Sport Pilot Training Needed in Montgomery, AL (and everywhere else...)

[jasondepew]

Hi All,

I have a friend who has always wanted to be a pilot, but didn't think he'd qualify for a medical because of something silly like colorblindness. He's in a position in life now where he has the time and means to learn to fly. He is healthy and he has a driver's license, so he's a perfect candidate for a Sport Pilot rating.

He's in Montgomery, AL. Where is there an LSA and an instructor I can send him to?

Worst case: he'd probably drive an hour to do an intro flight and get excited about it and wait until he moves somewhere else to start training.

Best case: there is a place within 30 minutes or so of Montgomery and he could potentially start full-time training and then rent the airplane once he gets his rating.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Jason

[Check 6]

Hi All,

I have a friend who has always wanted to be a pilot, but didn't think he'd qualify for a medical because of something silly like colorblindness. He's in a position in life now where he has the time and means to learn to fly. He is healthy and he has a driver's license, so he's a perfect candidate for a Sport Pilot rating.

He's in Montgomery, AL. Where is there an LSA and an instructor I can send him to?

Worst case: he'd probably drive an hour to do an intro flight and get excited about it and wait until he moves somewhere else to start training.

Best case: there is a place within 30 minutes or so of Montgomery and he could potentially start full-time training and then rent the airplane once he gets his rating.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Jason

Maybe one of these is close: http://www.sportpilot.org/instructors/index.html

[Bill Greenwood]

How bad is his colorblindness? There is such a thing as a demonstrated capability, if I have the term right. That is if you can't pass a color vision test with the chart the doctors use with numbers made up of colored dots, you can ask to use the light gun at the tower and some people are able to see that and pass.
Good vision is important to flying, but the color part of it is not as critical in the real world.
If I had the time and money and was serious about learning to fly,(which most people aren't) and could pass the medical test, then I would start training as a private pilot, not just short cut it. Once you are a private pilot you can fly not only "normal" airplanes, but also LSAs etc.

[Bill]

If he's worried about color blindness, before he goes to an AME, he should go to an optometrist (I think that they're less expensive than MDs) and have the optometrist give him one of the following tests that the FAA mandates that AMEs use:



AOC (1965 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
AOC-HRR (second edition): Any error in test plates 7-11. Because the first 4 plates in the test book are for demonstration only, test plate 7 is actually the eleventh plate in the book. (See instruction booklet.)
Dvorine pseudoisochromatic plates (second edition, 15 plates): seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
Ishihara pseudoisochromatic plates: Concise 14-plate edition: six or more errors on plates 1-11; the 24-plate edition: seven or more errors on plates 1-15; the 38-plate edition: nine or more errors on plates 1-21.
Richmond (1983 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
OPTEC 900 Vision tester and Farnsworth Lantern test: an average of more than one error per series of nine color pairs in series 2 and 3. (See instruction booklet.)
Titmus Vision Tester, Titmus 2 Vision Tester, Titmus i400, OPTEC 2000 Vision Tester, Keystone Orthoscope, or Keystone View Telebinocular: any errors in the six plates.
LKC Technologies, Inc., APT-5 Color Vision Tester: The letter must be correctly identified in at least two of the three presentations of each test condition. (See APT-5 screening chart for FAA-related testing in instruction booklet.)
Richmond-HRR, 4th edition: two or more errors on plates 5-24. Plates 1-4 are for demonstration only; plates 5-10 are screening plates; and plates 11-24 are diagnostic plates


[from the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners, Item 52]



He will then know whether or not he can get a 3rd-class without the operating limitation "not valid for night flying or by color signal control." This means no night flying and no flying into or out of airports with operating control towers. The operating limitation can, however, be removed for a 3rd-class medical by taking the Operational Color Vision Test (OCVT), which is the light-signal test. You only get one chance to take it during the day and may also be required to take it at night. If you are successful, the FAA will issue you a Letter of Evidence (LOE) and then the AME can issue a 3rd-class certificate without the night flying and color signal control caveats.

The use of X-Chrom lens is specifically prohibited by the FAA. This is unfortunate, since they really work well with the only disadvantage being that your vision in the dominant eye goes to 20/40 due to the increased OPL in that eye. I found them very useful.

[jasondepew]

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm glad there are options for the color vision issues. Now to go shopping for an intro flight gift certificate!

[1600vw]

If you would like to speak with a Doctor jump on this site.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7950148

Dr.Chien " I believe I spelled his name correctly" monitors this site and will jump right in with some advice.

