AERONCA/McDOWELL DRAWINGS

[EDGEFLY]

I am looking for drawings of parts of the McDOWELL STARTER to support my effort to install a system on my Chief. Please post or send me any you may have. (Starter only)

Thanks,

Dale

[EDGEFLY]

No drawing support showed up but, I have been able to pull together most of the parts needed for my installation.

[crackle]

Hi Dale
You are probably aware of the McDowell Starter Assembly drawing on the Aeronca Museum site www.aeroncamuseum.org ?
Christopher

[EDGEFLY]

Christopher,

Yes, I am aware of that and have over time now, obtained a number of both McDowell and Aeronca drawings covering the installation of a McDowell system for my Chief. My information, while covering some parts of the requirements for other models and especially, other engine configurations is centered on the Chief with a 65 hp Continental using a tapered shaft.
If anyone is seriously considering this project, they may contact me for specific information and I will help when possible.

Thank You for your help.

[Bob Dingley]

I have a dumb question. I used to own a 7AC Champ that had a lever hanging from under the panel. It was no longer connected to anything. No one knew for sure what it was for, but a few thought it was some kind of starter. Was that a McDowell Starter? How did it work?
Bob

[martymayes]

I have a dumb question. I used to own a 7AC Champ that had a lever hanging from under the panel. It was no longer connected to anything. No one knew for sure what it was for, but a few thought it was some kind of starter. Was that a McDowell Starter? How did it work?
Bob


Bob, you remember the deluxe Sears lawnmower where to start the engine, didn't pull on a recoiling rope. Instead you wound a crank handle on top of the engine around and around while it made a ratcheting sound (what you were doing was winding a spring) then once you had it sufficiently wound, you stowed the handle, which pushed a button to release the energy stored in the spring and it spun the engine over 2, 3, maybe 4 times if you wound it really tight? That is essentially how a McDowell starter works. Pretty neat adapting it to an airplane with no electrics.

[Bob Dingley]

​Thanks Marty,now I know. It could be that this system faded away because the crank handles were all lost over time.

[Greg Wilson]

I have a dumb question. I used to own a 7AC Champ that had a lever hanging from under the panel. It was no longer connected to anything. No one knew for sure what it was for, but a few thought it was some kind of starter. Was that a McDowell Starter? How did it work?
Bob

I know this response is quite late but here is my thought, with out seeing it. You likely have the lever for a hand "parking brake". The model 7 did not have the McDowell starter as an option they were in the mod.11 Chief. The McDowell starters that I have seen were operated with a lever anchored to the floor at the left side. I have the parking brake on my champ and most Aeronca owners, current and former, don't know what it is so I think they were not common. My system was installed in about 1950 after a "hand propping accident" according to the records. The McDowell starter worked as a recoil starter like a lawnmower engine. A ratchet was placed behind the prop with the cable running to the lever. The lever simply gave mechanical advantage rather than pulling the cable directly, like with a small engine.

[EDGEFLY]

I know this response is quite late but here is my thought, with out seeing it. You likely have the lever for a hand "parking brake". The model 7 did not have the McDowell starter as an option they were in the mod.11 Chief. The McDowell starters that I have seen were operated with a lever anchored to the floor at the left side. I have the parking brake on my champ and most Aeronca owners, current and former, don't know what it is so I think they were not common. My system was installed in about 1950 after a "hand propping accident" according to the records. The McDowell starter worked as a recoil starter like a lawnmower engine. A ratchet was placed behind the prop with the cable running to the lever. The lever simply gave mechanical advantage rather than pulling the cable directly, like with a small engine.


Gregs reply is essentially correct. The CRANK ( that is really the Aeronca part name) for the McDowell starter is floor mounted into weldments made to the original fuselage. It is positioned to the Pilots' left knee side and has a "REST" which is the return position after the ratchet gear is used to move the prop through one compression cycle. My Chief also has an under panel " Hand Brake" which is very similar to an emergency brake in an automobile. It works well when the Goodyear Brakes are properly adjusted. It is located under the panel center position.

I have now installed my McDowell and it works fine.All of the necessary drawings are available from many sources. However, the most important ones about the internal parts of the starter mechanism itself were all McDowell Co. Drawings and are mostly not generally available. I am still interested in any McDowell starter components drawings if anyone has them out there.

Dale

[Jeff Boatright]

...

I have now installed my McDowell and it works fine...

Dale

Man, this sounds like something that would be REALLY cool to publish in Sport Aviation or Kitplanes.

[Kyle Boatright]

Man, this sounds like something that would be REALLY cool to publish in Sport Aviation <snip>.

No way. It might steal space from the next TBM article...

[Jeff Boatright]

No way. It might steal space from the next TBM article...

What was I thinking?!

[Greg Wilson]

Glad to hear that the starter is in and working.
Also about that TBM article, I thought I was the only one that felt disenfranchised by the "new" EAA. :)

[Bob Dingley]

Lets keep it on starters.


I grew up with hand propping. (Did all of my PLC training in a J-3) But really! This is the 21st century. Ideas for all kinds of cheap, light weight methods to get a non-electric airplane going have been rolling around my head. The thought of my wife or grandkids hand propping leave me cold.


Air starters are light and effective. But you need to taxi to the FBO's air hose to top off the required on board tank. Or mount an on board compressor too. No good.


The old time-y "shot gun starter" looks good. Light, simple, dependable. You should first empty out the BBs If you buy your starting cartriges at the sporting goods store. Some one will eventualy forget this important step so the installation must be sufficiently robust. It should also include a clean out trap for over looked pellets. This idea appeals to me. But then came mental images of TSA hearing my plane crank and that would bring them pouring out of the terminal, crossing the runways and FBO ramp in military formation and taking me down. It would surely involve stun guns at certain NJ airports. Don't taze me bro.


