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jody
07-10-2014, 01:44 AM
Several of us (5) friends are building a two place Kolb M3X. Will any or hopefully all of us (since we own it together) be able to get LSA training in it when its ready for flight. We need help finding the rule that covers our situation.
Thanks for any help.
Jody

Buzz
07-10-2014, 05:21 AM
Several of us (5) friends are building a two place Kolb M3X. Will any or hopefully all of us (since we own it together) be able to get LSA training in it when its ready for flight. We need help finding the rule that covers our situation.
Thanks for any help.
JodyI don't believe there is a rule that says you can get instruction in an aircraft that you own. That is a given. You can get instruction in anything that you own.

Rather, there is a rule that says an instructor can't give commercial instruction in an ELSA. What that means is the instructor could not instruct any non-owner in your ELSA. He can only instruct someone that is an owner.

Hope that helps.

martymayes
07-10-2014, 06:21 AM
Jody - I agree with Buzz. There is nothing to prevent you and the 4 other owners from receiving flight training in your aircraft. It would be great if you could find one LSA instructor to teach all of you. Good luck!

FlyingRon
07-10-2014, 11:08 AM
I agree with the previous statements. Frankly, I think it's a misinterpretation of the regs that even an instructor can't provide instruction in an experimental (ELSA or otherwise). The ban is for carrying passengers for hire and the FAA otherwise doesn't consider flight instruction to be a for hire operation (even when the instructor provides the aircraft). However a lot of the FAA offices hold with their interpretation that it is not permitted so we're stuck with it.

Buzz
07-11-2014, 03:49 AM
I agree with the previous statements. Frankly, I think it's a misinterpretation of the regs that even an instructor can't provide instruction in an experimental (ELSA or otherwise). Just to make ensure we don't confuse anyone that doesn't read the complete thread.

The way the regs work is an instructor can provide instruction in an experimental only to the owner of the experimental. [And by "instruction", it means time loggable towards a license.]

FlyingRon
07-11-2014, 06:26 AM
Just to make ensure we don't confuse anyone that doesn't read the complete thread.

The way the regs work is an instructor can provide instruction in an experimental only to the owner of the experimental. [And by "instruction", it means time loggable towards a license.]

That is the current interpretation but it is NOT supported by the regs.

jody
07-11-2014, 11:42 PM
What do the regs say about it? That's what I can't find. Also: does it apply only to E lsa or also to AB lsa AND hoping that the ownership part would apply to all 5 of us owners.
Thanks for all your help.

1600vw
07-12-2014, 04:09 AM
You can get instruction in anything that you own.


This really is not correct. For even though the regs state you can get training in a single seat with the CFI standing on the ground using a radio. I have yet to see this done.

Tony

FlyingRon
07-12-2014, 07:14 AM
This really is not correct. For even though the regs state you can get training in a single seat with the CFI standing on the ground using a radio. I have yet to see this done.

Tony

And which reg would that be? In fact, the regs specifically preclude that.

Buzz
07-12-2014, 08:29 AM
That is the current interpretation but it is NOT supported by the regs.
Ron, could you please clarify which regs don't support it. I am, in deed, sharing the current interpretation. If it's in conflict with the regs, could you clarify which ones those are for all of us.

A good discussion we're having if the common interpretation of the regs is confused.

Thanks!

-Buzz

Buzz
07-12-2014, 09:43 AM
This might settle it. Something from an FAA guy on this.

http://www.iflyamerica.org/flight_training_expermental.asp

In particular his line "If you own an experimental aircraft, you could and still can pay someone to check you out in your own aircraft."

-Buzz

FlyingRon
07-12-2014, 11:27 AM
Ron, could you please clarify which regs don't support it. I am, in deed, sharing the current interpretation.
91.109(a).

I've never heard such an interpretation, but that doesn't mean that some whacko FAA guy didn't issue one.

Greg Bockelman
07-13-2014, 01:22 PM
91.109(a).

I've never heard such an interpretation, but that doesn't mean that some whacko FAA guy didn't issue one.

I think 91.319(e) is the one that applies.

1600vw
07-13-2014, 02:24 PM
ASA Sport Pilot PTS. page 9....
The aircraft utilized for Sport Pilot and Sport Pilot Flight Instructor Practical tests and proficiency checks must be a light-sport aircraft as defines in 14 CFR 1.

Single-Seat Aircraft Practical Test:
Applicants for a Sport Pilot Certificate may elect to take their test in a single-seat aircraft. The FAA established in 14CFR part 61. section 61.45{f} specific requirements to allow a practical test for a Sport Pilot Certificate Only.
This provision does not allow a practical test for a flight Instructor Certificate or Recreational Pilot Certificate or Higher to be conducted in a light-sport aircraft that has a single-pilot seat.

FlyingRon
07-13-2014, 03:02 PM
That just mimics the 100hr restriction that exists for certificated aircraft. It doesn't forbid instruction.

Dana
07-13-2014, 06:38 PM
Couple of things:

First, a newly built Kolb will not be an ELSA; it will be E-AB (but it's LSA compliant so a sport pilot or SP student may fly it. Second, there is no "LSA training"... SP training can only be conducted in a LSA compliant aircraft, while PP training may be conducted in a LSA or standard category aircraft.

If you own the aircraft, experimental or not, you can pay somebody to teach you to fly it, but you can't pay somebody to teach you in an experimental that you're paying for the use of as that's considered a commercial operation.

Side question: If you can receive training in a single seat aircraft, does that mean you can get a BFR in a single seater?

1600vw
07-14-2014, 08:06 AM
Couple of things:

First, a newly built Kolb will not be an ELSA; it will be E-AB (but it's LSA compliant so a sport pilot or SP student may fly it. Second, there is no "LSA training"... SP training can only be conducted in a LSA compliant aircraft, while PP training may be conducted in a LSA or standard category aircraft.

If you own the aircraft, experimental or not, you can pay somebody to teach you to fly it, but you can't pay somebody to teach you in an experimental that you're paying for the use of as that's considered a commercial operation.

Side question: If you can receive training in a single seat aircraft, does that mean you can get a BFR in a single seater?

The regs are written so one can train in a single seat. But NO CFI will do it. If anyone has trained in a single seat I would like to hear from them. So I would say no you can not train in a single seat for no CFI will train you, even though the regs say we can do this.

Tony