[1600vw]

Whats needed is CFI's whom will teach the SP program as its written and not how they believe its should be taught. Most or 90% of the CFI's whom will tell you they will teach SP will then want you to do things the SP will never do or more then what is required of the sport pilot.
I have heard many students complain about this. I could give you examples of what I speak but why. Just speak to some students and you will hear the same things I have.

[Bill Greenwood]

Is there still both a recreation pilot certificate and a sport pilot one? If so, what is the difference between them?
Can you obtain a sport pilot cert in a normal airplane like a 172 by just leaving out some parts of the training?

By the way, just my opinion, but based on almost 35 years as a pilot; the most important thing is to get started, no matter which kind of cert you are seeking. Sure if takes $8500 or so to complete a private cert, and for many people that is a lot of money to spend over a few months, but for many if they really like flying, they will look for ways to do it, and not reasons not to do it.
Two money examples: Do you buy coffee at a restaurant every morning? I saw a money article that pointed out that this totals about $1300 per year. Same if you buy a couple of cokes a day. As a larger issue, I have seen guys driving around in a $35,000 pickup truck and saying they can't afford to fly. My car is a 22 year old Mercedes 300 TE, which had 139,000 miles when the odometer stopped working a few years back. I'd never buy a new car, but I could get a pretty nice one for under $15,000, but that is money that I spend on the planes and flying.
I did have the line guys at the airport tell me I needed a new car.

As for as which training you start with, just get started, but don't sell yourself short. I haven't often used my night flyihg rating, but have a few times and my instrument rating has been a safety factor and allowed me to fly in some marginal weather many times, even if I wasn't in full IMC and on an IFR flight plan.
It is pretty hard to know for sure when you start training exactly what kind of flying you will do years or decades later. Part of the joy of flying is the learning process, it is not a matter of just getting through the purgatory of training and then all the rest is heaven. If it is like that to you, most likely you have the wrong CFI. A good CFI is the next most important thing for a student. As for as having a medical or not, either way, you can still learn as much as possible about all kinds of flying, IFR or night or acro or whatever, even if you are not going to be legally doing it solo.
Very basic flying without legal or regulatory issues can be fun; just like the hang gliding I used to do in San Diego. But on the other hand, it is also fun to get in a capable, complex retract like my Bonanza and fly all the way to the Bahamas or Oshkosh or some place.
Doing only one side of aviation is like going to chef school and only learn to cook one kind of food.
And if I couldn't afford to do any flying on my own or had a real medical issue, I might well be a volunteer with the CAF or EAA or such to be a crew member around a B-17 or similar, if there was one in my area.

[jasondepew]

Is there still both a recreation pilot certificate and a sport pilot one? If so, what is the difference between them?
Can you obtain a sport pilot cert in a normal airplane like a 172 by just leaving out some parts of the training?

There is still a recreational pilot certificate. It's 30 hrs...right between SP and private. I think a lot of the limitations on how you operate are the same. You must use an LSA to do SP training. You can train for recreational pilot (and fly as PIC) in an LSA or fixed gear normal category planes. I think you can even fly a 4-plane plane as long as the back seats are empty. I haven't paid much attention to it because I've never heard of anyone going for the rating.


Doing only one side of aviation is like going to chef school and only learn to cook one kind of food.

I think this hits it on the head. I think almost all pilots get sucked into this. Most of the Air Force pilots I fly with think their own type of flying is the only/ultimate type of flying out there and nothing else could be interesting or worth their time. Boy are they missing out! I've enjoyed flying open cockpit gliders at 40 kts, T-38s in formation through Big Bend National Park at 500' AGL and lost of other things along that scale. It's all fun and it's all worth doing. I think that 1600vw is right...a lot of civilian CFIs are so versed in the cookie-cutter approach to aviation that they don't realize that someone might have flying goals that don't require/fit that mold.

I teach regularly in technologically advanced aircraft and I think they're great. The things modern avionics are capable of are just amazing. However, I worry that our whole industry is getting sucked into those big LCD displays and forgetting that it's ok to focus on teaching a guy how to manage winds and energy and those pedal thingies on the floor.... I'd love to take a few students through SP and let them enjoy it for a while on their own and then bring them back and finish up their private 6-24 months later. I bet they'd love the process. All I need to do is convince the Man to let me settle down somewhere and then go buy a Champ or two.

