Sorta-Newbie Has UL Questions

[Olympus]

I guess I should start by saying that about 7 or 8 years ago, I got hooked on aviation and starting taking lessons for my private pilot. I got up to about 25 hours and got married, moved away, bought a house, and life went on without me completing my license although I never lost the love. Now that I'm older and married, I don't think I could afford to get my license back, buy a used 172, pay hangar fees, and annuals each year.

I've been kicking around the idea of ULs as a way to get back up in the air without as much cost. What's worse is that a friend bought a GT500 and keeps it at his house. He uses his gravel road as an airstrip and it's incredibly handy. This has spurred my interest in ULs.

I have a 6 acre piece of property with about a 150 yard flat and wide strip that I believe would be great for a UL. I have a large shop that I could use as my own hangar. I live outside of any city limits and there is no regulated airspace near me. I think I might be in a good position to buy a UL. My doubts are that I'll wish I had more range than a 5gal fuel tank can provide. I'm not a speed demon, but cruising at 55 to 60 into a headwind may get old quick. And my buddy says I'll want an engine bigger, at least 40hp.

The LSA route sounds even better, but might be prohibited based on my possible "short field" grass strip and more expensive due to needing a sport license and having to do annuals on the plane. Not to mention the LSAs are a lot higher than the ULs. I'm looking at a total budget of absolutely no more than $13k total. So that's either $13k for a UL or $13k for a sport license and whatever is left for a LSA.

I really need some advice from some seasoned vets. Is this a viable option or is it still a pipedream?

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Olympus,
Here is part of the Part 103 regulations and explanations.
http://www.eaa.org/ultralights/ac103-7.pdf
and spending time on the eaa.org/ultralights section is time well spent. Understanding the limits/privileges is important. And the more or less reason that Light sport aircraft and the sport pilot certificate came into existence.
The GT-500 is not an Ultralight under part 103 but might have been transitioned to an ELSA under light sport's early days. If it doesn't have an N number on the tail it is being operated outside the category. (too many seats, too heavy,... etc) The -500 falls in the LSA and needs to be operated by a SP.
SP training is well defined - http://www.sportpilot.org/ and in the real world will cost around $2500 to $3500 depending on your speed of assimilation the older the longer it takes. add another $500 for books and check ride.
The true UL and light(er) LSA type aircraft requires dedication to energy management - WAY beyond an average certificated aircraft and it is recommended to get some training time in something similar to what you may be purchasing.
BTW- 450 feet is a very small strip. no margin for errors there.

[Olympus]

I'm familiar with the regulations regarding UL and LSA. I was not considering a GT500. Just saying that my friend had one and it has gotten me interested. He has offered to let me use it for training if necessary.

I was just mainly curious if I have enough space to land and take off. Worst case scenario, I have a longer stretch of blacktop road that is probably 300 yards that I could use also. It parallels my grass strip.

Also curious to know if I should stick with looking at ULs of if I should just move up to the LSA and sport license.

[1600vw]

Move to Alaska. Those folks do not believe in regulations they fly what they want when they won't. Crazy thing, the FAA knows it and lets it happen. But live down here in the Lower 48 and you better play by the rules.

Just say-in....

[Olympus]

I'm not talking about breaking any rules.

Option 1 is strictly legal 103 ultralight if it's possible to use my current location for a strip and if it can be done in under $13K.

Option 2 is strictly legal LSA aircraft and get my sport license. Again, if it's possible to use my current location for a strip and if both can be done for under $13k.

If there's no way to make my current location work for a strip, then I think I'll have to keep dreaming because I can't afford the plane, plus hangar rental, plus time and fuel driving to and from the nearest airport.

[wakataka]

You're going to need a pretty serious STOL airplane to get in and out of a 450 foot strip safely. I don't think there are many 2-place LSA aircraft that could do it. The Carbon Cub comes to mind, but that is about 10x your stated budget.

There are a few ultralights that you might consider. A B1-RD with a 30+ hp engine of some sort would be a good choice for a short strip. It's long out of production but there are still used ones avaiable from time to time. It's one of the better STOL ultralights ever made, but like most STOL aircraft, the cruise speed is limited.

