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dewi8095
09-13-2013, 03:07 PM
Will the aviation insurers (AOPA, Falcon, Avemco, etc) sell liability and hull insurance on ultralights, or is it common for ultralight owners to fly without any insurance coverage?

sonex293
09-13-2013, 03:45 PM
Ultralight liability insurance is available to USUA members...

http://www.usua.org/Insurance/

==
Michael

Buzz
09-15-2013, 01:15 PM
Ultralight liability insurance is available to USUA members...

Investigate carefully.

I've been flying ultralights for over 30 years. It seems to me that the reason why insurance was ever offered is because some airports required it in the early years. There have been multiple insurance offerings that have come and gone.

I've never met or heard of a ultralight owner that has bought the insurance the numerous times it's been available from various places in the last 30 years.

I can't understand how one would file a claim for hull damage. Who would write the damage estimate? An A&P isn't going to want to work on anything without an N-number. I doubt an insurance company is going to write a check to an owner on their statement about the loss or damage. What reporting body details the loss for a claim? There are not "ultralight accident insurance adjusters" running around.

And what liability does an ultralight create for anyone else? We're not supposed to be over populated areas. Crop damage from an off airport landing? "Causing" another airplane to crash? Who proves it's my fault rather than their fault?

I believe nearly everyone over the years has concluded it's a waste of money unless someone else [like an airport] is mandating you buy a policy.

My thoughts.

-Buzz

1600vw
09-16-2013, 05:30 AM
Investigate carefully.

I've been flying ultralights for over 30 years. It seems to me that the reason why insurance was ever offered is because some airports required it in the early years. There have been multiple insurance offerings that have come and gone.

I've never met or heard of a ultralight owner that has bought the insurance the numerous times it's been available from various places in the last 30 years.

I can't understand how one would file a claim for hull damage. Who would write the damage estimate? An A&P isn't going to want to work on anything without an N-number. I doubt an insurance company is going to write a check to an owner on their statement about the loss or damage. What reporting body details the loss for a claim? There are not "ultralight accident insurance adjusters" running around.

And what liability does an ultralight create for anyone else? We're not supposed to be over populated areas. Crop damage from an off airport landing? "Causing" another airplane to crash? Who proves it's my fault rather than their fault?

I believe nearly everyone over the years has concluded it's a waste of money unless someone else [like an airport] is mandating you buy a policy.

My thoughts.

-Buzz

I believe this is why the insurance companies will write one of these. They know its money in and no money out, for whom will they pay. But just try and get hanger insurance on that same airplane, so if something takes the hanger down the ultralight or experimental is covered. They will tell you they do not offer this, because now they might have to pay something out to someone.
Just a big scam to me. I need insurance or want insurance for when I am away from my airplane not when I am with it. I did have one insurance agent tell me 800 bucks a year to cover this non motion in hanger coverage. You have got to be kidding me 800 bucks a year to cover this.

pacerpilot
09-16-2013, 02:29 PM
I've never encountered an insurance company that would write an Ultralight policy.

Buzz
09-16-2013, 03:47 PM
I've never encountered an insurance company that would write an Ultralight policy.The United States Ultralight Association has had one for quite some time but I've never heard of anyone buying the policy. As "insurance", it's pretty worthless I believe.

martymayes
09-16-2013, 04:54 PM
Apparently at one time, Avemco did offer Ultralight vehicle insurance, both liability and hull coverage. I found an old(er) article saying they had (at the time the article was written) >400 active ultralight insurance policies. I'm sure other companies offered the same but not sure if that's the case today. Unfortunately, if ultralight activity is uninsurable, at least from a liability standpoint, it has effectively been choked.

Sam Buchanan
09-16-2013, 06:33 PM
The United States Ultralight Association has had one for quite some time but I've never heard of anyone buying the policy. As "insurance", it's pretty worthless I believe.

I've had USUA's third-party liability policy for nearly three years. I consider a liability policy to be essential, especially if my aircraft is going to be anywhere near other planes or any people.

The comments about determining hull value are moot since this is a liability only policy. I have the policy in case my Legal Eagle is somehow connected with a hangar fire, somebody walks into the spinning prop, the plane impacts another aircraft on the ground (hand-propping gone very bad???), or some other scenario where damage occurs as a result of my plane damaging/injuring another plane or person.

I would not base my UL on an airport without the insurance even if the airport allowed it (most won't). To put my family's entire assets at risk over a $10,000 aircraft is unconscionable for me when insurance is readily available. The policy offers $1,000,000 liability coverage plus a personal injury payment. The USUA policy was the only one I could find for a non N-numbered aircraft. Applications are available online.

http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/Site/375021952/airsports.asp

I don't leave home without it. $400/year well-spent. ;)

pacerpilot
09-16-2013, 07:22 PM
I've had USUA's third-party liability policy for nearly three years. I consider a liability policy to be essential, especially if my aircraft is going to be anywhere near other planes or any people.

The comments about determining hull value.......aircraft is unconscionable for me when insurance is readily available. The policy offers $1,000,000 liability coverage plus a personal injury payment. The USUA policy was the only one I could find for a non N-numbered aircraft. Applications are available online.

http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/Site/375021952/airsports.asp

I don't leave home without it. $400/year well-spent. ;)

I joined the USUA a few years back and got nothing for it. I did it just for the insurance; $35 bucks wasted. There was no activity on the web site, no mailings, nothing. I looked into the liability insurance and sent a form to whatever company/broker was handling it-again, nothing. I was informed they had disbanded and basically I had sent my money to whoever was the last contact to collect it-thank you very much. I can assume by your post that they've resurrected and are again in business. Good luck with them and I hope they're doing things correctly now.

