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View Full Version : Best ultralight to accumulate flight hours for under3K



Lawrence
07-30-2013, 03:23 PM
Hello, I am almost done training to become a private pilot and am looking for a way to build the flight hours needed for higher ratings when I am done. I could never afford to rent a plane for hundreds of hours, but my instructor informed me that hours logged in ultralights can be counted towards those ratings, although he doesn't know a lot about ultralights himself. So I am basically looking for the best ultralight that I can build or buy within my admittedly very small budget. I would like to be able to say that I built it myself, but I don't have the experience to build something too complicated from scratch. I live in South Jersey so it needs to comply with FAR 103 so I can take off and land from the farm next door, unless someone knows of a way I would be allowed to do that with a two seater. It needs to have folding wings so that it can be easily stored and transported, and it would also be nice if I could get something that goes close to the maximum 55 knots so that I could log some cross country time without staying overnight... I know this is a really tall order, I am trying to do a lot with very little money or experience. But I know that if there is anyone that knows how this could be possible, they are probably lurking around here somewhere. Any advice or experience will be greatly appreciated.

zaitcev
07-30-2013, 05:32 PM
According to Ron Levy, back in 2005,

FAA Order 8700.1, Volume 2, Chapter 1, page 1-46 and 1-47, paragraph 9.B. states, in its entirety, that:

“B. Logging Time. Unless the vehicle is type certificated as an aircraft in a category listed in FAR § 61.5(b)(1) or as an experimental aircraft, or otherwise holds an airworthiness certificate, flight time acquired in such a vehicle may not be used to meet requirements of FAR Part 61 for a certificate or rating or to meet the recency of experience requirements.”

In the same time, FAR 61.52 referred to the use of aeronautical experience obtained in an ultralight before January 31, 2012. Note that 2007 and 2008 were between these two dates (e.g. various cut-off dates for the SP transition).

Anyhow, it seems to me that you can't do what you plan.

Also, 3,000 dollars for an ultralight, that's a good one. Think about 9,000, if you're lucky, for a Quicksilver with Hirth F-33.

Lawrence
07-30-2013, 05:52 PM
Ok thank you for letting me know about that regulation, my instructor told me he didn't know much about ultralights and that is why I came here. So is there any aircraft that I could use to log hours in New Jersey that I could take off and land away from an offical runway, or would getting it certified as an experimental aircraft mean that it now had to use a runway in New Jersey? As for finding an ultralight for less than $3,000, here is one for $750.00, I would need to do some stuff to it but it would still come out to far less than $3,000. My only concern would be weather something this cheap could be completely reliable, and it would also probably be pretty slow. http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_800301_Weedhopper+Model+C+Ultralight+.h tml

martymayes
07-30-2013, 09:27 PM
I'm curious with what's up with N. Jersey aviation rules? You can't take off or land a plane unless it's on a runway?

Lawrence
07-31-2013, 09:52 AM
To the best of my understanding, individual states are not allowed to change the FAA's in flight regulations, but as soon as you touch the ground, then they have control over you again. So New Jersey has made a bunch of regulations like this without having much real understanding of aviation, I guess just because they can. They have made the same rule for helicopters and sea planes, so now it is difficult to even land a sea plane in New Jersey because there are hardly any sea ports. I have been trying very hard to find some way around this so I don't have to transport my plane to an airport every time I want to fly, when I live right next door to a big open farm.

1600vw
07-31-2013, 12:27 PM
To the best of my understanding, individual states are not allowed to change the FAA's in flight regulations, but as soon as you touch the ground, then they have control over you again. So New Jersey has made a bunch of regulations like this without having much real understanding of aviation, I guess just because they can. They have made the same rule for helicopters and sea planes, so now it is difficult to even land a sea plane in New Jersey because there are hardly any sea ports. I have been trying very hard to find some way around this so I don't have to transport my plane to an airport every time I want to fly, when I live right next door to a big open farm.

And people ask what killed aviation. Laws like this and the people whom come up with them and those whom vote for them and those whom enforce them, that has killed aviation in America.

Start a petition to get this changed. There is a website for this called change dot org or something. Its time to get proactive about aviation before this generation is the last to enjoy the freedom of flying small EAB airplanes and PPC, trikes and such.

