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Bill Greenwood
01-01-2014, 11:32 AM
On the topic of Flying into Controlled airports, I wrote about having a sectional, that is a real chart.
Another pilot disagreed and pointed out that with an ipad one could have every Ifr chart and approach chart as well as vfr sectionals and wac on the tablet.

So, here are a few questions for him or others that promote the iPad over charts.

1. How long has it been since you flew outside of the area on your local WAC chart?
2. How many actual Ifr approaches did you make this year?
3. How long has it been since you made an actual Ifr approach outside your local state/area where you needed ifr charts from another part of the country?
4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 3x3 inches?
5. Is it easier to control the attitude of a plane when you can see the whole horizon out the window or easier when you are flying blind on just a 2 1/2 inch attitude indicator?
6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down? Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?
7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".
8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?


Now, I can see the advantages of having an iPad as a helpful addition, and I might even get one this year and maybe learn to use it, but I also see some disadvantages of it vs. real charts.
For a charter or airline pilot who actually needs charts from all over the country it might be good. For most of us costs may also be and issue. An ipad with a chart subscirption might run $500 and for that price one can get 50 sectionals.

rwanttaja
01-01-2014, 12:37 PM
Since I fly open cockpit, I sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. This would be uncomfortable, with an Ipad. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

zaitcev
01-01-2014, 01:37 PM
But I'm sure that a man who built an ejection seat for his FlyBaby is fully capable of rigging up something as simple as a craddle for iPad.

rwanttaja
01-01-2014, 02:12 PM
But I'm sure that a man who built an ejection seat for his FlyBaby is fully capable of rigging up something as simple as a cradle for iPad.
Don't have room, with the espresso machine and the microwave for the popcorn... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Jeff Boatright
01-01-2014, 02:27 PM
Since I fly open cockpit, I sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. This would be uncomfortable, with an Ipad. :-)

Ron Wanttaja


I, too, fly open cockpit, and I, too, sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. I've never been able to figure out how to read the chart while it's secure under my butt, though. :0

OTOH, I have no problem navigating with Foreflight on my iPhone, which I have clipped to the instrument panel...

rwanttaja
01-01-2014, 03:53 PM
I, too, fly open cockpit, and I, too, sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. I've never been able to figure out how to read the chart while it's secure under my butt, though. :0

New Ap, called "Smartbutt". :-)


OTOH, I have no problem navigating with Foreflight on my iPhone, which I have clipped to the instrument panel...

Paranoid as I am, I'd hate to have to try to secure an Ipad when I stopped somewhere, and it's a bit too bulky to carry around. However, in lieu of a gold watch for a 30-year-anniversary, my employer gave me a Galaxy Tab. About the same size as an Ipad mini. Been contemplating potential uses for it in the airplane, though I'm cautious about full-sunlight visibility. Don't think it's got a GPS in it, so it'd have to be passive navigation. But at least I could pull it out and tuck it into a pocket.

Space is often at a premium in a single-seater, though, and I'd probably have to rig up some sort of folding arm so I could push it away while getting in and out.

WWII Navy airplanes often had pull-out chart tables at the bottom (or even the middle) of the instrument panel.

3601

I've been tempted to try add something like this to the Fly Baby... it's a free run for ten inches or so under the panel, so I could put in a short pull-out table there. There's a potential for interfering with the stick, though (especially if something broke), and my knee room is tight enough already.

Have to hold out for Google Glass.

Current project is attempting to build a headset out of Romex cable and a gooseneck LED lamp. Was using an oil can, originally, but the flex spout was too short. Figure my total cost will be under hundred bucks, for a slimline in-the-ear headset that can be worn under a leather helmet without modification.

Ron "Cheap is my middle name" Wanttaja

danielfindling
01-01-2014, 04:20 PM
Since I fly open cockpit, I sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. This would be uncomfortable, with an Ipad. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Strap the Ipad to your leg and use your phone as a backup. No worries and no paper charts to fly away or ever purchase again. Foreflight and some other apps are truly game changers. Plus the Ipad has hundreds of other uses.