A Kolb Firefly with a 447 would probably get the job done also, but you would need to learn to fly it well before you brought it back to a strip that short. The Kolb is a lot faster than the B1-RD, but it can fall out from under you if you let it get too slow on landing. Getting it into a short strip takes some finesse. But the wings fold very easily and you could keep it in a trailer or shipping container and avoid the cost of a hangar.

The single surface Quicksilver Sport might also be a good choice.

But flying out of a 450 foot strip is going to raise the pucker factor considerably in almost any airplane. It's doable with an experienced pilot in the right airplane, but you have very little margin for error or equipment failure. Are there any obstacles at the ends? Is it alighned with the prevailing wind?

[Olympus]

After looking closer and measuring, I don't think my grass strip will work. But I have a nice flat section of blacktop that parallels the grass and it's about 1000ft with no obstacles or obstructions. It runs 36/18 so that's close to our local winds.

[billmaxmcw]

Ultralight is the way to go for you. I just sold my 2005 Quicksilver Sprint for $5,000; it would operate nicely out of your place. The main obstacle is learning how to fly it; check with Rainbow Aviation in Corning.

[wakataka]

Ultralight is the way to go for you. I just sold my 2005 Quicksilver Sprint for $5,000; it would operate nicely out of your place. The main obstacle is learning how to fly it; check with Rainbow Aviation in Corning.

That's right, it's the Sprint that has the single surface and the low stall speed, not the Sport like I said in my previous post. A Sprint with a 447 can get in and out of some pretty tight places.

I fly out of Corning and unfortunately Rainbow Aviation no longer has their 2-place Quicksilver available for training. After the FAA killed the 2-place ultralight training exemption, the trainer had to be classified as an ELSA and could only be used for training under a special approval called a Letter of Deviation. Brain Carpenter said it was taking months to get the Letter of Deviation approved every year. It's very difficult now to find anyone providing training in anything that flies like an ultralight. FAA needs to come up some more reasonable way to allow ultralight type ELSA airplanes to be used for training. The current system requires the LODA be renewed each year and I understand it can take up to 6 months to process a renewal. So how can anyone make a living (or even break even) doing training with their aircraft grounded up to half the year? It's unworkable and it's driving people back to the bad old days of ground based instruction and people basically teaching themselves to fly in the air.

If the asphalt you are referring to is a county road, you may be heading for trouble there. You can't operate airplanes or ultralights legally on public roads.

Martin B.

[Mike M]

Did you tell us what state you're in, Olympus? If so, sorry, I missed it. Because the answer to operating aircraft on roads varies by state. I am NO ultralight guru, but have operated from roads a bunch - yes, legally, not running drugs or anything. Conversely, it can be tough to operate from some public airports. Do not rely on forum answers exclusively. Check state and county laws and ordinances.

Sounds like fun!

[1600vw]

That's right, it's the Sprint that has the single surface and the low stall speed, not the Sport like I said in my previous post. A Sprint with a 447 can get in and out of some pretty tight places.

I fly out of Corning and unfortunately Rainbow Aviation no longer has their 2-place Quicksilver available for training. After the FAA killed the 2-place ultralight training exemption, the trainer had to be classified as an ELSA and could only be used for training under a special approval called a Letter of Deviation. Brain Carpenter said it was taking months to get the Letter of Deviation approved every year. It's very difficult now to find anyone providing training in anything that flies like an ultralight. FAA needs to come up some more reasonable way to allow ultralight type ELSA airplanes to be used for training. The current system requires the LODA be renewed each year and I understand it can take up to 6 months to process a renewal. So how can anyone make a living (or even break even) doing training with their aircraft grounded up to half the year? It's unworkable and it's driving people back to the bad old days of ground based instruction and people basically teaching themselves to fly in the air.

If the asphalt you are referring to is a county road, you may be heading for trouble there. You can't operate airplanes or ultralights legally on public roads.

Martin B.

I talked with a man about a month ago and went and looked at his airplane, legal Eagle. As we stand there looking at his bent up airplane he explains.....

