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avinuts
07-03-2013, 09:46 AM
I've been thinking, which is always a dangerous thing....
This year the Honor Flight is comprised of Viet Nam Veterans, this appears to be the new generation that is "coming of age".
Wouldn't it be a GREAT tribute to them and provide not only a good show, but also perhaps a good educational opportunity for those young people who aren't old enough to remember to have a "specifically" Viet Nam Veterans Day at EAA Oshkosh 2014?
Please picture this; a Chinook helicopter with a Huey on both sides doing a formation fly-by, a Cobra, Phantom and Skyhawk jet, a Carribou, Mohawk, Bird Dog and maybe a SkyRaider.
I believe that there are flying history museum / groups in Ohio and Georgia that do re-enactments and have a considerable amount aviation equipment available.
So, what do you think?

Respectfully,
Mike

Rick Rademacher
07-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Good Idea!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Lycm-vNI4

Bob Dingley
07-03-2013, 08:03 PM
Good idea Mike. It would not be justice if one of the Hueys was not an air ambulance "Dustoff". 396 has been restored with 498th (AA) markings and is based at Grissom AFB in Ind.

Bob

Bill Greenwood
07-04-2013, 09:45 AM
You may like helicopters, but otherwise celebrating the Vietnam War is like the U S Army celebrating the Battle of Little Big Horn or Galveston celebrating the 1900 hurricane.

Mayhemxpc
07-04-2013, 11:50 AM
Ummm.....

Bill, my regiment in the Army was the 7th Cavalry and we DO celebrate Little Big Horn Day (called Garry Owen Day) every June 25th.

Christopher T. Mayer
Colonel, 7th U.S. Cavalry (Retired)

Bob Dingley
07-04-2013, 01:33 PM
You may like helicopters, but otherwise celebrating the Vietnam War is like the U S Army celebrating the Battle of Little Big Horn or Galveston celebrating the 1900 hurricane.

The only thing that I can humbly suggest is whenever a war bird flies over, you look at the ground and plug your ears. Somedays only the ugliest bird on the flight line will get the job done and get you home. I won my battles every day.

Hats off to you Col Mayer, My #2 son served with the 11th ACR.

Dustoff 100

avinuts
07-04-2013, 01:35 PM
You may like helicopters, but otherwise celebrating the Vietnam War is like the U S Army celebrating the Battle of Little Big Horn or Galveston celebrating the 1900 hurricane.

It's not about a celebration, but rather a "tribute". No one should like war, but everyone should honor the men and women who fight wars. No more about justification, but honor, duty and country. It happened! and anyone who does not learn from history or try to pass history along to following generations is destined to relive it. Yes, we owe all veterans, including those who fought in the Viet Nam War...

Mayhemxpc
07-04-2013, 06:57 PM
Absolutely need a Dustoff in the mix. It would be really nice if there could be a Dustoff flight, representing the equipment from different conflicts. Maybe, if we are talking next year, we might be able to convince the WIANG or ILANG to bring a UH-60 Medevac. In Iraq, the stats were that if you could keep the soldier alive until he could be loaded on the Dustoff, there was a 95% survival rate. THAT is something to be honored.

avinuts
07-05-2013, 06:33 AM
1) Sky Soldiers Demonstration Team
Army Aviation Heritage Foundation
Hampton, GA 30228
2) American Huey 369 Museum
Peru, In
3) Collings Foundation
F-4D

We understand that part of EAA 2013 there will be a Huey participation relative to the Medal of Honor recipient based at FonDuLac airport and giving rides....

Bill Greenwood
07-05-2013, 11:18 AM
Col. Mayer, does the army really celebrate that on June 25, the day Custer's command was wiped out?

By the way I was once at Ft. Riley, Kansas for a WWII celebration, and shortly after went to Mt. Rushmore not far from Little Big Horn.
One thing I noticed is how far apart they are. Custer sure went a long way on horseback looking for trouble, which he found.

Mayhemxpc
07-05-2013, 08:42 PM
If you haven't been in the military, much less combat, it is probably something beyond your understanding. (Some people do. My wife chimed in, saying that OF COURSE we celebrate Garry Owen Day!) The French Foreign Legion commemorates Camerone Day, for a battle in which one of its regiments refused terms of surrender and was wiped out. The Swiss Guard commemorates the day their soldiers died to the last man defending the Pope. Heck, even Cinco de Mayo is actually the commemoration of a Mexican defeat to the French.

