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67jwbruce
10-16-2014, 09:12 PM
I rejoined EAA hoping to get some real answers about sport pilot instructors, but these forums seems to be getting minimal usage considering EAA boasts over 100,000 members.

Who here is knowledgeable concerning Private or Commercial pilots (without instrument rating) pursuing the sport pilot flight instructor rating??

Thanks
JB

1600vw
10-17-2014, 05:21 AM
What is the question? Once you hold a PPL you do not need to do anything to fly under SP. If you believe you will not pass a medical you just let it lapse for you do not need a medical for SP. Simple enough.

As to this forum not being used much. That is not a shocker. All you have to do is look at who posts. You have a hand full who do this on a regular bases. I have seen more then once under new posts nothing comes up. But don't try and post something to get things moving for you open yourself up to these people. Reminds me of sharks swimming off the shore just waiting for someone to be stupid enough to jump in.

But its not just this forum this is happening with, people have come to the point now that they treat everyone like a piece of crap. If you are standing face to face speaking with someone 99.9% of the people who do this would not have the balls to say it to ones face. A broken nose hurts. Typing away at home on your whatever, no one is going to break your nose. I just wish we all had to wear our screen names on our shirts. People would not be acting like they do on this thing we call the web if they thought just maybe I will see this person today or tomorrow or next month.

Tony

krw920
10-17-2014, 07:48 AM
Tony,

I think they were asking what it would take to get a SP INSTRUCTOR rating. Just saying one should ensure they read carefully as well. :rollseyes:

S3flyer
10-17-2014, 08:06 AM
Pretty simple. You'll need to:



Pass FOI Knowledge Test
Pass CFI-Sport Knowledge Test
Obtain Spin Training Endorsement
Pass CFI-Sport Check Ride

Bill Berson
10-17-2014, 09:05 AM
A certificated Sport Pilot can get a CFI added, no need for Private.
I suspect the lack of Sport instructors is the lack of suitable LSA airplanes. Most flight schools are geared to training future commercial pilots in Cessna 172’s.
I suppose the reasoning is that a school based at a larger airport near a population center needs to have solid fully functional four seat aircraft for both tours and instruction. The students would need about 40 hours in this case, so Sport Pilot is not even considered.
A low cost LSA with no electric can't really function well in a big airport.

Dana
10-17-2014, 03:44 PM
I have a PPL and have considered getting my CFI-SP as well. The local FBO has a J-3 and they offer SP training as well as tailwheel endorsements, etc., but their only CFI with a tailwheel endorsement has limited availability... my friend who was pursuing a SP certificate gave up and decided to go for his PPL in a 152. Not that I'd be much different if I worked for them, I have a day job, wouldn't want to commit to the time to train a beginner student but wouldn't mind getting paid for the occasional tailwheel checkout or BFR. One issue with this is that if you don't pass a certain number of new SP students per year, you have to repeat the checkride on a regular basis, more hassle.

I had also thought of offering ultralilght instruction in a 2 seat Quicksilver now that they've said they will issue LODAs for primary instruction in ELSAs... but the requirements to get the LODA (detailed lesson plans, etc.) are fairly onerous. Now that the BFI program is dead, it would be great if one of the organizations that formerly had a BFI program, EAA, USUA, etc., offered a lesson plan program for SP CFIs so that they wouldn't have to create it from scratch. Unfortunately, EAA seems to have abandoned ultralights (and almost abandoned GA), and USUA does nothing but sell insurance policies.

S3flyer
10-17-2014, 04:05 PM
One issue with this is that if you don't pass a certain number of new SP students per year, you have to repeat the checkride on a regular basis, more hassle.

Actually, you only need a checkride if you let your CFI expire. You can take a flight instructor renewal course before the 24 month expiry. Plenty of weekend and online courses that qualify. And recurrent training every two years isn't a bad thing.

lnuss
10-17-2014, 07:30 PM
One issue with this is that if you don't pass a certain number of new SP students per year, you have to repeat the checkride on a regular basis, more hassle.
Essentially the same as a regular CFI -- renewal is due every two years, either checkride or renewal course or x number of student passes on first try.

skyranger2
10-23-2014, 07:25 PM
........I had also thought of offering ultralilght instruction in a 2 seat Quicksilver now that they've said they will issue LODAs for primary instruction in ELSAs... but the requirements to get the LODA (detailed lesson plans, etc.) are fairly onerous. Now that the BFI program is dead, it would be great if one of the organizations that formerly had a BFI program, EAA, USUA, etc., offered a lesson plan program for SP CFIs so that they wouldn't have to create it from scratch. Unfortunately, EAA seems to have abandoned ultralights (and almost abandoned GA), and USUA does nothing but sell insurance policies.

Did you look into exactly how onerous it is to get a LODA to use an ELSA for ultralight (or ANY) training?