Daniel

Kyle Boatright
01-01-2014, 04:23 PM
With the correct options turned "on", I find WingX on my iPad Mini or iPhone (I really like the iPhone's readability) is almost as good as a chart. In a perfect world, I'd always have the appropriate (current) paper charts because I think my situational awareness is better when I use a chart.

pacerpilot
01-01-2014, 04:42 PM
Since I fly open cockpit, I sit on my chart to keep it from blowing away. This would be uncomfortable, with an Ipad. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Ron,

Maybe you need a "padded' Ipad!!! Oh my!!! I'm here all week, tip your waiters!

pacerpilot
01-01-2014, 04:46 PM
I'd actually like to have a tablet for nav. I'll keep my chart handy too. I just haven't been able to save up enough to buy one yet. A friend uses a Kindle with AirNav. It work great.

rwanttaja
01-01-2014, 06:03 PM
Strap the Ipad to your leg and use your phone as a backup. No worries and no paper charts to fly away or ever purchase again. Foreflight and some other apps are truly game changers. Plus the Ipad has hundreds of other uses.

Daniel, I'm sure you're right, but it's really not needed for the kind of flying I do. I generally don't go much further than 80 miles from home, and the topography of Western Washington not only gives me some good natural Navaids (a set of volcanos), but it tends to funnel me on easily-followed routes. I have a GPS (Garmin hiking unit, cost $100) but only use it two or three flights a year.

It's fun to consider using some of the more-modern electronics, but when I fly, I set the radio to 122.8, the altimeter to 58 feet, and the calendar to 1932.

Though if there's an App that'll project a gunsight reticule to the inside of the windshield, I'd be willing to reconsider. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Rod Schneider
01-01-2014, 06:15 PM
Bill, to answer question 4, an iPad screen is 9.7 inches diagonal unless it's the smaller iPad Mini. In Foreflight, the screen can be zoomed in or out as much as the user desires. I use the iPad for navigation and have not missed paper charts at all. As far as backups go, I have a Garmin 296 in the panel and an iPhone with Foreflight, so there are 3 independent sources, each with battery power available........

miemsed
01-01-2014, 06:15 PM
On the topic of Flying into Controlled airports, I wrote about having a sectional, that is a real chart.
Sam Buchanan disagreed and pointed out that with an ipad one could have every Ifr chart and approach chart as well as vfr sectionals and wac on the tablet.

So, here are a few questions for Sam and others that promote the iPad over charts.

1. How long has it been since you flew outside of the area on your local WAC chart?
2. How many actual Ifr approaches did you make this year?
3. How long has it been since you made an actual Ifr approach outside your local state/area where you needed ifr charts from another part of the country?
4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 2x3 inches?
5. Is it easier to control the attitude of a plane when you can see the whole horizon out the window or easier when you are flying blind on just a 2 1/2 inch attitude indicator?
6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down? Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?
7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".
8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?


Now, I can see the advantages of having an iPad as a helpful addition, and I might even get one this year and maybe learn to use it, but I also see some disadvantages of it vs. real charts.
For a charter or airline pilot who actually needs charts from all over the country it might be good. For most of us costs may also be and issue. An ipad with a chart subscirption might run $500 and for that price one can get 50 sectionals.

I will take a try at a few of your questions. I fly my 1973 piper PA-28-180 all over the east half of the county every year. My wife and I travel in it to visit family and for vacation. Last year we flew from MI, to PA, NY, Maine, NC and SC. Paper charts would have been a pain to keep updated. I have a foreflight subscription at $149 per year which gives me everything I need but only use it for preflight planning and as a backup in the aircraft. In the aircraft I have a Garmin 796 on a yoke mount that is used as primary for VFR/IFR charts and approach plates. Panel mount GTN 650 for IFR navigation. I made about 20 actual IFR approaches last year. Not counting practice ones. I have never had the yoke mounted GPS fail. I do not use the IPAD in flight, except once in a while to check for an intersection location ATC gives me before I decide if I want to accept it and enter it into the 650. So again the IPAD is my backup. As far as I know, it is completely legal to fly without paper charts. I have been flying for about 9 years and went paperless about 2 years ago when just a VFR pilot. I took my IFR check ride in November of 2012 and the examiner had no problem with me not having any paper charts. However while on the ILS approach for the check ride he indicated that my Garmin 796 had just failed and since I was using the 796 to display the approach plate, he wanted to know what I was going to do,for,an approach plate. Before every flight after filing my flight plan on foreflight, I leave foreflight open and just turn off the IPAD. I just picked up my iPad turned it on to foreflight and pulled up the geo referenced approach plate. He said fine and had no further questions about charts.

I know I did not answer all your questions but paperless is great for me. No problem with anyone who wants to carry paper just glad I do not have to anymore.

Jeff Boatright
01-01-2014, 06:50 PM
New Ap, called "Smartbutt". :-)


...
Space is often at a premium in a single-seater, though, and I'd probably have to rig up some sort of folding arm so I could push it away while getting in and out.