Quote " I flew weight shift back in the 80's then had to stop for family and work got in the way. Now all this is over or grown and out of the house. So I went and got me this thing. I tried to find some instructions but no one does this anymore. So I thought I would taxi her up and down the runway and teach myself. Then she went air born before I was ready. she got sideways and this is what happened. I had to go get my car and drag her back to the hangar."

It gets worse...

Quote " I have never done any work on tube anything but went and purchased me this nice new Oxygen welding kit and am going to repair this airplane. I thought I would work on some scrap pieces and learn how to use this then repair my airplane"

I tried with all my power to make this man understand that he could not do this. It did not work. I talked with him a couple days ago and he told me he was selling the airplane. I hope the person whom purchases this airplane looks really close at this airplane.

People need help and the FAA taking training away from this group is causing a lot of problems. I have more stories like this, and this is sad for I have only been part of this thing we call aviation for a very short time, under 4 years. I should have no stories like this, maybe someone flying decades but not me. Not good at all.

Tony

[martymayes]

I talked with him a couple days ago and he told me he was selling the airplane. I hope the person whom purchases this airplane looks really close at this airplane.

If you put me in touch with this guy I'd be happy to buy and repair his ultralight.

[martymayes]

Sounds like fun!
I agree. Don't give up Olympus, I'm sure a workable plan is not that difficult to achieve.

[1600vw]

If you put me in touch with this guy I'd be happy to buy and repair his ultralight.


He sold it. I just wonder if he told the new owner he had a prop strike so hard it busted both blades off the prop at the hub. He started the engine for me and said..." It did not hurt the engine" Of course it had a new prop on it. But I saw the old busted prop. It took a yeck of a hit.

Did the engine run, yes and it ran smooth, so maybe it did not hurt the engine.

Tony

[martymayes]

He sold it. I just wonder if he told the new owner he had a prop strike so hard it busted both blades off the prop at the hub. He started the engine for me and said..." It did not hurt the engine" Of course it had a new prop on it. But I saw the old busted prop. It took a yeck of a hit.

Did the engine run, yes and it ran smooth, so maybe it did not hurt the engine.


I agree with the owner.

[Sam Buchanan]

He sold it. I just wonder if he told the new owner he had a prop strike so hard it busted both blades off the prop at the hub. He started the engine for me and said..." It did not hurt the engine" Of course it had a new prop on it. But I saw the old busted prop. It took a yeck of a hit.

Did the engine run, yes and it ran smooth, so maybe it did not hurt the engine.

Tony

No way I would fly that engine.

I have a Legal Eagle, but a prop strike would result in a total teardown and probably a new crank. Those cranks can crack at the prop hub keyway after a prop strike.

[Bob Furr]

I have been flying my Starflight for about 2 years now out of a former USAAC airbase in Nebraska. Nothing like a mile of runway to give you many options when learning. That said it would fly off your grass but the pucker factor would be really high on the landings until you were 100 percent comfortable with the vehicle. Learn to fly somewhere with more runway. Look up Starflight Ultralight on youtube and watch a few of the landing and take off videos. On a smooth surface I am off the ground in about 8 or 9 seconds (and I am 250 pounds). On grass it is about the same but landing rolls are a bit shorter.

[1600vw]

No way I would fly that engine.

I have a Legal Eagle, but a prop strike would result in a total teardown and probably a new crank. Those cranks can crack at the prop hub keyway after a prop strike.

This eagle had a 0-45 on her. This was a double eagle converted to a single seat.

[jrees]

Another thing you might want to look at is the "Backyard Flyer". They're a little higher in cost than you are wanting to pay, but if you could find a used one, it might work for you. I'm thinking of getting one if i can work out a good deal on one. Watch their videos on youtube, very impressive. Take off and land at 25 mph.