As far as I know in the entire west coast there are only two FBOs with LODAs to use for training.
Both use Challengers. One is in Prosser Washington, one in or near Sacramento. About three(?) months ago EAA had an article in which they reported asking FAA to make LODAs easier to get, for the obvious reason that with BFIs and UL trainers aircraft gone, there is essentially no reasonable path into UL flying for a newbie. So maybe that's become easier since that EAA request. Currently, with the exception, maybe, of the rare UL training operation with a LODA for an ELSA the newbie UL student essentially has the choice of finding a CFI with a UL-like two-seater, willing to train a UL newbie, and paying traditional CFI rates, or as in the very early UL days, strapping in taking off, and hoping they learn faster than they get in trouble.
(FWIW: That DIY instruction is the way I learned hang gliding many years ago)
Both of the two places I know of with LODAs for ELSA trainerscharge by the time the student pays CFI and aircraft rental about $125 per hour for instruction. They AFAIK more geared to training Sport Pilots than UL pilots.
Cheap compared to getting flight training in a 172, but about 4-5 times as much as BFIs were charging before they were thrown under the bus during the development of the Sport Pilot LSA inititive.

By the way: I am one of the very few pilots who have come into aviation directly by getting a Sport Pilot certification.
The idea that Sport Pilot/LSA would create a significant increase into aviation has, now a decade after, proven to be a non-starter. The main beneficaries of the Sport Pilot/LSA initiative IMO have been (a) the unknown but presumably large number of older private pilots reluctant to take that next aeromedical exam and are flying with sport pilot privilages, and (b) the approximately 2000 experienced UL pilots who got grandfathered into Sport Pilot licenses without having to do the full 20+ hours of expensive CFI hours and got their non-numbered two-seaters certified as ELSAs before the door slammed on that.

ransfly
10-24-2014, 07:19 PM
I rejoined EAA hoping to get some real answers about sport pilot instructors, but these forums seems to be getting minimal usage considering EAA boasts over 100,000 members.

Who here is knowledgeable concerning Private or Commercial pilots (without instrument rating) pursuing the sport pilot flight instructor rating??

Thanks
JB

Hi JB,
I am a SP flight instructor. I have had a private pilot ASEL for about 21 years, before I got the instructor rating. I have just recently started instructing at a local flying club that has an SLSA X-air. I currently have 2 students. I think that there are 2 major problems for a sport pilot instructor-1. Finding an SLSA aircraft to instruct in, and 2. Any student that wants to go further(i.e. Private), the solo hours will count, but the dual hours will not apply for a private ticket. John Weber

jedi
12-31-2014, 03:56 AM
Hi JB,
I am a SP flight instructor. I have had a private pilot ASEL for about 21 years, before I got the instructor rating. I have just recently started instructing at a local flying club that has an SLSA X-air. I currently have 2 students. I think that there are 2 major problems for a sport pilot instructor-1. Finding an SLSA aircraft to instruct in, and 2. Any student that wants to go further(i.e. Private), the solo hours will count, but the dual hours will not apply for a private ticket. John Weber

And 3. the weight limits of a SLSA will limit you to light weight students if you are more than the standard 170 pound SP-CFI. 4. Will your students be able to find an examiner willing to give check rides in the SLSA the students use.

1600vw
12-31-2014, 05:08 AM
What I find interesting about SP, the FAA allows certain ways of training and not one CFI-SP will train that way. Example single seat training. The Practical test standards spell out how this is done. But no one is willing to do it.

Its like the LODA. They offer it but no one will get one, well two places got one, but no one else will ever get one. If you believe different you try and get one and see what happens then report back.

Tony

Bill Greenwood
01-01-2015, 09:53 AM
Tony, could you give us pilots of normal sized airplanes a simple explanation of what the rules are, without too much ax grinding, and maybe a simple version of what you think the rules ought to be?

As far as I know, if you want to fly a small thing like I think a Quicksliver might be one, that is a very light 3 axis control plane with usually fabric wings, a simple engine like we used to see so many of at the small airstrip at the south end of Oshkosh or east side at SUN N FUN; that you can fly one without being involved with FAA at all. Maybe I am wrong about this, but do you want the FAA involved in this? That way is more expense and more red tape, but maybe some extra safety.

As for having hours in this type apply toward a private license, maybe you ought to be able to apply some hours, maybe 5 or 10 for the most basic and if the plane is a new type LSA, say a Gobosh, mabye 20 hours should be able to apply. Still to safely fly a full size certiifed airplane, some amount of training in that type should be done.
I think anything that can get more people into gen av at the bottom end, if done safely would be great. There are some people who start in the ultralight area, and do move into reg airplanes, like JFK JR. who was CFI for powered parachutes.
But for most pilots there isn't much movement up.
My impression is that many if not most guys at the ultralight level are there because it is cheaper, and I know many if not most gen av pilots look upon the ultralights as too far from normal, maybe not as safe or at least not as useful.

I used to go down to the small airstrip ever year and beg or barter my way to a ride in one of these ultrlights, and had a lot of fun doing it, but haven't in a few years.

1600vw
01-01-2015, 09:45 PM
Bill we have those airplanes in the 300-500 lb range that are just as simple as the quicksilver you speak of. I never once mentioned having these hours apply towards a PPL. I am speaking SP. Get the practical test standards for Sport Pilot, its spelled out in black and white. No need for any " ax grinding " of any kind.