Yes, it is a day of parades, games of a military nature, songs, sometimes a ball or a dining-in, and lots of fun all around. It starts, however, with a retelling of the battle, a listing of the names of the men who fell, and a commemoration of all of the soldiers of the different squadrons of the regiment who have fallen in battle...too many to name individually: Indian Wars, Mexican Expedition, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq (both times).

Aside from that, the the "command" was not wiped out on June 25, 1876. The regiment suffered a little more than 1/3 casualties (which certainly constitutes a defeat in any army at any time.) The detachment that Custer was with was killed to the last man, but the other two columns survived. The regiment departed on the campaign from Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory, where the 7th was stationed at that time, not Fort Riley.

See notes above. We don't celebrate war. We commemorate the honor and valor of those of us who have gone before. And DON'T start on whatever you think you know about Custer. Just face it, you were wrong to try to cast any dirt on the memory of those who have fought in ANY of our nation's wars and to attempt to deny them the honor they deserve.

Let's move on.

JimRice85
07-05-2013, 08:55 PM
If you haven't been in the military, much less combat, it is probably something beyond your understanding. (Some people do. My wife chimed in, saying that OF COURSE we celebrate Garry Owen Day!) The French Foreign Legion commemorates Camerone Day, for a battle in which one of its regiments refused terms of surrender and was wiped out. The Swiss Guard commemorates the day their soldiers died to the last man defending the Pope. Heck, even Cinco de Mayo is actually the commemoration of a Mexican defeat to the French.

Yes, it is a day of parades, games of a military nature, songs, sometimes a ball or a dining-in, and lots of fun all around. It starts, however, with a retelling of the battle, a listing of the names of the men who fell, and a commemoration of all of the soldiers of the different squadrons of the regiment who have fallen in battle...too many to name individually: Indian Wars, Mexican Expedition, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq (both times).

Aside from that, the the "command" was not wiped out on June 25, 1876. The regiment suffered a little more than 1/3 casualties (which certainly constitutes a defeat in any army at any time.) The detachment that Custer was with was killed to the last man, but the other two columns survived. The regiment departed on the campaign from Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory, where the 7th was stationed at that time, not Fort Riley.

See notes above. We don't celebrate war. We commemorate the honor and valor of those of us who have gone before. And DON'T start on whatever you think you know about Custer. Just face it, you were wrong to try to cast any dirt on the memory of those who have fought in ANY of our nation's wars and to attempt to deny them the honor they deserve.

Let's move on.

^^^This^^^

Hooah!

Jim Rice
LTC
US Army, Retired

Bill Greenwood
07-05-2013, 11:12 PM
Mayhem, 5 companies out of 7 the started out under Custer, that is all the men who took part in the main attack were wiped out. Some of the other 2 had losses also.
I didn't "cast any dirt on the memory of those".
History deals with such matters and it is pretty well agreed the Custer"s bad leadership led to so many deaths of his men.An example is refusing to listen to warnings by experienced Indian scouts.

As for where Custer started out. well I went to a fort on an Army base which I thought was Ft. Riley, Kansas, and we visited the house on base that Custer and his wife lived in before he went to the Little Big horn. This was perhaps 15 years ago and we were there to honor my friends Father in Law who took part in the Normandy invasion. I may be wrong about the name, maybe it was at Ft. Leavenworth where Custer certainly was in 1867-8, and had a trial there, but I am certain we flew east from Colorado and did not go to the Dakotas. Also in researching the song, Garyowen, it says Custer took command of the 7th cavalry at Ft. Riley.

And yes I was in the military, though not with Custer. It did not change my ability to read or think. LIke many other young people back then, I accepted the general premise that military service was my duty, just like my Brother and Grandfather, so I joined.

And one of the greatest things we could do for our young men and now even women in the military is value them highly and avoid putting their lives at risk unless it is really warranted. Since you seem to think combat gives you a special wisdom, I'd like to hear exactly what you think was so positive about the Vietnam War, and worth over almost 300,000 U S casualties, not to mention a million or two of the Vietnamese? What did we gain from it?

