6ml (180 drops), 15ml (450 drops) and other dropper bottle sizes.
Only need 1 drop per test -Based on $10.75 cost of 15ml bottle size, cost per test= about 2 cents.

Let me know if I'm allowed to add a coupon code or link here, for free shipping or something, for those that want to try quik-check.

Mike M
12-07-2011, 08:04 AM
Why do plane engines or at least some of the new ones like Rotax seem so sensitive to ethanol?
I have never heard of anyone having any problems with their car from ethanol in fuel, you can just go to the gas station and fill up with whatever is in the pump, as long as the octane is sufficient. Even that seems flexible as you can use a lower octane, certainly 87, even 85 might do, unless you are driving a Ferrari or some such high power car.Most any car, no matter what brand car gas or where the station is or what state works ok.

modern ground vehicles with electronic fuel injection for each cylinder and electronic ignition for each spark plug and oxygen sensors and engine control modules have CONSTANTLY VARYING MIXTURE AND TIMING to handle various fuels. after the engine is warmed up, the computer monitors the exhaust stream and can change the fuel flow without changing carb jets because there is no carb, vary the timing electrically with no need to rotate a distributor (or magneto). it's not just "pour it in and see what works, Bubba" it is science and technology in action.

Mike M
12-07-2011, 08:10 AM
Honestly, we expect the lawyers may come back and say that it is dilluted enough to just let it evaporate, but we will see what the final response is.

well, well, well. ignore engineers, environmental scientists, butterfly-counters and roughnecks. just ask the lawyers. why don't we increase efficiency and run the entire government that way? what? we DO? never mind.

Dana
12-07-2011, 11:58 AM
modern ground vehicles with electronic fuel injection for each cylinder and electronic ignition for each spark plug and oxygen sensors and engine control modules have CONSTANTLY VARYING MIXTURE AND TIMING to handle various fuels...

That's only one part of the picture. Older engines (cars as well as aircraft) typically have seals and other rubber parts that are not compatible with alcohol... that's the real big problem. Water absorption is another. Electronic engine controls would alleviate fuel mixture issues (a big issue on 2-strokes), but not seal or water absorption. Water absorption is less of an issue for cars that are driven frequently than it is for aircraft which typically sit for longer periods.

I suspect that if it weren't for issues with rubber parts, older style aircraft engines, especially lower compression ones originally designed for 73 or 87 octane, would run just fine on gasohol. Just watch the shellac on the fuel gauge cork!

Bill Greenwood
12-07-2011, 01:20 PM
I have never once heard or read or any car, no matter the age having trouble because of using gas with some ethanol in it. My 76 BMW doesn't have fuel injection or electronic sensors , it is just a plain 4 cylinder car engine with a distributor, and it runs just fine on whatever fuel is sold at the service station, same as all the other MB we had and my 91 does.

Do fuel companies deliver avagas with ethanol in them by mistake? Well, if it has happened I think it would be very rare indeed. NR , I would really like to get the name and phone number of the fBO that you say had the contaminated fuel? How about it?
And I have no financial stake in this matter. I am not selling Ultrallights or LSA s or Rotax engines, nor am I selling fuel or quickcheck things to check the fuel.

nrpetersen
12-07-2011, 08:35 PM
PM Sent. Many of us have had trouble with small engines running on E-10 too.

teknosmurf
12-08-2011, 08:29 AM
well, well, well. ignore engineers, environmental scientists, butterfly-counters and roughnecks. just ask the lawyers. why don't we increase efficiency and run the entire government that way? what? we DO? never mind.

The wording in some of the regulations can be interpreted many different ways. I will be posting a white paper in the near future that explains the situation and the way we have interpreted it. Suffice it to say, as long as our process is followed, it will be considered non-hazardous.

BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste. Our waste effluent is less than half of the concentration. The low concentration is a big factor as to why it no longer considered hazardous.


much more is affected than just the alcohol content +octane drop
Please, share your sources of information as I am finding it difficult to come up with good reliable sources. Most anyone with credibility is very reluctant to discuss it because of the potential economic impacts it has on their company and/or the industry. Furthermore, none of those people will tell you the real truth for fear of a lawsuit. Every one of them will tell you the most conservative answer they can (which is "don't do it" in most cases). This is where real data comes in...it would be great to know what the truth is, but no one is willing to share...and for understandable reasons.

A good example: I recently had an email discussion with a guy that has written a few articles for General Avication News, and he admitted that he is not in the industry, has never been and he has found exactly ONE source willing to discuss the topic with him, but nothing that relates to proprietary formulations or anything. He didn't have much basis for his writings other than what he has read online, and virtually no legitimate sources. Be careful what you read online or in magazines...anyone can write for those things!