Tony

Bill Greenwood
01-01-2015, 10:11 PM
Well, Tony I am not sure what you mean by 300 lb airplanes and don't really understand what you are getting at, but it really doesn't matter since I am not involved in that area. Just thought it might be of interest. Have a good New Years anyway.

And John Weber wrote of having hours apply to ppl.

1600vw
01-02-2015, 06:26 AM
Well, Tony I am not sure what you mean by 300 lb airplanes and don't really understand what you are getting at, but it really doesn't matter since I am not involved in that area. Just thought it might be of interest. Have a good New Years anyway.

And John Weber wrote of having hours apply to ppl.

300 lbs airplanes. I believe you know this Bill.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEV78oi6ZU0hQA5HMPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBs a3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&va=minimax+airplane&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

Single-Seat Aircraft Practical Test Applicants for a Sport Pilot Certificate may elect to take their test in a single seat aircraft. The FAA established in 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) specific requirements to allow a practical test for a Sport Pilot Certificate only. This provision does not allow a practical test for a Flight Instructor Certificate or Recreation Pilot Certificate or higher to be conducted in a light-sport aircraft that has a single-pilot seat. FAA-S-8081-2910With certain limitations, the practical test for a Sport Pilot Certificate may be conducted from the ground by an examiner. The examiner must agree to conduct the practical test in a single-seat aircraft and must ensure that the practical test is conducted in accordance with the sport pilot practical test standards for single-seat aircraft. Knowledge of all TASKs appli
cable to their category/class of aircraft will be evaluated orally.Single-seat sport pilots shall demonstrate competency in those specific TASKs identified by a NOTE in the AREA OF OPERATION for a single-
seat practical test and any other TASKs selected by the examiner. Examiners evaluating single-seat applicants from the ground shall evaluate only those TASK elements that can be accurately assessed from the ground. The examiner must maintain radio contact with the applicant and be in a position to observe the operation of the aircraft while evaluating the proficiency of the applicant from the ground.
Sport pilots taking the practical test in a single-seat aircraft will have the limitation, “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-pilot seat aircraft only” placed on their pilot certificate, per 61.45(f)(3),limiting their operations to a single-seat light-sport aircraft and no passenger carriage will be authorized.Only an examiner is authorized to remove this limitation when the sport pilot takes a complete practical test in a two-place light-sport aircraft. This practical test may be conducted in the same or additional category of aircraft.Upon successful completion of the practical test, the limitation will be removed, and the sport pilot is authorized to act as pilot in command in all categories of light-sport aircraft that he or she has a make and model endorsement within a set of aircraft to operate. The limitation can also
be removed if the sport pilot completes the certification requirements in an aircraft with a minimum of two places, for a higher certificate or rating.



Jump down to the bottom of page 9 and you will find this info.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-29.pdf

Tony

1600vw
01-03-2015, 05:07 AM
What I find interesting about SP, the FAA allows certain ways of training and not one CFI-SP will train that way. Example single seat training. The Practical test standards spell out how this is done. But no one is willing to do it.

Its like the LODA. They offer it but no one will get one, well two places got one, but no one else will ever get one. If you believe different you try and get one and see what happens then report back.

Tony

:thumbsup:

1600vw
01-06-2015, 08:02 AM
Now that we agree one can indeed get their certificate in a single seat airplane, I wonder why no cfi will offer this for a person who flies such an aircraft? Seems like an easy way to make some money and have nothing out of pocket but time.

It could play out like this:
CFI to student
Get in your airplane and fly out to the practice area. I will be there waiting radio in hand. Once you get there I want you to do XYZ. After you are done we will meet back at the airpark or airport what have you.

The first CFI and student to do this will go down in Sport Pilot Aviation history.

Tony

1600vw
01-06-2015, 01:15 PM
With what we have today in FPV units, a CFI could use one of these along with a handheld and even complement this type training and certification even more. Technology has really opened up this type of training then just having the CFI standing on the ground looking up at said student.

lnuss
01-06-2015, 06:25 PM
I wonder why no cfi will offer this for a person who flies such an aircraft? Seems like an easy way to make some money and have nothing out of pocket but time.

I wouldn't want the responsibility, nor would I want to be involved in allowing the risk for someone without being able to affect any bad outcome. It has nothing to do with money. And I had that attitude way back when I was a new CFI -- it's MUCH worse in today's litigious society, in addition to the wondering how I would live with myself if something went wrong. There's also a limit to how well you can judge someone's performance remotely, compared to being right there.

If you want to get your CFI and offer this type of training, have at it, though.

1600vw
01-06-2015, 06:39 PM
I wouldn't want the responsibility, nor would I want to be involved in allowing the risk for someone without being able to affect any bad outcome. It has nothing to do with money. And I had that attitude way back when I was a new CFI -- it's MUCH worse in today's litigious society, in addition to the wondering how I would live with myself if something went wrong. There's also a limit to how well you can judge someone's performance remotely, compared to being right there.

If you want to get your CFI and offer this type of training, have at it, though.

First: You do not allow someone to solo? Once someone is signed off to solo just how are you going to help if something goes wrong?

Second: What responsibility. Its only you and the student who know what is being done. Lets just say something does go wrong. Just how does this come back to anyone standing on the ground? You are standing on the ground looking up at an airplane and you are in trouble. Why not just get in your car and drive off.