And the value of a war, the right or wrong of it, has nothing to do with the valor of how any soldier fought. Wars bring out courage in soldiers and both sides often fight with bravery. That alone does not make a cause right any more than it did when men fought to preserve slavery or for Hitler. In the case of the Custer campaign, it was basically to steal Indian lands since gold had been found in the Black Hills. And that is not just my opinion or claim, it took a century, but finally U S courts ruled that we had stolen the land from the Sioux. The ruling gave a large financial amount for the Indians, but they won't take it as they want their land back.

avinuts
07-06-2013, 07:01 AM
Dialogue is always a great thing. It makes people think. Certainly, everyone is entitled to thier oppinion, right or wrong. The subject of this post which is open for discussion remains to be a "tribute" to those who fought in a particular war / conflict in our Nations history. What makes men and women fight during adversity? Why is there not total caos during battle? Why is there no mass desertion? I am sure that the troops under Custer probably didn't really want to be there any more than many who didn't want to be in Viet Nam under the policies of President Johnson. But they were, and did thier jobs. Military people don't make wars, they fight them...
War is H@#L ! Men and women who do thier duty deserve recognition for thier personal sacrifice up to and including death. Ignoring history will not make it go away. It is fact. Embrace it for what it was and learn from it. What better way than from the words of those who experienced it first hand. A "tribute" to those who fight is not a glorification of war and the two should never be confussed. You are entitled to your view of politics, but don't get into a discussion on whether people in the military should or should not be Honored! My original post for having such an event stands. Regardless of where this goes, THANK YOU to all military people past, present and FUTURE !

Bill Greenwood
07-06-2013, 03:51 PM
Avinuts, you sound like a nice guy.
1st. Many people talk about freedom of speech/press and everyone having an opinion, but they often act as only opinions they agree with are ok.
2nd. You wrote "military people don't make wars they fight them". Just being in the military should not make one only a follower of whoever is starting or pushing for war. They should also be citizens and people and Fathers and Mothers.
One of the awful things about some wars and Vietnam in particlar, is that the public is hoodwinked, even lied to, in order to start the war, and continue it. Those pushing for it know that all too often that parents will send their most precious thing, their Sons and now even Daughters to die or be maimed for some ill defined scheme if you can make it sound patriotic.Back then we had the Tonkin Gulf resolution as an excuse to start the war, in our generation we have "WMD", which were claimed to be weapons of mass destruction but what more trully could be called words of much deception.

What if we had national vote, back around 1963 or so, and the question was simply: "Shall we start a war in Vietnam that will last 15 years, cost us 58,000 men killed ,and a quarter million wounded and kill a million or two Vietnamese, and cost not only $billions of your tax dollars ( I don't have that figure) as well as lost respect for our nation around most of the free world? And by the way, we lose the war in the end. And that is not to even mention some of our men who sat in N V prison camps for 5 or 6 years while the military and their leaders just kept the war going.
How would that vote go? Or if you could have it now?

You mention "politics" and LBJ. I wasn't writing anything about "politics" , not about any candidate or any election. However, since you brought up LBJ who did not start the war but certainly escalated it, let us not forget Nixon would carried it on for more years and more men lost,as well as civilians killed here at home.

3." You say ignoring history will not make it go away". I strongly agree, but many military people act like it is unpatriotic to face what a disaster Vietnam was and to resolve to not let false leaders like LBJ and especially Nixon lead us down some path like that again.

4. And my view of this war is not just my "opinion" it is what the overwhelming majority of historians and as polls now show what the majority of Americans now know about this war.

Rick Rademacher
07-06-2013, 08:43 PM
From my prospective, the U.S. military didn’t lose the Viet Nam war. U.S soldiers were pulled out by political leaders to let the poorly equipped and poorly lead South Vietnamese soldier lose the war. The current conflict in Afghanistan may be a repeat.
Are you suggesting that we who served in Viet Nam be forgotten again because we served in a highly controversial war? What about those serving in Afghanistan and those that served in Iraq? What about the Korean War vets. Do they get the same treatment?
I would hope that all who served our country in the military with honor would be recognized for their service. To give Viet Nam veterans special treatment once at Oshkosh would mean something to me and others who served this nation in that conflict.

Dave S
07-07-2013, 05:30 AM
Bill, I understand your points, but I disagree with your premises. The wave of appreciation we show our troops now days is admirable but the military members from the Vietnam and post Vietnam era deserve the exact same respect and admiration. Those of us who served during that period (I flew antisubmarine missions from 76-84) did not get the cheering crowds and thank you's we earned by putting our lives on the line so you and all American could enjoy the freedoms we defended. As for the Vietnam war, historians are starting to piece together how America's anti-communism conflicts, including Vietnam, played a key role in stemming the spread of communism and ultimately ending the Soviet Union.