[flyrgreen]

Olympus--- To fly without the expense of a license, it must be true UL (under weight, speed, fuel cap, etc), and there very few of those these days that aren't from the 80's. With your budget, an LSA is not in the picture. Old Cubs, Champs, etc. qualify as LSA and can be very cheap to buy but require a Private License to fly, must have A&P do the maintenance & annual, certified parts....
An ultralight flown off the 1000' pavement is the way to go, if the road is legally available. But you need to get some lessons of course, and as has been mentioned, getting quite difficult. EAA has a list of UL instructors.
As for longevity, yes UL's can get pretty boring after awhile (Hey Guys, I said CAN get) but you sound like your interest is high. So start flying, sell it if you get bored.
Someone mentioned the small Kolb (Firefly). A nice UL. And the single-seat Quicksilvers. Also look at the Aerolight 103. Just saw one on Barnstormers (great classified shopping!) in the $6K range.

[zaitcev]

I have a 6 acre piece of property with about a 150 yard flat and wide strip that I believe would be great for a UL. (...) My doubts are that I'll wish I had more range than a 5gal fuel tank can provide. I'm not a speed demon, but cruising at 55 to 60 into a headwind may get old quick.
(...)
Not to mention the LSAs are a lot higher than the ULs. I'm looking at a total budget of absolutely no more than $13k total. So that's either $13k for a UL or $13k for a sport license and whatever is left for a LSA.

I think you did a good consideration already and you know that buget, speed/range, and STOL requirements fight each other. A modern STOL LSA would do, but they are all above $80k (perhaps $65k used). A smaller engine and lighter weight make it cheaper, but when you get under $13k, you lose a lot of speed and range.

I think that in your case the best would be something like a second-hand Kitfox with a 582 engine. Or something unconventional, such as a weight-shift trike.

[L1K2F3]

A B1-RD was mentioned previously...I own a B1-RD and fly in and out of 450' all the time... but I wouldn't want to learn on such a short strip. Get a couple of dozen TO & landings under your belt and walla.. Also you might enjoy flying an ultralight for a while and can always "graduate" to LSA later. Also.. don't know what your local laws are but here in Wisconsin as soon as you're on asphalt and the engine is running you are fair game for he local constabulary..

[Norman Langlois]

I am a new pilot. Ok I fly from water not land .I have 30 or 40 TO and landings I still cant get down on a postage stamp.A gust of wind keep you up longer than expected and you are going to have a bad day.You need to get it right every time . You will need that training for that strip. Its easy to get air born I get up in 6 to10 seconds use an unknown footage there are no lines on a lake. But I know I use 2 to 3 time that getting down. As for the UL I love mine Yes it is mine. Design and all. Wasn't exactly cheap but then it was over a long period. Buy A kit and build , you will get a bigger picture of what you are doing and you will keep the price and expenses where you need them. Get that training and you may well be ok on that runway. I am not bored yet but that slow stuff does wear on me.

[jedi]

......
I've been kicking around the idea of ULs as a way to get back up in the air without as much cost. What's worse is that a friend bought a GT500 and keeps it at his house. He uses his gravel road as an airstrip and it's incredibly handy. This has spurred my interest in ULs.

I have a 6 acre piece of property with about a 150 yard flat and wide strip that I believe would be great for a UL. I have a large shop that I could use as my own hangar. I live outside of any city limits and there is no regulated airspace near me. I think I might be in a good position to buy a UL. My doubts are that I'll wish I had more range than a 5gal fuel tank can provide. I'm not a speed demon, but cruising at 55 to 60 into a headwind may get old quick. And my buddy says I'll want an engine bigger, at least 40hp.

The LSA route sounds even better, but might be prohibited based on my possible "short field" grass strip and more expensive due to needing a sport license and having to do annuals on the plane. Not to mention the LSAs are a lot higher than the ULs. I'm looking at a total budget of absolutely no more than $13k total. So that's either $13k for a UL or $13k for a sport license and whatever is left for a LSA.

I really need some advice from some seasoned vets. Is this a viable option or is it still a pipedream?

UL or experimental LSA (former UL but too heavy or two seat) would be the way to go. LS certificate should not be too expensive if you have your own aircraft and the right CFI. I can tell you of a "poor mans super cub" near, but slightly above, your price range if you are interested.

cfig1467368@yahoo.com