I read of a T-craft owner who got an electric starter approved. He used a rechargeble, cordless drill motor. He installed a ring gear behind the prop and installed a cockpit control. I wish that I thought of it.


Then, there is this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecosb5mSDwo


Bob

[rwanttaja]

I read of a T-craft owner who got an electric starter approved. He used a rechargeble, cordless drill motor. He installed a ring gear behind the prop and installed a cockpit control. I wish that I thought of it.

The Hamp starter:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#More_on_the_Hamp_Starter_for_A65s

He did get an STC for it.

Ron Wanttaja

[EDGEFLY]

There are, of course, several successful or almost that good starter techniques applicable to older Aircraft. The Hamp drill motor thing is one of many. But the McDowell starter doesn't require a hand drill, a battery and has at least 75 years of use history in Aeroncas, Taylorcraft, Luscombes and maybe even in some coupes. If you are interested in seeing it in action, search for McDowell Starter on You Tube and you will find a very convincing demonstration of one in an Aeronca Chief by Colie Pitts.

Dale

[Kyle Boatright]

There are, of course, several successful or almost that good starter techniques applicable to older Aircraft. The Hamp drill motor thing is one of many. But the McDowell starter doesn't require a hand drill, a battery and has at least 75 years of use history in Aeroncas, Taylorcraft, Luscombes and maybe even in some coupes. If you are interested in seeing it in action, search for McDowell Starter on You Tube and you will find a very convincing demonstration of one in an Aeronca Chief by Colie Pitts.

Dale

Why do you think 99% of them were removed from service over the years? Ineffectiveness? No parts availability? My sense is that if they were a great solution, someone would have supported the product for the last 50+ years.

[EDGEFLY]

Why do you think 99% of them were removed from service over the years? Ineffectiveness? No parts availability? My sense is that if they were a great solution, someone would have supported the product for the last 50+ years.

Kyle,

Sorry to have offended you by suggesting a concept 75 years old is perhaps still useful. There are some answers to your questions but since you are obviously not interested, I won't bother you with them. I don't recall having said that McDowells are "a great solution", "were more or at least as effective" as alternative starter systems, "that there is immediate market parts support availabile" nor that they are specifically preferable to any other approach. They are a part of Vintage aircraft history and I am satisfied that my own experience has been "fine". I do hope your malaise is lessening and that modern medicine leads to a complete recovery.

For others viewing this thread, let us proceed in a civil manner.

Dale

[Greg Wilson]

Another other starter for small Continental engines was the "Hummer" from mechanical Products inc. it was approved by Cont. on the -6 and -9 engines, these engines had provision for a starter. The crankcase and accessory case are very different than on a -8 engine. To add a starter to a -8 my opinion is that the Hamp starter or an old McDowell would be the options. They both work by turning the prop. hub like a Lycoming, since the -8 engines have no available starter mount on the back. The Hummer was I think used on some pre-war Chiefs, they could also be had with an electric Eclipse starter. The -9 engines are very rare if you want a museum piece look for one if the goal is a flying aircraft then the old McDowell or new Hamp starters are the way to go for a self starter. Those that I have talked to,( I have never used one),say that a big problem with the McDowell was people "cranking" the engine with it to prime. It was meant only to turn the engine one compression to start it, the prop. was to be turned by hand for priming and to set on compression just like hand propping. It is more of a "remote" hand prop device than what is thought of now as a 'starter".

[L16 Pilot]

I've been searching for McDowell parts for my Super Chief project for a couple of years and checked out every old time airport in the area with no luck. I did find someone who had a complete (new??) in a box but the price was $3000 which is too rich for my blood. One person said they had the hub put couldn't find it. After looking at his hangar I could see why he couldn't locate it.

[Kyle Boatright]

Kyle,

Sorry to have offended you by suggesting a concept 75 years old is perhaps still useful. There are some answers to your questions but since you are obviously not interested, I won't bother you with them. I don't recall having said that McDowells are "a great solution", "were more or at least as effective" as alternative starter systems, "that there is immediate market parts support availabile" nor that they are specifically preferable to any other approach. They are a part of Vintage aircraft history and I am satisfied that my own experience has been "fine". I do hope your malaise is lessening and that modern medicine leads to a complete recovery.

For others viewing this thread, let us proceed in a civil manner.

Dale

My question was legitimate and civil, and if you'll re-read it, I think you'll see that it is a very straight forward question - not internet bait or flame war material.

I have enough A-65's to build a B-17 replica and almost enough Aeronca carcasses to go with them. I would love a decent starter on any of them, but there aren't any viable options.

So the question remains, why did the McDowell starters fall out of favor and why haven't they been supported in decades?

[Jeff Boatright]

The Fournier RF-4 had a similar set-up. My understanding is that they required a lot of tweaking to keep working, but did work well when in adjustment. Maybe the McDowell was just not a big enough leap forward from hand propping, and needed too much fiddling to keep it working at all?

[L16 Pilot]

Looking at the McDowell drawing it appears there are a lot of moving parts or at least parts subject to wear, cable stretch, etc. I suspect that the need for routine and regular maintenance was the reason the McD's were removed. Remember this was the time when a lot of planes had to be hand propped for starting. I know Bill Pancake has one on his Champ and he said it 'works great'.

[DBriers]

I've been searching for McDowell parts for my Super Chief project for a couple of years and checked out every old time airport in the area with no luck. I did find someone who had a complete (new??) in a box but the price was $3000 which is too rich for my blood. One person said they had the hub put couldn't find it. After looking at his hangar I could see why he couldn't locate it.

Did you ever end up finding a mcdowell starter? I'm looking for one for my aeronca chief.

[CraigCantwell]

No telling, as he hasn't logged back in since 2020.