Bill Greenwood
07-07-2013, 06:12 AM
Rick, you and I look at the Vietnam War, and seem to see the opposite things. I see the suffering and the lies, ("remember the light at the end of the tunnel") and you see the effort of the individual soldier, and maybe even some "valor".

Let me give 2 somewhat parrallel cases.

My Son is a lawyer, he worked like a slave to pass law school and the bar, even after two consussions from accidents. I am very proud of him. He has been a prosecutor, deputy District Attorney, and is moving to private practice. I hope he is financially sucessful, but if he does it representing polluiting chemical companies, or organized crime, or mass murders, I won't be bragging on how clever and determined he is.

War is like chemotherapy. It is awful, and almost kills the patient while trying to kill the tumor. It should be used only when warranted. No good doctor would give it to a healthy person just for the experience or to make a profit for the drug company.
Even WWII, which most people would agree was a "just war" in the sense that we really were fighting two evils and we were in the right; still resulted in 50 million deaths and many of them were civilians, like at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War makes otherwise decent people do horrible things. We are currently condemning Syria for using chemical warfare, but we did it in Nam with agent Orange.

The invasion of Iraq and Afghan, came to a large extent from the 9-11 attacks, or at least that is the basis the war was sold to the public on. However, we have lost about twice as many dead and ten times as many maimed in these wars than the 9-11 attacks and the war goes on and on. Somebody needs to say, wait a minute, less use some logic and not just emotion and propaganda here.

You mention Korea, and while I served during Vietnam and have researched it, I don't know much about Korea. It was a nasty place to fight, but we didn't lose the war, we got a tie or better at least. We don't control the North , but they don't control the South.
Why don't you start a topic on Korea or the other wars and see what comments you get.

And I'd like to hear about your service, when you went in, under which President , where you served, what you did and most of all, what you knew about Vietnam before you went in? Did you know that after WWII , the U S opposed a democratic election that would have united the north and south, because they did not want the socialist Ho Chi Minh to win?

Bill Greenwood
07-07-2013, 08:03 AM
Dave, you have written politely to disagree and I will try to reply in kind.

1. I didn't write and never said that vets don't deserve recognition. What this topic started on was Vietnam era planes and the celebration of them at EAA, and I said I don't think hooray for that war is the right thing.

Can the vets be honored and not the war? That is a fine line, a grey area, not really my point. I went in the service in 69. I was never in danger, not in Nam, not in combat; all I risked and wasted was my time. I am glad I wasn't killed or wounded and I am even more glad that I never killed anyone else.
I am pretty sure that if I had been in at My Lai or other situations, I would have done the right thing. But, I guess way back in the corner of my mind, I have some doubt, I am not 100% certain that in the heat, anger, and fear of that situation and all the orders and peer pressure to do the wrong thing, that I might not have done something I would regret forever.
I don't feel that I served anything, I was traditional enough to think that somehow I needed to do my part and I did as required.
When they ask vets to stand for applause at the football games, I sure don't think they are talking to me.
The loss or risk I did feel was that shortly after joining I knew enough to know we probably were not going to win the war, and also that Nixon was not the kind of person that I wanted to be part of his his cause.
The shootings of unarmed college students at Kent State by army troops, and Jackson State, were major events for me. Here I was, a year or so out of college, and the military that I was part of was shooting students and Nixon making excuses for it.My Lai was the same type of thing, but on a much larger and worse scale. I wasn't some morale leader, just a normal person, but I had some sense of decency and I knew right from wrong. I have a soldier that I admire, can't remember his name. He was a Black Sergeant from I believe Ala. He refused to shoot women and children at My Lai. He was just a normal guy, not a highly educated history or legal scholar. But he said afterwards that his Mother taught him right from wrong. There was also a helicopter pilot who was flying over and landed to try to help. Those are vets I'd like to meet.

Your claim that the Vietnam War somehow led to the faliure of Soviet Union is one I haven't heard before. I think Bernie Madoff or P.T Barnum would be envious of that one.