WWII Navy airplanes often had pull-out chart tables at the bottom (or even the middle) of the instrument panel.

3601

I've been tempted to try add something like this to the Fly Baby... it's a free run for ten inches or so under the panel, so I could put in a short pull-out table there. There's a potential for interfering with the stick, though (especially if something broke), and my knee room is tight enough already.
...
Ron "Cheap is my middle name" Wanttaja


Here's a Pietenpol version: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Ken%20Perkins/images/IMG_3917.JPG

Bill Greenwood
01-01-2014, 09:09 PM
Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.

Mike M
01-02-2014, 08:09 AM
... gave me a Galaxy Tab. a

Tab2 has gps, so worth searching your unit. Great free app for android is avare from the google play store. I use it in a tab2 10.1 inch screen. which is better, paper or plastic? Which do you prefer, phillips head or straight slot? Tool selection depends on the job. Your mileage may vary.

P.S. ladies and gentlemen, we are all grownups here. No need to guess, plead, b.s. each other about whether electronic charts are legal for pt91 ops. If you don't know, your last couple flight reviews were deficient. The FAA AC was issued in 2007. Go tell your CFI you were not listening, get it re-explained.

Jeff Boatright
01-02-2014, 08:39 AM
...

P.S. ladies and gentlemen, we are all grownups here...


Assumes facts not in evidence! After all, I'm on this forum and my wife was just reminding me this morning as to how my child-like qualities are not appreciated when it comes to chores, yearly planning, TV program choices, etc., etc.

rleffler
01-02-2014, 09:15 AM
Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.


I'm similiar to Miemsed. Moving maps and approach plates are viewable on any one of the three EFIS on my panel in my RV-10. These are both geo-referenced so there is an aircraft icon indicating my current position on them. The fourth EFIS doesn't have this capability, it's purely just a back-up fail safe. I'm finding flying with a modern EFIS much easier than a standard six pack. The information is more consolidated and minimizes head and eye movement, allowing me to stay focused better.

I also have an iPad in the cockpit with WingX on it that has sectionals, ifr charts, and approach plates on it as well. They are also on my iPhone, but I do admit that's a little harder to read. Toss in a GTN650 and a multi-axis autopilot and the workload is cut down even further. If I get to a point where I have to switch to the iPad to reference while flying, I've had multiple severe system failures (i.e. three dead EFIS and a dead GTN650). Fortunately, the odds of that happening is extremely small.

The current model of my EFIS can also display both sectionals and IFR charts, but timing is everything and I have the previous hardware version in my RV.

I am just coming out of Phase 1, so now it's time to get my IPC knocked out that lapsed while building.

MickYoumans
01-02-2014, 11:04 AM
I don't know of any portable devices that are approved for primary IFR navigation, but the iPad running WingX or Foreflight is very easy to use and is very nice for backup navigation and is a great EFB for charts and plates. With that disclaimer said, I'll try to address some of your questions;


4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 3x3 inches?
The iPad screen is 9.7" diagonally. The neat thing with the iPad is you can take you finger and scroll around the screen to see any portion of a sectional. In WingX all of the sectionals are 'stitched' together so that you go seamlessly from one sectional to another. With paper you would have to use multiple sectionals to fly across the country. With WingX you just seamlessly continue right on to the next sectional. The same applies for IFR charts too. The iPad allows you to pinch zoom in and out on your sectional to see as little or as much detail as you want on your screen. WingX also has overlays for terrain, TFR's, obstacles, airspaces, airways, jetways, fixes, runways and ADS-B radar that you can turn on and off as desired to really make those pop out on your map. You can also view your map as "North Up" or "Track Up". With my WingX subscription, my charts are always up to date and I don't have to worry about whether I will have the needed maps and charts for a trip, they are all already there.


6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down?
I think some of the early iPad 1's could overheat and shutoff, but I have not heard of anyone complaining of this with the iPad 2 or newer versions. I live in Georgia where the summer temperatures get pretty hot and I have not had this problem with my iPad 2 mounted on a RAM yoke mount. I suppose you could have a battery or some other type failure with the iPad, but I have been flying with mine over four years now with no issues. You can also plug your iPad up to the accessory power port in your plane for external battery power. I also have WingX on my iPhone as a backup that I can pull out and use if my iPad died for some reason.


Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?
No, but on the flip side I've never seen a real chart show me my geo-referenced position on it either. One of the neat features in WingX is the split screen. I can set up one half of the screen to display my sectional and the other half to show my GPS approach plate. I usually just leave it full screen on the sectional when I'm out away from my destination airport, then click the "Screen" button to go split screen with the approach plate when I get near my destination. I can also easily turn off the sectional and have only the approach plate displayed full screen. You can zoom in and out on the approach plates just like you can on a sectional too. The approach plate also shows my geo-referenced position on the plate. In addition I program the approach waypoints into my 'route' so that WingX is displaying the exact distance to my next waypoint and exact distance to my destination at the top of my screen. The airport diagrams are also georeferenced so you know exactly where you are on the ground too.


7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".
As far as I know it is legal to fly with the charts in a EFB without paper copies. The charts in WingX are copies of the 'real' charts and they are always current (if you do the database updates when WingX flags you to do so). The database updates are included in the annual subscription and are extremely easy to do on the iPad over a WiFi connection. The cool thing with the WingX subscription you have ALL of the VFR Sectionals, IFR Enroutes, Approach Plates and Airport Diagrams for the US. I could not begin to have all of this on paper. Not to mention what a pain it would be to use on paper.


8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?
Yes, I would recommend having a EFB backup. The neat thing about WingX is that I can run a second copy on an iPhone or another iPad (which I do) and that will suffice as sufficient backup. I do keep a sectional for my local area and an airport directory in my plane. I haven't used them in four years, but they are there if needed. Otherwise I have strictly been flying from my iPad.


An ipad with a chart subscirption might run $500
WingX is $100 per year or $200 for three years ($67 per year) with all maps and charts. If you want your approach charts to show your geo-referenced position that is $75 extra and Synthetic Vision is also $100 extra. For $67 a year for the three year deal, it is hard for me to justify buying the paper documents considering all of the other neat things WingX does for me.


WingX also has so many neat features for flight planning and to file / close flight plans electronically. It also has all of the A/FD and AOPA information for each airport. WingX also has a Synthetic Vision option that is pretty neat too. There are just too many neat little features and options in the program to talk about them here.

Even though I have been referrencing WingX since it is what I use, I know ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot have many of the same features too. If anybody is considering getting an iPad and one of these programs, I would suggest that you download the free 30 day trial version and put them all through the paces before deciding on one. Learn the programs on the ground but put them through the paces in the air before deciding. What seems great flying in the La-Z-Boy in the den might not be so easy to read and navigate around when bouncing in an airplane.

Mike M
01-02-2014, 11:40 AM
...As far as I know it is legal to fly with the charts in a EFB without paper copies...

geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/73540

MickYoumans
01-02-2014, 12:10 PM
geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/73540
I knew it was legal, but also knew there were conditions and limitations. I was just making a general statement in my post above. Thanks for posting the link. Item 6 page 3 clearly defines what constitutes a legal EFB.

zaitcev
01-02-2014, 12:33 PM
Have to hold out for Google Glass.

I know an early adopter who's became somewhat disillusioned. Apparently the disconnected operation is plain impossible (with the existing software), and the battery life sucks. If you can rig something like Glass using onboard power and autonomous computing, it may be interesting. BTW, I fly in D&C K10 helmet, which may serve as a base...

Sam Buchanan
01-02-2014, 12:35 PM
geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/73540

Let's just cut to the chase--paragraph 7 of the above document:

"7. GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS.

The in-flight use of EFB systems to depict images in lieu of paper reference material is the decision of the aircraft
operator and the pilot-in-command. Any Type A or Type B EFB application, as defined in AC 120-76A, may be
substituted for the paper equivalent. It is suggested that a secondary or backup source of aeronautical information
or paper reference material necessary for the flight be available to the pilot in the aircraft. The
secondary or backup information may be either traditional paper-based material or displayed
electronically by other means. Class 1 and Class 2 EFB can be used during all phases of flight
operations in lieu of paper reference material when the information displayed meets the following criteria........"

Suffice it to say iPads and similar tablets, aviation GPS devices that contain an up-to-date aeronautical database for the area encompassed by the flight, and EFIS devices that contain the same meet the requirements of this circular.....and have since 2007. It is not necessary to carry any paper products per regulation if devices described above are onboard the aircraft and available to the pilot in command.

It is the decision of the pilot as to whether or not he/she is proficient with operating these devices in the flight environment.

Bob Dingley
01-02-2014, 04:14 PM
If you plan on flying near a TFR, you may want a GPS, tablet or EFB on board. One that records your track. I'm just saying that some day you may need more than just your word and reputation.