One thing I can tell you is that we have and are continuing to do a lot of testing using third party labs (we do not have the equipment in house...it is large and expensive, as was noted), and we are working to get backing from Arizona State University to have them do studies and provide information as to what the negative affects are of removing the ethanol, what it does to the fuel, and what the environmental/economic impacts may be. I will be posting those results as well, but some of those things are time consuming as you can imagine.


Over the years I've probably heard every possible method people have tried toremove the alcohol from gas - And aside from the professional fuel purifyingcompanies who have access to chemicals and testing to certify fuel, all havecaused unnecessary damage to their engines by running the washed,"tainted" contaminated fuel.
I would love to see your report on what people have done, how long it took for engine damage to occur, and what testing was done to correlate the damage to the fuel. Do you have a copy you could post on here or email to me?

Thanks

Mike M
12-08-2011, 05:38 PM
BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste.

i can second that! send it to me and i'll dispose of it safely for you.

Holyize
01-24-2012, 02:47 AM
Ethanol can cause all kinds of heck, even in newer products. For example, just last year, I had to replace a fuel hose on my lawn mower because it was dry, brittle, and cracked. It may have been a coincidence, but it just so happened that Arizona started putting Ethanol in their summer gas as well as their winter gas that same year. If it was coincidence, it was amazingly timly!

Some of the issues I know about with Ethanol are (and I learn more all the time):
1) Some fiberglass reson is readily disolved by Ethanol. The first separator system we sold was to a guy who had an engine out because of this very reason. Also, some boats are affected by this.
2) Some rubber will either swell or get dry and brittle in the presence of ethanol. I talked to one guy who was using ethanol fuel because his engine was rated for it, but came to his hangar one morning to no fuel in the tanks and fumes in the hangar...ethanol had ruined his fuel likes like my lawn mower...he felt lucky he didn't have a huge explosion when he opened the hangar door. BTW that rubber is found in carbs, fuel lines, and some fuel tanks/linings.
3) Some tank sealers that some people use in their aircraft are disolved by ethanol.
4) Alcohol is a cleaning agent, and can if you have any corrosion in your fuel system, it can make it flake off and clog carb jets and what not.
5) Alcohol attracts water, and can therefore trap it against metal surfaces, causing them to corrode. This exacerbates the problems related to #4.
There are more, but these are the "big hitters"

As far as the argument that racers have been using ethanol exclusively for a long time. Yes, they have, but they also rebuild their engines a LOT more frequently!

As a general rule, engines do not have issues with alcohol...it is usually the fuel delivery system that is the problem. So even for older cars, yes, they will make it across country fine, but they will likely need a carb rebuild more frequently. And if you want to continue to use original parts, you will continue to rebuild the carb. The antique auto industry continually deals with things like this. Some of them have even resorted to putting an inline fuel filter where there was none, just to help keep the affects of ethanol at bay.

Anyway...I am sure all of this stuff can be found in other places...this is just kind of a summary...enjoy!

Somebody please keep quoting this for every page. We need to share information like this.


In addition, we also have to consider ethanol's effect to the environment. A lot of people are under the misconception that it's better for the environment because it produces less CO2 kg/l at 1.94. However, it produces more greenhouse gases than lead-free gasoline. Source: alcohol fuel (http://www.thedrugspot.com/alcohol/alcohol-fuel.html)

Aaron Novak
01-28-2012, 02:44 PM
The wording in some of the regulations can be interpreted many different ways. I will be posting a white paper in the near future that explains the situation and the way we have interpreted it. Suffice it to say, as long as our process is followed, it will be considered non-hazardous.

BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste. Our waste effluent is less than half of the concentration. The low concentration is a big factor as to why it no longer considered hazardous.


Please, share your sources of information as I am finding it difficult to come up with good reliable sources. Most anyone with credibility is very reluctant to discuss it because of the potential economic impacts it has on their company and/or the industry. Furthermore, none of those people will tell you the real truth for fear of a lawsuit. Every one of them will tell you the most conservative answer they can (which is "don't do it" in most cases). This is where real data comes in...it would be great to know what the truth is, but no one is willing to share...and for understandable reasons.

A good example: I recently had an email discussion with a guy that has written a few articles for General Avication News, and he admitted that he is not in the industry, has never been and he has found exactly ONE source willing to discuss the topic with him, but nothing that relates to proprietary formulations or anything. He didn't have much basis for his writings other than what he has read online, and virtually no legitimate sources. Be careful what you read online or in magazines...anyone can write for those things!