I will sign it.....

1600vw
07-31-2013, 12:41 PM
Why not buy yourself a EAB. Something with a VW engine that burn just a few gallons an hr. You can pick these up all day for 4000 - 6000 bucks. I know of a really nice one with a 1/2 vw for under 4000, just built.
Myself I would stay away from the 2 strokes and stick with a 4 stroke. They do not cost as much to operate as a 2 stroke, just one positive, I could list more but why?

Just my 2 cents, get a good EAB, condition inspection are cheap at least compared to Certified GA airplanes. Here at 3IS5 we are getting ready to start offering these at 250 bucks. The owner will be hands on in this, We even offer housing to stay in while this condition inspection is being done, but this is another story.

EAB not an Ultralight is what you want.

cluttonfred
07-31-2013, 12:54 PM
Another thing you might do is to find out what it takes to register a grass strip as a private airfield. In terms of budget aircraft, the thing to do is to join your local EAA Chapter and start asking around about neglected planes in the back of a hangar or unfinished projects. Then you invest your own time and elbow grease and whatever money you can, bit by bit, to bring the plane back to flying condition. $3,000 is awfully low, but you never know. You could certainly get an unfinished project or an engineless airframe for that price. Single-seaters, in particular, can often be had for a bargain price. That, IMHO, is the way to get your own plane on a budget.

Lawrence
07-31-2013, 03:34 PM
Thank you for the suggestions, I will definately be joining EAA Chapter 216 for their next meeting on August 13 (God help whoever get's stuck talking to me for three hours...). But if i were to buy and fix up one of these FAR 103 ultralights I see here on Barnstormers, and then get it regestered as an experimental aircraft, is anyone familiar enough with New Jersey's laws to know if I would still be allowed to take off and land without a runway? Or would regestering them as an EAB make them a full airplane, and therefore subject to that set of laws? I would love to get a spot on that farm regestered as a runway, but the unused parts of it vary from year to year and I couldn't ask them to just not use a big spot on their farm every year...
http://www.barnstormers.com/Ultralight,%20$+5000+%26+Under%20Classifieds.htm

zaitcev
07-31-2013, 08:38 PM
You can pick these up all day for 4000 - 6000 bucks. I know of a really nice one with a 1/2 vw for under 4000, just built.

Sorry, but I do not believe in such magic. A new E-AB Kolb just out of Phase 1, with a 582, goes for $13k at best, more like $16k. You may know a builder personally who would let you on a deal like that, but this is much below market price.

I can imagine a well-beaten MX for that price. Or, actually, almost anything that's well-beaten. There's also an ad for a Minimax at Barnstormers right now. But I highly doubt it's airworthy. And nothing in that range is going to have a 1/2 WV, except a Legal Eagle, maybe.

1600vw
07-31-2013, 09:22 PM
Sorry, but I do not believe in such magic. A new E-AB Kolb just out of Phase 1, with a 582, goes for $13k at best, more like $16k. You may know a builder personally who would let you on a deal like that, but this is much below market price.

I can imagine a well-beaten MX for that price. Or, actually, almost anything that's well-beaten. There's also an ad for a Minimax at Barnstormers right now. But I highly doubt it's airworthy. And nothing in that range is going to have a 1/2 WV, except a Legal Eagle, maybe.

Check this out..I sold this....I purchased it for 4000 bucks. The first video is in stock forum. The second is my modified form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMa-4kxBko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGro7gJfy8

I purchased this for 4500 bucks in flying condition like the other airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl6Afk9iuQ

I know where there is a brand new just built Rag wing with a 1/2 vw for under 4000. But I bet you would not believe that either, and its one nice airplane.

martymayes
07-31-2013, 09:22 PM
But if i were to buy and fix up one of these FAR 103 ultralights I see here on Barnstormers, and then get it regestered as an experimental aircraft

Lawrence, there's no practical way to buy an FAR 103 ultralight vehicle and register it as an experimental aircraft. Also, there's not a lot of flying airplanes for sale for $3k. Even if there was, you still need another $3k every yr to own and fly it.