I like paper charts too. I'm not either/or.The devil is in the details. A while back I was following traffic into a Class D airport. I made my calls, but I never heard the other guy. I switched my #2 com to the old CTAF on a hunch. There he was. He called downwind, base and final like a pro. Meanwhile, I heard the the tower on my #1 make repeated calls to reply, rock his wings or do something. I transmitted on #2 com " Aircraft short final for 12, talk to the tower on (freq)" .


When he established contact, he asked "When did you put in a tower here?" The controller replied "It was here when I was assigned eight years ago." Fortunatly there were no conflicts so no action taken.


Bob

miemsed
01-02-2014, 05:30 PM
Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.

Well we were level at 2500 feet and had not yet intercepted the glideslope so it really was no big deal. I have an iPad 3 with a smart case. I leave foreflight open after filing my flight plan and just close the cover which turns off the iPad. When I open up the cover foreflight is open and there is no warm up time. Also I had already briefed the approach and jotted down the minimums and other info on my kneeboard so I really could have flown the approach at that point but the examiner wanted to see if I had access to an approach plate if the Garmin 796 failed. I did and he accepted it. I fully brief an approach and jot down a few things like minimums, initial steps for the missed onto a piece of paper on my knee board. So if I had a 796 failure I really could just finish the approach. If for some reason I could not and did not feel I could access the iPad backup, I would just go missed and pull up the plate on the iPad and go again.

I am not trying to convince anyone else to go paperless. It is not for everyone. For me, I love being able to wake up on a sat or sun morning and decide let's fly to SC today. I know I have all the charts I need. When I was using paper I am sure I would find a problem with not having every chart I needed or realizing the charts I had were expired. If I realized it with the iPad or GPS, I would just have to spend 15 mins to 30 mins downloading the charts. If I were depending on paper charts, I would not be able to get them. Even if the FBO at my airport was open, they do not carry charts.

I really do love the paperless solution. For VFR or IFR low charts the 796 and iPad for that matter allow you to zoom in and out to get great detail on a chart which for me is far superior to folding and unfolding a chart in flight.

Again I am not saying paperless is for everyone but I do believe a great deal of pilots have gone paperless. I could be wrong but I do not believe I am blazing any trails here as I sense that many pilots went paperless long before I did.

Along with the panel mount GTN 650 I have an STEC 30 auto pilot with a GPSS module. That does help to reduce work load somewhat but it really is not hard to turn on an iPad to use as a back up for charts

Happy flying with paper or without.

Bill Greenwood
01-02-2014, 05:38 PM
You guys are really going to love the new method going into effect at Airventure/Oshkosh this year.

The porta potties will be divided into two types:
1.. For the super up to date, high tech, modern types, one set of potties will be paperless.
2. For old fashioned guys like me, the other half of the potties will have the same paper as before.

P S Be sure and tell your ladies to use the high tech ones with you, they are going to love it, especially if you have kids also.

rwanttaja
01-02-2014, 08:15 PM
You guys are really going to love the new method going into effect at Airventure/Oshkosh this year.

The porta potties will be divided into two types:
1.. For the super up tp date, high tech, modern types, one set of potties will be paperless.
2. For old fashioned guys like me, the other half of the potties will have paper as before.
Well, you guys aren't too far apart....Miemsed and the others seem to feel that hard-copy charts are best suited for #2 (At least in your numbering scheme).

That material *is* a bit slick, though....Charmin it ain't.

Ron Wanttaja

Mike M
01-03-2014, 06:29 AM
I knew it was legal, but also knew there were conditions and limitations. I was just making a general statement in my post above. Thanks for posting the link. Item 6 page 3 clearly defines what constitutes a legal EFB.

Mick, I re-read my post that had copied part of yours and publicly apologize for the smart-aleck tone.

MickYoumans
01-03-2014, 09:43 AM
Mick, I re-read my post that had copied part of yours and publicly apologize for the smart-aleck tone.
No problem. Don't worry about it. I'm glad you posted the link that would clarify the EFB requirements for everyone. To be honest, while I was typing my post, I knew there were certain limitations involved (that's why my original comment had a certain vagueness to it) but I was too lazy to stop and go look up the details. I appreciate you providing the link so we could all access it.