[Bunkie]

"pedal thingies on the floor"

I *love* that!

Hey, I'm a technology guy. I've been writing code and soldering things for most of my life. But there's something so terribly *elemental* about flying the traditional way. There's been this wonderful series on Nature called Earth Flight that has spectacular footage of birds. Flight training has given me a new appreciation for how birds fly. It's wonderful to see a large bird manage a landing and thinking about stall speeds, drag, roll control and all the other inputs that go into flying.

[Frank Giger]

It's a bit far to drive from Montgomery, but Jim McLeod in Pell City was my SP CFI, and a darned good one (he managed to make a safe pilot outta the likes of me!).

As far as the "only one side of aviation" line of thought goes, there's also the "why pay for a seven course meal when all one wants is lunch?" After all, I have a driver's license with a motorcycle endorsement - am I really missing out because I don't have a CDL and can't handle an eighteen-wheeler?

Saying one wouldn't drive at all if they couldn't take a Peterbuilt pulling two bulldozers on a lowboy through the rockies in a blizzard is just as silly as "I wouldn't fly if I couldn't pilot a complex aircraft."

Like everything, it boils down to goals and mission parameters. For myself, that meant simple, light aircraft under obvious VFR conditions for fun. I could pass a physical without a hitch, but when I crunched the numbers for a SPL against a PPL it didn't add up.

Do I really need to go under the hood or fly at night when my certified plane of choice is a Champ and the plane I'm building is a single seat daytime VFR 7/8 scale Nieuport 11 biplane? Considering the cost difference between the two licenses is half (or double, depending on point of view) - and, oddly enough, almost matching the price of my engine - it didn't make sense.

And I'm not restricted by the SPL in the least, considering the aircraft I fly. A "every certification" pilot is going to be just as grounded by weather in a Champ as is a Sport Pilot with a just a tailwheel endorsement. Plus no amount of training is going to excuse flying a VFR aircraft into IMC; let's throw that specious argument into the trash, where it belongs.

The world of stick-and-rudder flying is wide open for Sport Pilots; I'm doing upset training today for my BFR, and next year am going to do the basic aerobatic course (no, I don't want to compete - it's for the precision and other skills one gains from it that matters to me). I've already done spin training for the same reason.

That said, it's comes back to goals and mission parameters. If I were looking at aviation as a transportation option I'd go PPL; it opens up aircraft more suited for it than Champs, Cubs, or gold-plated composite techno-wonders.

[edit]

Btw, Sport Pilots can do aerobatics flying solo legally - if the aircraft is rated for it. Don't know why this myth is out there, but Sport Pilots can even compete in the USA.

[Tessmacher]

Mr. Giger, I salute you.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen. I am sick to death of the attitude that LSA is worthless, and having had three different CFIs at three different airports tell me that they don't do "that sport pilot crap" (a direct quote from one of them) and all of them tell me they don't fool with it because they can't make money off of it, and all of them tell me "why waste your time with a ticket you can't do anything with?" has me seeing red.

I don't want to fly a Bonanza cross country at night. I want to get out when I can, and just fly around locally, in the daytime. Maybe go to another state for a day trip and lunch, and that sort of thing. All of the FBOs I've talked to have all told me that since they can't make money off of Sport Pilots, they don't want to have anything to do with it, and were rude in the telling. As if they were doing me a favour by offering ONLY Private Pilot so they can fill their wallets.

Where does a guy find a Sport Pilot CFI? I've searched the AOPA listing of instructors, I've searched the EAA listing of instructors, and I've called every airport within 50 miles of me. Th nearest one I can find is 141 miles away. Too far to drive regularly.

What's a guy to do?

[pacerpilot]

Frank nailed it! I especially like the "why pay for a seven course meal when all one wants is lunch" analogy. He's right on point with the drivers license too. I have a CDL. I also drive trucks for a living. However, previously I let my CDL go because I didn't use it-only to get it back later. Flying is pretty much the same. I used to fly high, fast and, in the murk; but not anymore. Now I just knock around the patch in my Junior Ace and take my dog for rides. If I was just learning to fly and this was my mission, I'd be looking for a sport pilot cert too. Why spend more than you need.

[Jim Hann]

Mr. Giger, I salute you.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen. I am sick to death of the attitude that LSA is worthless, and having had three different CFIs at three different airports tell me that they don't do "that sport pilot crap" (a direct quote from one of them) and all of them tell me they don't fool with it because they can't make money off of it, and all of them tell me "why waste your time with a ticket you can't do anything with?" has me seeing red.