I feel your pain. Flying is expensive but there are some practical ways to fly relatively inexpensively. Become a fractional owner. Offer to be a safety pilot so you can log the time when the other pilot is under the hood, etc. It will come together.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 05:45 AM
Lawrence, there's no practical way to buy an FAR 103 ultralight vehicle and register it as an experimental aircraft. Also, there's not a lot of flying airplanes for sale for $3k. Even if there was, you still need another $3k every yr to own and fly it.

I feel your pain. Flying is expensive but there are some practical ways to fly relatively inexpensively. Become a fractional owner. Offer to be a safety pilot so you can log the time when the other pilot is under the hood, etc. It will come together.

Marty with all do respect I do not see where you get your numbers. The last video I posted is of the airplane I fly today. She cost me under 5 grand, I have owned her going on three years and in that 3 years I have not stuck 3 grand in her. Cheapest flying around, not going anywhere but you are in the air. But you are not going anywhere in an Ultralight either.
If it cost 3 grand a year to fly my airplane I would not be flying. That is just to rich for my blood, my pockets are not that deep.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 05:52 AM
This airplane is for sale...3500 bucks.

mbond
08-01-2013, 05:55 AM
Don't forget, there is a lot of Class B airspace in and around New Jersey. A lot of airspace around there under the mode c veils.

cluttonfred
08-01-2013, 06:25 AM
To clarify some of the back and forth, you cannot buy a factory-made ultralight and then register as an experimental, amateur built plane with an N-number. However you can build your own ultralight from a kit and then apply to N-number it as an experimental, amateur built plane. The fact that it could also be considered an ultralight has no bearing--that does not prevent you from declaring it to the FAA as an airplane, it just allows you to fly it legally without doing so. In theory, if you bought an amateur-built ultralight second-hand, and could document the amateur build, then you might also be able to N-number that, but that would be a tougher sell to the FAA, I think. And once it's registered with an N-number, it's an airplane, not an ultralight, so it can't go back and you need a license to fly it. At least, that's my understanding of the whole question.

martymayes
08-01-2013, 07:12 AM
Marty with all do respect I do not see where you get your numbers.
If it cost 3 grand a year to fly my airplane I would not be flying.

I'll get out my crayon and we can work out the annual cost. I think you'll be thankful you don't live in N.J. when it's over. Just finding a place to park the plane when it's not flying will likely exceed $3k/yr.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 07:56 AM
I'll get out my crayon and we can work out the annual cost. I think you'll be thankful you don't live in N.J. when it's over. Just finding a place to park the plane when it's not flying will likely exceed $3k/yr.

Here in the midwest we have it nice I guess. Hangar rent for under 100 bucks a month, heck I pay under 50 bucks month. One reason I stay here now. I could move and would like to move but try and find a hangar for this price is hard.

As for Condition Inspections we here at 3is5 are getting ready to offer these for 250 bucks. The owner will be hands on in this, we even offer housing for a small fee while this is being done. We also will be doing Annual Inspections at a very reasonable price again with the owner having the option of being hands on and working beside the A&P. This will be coming later after we start the Condition Inspections for EAB.

We are also gearing up for Sport Pilot Training program. It's still in the early stages. Doing all this in the name of helping another aviator in keeping the cost down so one can afford to fly.

Kinda what the topic is about, how to get in the air and stay in the air for a low cost. If we all work together like the aviators of yesteryear we will all be ahead in the end. We need to get back to the grassroots of aviation.

Remember maintaining a EAB is a lot cheaper then a certified airplane. A lot cheaper, but if you register an ultralight as an AB now you must do yearly Condition Inspections and the cost of owning the ultralight went up yearly not to mention you lost the freedom that Far 103 offers you. I just don't see why one would do it when a EAB can be had for the same amount. If you are already Certified as a SP or PP why not fly a EAB to keep cost low. Even the Ultralight needs a hangar. Some hangar in a trailer but look at the rash they get from that and then you are always putting together and taking apart.

Just my 2 cents.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 08:02 AM
So I guess if you want an airplane around the 3 grand range and keep the cost low yearly, like under 1000 bucks you need to move is what Marty is saying. But in a nicer way. Sometimes I am blunt.

martymayes
08-01-2013, 08:49 AM
So I guess if you want an airplane around the 3 grand range and keep the cost low yearly, like under 1000 bucks you need to move is what Marty is saying. But in a nicer way. Sometimes I am blunt.