Scoot25
01-07-2014, 03:00 PM
Hi everyone, I noticed that this thread seemed to get a little off topic with the legality aspect of using tablets in place of physical charts. Now that we clearly know its legal, does anybody use one to actually replace your charts? Also I think there is some misunderstanding with the original question about batteries 'failing.' Failing and dieing are two different things. While lit-ion have been know to 'fail' (not to ever work again) it is rare. While your battery will generally die within 4 or so hours of heavy use. So in other words do you have auxiliary power for your pad? Thanks

Mike M
01-07-2014, 04:23 PM
Hi everyone, I noticed that this thread seemed to get a little off topic with the legality aspect of using tablets in place of physical charts. Now that we clearly know its legal, does anybody use one to actually replace your charts? Also I think there is some misunderstanding with the original question about batteries 'failing.' Failing and dieing are two different things. While lit-ion have been know to 'fail' (not to ever work again) it is rare. While your battery will generally die within 4 or so hours of heavy use. So in other words do you have auxiliary power for your pad? Thanks

Replace paper? Yes. Aux power? Yes.

MickYoumans
01-07-2014, 04:40 PM
bdoes anybody use one to actually replace your charts? do you have auxiliary power for your pad? Thanks
Yes, I use WingX to replace all of the paper in my cockpit except for a small notebook that I use to jot down notes. I do have one current paper sectional of my home area and an out of date airport directory in my glove box. I haven't used either in years. I do have a USB power port I can hook my iPad and iLevil up to if needed. So far I have not needed that either, but I can potentially see needing it for longer than normal cross countries. (The bulk of my flights are one to two hours) I also keep a 12v to 120AC inverter in my glove box but have not used it since I transitioned from a NetBook PC to an iPad back in 2010.

Gil
01-09-2014, 04:46 PM
does anybody use one to actually replace your charts?

Yes, for the last two years. No paper. Foreflight and Avare as backup.

Jim Hardin
01-10-2014, 05:32 AM
In the end it really comes down to this:

Use what you are comfortable with!

I became interested it this as it evolved from panel mounted to portables.
I also look at this as a progression and a completed shift in the way we fly and teach aviation…

I use both an iFlyGPS (720) as well as their new iPad App (Android coming) and do not have any paper anything in my bag!

I taxi out with every Sectional – WAC – TAC – Low Enroute – Approach – Airport Diagram or Photo – TFR’s - Airport/Facility Directory - METAR – METAF – Winds Aloft for the entire US, Alaska & Hawaii.
I omitted the other Pacific Islands and Possessions as I don’t have the need.

All of this would stress the rotator cuff of any pilot and create a serious challenge to stow it on board. Yet it fits nicely on my kneeboard or many temporary or even permanent mounting options…

I don’t even carry an E6B anymore as there is No Need for ETA calculations at all, when all I have to do is touch a point on the screen and it that info is presented…

But I DO have an E6B APP on my phone and iPad as my systems do not calculate estimated ground speed which you do need for FUEL calculations!!! (it estimates No Wind fuel burns for leg & trip)

I toiled with all of the “problems” that most do when considering moving to the electronic versions and as I played and learned more about HOW to use them I found all of these “problems” were only in the mind of the beholder…

At least with this system I will never have to fly pilotage using a Road Map when no Sectional was available as I have in the past!

KevinPHD
01-10-2014, 05:44 AM
Folding paper takes too much time while glancing at glass especially driven by a GPS is safer. But there is one huge mistake in this Paper VS Glass debate. It says IPADS! Turns out, Windows has had tab letPC's for over 15 years along with numerous folks supplying charting and moving map software for PC's. Then most of us doing that also had Android versions LONG berfore the idiots at the AOPA and the FAA declared and I quaote, "The iPad is a new and revolutionary device for aviation!".
So pilot went out and spenct $700 for an iPad while you could get the same glass in a TabletPC for $200. In fact, now you can have sectionals, wacs, plates, on your cell phone for 1/10th the cost of an iPad. Don't get me wrong, the iPad is good, just too expensive.

Sam Buchanan
01-10-2014, 08:24 AM
I toiled with all of the “problems” that most do when considering moving to the electronic versions and as I played and learned more about HOW to use them I found all of these “problems” were only in the mind of the beholder…

And that, my friends, is probably the most succinct statement thus far in this discussion.

Pat1White
01-10-2014, 09:27 AM
We switched to ipad + foreflight over two years ago for our corporate flying. With the current addition of the Stratus II gps/adsb in, it is even better. For less than $2,000 total investment we have complete chart coverage of the USA, gps positioning for taxi charts and maps, and no time wasted updating 16 Jepp binders of charts every two weeks.

I see NO downside to replacing 30 pounds of paper charts with two ipads!

Pat

Anymouse
01-10-2014, 10:00 AM
The main reason I got an iPad was for aviation use. As others have mentioned, all my charts are on there. In addition, I also have the FARs (all of 'em), the AIM, several pertinent ACs, POH for each aircraft I fly, and the user manuals for every piece of avionics equipment that are in those aircraft. Oh yeah, my logbook is on there as well.