One of the most telling things I have read about the whole war was:
Imagine yourself as a young Russian military planner about 1960. You tell the Kremlin that you know how to lure a the US into the land war in Asia that Gen Ike warned about. This war will go on 15 years or so, cost the US $5 Trillion (in 2008 dollars), result in 58,000 U S dead and 5 times that many wounded, have most of the world look down on the US as the invader of a 3rd world country, and cause major unrest and hurt the economy in the US and eventual outing of 2 Presidents,end with an ignomius retreat off the embassy rooftop, and most of all do this without costing a single Russian soldier, only aid to N V.
If the Kemlin believed and followed this advice, the man would have become a hero of the Soviet. BUT WE DID ALL THIS TO OURSELVES, WIILINGLY AND REPEATEDELY.

And 40 years later you guys still try to come up with some ways to twist history.

The facts are we started a war with a 3rd rate backwards country in support of a corrupt dictatorship, and we lost. You may not want to say that, but you know it in your heart. And while you can find people at an airshow or military event that still will espouse the party line, polls of the general public show about 80% disapproval of the war.

The remaining 20%, just for interest ,is not far from the % that still smoke cigarettes.

And a small point, if you flew anti subs patrols, it wasn't Nam war service as even Nixon didn't claim Nam had any subs did they?

avinuts
07-07-2013, 10:48 AM
I am sorry that this post has taken the route that it did. That certainly was not my intention with the original post. Sometimes, I guess, good intentions get bad results. I am not so naive to think that everyone is always in agreement. Although, it appears that statistically there were five people that thought that it might not be a bad idea and one person that did. So again, my original post stands for evaluation. I don't want this to be a topic about personlities, but I do believe that there are personal issues that come to light. Perhaps less time should be spent writing at nausium and re-read the original and subsequent postings by me that indicate this is NOT about "a hooray for the war" but A TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT FOUGHT IT! Anyone who thinks that this thread should be about another issue, might consider starting thier own.

Dave S
07-07-2013, 02:09 PM
Bill, I make it a point to not argue on internet forums. We'll just have to agree to disagree. My service was post Vietnam. Our job was to detect, track, and if necessary, destroy Soviet nuclear missile submarines targeting the United States. I trust you slept soundly during those years. :)

Bob Dingley
07-07-2013, 04:22 PM
Mike, your post was the right thing. Don't think of apologizing since most agree with you. One dissenting voice burned up most of the bandwidth of this thread. And he even states that he wasn't there. When you get down to it, its about the people that WERE there! D@#&it. I met the best of the best.

Our flight medics come to mind. I still recall seeing "Doc"Redmond (from NJ) wallking off his ship and into the ER carrying a small girl who was in seizure & bleeding from a bitten tongue. He handed her off saying "she's got meningitus." then he wiped the blood from his face. He had given her CPR all the way home. There was Ted High the fourth. AKA "Doc Soul." The first thing I heard of him was when he used a sole surviving son regulation to get his dad First Sgt Ted High the third turned around and sent home as he arrived at his101st Div assignment.

Ted would get realy down when we lost a GI patient and he would unload on me. I could only listen and try to dig him out of his hole. After I got evaced home, a unit pilot called my hospital room to tell me that Doc Soul was gone. His ship had landed and he unplugged and bolted for the wounded. The ship had landed in a mine field.

My first unit's supply room had had run out M-16s. I was preparing for a field standby in an active area. I was resigning my self to having only the S&W .38 when someone suggested checking with this certain PFC flight medic. He was a concientious objecter. Turned out he had 3 wall lockers jammed full of exotic firearms that he had "liberated." He lent me something. BTW, I wish every one could see a flight medic take the rescue hoist control pendant in one hand and go outside and hang below the skids by his monkey strap to help a wounded soldier on the jungle penatrator get up throught the trees.

A mention was made of My Lai. .I was at Benning when we tried those guys. I was looking at one of my old maps couple of days ago and I focused on a village called Dak Son. It was attacked by two VC Battalions armed with flame throwers. No trials yet. The unknown Scout pilot at My lai had a name. Hugh "Buck" Thompson. He was a friend. He passed away half dozen years ago in the Lafayette,LA area. He was a Veterans Service Officer.

Many,many other heros. Too many to mention. I didn't meet any war criminals. Lets see. Bless all the gunship pilots for looking out for me and my friends. Lets not forget the USAF crews at Phan Rang AFB. Specialy Shadow 61 (AC-119G) of the 17th SOS. Many thanks. Oh yeah, The 20th SOS Green hornets. They live nearby at Hurlbert AFB these days.