No, I'm not saying that at all. Since everyone can't live in Candy Land, my suggestion was to explore other "tried and true" methods of low(er) cost flying.

10 people can buy a C-150 for $20k. That would be $2k each for the buy in (partly recovered when you sell the share), which fits the OP's budget (with money left over). Maybe $150 a month to cover the fixed costs, $50/hr for flying. Then one can fly as safety pilot for someone under the hood and both can log flying time. That's about the lowest cost loggable time I know of because it's FREE! Everyone can pitch in labor on maintenance and inspections, washing and vacuuming. Have the social aspect, which encourages more flying. It's all good.

Individual ownership is usually NOT the lowest cost method of flying/building time.
If someone is spending less than $1000 annually on their flying budget, they are not flying very much, no matter where they live.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 09:30 AM
No, I'm not saying that at all. Since everyone can't live in Candy Land, my suggestion was to explore other "tried and true" methods of low(er) cost flying.

10 people can buy a C-150 for $20k. That would be $2k each for the buy in (partly recovered when you sell the share), which fits the OP's budget (with money left over). Maybe $150 a month to cover the fixed costs, $50/hr for flying. Then one can fly as safety pilot for someone under the hood and both can log flying time. That's about the lowest cost loggable time I know of because it's FREE! Everyone can pitch in labor on maintenance and inspections, washing and vacuuming. Have the social aspect, which encourages more flying. It's all good.

Individual ownership is usually NOT the lowest cost method of flying/building time.
If someone is spending less than $1000 annually on their flying budget, they are not flying very much, no matter where they live.


I would join this club myself.

Sorry if you believe Illinois is candy land. I guess if you are a politician it could be.

Wait am I on the EAA forum?.....Oh yes I am...EAA started out as..slow and low..what happened we all must go fast and high.

JimRice85
08-01-2013, 11:22 AM
I spend $5K annually if I never turn a prop between hangar and insurance.

martymayes
08-01-2013, 01:48 PM
I would join this club myself.

I did.


Sorry if you believe Illinois is candy land.

No specific state or city. There are few places where a hangar can be rented inexpensively. I used to live in one of those places. Now I don't. The Candy Land metaphor was that we can't all live at the airport where hangars are $50/month, nor is it always practical to pack up and move there.


EAA started out as..slow and low..what happened we all must go fast and high. A Cessna 150 doesn't go high or fast by any stretch. It's grass roots flying. If a group is interested in a low and slow/homebuilt airplane partenership, that can be done as well. There was a certain Fly Baby flying club or Story Special flying club that both operated since the Wright Bros. days. Can still be done today.

martymayes
08-01-2013, 01:51 PM
I spend $5K annually if I never turn a prop between hangar and insurance.

But the hourly rate decreases for each hour you fly......:)

JimRice85
08-01-2013, 02:27 PM
But the hourly rate decreases for each hour you fly......:)

But the total cost just goes higher... :)

pacerpilot
08-01-2013, 05:34 PM
Hello, I am almost done training to become a private pilot and am looking for a way to build the flight hours needed for higher ratings when I am done. I could never afford to rent a plane for hundreds of hours, but my instructor informed me that hours logged in ultralights can be counted towards those ratings, although he doesn't know a lot about ultralights himself. So I am basically looking for the best ultralight that I can build or buy within my admittedly very small budget. I would like to be able to say that I built it myself, but I don't have the experience to build something too complicated from scratch. I live in South Jersey so it needs to comply with FAR 103 so I can take off and land from the farm next door, unless someone knows of a way I would be allowed to do that with a two seater. It needs to have folding wings so that it can be easily stored and transported, and it would also be nice if I could get something that goes close to the maximum 55 knots so that I could log some cross country time without staying overnight... I know this is a really tall order, I am trying to do a lot with very little money or experience. But I know that if there is anyone that knows how this could be possible, they are probably lurking around here somewhere. Any advice or experience will be greatly appreciated.