Bob Dingley
01-11-2014, 08:11 PM
An observation on how it was in the last century.


The base Ops at Mcguire AFB at times was jam packed with a dozen or more Second lieutenants planning and filing flights. They were C-141 navigators heading out to various continents and each had a huge canvas bag filled with pubs & charts. I estimate At least 65-70 lbs. You know the big bags labeled "Kit bag, Aviators." A tablet for each navigator would have replaced almost a half ton of paper. (12 young LTs X 70 lbs = 840 lbs)



Bob

MickYoumans
01-11-2014, 10:07 PM
there is one huge mistake in this Paper VS Glass debate. It says IPADS! Turns out, Windows has had tab letPC's for over 15 years along with numerous folks supplying charting and moving map software for PC's. Then most of us doing that also had Android versions LONG berfore the idiots at the AOPA and the FAA declared and I quaote, "The iPad is a new and revolutionary device for aviation!".
So pilot went out and spenct $700 for an iPad while you could get the same glass in a TabletPC for $200. Don't get me wrong, the iPad is good, just too expensive.
While I can fully agree with you that PCs led the way, they certainly did not revolutionize the cockpit. I first started with PC Avionics MountainScope running on my laptop and eventually purchased a NetBook to run it on because the laptop was simply too large for the cockpit. While MountainScope is a great program with awesome terrain and synthetic vision graphics, it is much more difficult to use than WingX running on an iPad. I never could find a really good place for the NetBook nor a good way to mount it in my cockpit, not to mention it was a pain to manipulate in the air since the NetBook did not have touch screen. My wife is not a technical type person. I tried so hard to teach her to use a PC but she really struggled with navigating around using a mouse or touch pad. I spent 5 to 10 minutes showing her how to navigate on an iPad and use the pinch to zoom gestures and she was off to the races. After that she was asking for an iPad for Christmas, prior to that she could care less about computers. While the NetBook and iPad were close size wise, half of the NetBook was keyboard while the iPad is all screen. The iPad has essentially no bootup time where as the NetBook was slow to boot. Battery life was pretty short on the NetBook and would require me to plug it up to a power port in the plane, whereas I never have to do that with my iPad. Laptops and NetBooks did not have built in GPS receivers like the iPads do. While you can couple an external GPS to the NetBook or PC, on the NetBook/PC you had to manually create the bluetooth connection each time. The combination of awesome easy to use apps like WingX and ForeFlight running on a platform with a good size touch screen, built in GPS and long battery life, coupled with a good variety of mounts like the RAM yoke mount where they would actually fit in the cockpit pretty nice, really did revolutionize the cockpit. Those $200 PCs you mentioned do not have touch screen and have the other drawbacks I have already mentioned. At the time the iPad came out, the only touch tablet PCs ran about double the cost of the iPad. My $300 NetBook coupled with the $500 MountainScope program is roughly the same cost as my iPad/WingX combination. The AOPA/FAA comment is right on the money. There has never been another device so widely accepted and used by pilots as the iPad. It really has revolutionized the cockpit.

Joe LaMantia
01-29-2014, 09:26 AM
I've been surfing various blogs on OSH 365 today and tripped over this one, which is yet another attempted "food fight" started by Bill. Bill, keep up the good work, this is a fun topic! Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. Since it's legal to use electronic devices in place of paper, and it's a lot easier, then we can expect that it will replace paper over time. Given the wide variety of aviators and aircraft along with a wide variety of missions it's fairly clear that some can and do operate using only paper on-board and mostly looking out the window. I'll bet Ron hasn't taken that chart out from under his butt in flight for years. He doesn't need an IPad, he barely needs a com radio! He's flying for fun!!! I bought a "mini" IPad last year and have been using Wings X, I started out just using the moving map page and comparing it to what I saw out the window. You don't have to keep your eyes glued to the screen to hold a heading, you can find a spot out in front of the windshield to fly toward and then just check the moving map like you would a heading indicator or compass...it's not a big distraction. Most of my flying is like Ron's and I have lakes, towns, railroad tracks, and such that aren't going to disappear if the battery goes dead. The IPad battery has a 10hr charge and the IPad has a small "battery %" window in the upper left corner of the screen so you know how much time you've got b/4 you go flying. I have slowly gained confidence in the device and my ability to use it, I have taken it on several X-country flights and it really improves my situational awareness. I tend to stay ahead of the airplane better, and it allows me to look out the window for the shear pleasure of it. I did experience a "black screen" last July while parked on a ramp in Indiana with temps in the 90's. I put the IPad in the FBO's refrigerator for about 10 minutes and it came back to life b/4 I took-off. It was a good lesson, now I take it with me when I leave the plane, end of problem. I tend to agree with Jim Hardin that the problems you state are more in the mind then real. Bill, if your interested check-out Austin Meyers "Xavion" video just Google "Xavion" and see where this stuff is going!!