By this comment you would think I said:
I have never flown before and want to climb into a single seat airplane and do some training who wants to watch?

Tony

1600vw
01-06-2015, 06:52 PM
Like I said the FAA offers it, but no one will do it. If the person taking a check ride needs the person giving the check ride to jump in and correct something or they will crash, something is wrong, especially in something as easy to fly as an ultralight.

Tony

lnuss
01-06-2015, 08:16 PM
First: You do not allow someone to solo? Once someone is signed off to solo just how are you going to help if something goes wrong?
Letting someone that I have trained go solo in the same aircraft in which I have trained them is not the same as what you are proposing.

Talk to me again after you get your CFI and run through a number of students.

I'm done with this.

1600vw
01-06-2015, 09:57 PM
Letting someone that I have trained go solo in the same aircraft in which I have trained them is not the same as what you are proposing.

Talk to me again after you get your CFI and run through a number of students.

I'm done with this.

Like I said the FAA offers this and no one will do it. If the man or woman training for SP can fly a Taylorcraft not a reason in the world they can not fly a mini-max. I have trained in a Ercoupe. My eab is a piece of cake to fly compared to the Ercoupe and the Ercoupe is simple to fly. But not a simple as my EAB.

Tony

P.S. This is not about me but about the SP program.

1600vw
01-06-2015, 10:01 PM
Once a student takes to the sky solo, are they not in essence flying a single seat?

Tony

1600vw
01-07-2015, 05:04 AM
So lets recap:
The FAA established in 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) specific requirements to allow a practical test for a Sport Pilot Certificate only in a sport aircraft that has a single pilot seat



Never going to happen for this just is not safe for the student never having dual training in type.

I am amazed any Sport Pilot flies any single seat airplanes, just not safe I tell you.

The FAA offers it, but no one will do it. Says something for where aviation is going. Its amazing anyone ever took to the sky in a single seat anything.

Tony

jedi
01-08-2015, 06:40 PM
What I find interesting about SP, the FAA allows certain ways of training and not one CFI-SP will train that way. Example single seat training. The Practical test standards spell out how this is done. But no one is willing to do it.

.......Tony

Try me. I am willing to consider single seat training. So will Buzz.

1600vw
01-09-2015, 05:00 AM
Try me. I am willing to consider single seat training. So will Buzz.

Great to hear this. Who is Buzz? I looked and can not find him. I know I have seen that screen name.

Bunkie
01-09-2015, 01:09 PM
Once a student takes to the sky solo, are they not in essence flying a single seat?

Tony

True, but only if we are talking a about a 2-seat aircraft with dual controls. While it has long been established that single-seat airplanes have, at some point, to be dealt with by pilots new to the type, that's a different situation than putting a student pilot into a new aircraft type and soloing at the same time.

1600vw
01-09-2015, 05:25 PM
True, but only if we are talking a about a 2-seat aircraft with dual controls. While it has long been established that single-seat airplanes have, at some point, to be dealt with by pilots new to the type, that's a different situation than putting a student pilot into a new aircraft type and soloing at the same time.

The FAA wrote 61.45{f} so I guess they feel different about this then you do.

1600vw
01-10-2015, 06:40 AM
Researching this more I have found in the PP world this " Single seat checkride with instructor standing on the ground with radio in hand " has been done before. No reason it can not be done in the Sport Pilot world also. This was done in a two seat airplane but the airplane did not have enough payload to carry both a pilot and instructor. So the instructor stood on the ground and used a handheld. This was in a KR2.

Tony

Dana
01-10-2015, 07:15 AM
A checkride is one thing, training a student is another, though I have heard of instructors signing a student off to solo their single seater, after the student had soloed the 2 place plane he was receiving dual in. I'm more interested in a BFR... a friend got his BFR in a single seat Quicksilver GT400, though some people questioned the legality, and I'll be interested in doing the same thing in my plane in a couple of years to avoid paying the rental fee for a 2 seater.

Dana

1600vw
01-10-2015, 07:39 AM
This is about the checkride not about the training. But remember if you go this route your certificate will be limited, meaning your will have restrictions on said certificate. Later you could take another check ride in a two seat and have this restriction removed. Myself I like this idea or going this route. It keeps the small flights schools busy and keeps the younger or newer pilots hanging around the training facility a little longer. Once you turn these people loose how many come back, if they do its months or even longer before they do. This type of training keeps them around a little longer. I am not saying this to milk money out of the student, its a training thing. You will still need the dual time but solo and check ride can be done in your own single seat airplane.

How I would do it if it was me and I owned a training facility. I would push any certificate like this, small bites. I am sure others will argue but I like the idea.