I don't want to fly a Bonanza cross country at night. I want to get out when I can, and just fly around locally, in the daytime. Maybe go to another state for a day trip and lunch, and that sort of thing. All of the FBOs I've talked to have all told me that since they can't make money off of Sport Pilots, they don't want to have anything to do with it, and were rude in the telling. As if they were doing me a favour by offering ONLY Private Pilot so they can fill their wallets.

Where does a guy find a Sport Pilot CFI? I've searched the AOPA listing of instructors, I've searched the EAA listing of instructors, and I've called every airport within 50 miles of me. Th nearest one I can find is 141 miles away. Too far to drive regularly.

What's a guy to do?

Tessmacher et al,

Have you considered looking for a place to do it on a compressed schedule? I know our local FBO St. Charles Flying Service (http://www.stcharlesflyingservice.com/) has done this multiple times. You might want to give Dennis a call and talk to him. They are currently down one LSA due to a takeoff accident by a renter but are very actively searching for another one. They also have a Facebook page if you are so inclined.

These FBOs are short-sighted, I know we have at least one and probably more folks locally who started in SP and ended up changing to Private certification. We are our own worst enemy sometimes.

If you won't be renting there is not the need to establish a connection with them anyway. I'm just thinking out loud here!

Jim

[rmock]

Hi everyone. I'm to young but when I'm old enough, I'm totally going for my Sport Pilot's li cence. I live by a lake and when I was younger, there was a man who owned an LSA and flew it around the lake all the time....that looked so fun! When I can get the SP, there is no need to go for the private, i'll do that later. Right now, I just want to maybe rent an LSA and fly around that lake. That would be so fun.

[jasondepew]

It's a bit far to drive from Montgomery, but Jim McLeod in Pell City was my SP CFI, and a darned good one (he managed to make a safe pilot outta the likes of me!).

Saying one wouldn't drive at all if they couldn't take a Peterbuilt pulling two bulldozers on a lowboy through the rockies in a blizzard is just as silly as "I wouldn't fly if I couldn't pilot a complex aircraft."

The world of stick-and-rudder flying is wide open for Sport Pilots; I'm doing upset training today for my BFR, and next year am going to do the basic aerobatic course (no, I don't want to compete - it's for the precision and other skills one gains from it that matters to me). I've already done spin training for the same reason.

That said, it's comes back to goals and mission parameters. If I were looking at aviation as a transportation option I'd go PPL; it opens up aircraft more suited for it than Champs, Cubs, or gold-plated composite techno-wonders.

[edit]

Btw, Sport Pilots can do aerobatics flying solo legally - if the aircraft is rated for it. Don't know why this myth is out there, but Sport Pilots can even compete in the USA.

Absolutely great points Frank. I think upset training and spinning will benefit any pilot and I definitely recommend an aerobatics course. You could spend years enjoying aerobatics as a sport pilot without getting thirsty for anything else. If at any point you do decide you want to fly something bigger and spend more time with your wings level you'll have enough hours and stick and rudder skills to make adding a private rating a snap. In the meantime, you're enjoying flying...you can take passengers...you're being a pilot. That's better than sitting on the ground because your big 18-wheeler is too expensive to fly more often.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I wrote Jim this morning, but I'll keep St Charles in mind too.

[Frank Giger]

The other reason the PPL instructors are missing the boat is that Sport Pilots are a sort of ongoing cash cow.

In addition to my SPL, I paid additionally for tailwheel instruction. I'll pay additionally for controlled airspace endorsements.

And, of course, I paid for the Under 87 Knots Cruise Speed endorsement, since the CTLS I trained in was over 87, and the Champ is less than 87, though it was concurrent with tailwheel. Thank goodness they did away with the stupid Set garbage, as it meant paying a potential six times for endorsements on aircraft.

Btw, Jim has had students coming from as far away as Auburn!

[edit]

Flying low and slow over lakes and rivers is just as great as one can imagine it. Most of my flying is just a jaunt up and down the Coosa River, looking at the banks, the wildlife, the cows munching on grass....

Once when the water was especially clear I could actually see where the fish were, and waved to some guys in a boat over to where they were. At first they didn't know why the idiot in the airplane was doing a gentle circle near them and waving only to do another circle 1500 feet away and pointing down, but then a lightbulb went off and they pulled in their lines and trolled over to the slough. On the way back they waved and held up a full stringer!