Joe
:cool:

Sam Buchanan
01-29-2014, 01:47 PM
I've been surfing various blogs on OSH 365 today and tripped over this one, which is yet another attempted "food fight" started by Bill. Bill, keep up the good work, this is a fun topic!

I think this one turned out to be a lot more one-sided than Bill anticipated. :)

The times, they [are] have changed.

Robert Dingus
03-28-2014, 07:25 AM
This was a topic i have been tossing around in my head a lot lately, as i am building my first Ultralight, its almost done. i too am looking at the electronics for navigation, but i want to learn the proper way for pilotage, using the paper maps, and flight planning. i went looking for the simple 1:500,000 plotter. you know the ones going for 7.00 to 20.00 in the shops. i wanted one in PDf form to print out and use overhead projector film to make my own, cheap and effective. i did not find one, so i am in the process of drawing up one from scratch. using a CAD program its accurate and i can scale it to any map i want to use it on. i can also add features to it to make charting easier.

but after i learn the proper way to navigate then integrate the electronic version into my flying, want to do both pleasure and cross country flying.
if you have an android phone, you can us AVARE it is a free sectional map with all of the bells and whistles, i have it on an old back up phone, to play with, and confrim my paper map reading skills.

also dead batteris do tend to be wet blankett.

Robert

tspear
03-28-2014, 01:23 PM
Bill,

First it should be listed as paper versus iPad. I have all the charts on the iPad, and my Andriod Tablet and my Phone....

1. How long has it been since you flew outside of the area on your local WAC chart?

Two weeks ago. I have another flight in two weeks which will go outside the local WAC again. In fact I am going to need three WAC charts on the next trip.

2. How many actual Ifr approaches did you make this year?

I have made about thirty approaches in IMC over the past twelve months. :p

3. How long has it been since you made an actual Ifr approach outside your local state/area where you needed ifr charts from another part of the country?

Two weeks ago. Based on headed to NH coast line in a couple weeks, likely will need them again.

4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 3x3 inches?

The sectional use useless in the cockpit at 2x3 feet. You have to fold it down so you can fly the plane. I found when I used them I folded the sectional down to roughly the size of a standard piece of paper. My tablets are 10in, almost the size of regular paper. My phone is roughly 3x4 (backup device)....

5. Is it easier to control the attitude of a plane when you can see the whole horizon out the window or easier when you are flying blind on just a 2 1/2 inch attitude indicator?

Depends. In clouds, I like the 3in tall AI on my Aspen. In addition, if I am flying on an IFR plan where you need to stay within a 100ft, at faster speeds, e.g. 200 KIAS in my Aerostar the AI is actually easier to maintain altitude with. Roughly a 1/2 degree of change produces a climb rate of 500FPM.
So the real answer is. It depends. When I flew an SR20, it was very easy to maintain within 100ft at the much slower speeds.

6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down? Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?

Never had batteries fail on paper, but I have had them rip, tear and that is even worse. I have a charger in my plane for the iPad, easy to plug in. I also have a backup tablet and phone. I can say this though, applying scotch tape to a paper sectional to put it back together is a lot harder then plugging in a table.
Lastly, I like to fly at night. I have had batteries fail a flashlight in a flight, and the dome light bulb burned out. Thank goodness for the table to display the charts :D

7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".

Yes. I have more information on my tablets then you will ever have with your paper. And I can get to it much faster.

8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?

You use your backup device, go to an alternate that is VMC, and the my DE did take away my tablet on the IFR checkride and on my multi IR checkride. In fact, she took away the MFD with the charts, the tablet and my phone. At that point I declared a "mock" emergency and went for radar vectors to land.
Now with you vaunted paper binder, the DE spills coffee on the binder. Since you likely have the Jeppessen binder, the paper is so thin to save weight and space it will come aprt. How do you land? What do you do?

FYI, depending on the software package. IFR and Sectionals for the whole USA run between $50-100 bucks a year on tablets. This is a lot cheaper then the paper subscription I had before. Another benefit to the tablet solution, once a month open the application and click download. Done, all updated. Compare that to the paper solution of adding/removing individual pages each month. What a PITA that was.

Tim