Tony

1600vw
01-10-2015, 08:08 AM
Sport pilot proficiency checks may be performed in a single-seat aircraft. The FAA believes it is appropriate for an instructor to perform a proficiency check for an additional category/class privilegeto a Sport Pilot Certificate or higher,in accordance with 14 CFR part 61, section 61.321, using a single-seat light-sport aircraft,providing the authorized instructor is an examiner. When an examiner conducts a proficiency check they are acting in the capacity of an authorized instructor

Bill Berson
01-10-2015, 09:23 AM
Sport pilot proficiency checks may be performed in a single-seat aircraft. The FAA believes it is appropriate for an instructor to perform a proficiency check for an additional category/class privilegeto a Sport Pilot Certificate or higher,in accordance with 14 CFR part 61, section 61.321, using a single-seat light-sport aircraft,providing the authorized instructor is an examiner. When an examiner conducts a proficiency check they are acting in the capacity of an authorized instructor

What FAA document was this from?
I think a flight review with the instructor on the ground is an interesting idea. On my last review, the instructor weight was 260 pounds. Can this be done for PP flight review, or just Sport Pilot? Can it be done in my two seater when the instructors weight exceeds the legal gross weight of the two seater? (often the case)

pacerpilot
01-10-2015, 11:38 AM
You can do your BFR solo.

1600vw
01-10-2015, 01:05 PM
Bill I found that in: FAA-S-8081-29 with changes 1,2 and 3.

Byron J. Covey
01-11-2015, 06:11 AM
I rejoined EAA hoping to get some real answers about sport pilot instructors, but these forums seems to be getting minimal usage considering EAA boasts over 100,000 members.

Who here is knowledgeable concerning Private or Commercial pilots (without instrument rating) pursuing the sport pilot flight instructor rating??

Thanks
JB

JB

Welcome to the forum; there's lots of chaff here, just as there is on other forums, but there are seeds of information to be found also.

I don't kave any knowledge on your subject, but I am curious. Did you get an answer to your question?


BJC

1600vw
01-11-2015, 06:43 AM
JB

Welcome to the forum; there's lots of chaff here, just as there is on other forums, but there are seeds of information to be found also.

I don't kave any knowledge on your subject, but I am curious. Did you get an answer to your question?


BJC

The info he needs is in this document.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-29.pdf

Frank Giger
01-17-2015, 03:08 PM
Backing up to John "ransfly" Weber's post on the first page, if one gets the SP-CFI only rating, it's important to let prospective students know what that means.

I'm a Sport Pilot by training,* but my CFI was a full alphabet one (Private, Instrument, Commercial, and probably Space Shuttle) so if I wanted to extend my permit to a Private Pilot all of it would count. Indeed, my CFI made sure my dual and cross country flights were of Private Pilot distances rather than the chip shot ones for that reason.

This is not true of "pure" SP-CFI's. I've always wondered how a student with several hundred hours that trained with a SP-CFI and his PP-CFI would burn the required dual instruction time. Yes, there's the hood, the communications, and the night flying, but everything up to that point is in the Sport Pilot syllabus. I guess they could take several long cross country flights and do some BFR stuff and demonstrate the required skills to fill in the logbook....but what a huge waste of time and money.

* The kind of flying (Daytime very, very VFR in uncontrolled airspace) in the kinds of aircraft (Champs and my own 7/8ths scale Nieuport 11 once it's done) I want to do didn't warrant the expense of a PPL. All the additional skills of night flying would just wither on the vine, for example, as I'd never use them.

Not to say that I haven't done spin training and some instrument work as well as dipped my toe into aerobatics, but that was for individual growth as a pilot.

Mike M
01-17-2015, 06:59 PM
I think a flight review with the instructor on the ground is an interesting idea.

Me, too. No question then that the CFI needs no medical for the instruction. :) I endorsed a pilot for tailwheel by watching him do 3 takeoffs and full stops in his FlyBaby. He'd flown the plane a couple of years, "forgot" he needed an endorsement until his insurance company pointed it out.

Bill Berson
01-17-2015, 07:44 PM
Instructor on the ground should be as good or better than using the FAA seminar to comply with review.
But I haven't seen any document that allows it yet.
(private pilot flight review)

1600vw
01-18-2015, 06:40 AM
Me, too. No question then that the CFI needs no medical for the instruction. :) I endorsed a pilot for tailwheel by watching him do 3 takeoffs and full stops in his FlyBaby. He'd flown the plane a couple of years, "forgot" he needed an endorsement until his insurance company pointed it out.


That was really nice of you for helping this person. I hear the aviators of years past helped each other. I see the aviators of today only bitc# at each other.

Bunkie
01-28-2015, 11:36 AM
That was really nice of you for helping this person. I hear the aviators of years past helped each other. I see the aviators of today only bitc# at each other.

We only do that on the Internet and when someone cuts us off in the pattern ;-)

Bunkie
01-28-2015, 12:00 PM
I think that we're in one of those times when the future could go in one of two ways. One being that Light Sport might actually fulfill its promises and one where it continues to disappoint.

Here's the scenario where LSA comes into its own:

1) Mogas becomes much more available as the real price of a no-lead Avgas replacement hits home and the price differential becomes too much to ignore. The growing number of Rotax ethanol-tolerant engines is a factor here.

2) The FAA continues to drag its feet on 3rd class medical reform with no decision for the next few years.

3) The FAA doesn't back down on ADS-B requirements, forcing flight schools to really think hard about their training fleets.