Sam Buchanan
09-16-2013, 07:42 PM
I joined the USUA a few years back and got nothing for it. I did it just for the insurance; $35 bucks wasted. There was no activity on the web site, no mailings, nothing. I looked into the liability insurance and sent a form to whatever company/broker was handling it-again, nothing. I was informed they had disbanded and basically I had sent my money to whoever was the last contact to collect it-thank you very much. I can assume by your post that they've resurrected and are again in business. Good luck with them and I hope they're doing things correctly now.

I don't know the details but I was told by an individual who is now connected with USUA that a few years ago the association officers walked. It is now staffed by a couple of volunteers who are trying to get it back up to speed. But regardless of the association's health, it exists and the third-party policy is available. I have a signed policy in hand.

I hope they make a go of it because if the USUA tanks again, there may not be any insurance for non N-numbered aircraft. At that point I would be forced to N-number the Legal Eagle in order to obtain liability coverage. I have no interest in hull coverage because the hull value is low and I self-insure the hull.

1600vw
09-17-2013, 04:31 AM
http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/Site/375021952/airsports.asp

dewi8095
09-17-2013, 04:41 AM
I've had USUA's third-party liability policy for nearly three years. I consider a liability policy to be essential, especially if my aircraft is going to be anywhere near other planes or any people.

The comments about determining hull value are moot since this is a liability only policy. I have the policy in case my Legal Eagle is somehow connected with a hangar fire, somebody walks into the spinning prop, the plane impacts another aircraft on the ground (hand-propping gone very bad???), or some other scenario where damage occurs as a result of my plane damaging/injuring another plane or person.

I would not base my UL on an airport without the insurance even if the airport allowed it (most won't). To put my family's entire assets at risk over a $10,000 aircraft is unconscionable for me when insurance is readily available. The policy offers $1,000,000 liability coverage plus a personal injury payment. The USUA policy was the only one I could find for a non N-numbered aircraft. Applications are available online.

http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/Site/375021952/airsports.asp

I don't leave home without it. $400/year well-spent. ;)

Thanks responders for the info and opinions. I don't have an ultralight, but am looking at one as a possibility and agree with Sam for all the reasons he mentioned. Looks like there is at least one option available.

Don

1600vw
09-17-2013, 05:41 AM
Great deal here on an MXL with lots of mods.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quicksilver-MXL-Ultralight-Airplane-Ultralight-aircraft-Rotax-503-/290957094430?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item43be64ee1e&vxp=mtr

Buzz
09-18-2013, 04:44 AM
The policy offers $1,000,000 liability coverage plus a personal injury payment.
Sam-

What is the amount of the personal injury payment on the policy?

-Buzz

Buzz
09-18-2013, 10:28 PM
I consider a liability policy to be essential, especially if my aircraft is going to be anywhere near other planes or any people. I have the policy in case my Legal Eagle is somehow connected with a hangar fire, somebody walks into the spinning prop, the plane impacts another aircraft on the ground (hand-propping gone very bad???), or some other scenario where damage occurs as a result of my plane damaging/injuring another plane or person. One creates liability when someone is injured or property damaged to the degree that the damage is clearly by my negligence. Personally, I can't imagine a case where a hangar fire would be caused by some act of negligence with my ultralight. [I'm thinking a policy on my ultralight isn't going to pay off if I leave oil soaked rags in a corner that spontaneously combust.]

It is, indeed, negligent to not clear the prop area when starting my aircraft, leaving a running aircraft unattended so someone can walk into the prop, etc. However, because someone walks into my propeller doesn't necessarily make me liable for their injury. Aircraft operate on airports. Not taking due caution while walking around an airport and walking into a propeller is negligence.

As for not properly chocking an aircraft when hand-propping it or taking precautions so it does not get away from you, yes that would be negligent.


I would not base my UL on an airport without the insurance even if the airport allowed it (most won't). If Avemco only sold 400 policies, it stands to reason very few ultralights at the peak had insurance. It's not possible most airports require ultralights to have liability insurance when so few ultralight owners ever bought insurance. That would mean only the few insured ultralights ever operated from airports, which is not accurate.


To put my family's entire assets at risk over a $10,000 aircraft is unconscionable for me when insurance is readily available.The most expensive act of negligence is one that injures another. I believe the chance of me injuring someone through an act of negligence with my single seat ultralight if I take proper precautions is remote.

However, I would like to find out how much personal injury insurance the $400 a year is buying, as there is no information on their application as to the amount of personal injury coverage one is buying.

If one is operating on an airport where there are a lot of million dollar jets taxing around and you are afraid of running into one with your ultralight and causing a $250,000 ding, I guess you need $1,000,000 of property liability to protect all your family's assets. Again, I'm trying to figure out where I could so something negligent with my ultralight that would make me liable for $1,000,000 of property damage.

The real focus should be how much personal injury coverage of others the $400 is buying.

[By the way, anyone concerned about protecting their family should check their life insurance policies carefully. My term life insurance through Transamerica is worthless if I am killed flying an ultralight. It's an exclusion in the policy.]

My thoughts

-Buzz

Sam Buchanan
09-19-2013, 04:03 AM
One creates liability when someone is injured or property damaged to the degree that the damage is clearly by my negligence.

If you live in a world where you are incapable of making a mistake, or nobody is capable of falsely accusing you of negligence, and defending yourself against a non-valid lawsuit won't cost you anything, then sure, skip the liability insurance if you wish.

It is a personal choice. I choose to be insured.

And if I taxi into your plane and damage it, you will be glad I was insured. :)