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brownsfan11
10-28-2013, 09:33 AM
Hello all,

I'm sure this question has been beat to death in many other threads, but I was hoping to get an answer specific to my situation. I am a student (a financially limited one at that) looking to get into the world of flying. I am not sure if I plan to make a career of it one day, but right now I would just like to earn a basic license. I would be open to just a Sport Pilot License right now while I finish school, but I will eventually want a Private Pilot. After doing some research, I have four options for a flight school in my area. The options are:

Door #1: About 40 minutes from where I live there is a flying club that offers flight lessons. They have reasonable prices, a ground school, several aircraft/instructors, and seem to be a friendly community, but they discourage the Sport Pilot License on their website and require membership to take lessons. Also, the 40 minute drive is a bit of an obstacle if I hope to take lessons frequently.

Door #2: The more traditional flight school "business" at the major airport where I live. The prices are fair and they have a large number instructors and a high turnover of students. Only 25 minutes away, and the only major concern I see is learning how to fly around a busy international airport.

Door #3: 10 minutes from my house is a small paved airstrip with several hangars and planes. There is no flight school offered there, but I could track down a freelance CFI or perhaps find one at the airfield and then study on my own for the written test. This is the wild card, is it a good idea? Anyone done something similar?

Door #4: Finally, 45 minutes away there is a small regional airport with a flight school that offers Sport Pilot training and Private Pilot training. Their prices are the lowest, and I believe their Sport Pilot training would count towards Private Pilot hours.

What are your thoughts? Is there a best overall choice here? I'm hoping to avoid major Sport Pilot vs. Private Pilot debate here, for the sake of argument the Sport License is exactly half the cost of the private and would serve to just get me in the air until I can afford more training.

Much appreciated.

Tessmacher
10-28-2013, 09:54 AM
Yay! Another guy interested in buying lunch without having to pay for a seven-course meal!

If it were me (and I had that many options!) I would have a tough time choosing between door #2 and door #3.

If you look at it from a "learning" vs. "training" standpoint, what I've felt was the most difficult part of the process was radio procedures, airport procedures, and flight in controlled airspace. You'll learn from the very beginning the right way to handle all of this if you learn at the flight school at the big airport. That's experience that you can't beat, IMHO. The learning curve might be a little steeper than it would be at a small airstrip without a tower, but in the long run, it is great experience to get up front.

On the other hand, if you were at the less-busy, less-structured small airstrip, you could focus on the stick-and-rudder flying, and then pick up the traffic-laden environment experience once you have some confidence.

I'd eliminate #1 immediately, having had miserably bad experiences with both flying clubs and schools that trash the Sport Pilot Cert. It's YOUR money, you spend it where you want, and not where someone else tells you that you should. If you were the least bit uncomfortable with them telling you that SPC is worthless, then let them have their own little private hell to live in. I personally wouldn't really consider #4 as an option (only for me, not for you) because of the distance. If they embrace SP, then more power to them, and you might give them a closer look to see if you like them or not.

The "best overall choice" is the one where you and your CFI are going to click, communicate, and enjoy each other's company. There's only one way to find out, and that's to go to each of the three viable options, sit down and talk to them, meet some instructors, and maybe fly an hour with each of them. You'll know right away whether or not you're going to like the one sitting next to you, as soon as you rotate.

I'd probably start (if it were me) at the big airport (Door #2) first.

Congrats!

jasstech
10-28-2013, 10:59 AM
Hang out at doors #2 and #3. Which has an environment more suited to what you are looking for? Is door #3 a dead or dying airport, or is it a small but vibrant one? I would be inclined to go with door #3, but I would make sure the environment was a good one first, and then look around for an instructor that will work for your learning style.

brownsfan11
10-28-2013, 11:13 AM
Sounds like too many options is a good problem to have! :D I am not totally ruling out the flying club, but the distance is a huge factor. I think I'd accumulate hours much more quickly and retain much more if I am able to take frequent lessons nearby. Can anyone offer some tips on finding a CFI? In response to jasstech, the airport is rather old and a little dilapidated, but has regular traffic.

Bunkie
10-28-2013, 11:36 AM
I have to disagree with Tessmacher here, a blanket dismissal of flying clubs is just plain wrong. If you were near my flying club, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat. It really does depend on the club itself.