4) The collapse of the Euro becomes a long-term phenomenon. As a result all those expensive Euro LSAs (and their Rotax engines) just (potentially) got 15-25% cheaper. On a personal note, I was *this close* to accepting a job in Ireland this December before the Euro collapse accelerated and which would have resulted in a severe pay cut.

5) With modern aircraft and lowered operating costs, the Sport License starts to look much better from outside the community. I wouldn't be surprised if Rotax started some sort of learn-to-fly program subsidy with their airframe partners to expand their market.

On a personal note, one of my ambitions is to instruct. I have a strong instructional background in my field and have a real love of it. I just might pursue the CFI-LSA rating if I can find the right venue.

The FAA could really help this along if they allowed some or all of the LSA training hours with a CFI-LSA instructor to count toward a PPL, but I know that's a long shot.

I think that ADS-B might really be the big factor here with the FAA raising the bar for operations in controlled airspace and encouraging casual pilots to stay out by segregating them to the LSA world, much as has been happening in Europe.

67jwbruce
02-25-2015, 05:10 PM
Hi JB,
I am a SP flight instructor. I have had a private pilot ASEL for about 21 years, before I got the instructor rating. I have just recently started instructing at a local flying club that has an SLSA X-air. I currently have 2 students. I think that there are 2 major problems for a sport pilot instructor-1. Finding an SLSA aircraft to instruct in, and 2. Any student that wants to go further(i.e. Private), the solo hours will count, but the dual hours will not apply for a private ticket. John Weber

Hey John, sent you a Private Message. I lost track of this thread, I know its been forever back when you replied.. Sorry
JB

fxflyr
05-24-2015, 05:30 AM
Hi JB,
I am a SP flight instructor. I have had a private pilot ASEL for about 21 years, before I got the instructor rating. I have just recently started instructing at a local flying club that has an SLSA X-air. I currently have 2 students. I think that there are 2 major problems for a sport pilot instructor-1. Finding an SLSA aircraft to instruct in, and 2. Any student that wants to go further(i.e. Private), the solo hours will count, but the dual hours will not apply for a private ticket. John Weber

Hi John Weber, I am a student and live in Virginia (near Roanoke) and I want to get a SP ticket. I read above that not much activity on that front. And I agree that locally it seems that younger students are getting PPL. I already have about 50 hrs in a Cessna 150 and some in a Piper J-4 from a competent local CFI. I have not solo (ed). I am prepping for the SP written test and can probably pass it. I am having difficulty finding a S-LSA or one with a LODA such that I can get some add-on training with CFI and also get past the CheckRide with a DPE. Any ideas? FxFlyr Tommy

fxflyr
05-24-2015, 06:27 PM
Hi John Weber, I am a student and live in Virginia (near Roanoke) and I want to get a SP ticket. I read above that not much activity on that front. And I agree that locally it seems that younger students are getting PPL. I already have about 50 hrs in a Cessna 150 and some in a Piper J-4 from a competent local CFI. I have not solo (ed). I am prepping for the SP written test and can probably pass it. I am having difficulty finding a S-LSA or one with a LODA such that I can get some add-on training with CFI and also get past the CheckRide with a DPE. Any ideas? FxFlyr Tommy

Let me add: just in this very thread there is mention of the single seat LSA practical exam. It follows from there that a CFI could grant me solo privileges with the same restrictions: no passengers, flight only in single seat (which is what I own: a single seat N-numbered E-LSA (grandfather rule year 2010)). Voila, it seems that I should proceed with the written exam post haste (since I am ready for it) and then work with my existing CFI to obtain solo privileges in the single seat E-LSA via the same logic and procedures that a DPE would administer the practical test (check ride via ground based exam having radio communication with me (the testee) and the DPI (the testor)). Ok I am seeking blow back on this reading of the rules. FxFlyr Tommy

1600vw
05-25-2015, 08:33 AM
Let me add: just in this very thread there is mention of the single seat LSA practical exam. It follows from there that a CFI could grant me solo privileges with the same restrictions: no passengers, flight only in single seat (which is what I own: a single seat N-numbered E-LSA (grandfather rule year 2010)). Voila, it seems that I should proceed with the written exam post haste (since I am ready for it) and then work with my existing CFI to obtain solo privileges in the single seat E-LSA via the same logic and procedures that a DPE would administer the practical test (check ride via ground based exam having radio communication with me (the testee) and the DPI (the testor)). Ok I am seeking blow back on this reading of the rules. FxFlyr Tommy

As you see no one will chime in on this. The FAA might have spelled out in the PTS and the Regs on how to do training in a single seat, but not one CFI or instructor will acknowledge this, not one I have found. Its just not safe I tell you. This is what you will hear.

Now taking someone who has never flown anything at anytime, I could see this being a problem. This person should get some flight time in something and some instructions from a qualified instructor, doing both ground work and flying the airplane or flight control work.

I believe the biggest problem is this. Most CFI's or instructors believe once you are turned loose to solo you are ready to fly a 172 or something like this. With the training we are talking about here, this student is ready to fly something like a quicksilver MX aircraft. Nothing more. Get some time in that then step up to something with a tail wheel. Also being a light style airframe with the weight of an ultralight. Even if it has an N number, but something small. Fly that for a 100 hrs or so then move up to a little bigger airplane. All being single seat. Something like a mini-max or Fisher ect..