Lawrence, welcome to the EAA. I've read your post/question and have some advice you might find enlightening. First, read the regs. As a private pilot you are responsible for knowing them. If you're close to your check ride you should know them/how to access them. NEVER use advice or "gut feelings" etc. from others about the regs-especially if they admit not being familiar. As to your original question. No, you can't log hours in non certificated aircraft; i.e. ultralights. However, your $3000 will go a lot further than some on the forum might lead you to believe towards an airplane. Check out Barnstormers.com, you'll find many airplanes (not ultralights-they're not airplanes) for under $10000. I have bought several planes in the last few years and never paid more than $9000. My current flyer was $7500 as was the plane I had before that. By the way, it's for sale again on Barnstormers. Both are great airplanes and, they're two place to boot! My wife has two strict rules for me to follow when considering an airplane. They are as follows: The plane must be 2 place. It must be complete or very nearly so/It must fly (hence the complete thing). I find airplanes that fit these rules all the time. My last Taylorcraft was $6000 and yes, I flew it home. I wish I hadn't sold it to a guy in Australia. To summarize; save up a few more bucks, stick to real airplanes (certificated) and, buy a two place (you'll need it). Don't rule out airplanes with car engine conversions or taildraggers either. As for the $3000 a year upkeep...eh, maybe. I don't spend nearly that much. Find a buddy to rent hangar space from, smooze the local AI for condition inspections and, do all the work on your plane you can. There's lots of help here so just ask! Good luck.

1600vw
08-01-2013, 06:34 PM
Pacerpilot: This is what I was trying to say. But I do not agree with you on the certified part. If you are flying an Auto conversion such as what I fly why does the airplane have to be certified? You can log hrs in a EAB with an auto conversion and not have nearly the cost on your yearly inspections. An Annual inspection cost a lot more then a Condition Inspection. If one wants to fly for cheap just to fly an EAB is the cheapest way to go, and they do come in two place if that is your flavor.

1600vw
08-02-2013, 05:19 AM
Marty you are right a 150 does not go fast or high, but it sure does fly circles around my EAB. Does not come much slower then this.
You say not everyone can move, that is your decision. Do not knock me because you believe the grass is greener over here on my side of the fence. You know not what you talk about. All the education in the world will not help you here.

martymayes
08-02-2013, 07:34 AM
You know not what you talk about. All the education in the world will not help you here.

Perhaps. But when I needed to build time for more ratings (the OP's only objective), I figured out a way to do it without moving and without buying a plane. I've also observed enough aviation over the past 45 yrs to know what works, what doesn't, what's realistic, and what isn't.

pacerpilot
08-02-2013, 05:00 PM
Pacerpilot: This is what I was trying to say. But I do not agree with you on the certified part. If you are flying an Auto conversion such as what I fly why does the airplane have to be certified? You can log hrs in a EAB with an auto conversion and not have nearly the cost on your yearly inspections. An Annual inspection cost a lot more then a Condition Inspection. If one wants to fly for cheap just to fly an EAB is the cheapest way to go, and they do come in two place if that is your flavor.

Not "certified" as in factory planes- "certificated" as in any airplane that has an airworthiness cert. Big difference. Our EAB's have Airworthiness certs, ultralights don't, that's all I was referring to. But you're right about the experimental aspect. I was trying to convey that to Lawrence-especially the two place part. It's just too dang hard to get dual instruction in a single place!

1600vw
08-02-2013, 05:28 PM
Not "certified" as in factory planes- "certificated" as in any airplane that has an airworthiness cert. Big difference. Our EAB's have Airworthiness certs, ultralights don't, that's all I was referring to. But you're right about the experimental aspect. I was trying to convey that to Lawrence-especially the two place part. It's just too dang hard to get dual instruction in a single place!

I thought by the post he wanted to built time not take instructional flight lessons. Just to fly and build time at a lower cost. No instruction needed from my take on the post.

pacerpilot
08-02-2013, 09:19 PM
I thought by the post he wanted to built time not take instructional flight lessons. Just to fly and build time at a lower cost. No instruction needed from my take on the post.

If he's going for further ratings he will. Besides, why would you buy a single place plane when you can buy two place ones for the same price? Far more utility and practicality in a two place; bi-annual's, further instruction, safety pilot, take your dog for a ride, etc. "Dog is my Copilot"-see attached pic.