One thing I can tell you is that we have and are continuing to do a lot of testing using third party labs (we do not have the equipment in house...it is large and expensive, as was noted), and we are working to get backing from Arizona State University to have them do studies and provide information as to what the negative affects are of removing the ethanol, what it does to the fuel, and what the environmental/economic impacts may be. I will be posting those results as well, but some of those things are time consuming as you can imagine.


I would love to see your report on what people have done, how long it took for engine damage to occur, and what testing was done to correlate the damage to the fuel. Do you have a copy you could post on here or email to me?

Thanks

As someone that works in the engine design industry, I can tell you that it is common knowledge in that field that the removel of alcohol from the fuel will lead to other issues. Its just not that simple. Thanks to political powers and lawyers though, much information about ethanol in general is locked up tight. The problem is not the ethanol in many cases, but the fact that its blended. Honestly it would be more straightforward to run E99 as all the materials in the fuel system could be selected for that. Unfortunately petroleum and alcohols get along with different materials, and few materials like both. E10 is about about the limit that most petrol friendly materials handle, E15 is a disaster. Unfortunately the use of higher levels of ethanol allows the fuel companies to do 2 things for themselves. One is to sell more government funded fuels at a higher profit, and the other is the ability to use lower (cheaper) grades of petroleum fuels to blend with it since the higher E content jacks the octane value up. A 93 E0 pump gas can have completely different petroleum base stocks than an E10 93 octane. Honestly trying to remove the ethanol from pump fuel and run it is a gamble, and not one in anyones favor.

fuel-testers
02-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Skimming through these posts today, reading the same type of comments I've read in hundreds of other forums/blogs over and over, for so many years, leaves me with no other option than to give-up trying to motivate the public to take action to reclaim their right to buy E0 ethanol-free fuel...
First, I need to remove (E0 Fuel Choice) petition from our site (obviously I'm just been wasting my time) -

http://www.fuel-testers.com/fuel_choice_petition.html
The details, petitioners included in their responses, 100% supports that E0 MUST be protected and easily available for all...


I wonder how many here have signed our petition (on-line for over a year) or did something to get involved to reclaim availability of E0 in their neighborhoods???
(I understand you may not be aware of who I am or our site or petition, especially since we don't do any paid advertising anywhere, but you get the point I'm trying to make today).


Why have you (consumers), especially airplane/marine/classic car and other specialty engine owners,
tolerated the non-availability of ethanol-free fuel in recent years??????
Over the past 5+ years, as the ethanol producers & organizations have manipulated your legislators (and especially the EPA aka "Ethanol Promotion/Politics Agency" - sarcasm) most have stood by and done absolutely NOTHING...


1. No laws exist that prevent sale of E0...
Don't come-back and give me nonsense about the handful of "mandatory E10 blending states", since even those states have exemptions for aircraft, marine, small gas-powered equipment, etc...


2. Your right to buy E0 has been taken away primarily because of political manipulation and greed,
(desire to increase profits any way they can, by isolated industries, with the foolish/blind support of our government).

- The only exception to this may be the limited areas that fall under the "Clean Air Act" (pollution control) who chose to replace MTBE (when banned) with ethanol for oxygenation requirements, over the past 5+ years.

- - Instead consumers (the voting public of a so-called democratic society) waste their time doing ridiculous (useless) things such as, spreading false information on ethanol as a fuel and E10.

Examples:

- Posting, (again ridiculous), unsafe methods to remove ethanol from gas;
- Promote some so-called miracle gas additive product, with false claims that it will fix all contaminated fuel and ethanol-caused problems (does not exist);
- Endlessly reading and writing posts on specific damage caused by E-10, when probably over 90% of the time the problem/damage was preventable and avoidable;
(Almost always the damage was NOT due to good/fresh E10 gas, but rather E10 that was contaminated, over-blended above 10% or water-contaminated and phase separated... Still don't get it, I'll explain further:
When gas phase separates most of ethanol drops to the bottom of the tank, running this fuel,
now with somewhere between 60-95% alcohol mixed with water will cause damage,
but blaming E10 (10% ethanol) is inaccurate and not the truth...

Wouldn't it be easier to just buy E0 instead?


I would like to add MANY more examples since I'm fed-up with listening to the same ridiculous/misleading stories over and over, but this post would be far too long.