To me this is a perfect routine for this style of training and really good for the school doing this training. The student sticks around for hundreds of hours, flying different style of single seat aircraft. The student has others to share there aviation dreams with. The school does not even have to own the airplanes. Make the student provide thier own aircraft.

Maybe I am looking through rose colored glasses. But this is how I would do it.

Tony

ransfly
05-25-2015, 02:02 PM
Let me add: just in this very thread there is mention of the single seat LSA practical exam. It follows from there that a CFI could grant me solo privileges with the same restrictions: no passengers, flight only in single seat (which is what I own: a single seat N-numbered E-LSA (grandfather rule year 2010)). Voila, it seems that I should proceed with the written exam post haste (since I am ready for it) and then work with my existing CFI to obtain solo privileges in the single seat E-LSA via the same logic and procedures that a DPE would administer the practical test (check ride via ground based exam having radio communication with me (the testee) and the DPI (the testor)). Ok I am seeking blow back on this reading of the rules. FxFlyr Tommy

Hi Tommy,
Another consideration if finances would allow it, would be to take a week or two and go to a Light Sport type school. I believe there is one in NC, look on Barnstormers.com, they train in a champ. First landings here in central Fl(Apopka) is another school that is very busy. Have you not done your solo due to not having a medical for the 150 or just not ready? I was just talking about this with a potential student yesterday, and I told him that I would not be comfortable signing him off to solo a single place unless I felt that he was VERY competent soloing the 2 seat trainer. Another consideration would be to sell the single place and buy an inexpensive two seater(if there is such a thing) if your CFI would be comfortable flying it. I was fortunate that my instructor for my CFI-Sport would fly in my Rans S-6 and the DPE would also fly in the Rans. Bottom line, I don't know that there is a simple, easy, inexpensive answer. John Weber

Mike M
05-25-2015, 04:55 PM
Let me add: just in this very thread there is mention of the single seat LSA practical exam. It follows from there that a CFI could grant me solo privileges with the same restrictions: no passengers, flight only in single seat (which is what I own: a single seat N-numbered E-LSA (grandfather rule year 2010)). Voila, it seems that I should proceed with the written exam post haste (since I am ready for it) and then work with my existing CFI to obtain solo privileges in the single seat E-LSA via the same logic and procedures that a DPE would administer the practical test (check ride via ground based exam having radio communication with me (the testee) and the DPI (the testor)). Ok I am seeking blow back on this reading of the rules. FxFlyr Tommy

You have been flying your single seat N-numbered E-LSA since before it was an E-LSA, correct?

67jwbruce
07-18-2015, 10:26 PM
Keep after it Tommy. I finally finished it up yesterday. I'm now a sport CFI. I got to do some really cool stuff on the way to getting it, but mostly it's been a bunch of drama. There a flight school with one and a club with one within my driving distance. The straight up rental is 2.5 hours from me by car (1 by plane), and the club is 1 by car and .5 by plane. They are both pretty dis-functional. I'm going to do my best to come up with something nice and vintage that I can afford so that people looking to fly sport in my area can do so. I am thinking cub, luscombe, vagabond, something like that. If I can figure out how to make it pay its own way, then maybe someday I can add something like a legend...

You have to get real stubborn to get anything done when it comes to aviation...
JB

67jwbruce
07-19-2015, 07:52 PM
Let me add: just in this very thread there is mention of the single seat LSA practical exam. It follows from there that a CFI could grant me solo privileges with the same restrictions: no passengers, flight only in single seat (which is what I own: a single seat N-numbered E-LSA (grandfather rule year 2010)). Voila, it seems that I should proceed with the written exam post haste (since I am ready for it) and then work with my existing CFI to obtain solo privileges in the single seat E-LSA via the same logic and procedures that a DPE would administer the practical test (check ride via ground based exam having radio communication with me (the testee) and the DPI (the testor)). Ok I am seeking blow back on this reading of the rules. FxFlyr Tommy

You would think that it would follow that a CFI could work with you in your single seat A/C, but everything I've been studying says that it is not allowed. Not just that they aren't going to do it because of liability or what not. They can't sing off flight instruction for anyone they can't fly with. Yes, you can take a single seat check ride and a single seat proficiency check, but there's no such thing that I've seen as single seat flight instruction. -sorry

But what is it, 20 hours or so in a 2 seater and you'd be ready to go in your single seater as a sport pilot.

1600vw
07-20-2015, 07:49 AM
You would think that it would follow that a CFI could work with you in your single seat A/C, but everything I've been studying says that it is not allowed. Not just that they aren't going to do it because of liability or what not. They can't sing off flight instruction for anyone they can't fly with. Yes, you can take a single seat check ride and a single seat proficiency check, but there's no such thing that I've seen as single seat flight instruction. -sorry

But what is it, 20 hours or so in a 2 seater and you'd be ready to go in your single seater as a sport pilot.

I believe its 15 hrs dual time. 20 hrs total for a SP certificate.