Sorry for going motormouth and burning up the band width. Mike, Its a perfect idea. Now lets change the subject to airplanes. Dave S: I think the VP guys are neat. I grew up next door to NAS Brunswick and sometime caught hops there. I know what you did.

Bob.

Bill Greenwood
07-08-2013, 10:16 AM
Well, Bob we agree on one thing at least.

I couldn't recall his name, but Hugh Thompson was the helicopter pilot who was flying over My Lai and saw what was happening and twice landed to try to stop the shooting of civilians.
He then rescued and got about 10 out of the area.
His testimony is one of the reasons we know what happened there, and the coverup eventually was broken.

One can see how much opposition there is just on this forum to anyone like me who thinks it is important to speak out about the truth in something as critical as this.
It would be a lot more accepted if I was writing something like "who's better, M J or LeBron, or what's the best fighter?

You can imagine how hard it was for Thompson to land in the middle of scared, angry, armed men and try to stop a killing frenzy, and the criitsizm he must have faced.
I saw the headline when he passed away a few years ago, sadly of cancer at 62. You can easily look him up on Google. He was given medals, but 30 years later.

I never met him, but I'll bet his parents were very proud of their Son.

I wonder if we will ever see a helicopter at Oshkosh with his name or markings of the one he flew, and a storyboard for if?

Floatsflyer
07-08-2013, 10:22 AM
No matter your viewpoint, 3 things continue to be abundantly apparent:

1. Vietnam remains as divisive as ever 50 years later.

2. Old wounds run deep.

3. The biproduct and coping mechanism of a highly charged and controversial subject is, in some instances here, the rearing of the ugly head of revisionist history.

By all means, give tribute and recognition to those that had to take part in this horrible and misguided conflict. "Where have all the young men gone. Gone to soldiers everyone. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn."

JimRice85
07-08-2013, 12:28 PM
At least some folks still appreciate the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines for their service regardless of their agreement about the war. Too bad everyone can't.


http://www.upworthy.com/after-such-a-god-awful-war-this-moment-deserves-an-about-damn-time?c=ufb1

Zack Baughman
07-08-2013, 02:46 PM
This is just one opinion, but flying various warbirds of different eras does not mean that we as a society are honoring the killing of the enemy or the bombing of civilians or the right or wrong of why war occurs. We are instead honoring the veterans who, many times at no fault of their own, have been put into extraordinary circumstances. War is hell. Terrible things happen during war. At the same token, some amazing acts of bravery, fellowship, kindness, sacrifice and heroism take place. It seems to me that war brings out the best and worst in people.

Paying tribute to the veterans of the different eras whether it be WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq or Afghanistan, or any other conflict by flying/showcasing/talking about/etc. the warbirds that they flew is honoring all those aspects that are the best of people, while at the same time remembering the worst so as not to repeat it.

This is just a ridiculous example to prove a point, but your Spitfire Bill was designed as a killing machine. As beautiful as a Spit is to see fly and as wonderful as that Merlin sounds as one swoops by, it was above all developed to kill and destroy. My beloved Thunderbolt was a terrible killing machine, as was the P-51, the B-17, etc. etc. If all I thought about was the deaths caused by warbirds, they'd have no place in my life, but instead I love them for what they represent to me - the bravery and skill of the pilots and crew that flew them, the dedication and effort of the men and women who built them, and freedom that they represent (to me).

As the son of a Vietnam veteran proud of my father's service, I for one would be thrilled to see another Vietnam tribute flight during AirVenture. Just my $0.02...

Zack

Bill Greenwood
07-08-2013, 03:57 PM
Zack, I hope we are still friends, if not you can toss those eggs at me before they get boiled and deviled.
So let me try again to communicate.

Why do I write any of this? Why not put a photo up of the Spitfire and me in a flight suit. Most folks, those who have not been polluted by diesel fumes or oil dripping radials would pretty much be on my side, even though there is a big difference between a real fighter pilot and just someone who has been lucky enough to fly fighters. Why not just be one of the good old boys, share the kool aid, and have no stress? Believe me, I enjoy that as much as anyone. I like people and like to socialize at EAA. Why set myself up as a target?

BECAUSE I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO SPEAK OUT. I THINK IT IS OUR DUTY.

Now, I am not totally naive, I don't think a few paragraphs from me are going to cause Nixon or Westmorland or Lt. Calley to rise up and say they were wrong and ask forgiveness. Actually Lt. Calley has said that, and continues to, look it on Google.
But just maybe, someone will actually be open minded enough to read and consider the facts that I wrote, such as after 45 years despite all the military propaganda, the vast majority of our people consider that war wrong.