As for generous people like Sam Hokin, the owner of pure-gas.org who have tried to provide assistance for those who require ethanol-free fuel, I'm sure he too, like me, sometimes wonders why he started educating and assisting strangers to protect their engines and pocketbooks regarding ethanol in gas?
Keep in mind that the reality is, it is impossible to publish an accurate list of E0 stations,
(posted by anonymous people) since stations change daily, and all too often mistakes are made (E10 delivered to a E0 tank/pump), etc.
Details on Sam who is "a BMW motorcycle rider, programmer, math and physics teacher, and co-owner of IMS (http://ims.net/), an Internet application company in Madison, Wisconsin" can be found here: http://www.pure-gas.org/about

The fact that a lay person, (not in the petroleum or ethanol industry), started that site in 2009, and none of you seem to believe or demand that INSTEAD the gas companies and retailers and government should be required to assure availability of E0 and clearly label E0 pumps,
proves my point that after this many years, I must conclude that fairness and common sense in the gas/ethanol industry will never occur and
"our government is only as stupid as the voters allow them to be"...

Basic science supports ethanol (E10) is often an inappropriate gas type:
Ethanol/alcohol absorbs water (oil and water do not mix), is a strong solvent and drying agent, has lower BTU energy than petroleum, and more...

If even 1/10 of the population spoke out against ethanol in gas (and all the scams that have resulted from the now primary gas type sold, E10), I'm certain E0 fuel would return to your local stations (as a choice).

The unnecessary dangers and expense associated with lack of E0 fuel is unacceptable to me,
and I believe it should be for most of you too, whether or not you personally own an engine that the MANUFACTURER recommends or advises for use of alcohol-free gasoline.

Good Luck, and I hope a few more of you restore my confidence in the intelligence of U.S. public/consumers and engine owners...
We are not (yet) a socialist society where the government has the right to tell us what to buy and/or force us to use/buy products that we do not want, especially when they may cause us unnecessary harm or expense.
(I've heard far too many stories from pilots who attributed engine failure when flying to alcohol and excess water absorption in fuel tank).

P.S. If anyone would like to take over responsibility of our "E0 Fuel Choice Petition", please contact me (Gail) at (678) 935-1998 or fuel.testers@yahoo.com
I strongly believe that consumers MUST demand choice to the most appropriate fuel type for their engines, for so many reasons...
And, for aircraft, my personal and professional opinion is that alcohol-free fuel is the MOST appropriate, safest and most cost effective fuel type, (whether or not Rotax in recent years has approved E5 for their newest models)...

Bill Greenwood
02-01-2012, 02:31 PM
In the posting above, #4 says that alcohol in the fuel can "clog" your "whatnot"!
I am not sure if I have a what not on my old BMW, or my Son's new one, my other Son's Subaru, or any of the 4 Mercedes that I drive at times, much less on any of my airplanes.
I have never knowingly seen such a thing as a "whatnot", nor read about it in any pilot or maintenance manuals, and I didn't learn anything about it when I went through A F mechanic school, but that was a long time ago.
Maybe it is best that I don't know where to look to find such a "whatnot", because if I did look at it I might find it cloged and don't need that to worry about.

vaflier
02-01-2012, 07:53 PM
It is nothing more than another farm subsidy to the big farmers. As I understand it you use more energy to produce it than you get out of it and in addition 2 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol produced. This is nasty stuff and should be outlawed. It is very corrosive to aluminum in the presence of any moisture.

Jim Heffelfinger
02-01-2012, 08:37 PM
The performance power boat industry has solved the E10 problem.... they are openly suggesting 100LL from the airport.

nrpetersen
08-01-2012, 01:24 PM
Hi dear i want to ask a question that is this true that there are rubber gaskets used in the carborators of small engines..such as leaf blowers and strimmers ?Yes - and unfortunately the gaskets are not only used in static situations. Many engines now have little super-cheap fuel pumps that are part of the carb assembly. These "fuel pumps" are nothing more than a diaphragm of gasket material which has one side exposed to the fluctuating intake manifold, and the other side exposed to a couple of small one-way valves and a tiny fuel reservoir. The two small one way "valves" are an extension of a carb gasket and consist of only two tiny flexing flaps to keep the reservoir pumped full.

The reason this is done is to allow the fuel tank to be slightly below the carb venturi, and to give a constant fuel height reference to the fuel metering system and reduce mixture variations with changing tank fuel level. This is all done to minimize the expense of a float bowl etc.

The problem is these tiny flaps get all warped when exposed to E10 (or whatever) and then don't seal properly. The engine then won't keep running since that internal reservoir is never refilled.

BTDT - a couple of times

Bob H
08-09-2012, 10:55 AM
I have been running 10% ethanol mogas in Rotax 912 with high comp pistons for 600 hrs in Pulsar and no issues with engine or carb components. I do use auto fuel hoses which are resistant to ethanol degradation. My tanks are integral to composite glass structure and coated it with Jeffco 9700 novolac to keep glass from degrading and all is well after 9 yrs continuous mogas exposure. Would prefer a non-ethanol fuel because of higher BTU levels but unavailable in Calif so I fly with the 10% version from Death Valley at -210' to over 12,000' and no issues.