Tony

67jwbruce
07-20-2015, 09:48 PM
I believe its 15 hrs dual time. 20 hrs total for a SP certificate.

Tony

Yes, that sounds right, but the 'or so' tries to account for the statistics that most candidates aren't going to be able to perform to PTS after 20 hours. I flew almost 50 hours in support of the rating, 20 in LSA skycatchers, 22 getting to and from the rental facility (and extra practice of the maneuvers) in my regular 4 seater, and another 4 or 5 in other aircraft (super decathalon, C150 taildragger, and C152) on spin training, tailwheel endorsement, and more practicing the maneuvers, and I still gave the examiner a couple of places he could have sunk his claws in me if he had been out to get me... I was really fortunate, he was a great guy, and I learned a lot from him as well.

JB

1600vw
07-21-2015, 05:36 AM
I believe the people who wrote this rule understood what it took to get this certificate. For anyone to say that it can not be done in that amount of time, are really saying, the people who wrote this rule have no idea what it takes to get this certificate, they are clueless.

I don't see it that way. I see it like this. It can never be done in that amount of time because as a CFI, this person needs to make more money. 20 hrs is just not enough time for them to line thier pockets with your hard earned cash.

So what is it? The people who wrote this rule are clueless? Or they just do not understand aviation? Or the CFI saying this can never be done in this amount of time is smarter then anyone who wrote this rule. Or is it about money.

I find it entertaining when someone says that this certificate can never be had in the amount of time allotted. Really, then why did the folks in power who wrote the rule allow this or call for 20 hrs?

Let the bashing start.

Tony Sweet

67jwbruce
07-21-2015, 06:45 AM
No bashing from me. I have worked with plenty of the guys who wanted to be lining their pockets. The flight school with the skycatcher wanted 10 more hours of ground out of me in prep for the oral. Their justification was the their new flight instructor put in 30, just ground, I was fortunate to have an option in backup.

I'm told that I'll learn more in my next 10 hours than I have ever, so hopefully it won't be long before I have an idea of what the typical student is capable of.

ransfly
07-22-2015, 06:19 PM
I am a relatively new light sport CFI and have been working in a flying club since last fall. Most of my students are retirees from the area and I will say that for 2 of them, there is no way that they would be able to get their license in 20 hours. I just started with a new student the beginning of this month and I think that he will probably be able to be close to the 20 hour mark. Yep, I am still learning as well. I have found that trying to instruct them according to a syllabus like the one Gleim has for sport pilot just doesn't work. They got frustrated, I got frustrated and then had the epiphany of just making the lessons fun-review the past skills, try to learn a new skill, but just for them to have fun. That is really what sport pilot is about. I just instruct part-time 2 days a week. My "real" job is what pays the bills, I instruct to try and pass along what I know and to have fun. Yes, it is nice to be paid for flying rather than always having to pay, but this certainly is NOT a "line my pockets" affair to me. You should also compare the private license as well. Can be had at 40 hours, but the average these days is about 80 hours. Everyone's skill levels are different-if you flew with me and didn't have what it takes to solo at less then 10 hours, you wouldn't solo until I felt the skills were there. John Weber.

1600vw
07-22-2015, 07:40 PM
I am a relatively new light sport CFI and have been working in a flying club since last fall. Most of my students are retirees from the area and I will say that for 2 of them, there is no way that they would be able to get their license in 20 hours. I just started with a new student the beginning of this month and I think that he will probably be able to be close to the 20 hour mark. Yep, I am still learning as well. I have found that trying to instruct them according to a syllabus like the one Gleim has for sport pilot just doesn't work. They got frustrated, I got frustrated and then had the epiphany of just making the lessons fun-review the past skills, try to learn a new skill, but just for them to have fun. That is really what sport pilot is about. I just instruct part-time 2 days a week. My "real" job is what pays the bills, I instruct to try and pass along what I know and to have fun. Yes, it is nice to be paid for flying rather than always having to pay, but this certainly is NOT a "line my pockets" affair to me. You should also compare the private license as well. Can be had at 40 hours, but the average these days is about 80 hours. Everyone's skill levels are different-if you flew with me and didn't have what it takes to solo at less then 10 hours, you wouldn't solo until I felt the skills were there. John Weber.

I love this. We need a like button. Thanks for taking the time to write this. We need more like you.

The thing with SP and not so with GA or PP is the different level of certificate one can get. Meaning when flying SP one can choice to never fly nothing but a single seat, non electric, airplane. Never going anywhere are carrying any passengers.

This person will not need some of the training as the Sport Pilot who will want to travel from state to state, flying into towered airfields.

So really when one asks how many hrs does it take to get a SP certificate it really depends on the mission of the person getting the certificate.

This is just me. But if I was doing this training, I would start all my SP students out on what I would call the Entry level Training and Certificate. This would be a certificate that allows one to fly a simple single seat airplane. After say 100 hrs of flying that we can go up a level. Take aviation in bites not in one big gulp. This gets the new student or certificate holder up in the air flying faster. They then can grow at their own pace. Some may never go any farther. And some may want to advance faster.

Its very personal.

Tony

VFR-on-top
07-23-2015, 12:37 AM
This has been a good thread. Thanks for the contributions.