Notice that on this forum, all the other people disagree with me, but most of it is emotional. One man denigrated me for not being in the military or combat, but when I asked him to give me facts about positive things about this War, there was no reply.
In 40 or 50 years I have never heard any TRUTHFUL OR MEANINGFUL FACTS TO SUPPORT THIS WAR,and I have heard some top vets speak.
It is almost always, like you have said,that my Dad or my friend served well or even heroicaly; or that in some vague way we were fighting some bad guys.
And this war was not just a mistake to be quickly put right; it went on and on, 15 years, perhaps 2 million Vietnamese dead as well as ours.
I don't know details of your Dad's service, I am glad he returned safely. But many, many of our young people did not return as they left. I don't think he should have been sent there in the first place, and certainly not after the first few years.
Did you know that when LBJ took office he was given a secret study that said short of using nuclear weapons we were unlikely to win that war? He just ignored it and kept on sending young people to do what he had never done in WWII. After all it, some of his supporters made lots of money off the war.Nixon promised peace, but escalated the war when in office. He had a study that said many of the victims of bombing cities would be children, didn't interfere with his sleep at all.
There is also such a thing as giving witness in the religious sense. 70 years ago, smoking cigarettes was accepted, in restaurants, schools, etc, and smoke pouring out of factory chimneys was the picture on many stock certificates. Driving a car without your kids being in seat belts or after you'd have a few beers was the norm, and it's not now. There was a time, in my lifetime when some Americans were not welcome in hotels, restaurants, bus stations,pro baseball, even college football teams, or our military.
How did this change? Not by one person standing up and saying it's wrong, but if more and more people do, things can change over time.

Can you and EAA honor the vets without propagandizing in favor of the war? Maybe you can.

I am not trying to downplay or degrade anyone who did their best as a soldier there. It could have been me there. One of my good friends, Major Warner Giles, who flew to Oskosh with me a number of times, was a combat vet in Nam, gunships and F4s. Earl Ketchen flew 60 combat missions in Nam in A-6s, before he taught me to fly warbirds. I am sure he would have been with us at Osh if he had not been lost in a P-51 accident. Another pilot friend and EAA member flew Skyraiders there. He is a real gentleman a husband and Father, a nice, quite type of guy, except he has a good sense of humor and loves a good joke. I have not talked to him in any depth about his Nam service, on even much about Skyraiders, but once in a quiet moment he said, "I killed a lot of people." I didn't go into details, but he didn't sound happy or bragging about that.

But that is not what you wrote, "at the same time remembering the worst". Let's be straight, no act of helicopters or Skyraiders at an airshow is going to mention the worst or anything negative. It is all going to be as the Bob Dylan song says, "mostly saying hooray for our side". There isn't likely to be any signboard near any helicopter explaining what Maj. Hugh Tompson did at My Lai or his testimony before Congress.

And what did Avinuts write at the start of this topic? "Not only a good show, but also a GOOD EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY FOR THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO AREN'T OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER VIETNAM."

Yes, it has been a long time since the war, and many people, did not live through that era and they may not remember how bad it was, but I did and I know it was the worst thing I have seen our country do in my adult lifetime. We had sort of a smaller but parallel version of it in Iraq and there is always a danger of it happening again

Re Spitfires: If there is such a thing as a just or good war, then England against Hitler would be it. Churchill did not have to invent some big lie like WMD or Tonkin Gulf phantom attacks to start the war; there was no doubt that the Nazis attacked France and then England, and he didn't have to lie to keep the war going.
And if there is any such thing as a cleaner weapon , maybe Spitfires are it; they were designed as a defensive fighter to stop German attacks, they weren't designed to invade some 3rd world country.

Mayhemxpc
07-08-2013, 06:26 PM
Agree with Zack 100%.

As far as why I didn't respond again to Bill, well...Mark Twain's observation about arguing with certain people came to mind. That and (1) I thought the others said all that needed to be said, (2) this started down a path I thought inappropriate for the forum, and (3) I thought we got way off track for the original intent of this string.

So is the general (if not unanimous) agreement in this string that we should try to arrange such a memorial flight for next year?