As for the Sport/PPL question, it really depends. The biggest issue I see with the SP license is access to aircraft. Almost every field has rental Cessnas or Pipers. Rental LSAs are still fairly rare. I think that this is the biggest obstacle to getting an SP license. Some people think it's a result of attitude and, perhaps, that is partly to blame but just look at the cost of training aircraft. Older C172s and C152s can be had for a fraction of the cost of even a used LSA. This, I think is the real reason why it's tough to get an SP license. Most flight schools just don't see any profit in it. I've spoken with a couple of schools that had discontinued their SP programs because they couldn't make it work. The new President of Cessna has stated the their LSA, the C162 Skycatcher, "has no future". Now Skycatchers aren't the best LSAs, to be sure, but an aircraft that costs $150K new (as many new LSAs do) and gets rented out less than 10 hours per month is going to be a real money loser compared to the used $50K or even $100K C172 that gets rented out 25-30 hours per month. Perhaps the least expensive way to get an SP license is to find a club or school with an older LSA-compliant aircraft such as a Piper Cub. One benefit of this is that you will most likely start off as a tailwheel pilot which is known, in many cases, to give you better rudder control.

On another note, I've written in my other thread about the economics of learning to fly. Like you, budget was the primary consideration when I got started. It's certainly very important. But it's more important to think about the quality and type of training you are going to get as you will certainly learn more about your real needs as you progress.

I would agree that if you can find a workable SP program, that would be your easiest way to get started. And, yes, all your training hours count toward a full PPL, you just need to complete the instructor-led and solo training that is specific to a full PPL (as well as take the written and practical tests, of course!)

brownsfan11
10-28-2013, 03:01 PM
Thanks for all the tips, after looking a little more I actually found a CFI listed for the airfield I was talking about. I will have to get in touch with him and see what his situation is. The fact that I may have to rent a plane to learn if the CFI does not have his own is a little daunting and may mean I still go to a real school instead. Any experience as to renting a plane for lessons/hiring a freelance CFI like this one?

Tessmacher
10-28-2013, 05:53 PM
I have to disagree with Tessmacher here, a blanket dismissal of flying clubs is just plain wrong. If you were near my flying club, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat. It really does depend on the club itself

You may disagree about YOUR club, but I bet you don't ask for bank statements up front, and deter people from finding out information about you if they don't drive up in a Mercedes.

That has been my experience with flying clubs. Yours may be better, but you're the exception, rather than the rule.

Bill
10-28-2013, 09:53 PM
You may disagree about YOUR club, but I bet you don't ask for bank statements up front, and deter people from finding out information about you if they don't drive up in a Mercedes.

That has been my experience with flying clubs. Yours may be better, but you're the exception, rather than the rule.

What statistically basis do you have for this assertion that Bunkie's is the exception? There are multiple hundreds of flying clubs. How many have you sampled? How many of those require ownership of a Mercedes as a precondition for membership?

Mike Switzer
10-28-2013, 10:54 PM
What statistically basis do you have for this assertion that Bunkie's is the exception? There are multiple hundreds of flying clubs. How many have you sampled? How many of those require ownership of a Mercedes as a precondition for membership?

This guy (Tessmacher) has some sort of axe to grind, & we aren't getting the whole story. He never has told us where he is or what clubs & FBOs he is complaining about.

I am an officer in a very old flying club, many of our members are not what you would call "upper class" but as long as I have been in the club we have had an application process that includes some bit of a check to make sure we will get paid at the end of the month. We don't ask for a bank statement but I can see why a club would as someone that never has over a couple hundred in the account at any given time can't be relied on to pay a fuel bill at the end of the month.

jasstech
10-29-2013, 03:51 AM
An old airport with regular traffic can be a good thing. It means there is a good chance that there are actually pilots that hang out there, and if you take the time to meet and hang out with some of them you will increase your chances of success. Finding a good CFI can be tricky. Most I have flown with were great, but there was one in particular that seemed more interested in dragging things out to pad his pocket. Needless to say I fired him and found a new CFI. This is another area where trying to meet some pilots at the airport will help. Ask them about instructors. They will have one they use for flight reviews and may be able to let you know of a great one. When learning to fly I would say most people at one point start to question their ability to do it. Having a quality CFI and some friends on the field to talk to will help convince you that struggling is part of it, everyone goes through it, and not to give up.

Tessmacher
10-29-2013, 10:58 AM
This guy (Tessmacher) has some sort of axe to grind, & we aren't getting the whole story. He never has told us where he is or what clubs & FBOs he is complaining about.


And you're not going to. It's called "privacy"...

My experience with flying clubs is and will remain, enough to deter me from them for eternity.

Everyone else may be different, but that's THEM. My experience was what it was.

The only "axe to grind" that I have, is idiots like you who think that there are people out there who either have an axe to grind, or who don't recognize that there are folks in this world who think that they're better than others, because their bank account is fatter. When the FIRST thing the guy says to you is (a direct quote) "Unless you provide me with your bank statements for the last three months, I don't have time for you" then there's a problem. And that's the whole story. I walked in, he looked me over, and that was that.

If you don't see that, you're part of the problem.

I would say something distasteful to you, but you clearly aren't worth the effort. You would either rationalise it away, or you wouldn't get it.

jedi
10-29-2013, 01:07 PM
Thanks for all the tips, after looking a little more I actually found a CFI listed for the airfield I was talking about. I will have to get in touch with him and see what his situation is. The fact that I may have to rent a plane to learn if the CFI does not have his own is a little daunting and may mean I still go to a real school instead. Any experience as to renting a plane for lessons/hiring a freelance CFI like this one?

I train in many types of aircraft but do not have a training plane. You will find it difficult (or impossible) to rent a plane (from a FBO) when you are not a rated pilot and will be providing an instructor. Check with the CFI to see what he can do to provide an aircraft to teach in. If you can work out the details this may be the least expensive and possibly the best route to follow.

In my situation I teach in such a variety of aircraft that it would be impossible to have an adequate stable of vehicles. I get enough business from owners who can't find good instruction in their aircraft.

Try the local field but if it does not work move on. Do not feel that you need to get all your instruction from the same facility. You will get a more divers education if you fly from a variety of locations. Do not just hop around for no reason however.

Be certain that all instruction is from a "real" (Subpart H) (not just sport pilot, Subpart J) CFI so that it will count towards the PP. (Sorry, I can't remember the proper section numbers in part 61). Sport pilot training does not need to be in a LSA; only the check ride requires the LSA. You will need to decide which way to go, SP vs. PP when you take the written test. You will save money in the long run by eliminating the SP excursion if your goal is PP. Given your situation, I would recommend the PP. It will take longer but you will get much more. Only down side is it will take longer before you can carry passengers.

At this point the goal should be to enjoy the journey not to reach the destination.

Mike Switzer
10-29-2013, 01:32 PM
Well, sorry I tried to help. :(

Mike Switzer
10-29-2013, 07:16 PM
To the OP: A club (a true club, not an FBO that calls itself a club) is usually your cheapest option, and you will be co-owner of the club's assets & will meet like minded people. Like any other private club there are rules & bylaws for joining.

I have been a member in several private clubs (not just a flying club) and every one did some sort of background & financial check. If you have a problem with that you are better off paying as you go at an FBO.

brownsfan11
10-29-2013, 07:27 PM
Ask them about instructors. They will have one they use for flight reviews and may be able to let you know of a great one. When learning to fly I would say most people at one point start to question their ability to do it. Having a quality CFI and some friends on the field to talk to will help convince you that struggling is part of it, everyone goes through it, and not to give up.
After seeing similar advice in other forums I think that my first step should be just to get out to the airstrip and strike up some conversations. Thank you for that.

Be certain That all instruction is from a "real" (Subpart H) (not just sport pilot, Subpart J) CFI so that it will count towards the PP.Ah, this has been my fear all along. Now I know exactly where to look for the fine print, thanks.

Well, its the start of a long and hopeful journey! Many licenses and endorsements from now I'll have to fly up to Oshkosh and meet more of the EAA crowd in person. Truly, thank you for all the help.

Feel free to leave this thread open for debate and discussion, but consider my questions answered. Until next time!