-- Chris

Bill Greenwood
07-08-2013, 07:58 PM
Well Col. Mayer, after such a factual presentation of positive things about that War, how could I still have any doubts? Maybe I am completely mistaken as are my sources. Maybe we really won that war and Nixon was a pillar of honesty.
All the bad info probably came from the liberal media, anyway.

Floatsflyer
07-08-2013, 08:30 PM
At least some folks still appreciate the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines for their service regardless of their agreement about the war.

In addition to waving the flag, throwing a parade, pumping your chest with proud patriotism, looking skyward at a Vietnam warbird tribute and other jingoistic activities, I also hope that you(and many others) will also appreciate the mostly unseen darkside of the US veterans underbelly and do something about that, something more than just "thank you for your service".

The following is published by the U.S. National Coalition for the Homeless and the US Department of Veterans Affairs:

"Far too many veterans are homeless in America—between 130,000 and 200,000 on any given night—representing between one fourth and one-fifth of all homeless people. Three times that many veterans are struggling with excessive rent burdens and thus at increased risk of homelessness.

Further, there is concern about the future. Women veterans and those with disabilities including post traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury are more likely to become homeless, and a higher percentage of veterans returning from the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have these characteristics.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that 131,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. And approximately twice that manyexperience homelessness over the course of a year. Conservatively, one out of every three homeless men who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our cities and rural communities has put on a uniform and served this country.

Approximately 40% of homeless men are veterans, although veterans comprise only 34% of the general adult male population. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans estimates that on any given night, 200,000 veterans are homeless, and 400,000 veterans will experience homelessness during the course of a year (National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, 2006). 97% of those homeless veterans will be male (Department of Veterans Affairs, 2008).

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) says the nation's homeless veterans are mostly males (four percent are females). The vast majority is single, most come from poor, disadvantaged communities, 45 percent suffer from mental illness, and half have substance abuse problems. America’s homeless veterans have served in World War II, Korean War, Cold War, Vietnam War, Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan), Operation Iraqi Freedom, or the military’s anti-drug cultivation efforts in South America. 47 per cent of homeless veterans served during the Vietnam Era. More than 67 per cent served our country for at least three years and 33 per cent were stationed in a war zone.

Here are some statistics concerning the veterans homeless:

23% of homeless population are veterans
33% of male homeless population are veterans
47% Vietnam Era
17% post-Vietnam
15% pre-Vietnam
67% served three or more years
33% stationed in war zone
25% have used VA Homeless Services
85% completed high school/GED, compared to 56% of non-veterans
89% received Honorable Discharge
79% reside in central cities
16% reside in suburban areas
5% reside in rural areas
76% experience alcohol, drug, or mental health problems
46% white males compared to 34% non-veterans
46% age 45 or older compared to 20% non-veterans"

John Leidel
07-09-2013, 05:15 AM
I find it interesting how the simple suggestion of honoring Vietnam Veterans at an airshow, just like we do those who served in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc.etc. etc has become a political pissing match. I understand the Vietnam War was a terrible situation on all levels. However those soldiers deserve our respect for serving Our Country regardless of their or our political views. The Vietnam Vets where crapped on by their fellow countrymen for to long. Even though it is way to late, I feel we should honor them and give them the respect they deserve. To hell with politics, this is about honoring those who fought and died for our Country, weather we agreed with the reason for the war or not.

avinuts
07-09-2013, 10:06 AM
As this conversation has progressed, I thought that perhaps I would no longer post anything here to prevent further discord. As you can see, here I am putting another two cents worth in for the sake of background motive / clarification.
I AM NOT a Viet Nam Veteran, heck I didn't even serve in the military. That said, it doesn't mean that I don't respect anyone who did or that I don't want to thank them for what they did.
As you can see, I don't have a personal motive to pat myself on the back or look for some sort of recognition. Maybe I am a little selfish in that I do take pleasure in giving a Vet a pat on the back, shake their hand and saying a sincere "thank-you".
Members of our family have served in various branches of the military during different conflicts of which I don't think any were without some sort of controversy. My Great Grandfather fought in the Civil War at both Gettysburg and Fredericksburg. My father was in WW I. Family members were veterans of both Korea and Viet Nam. Our two daughters are veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan respectively.
Even though due to particular circumstances that I was not in Viet Nam I DO remember the times well. The Selective Service Draft. What it meant to be 1-S, 1-A or 1-Y. I remember protesters smashing windows and making threats to burn down the ROTC office on campus. The media putting a slant on reporting regarding those protests. I also remember proffessors on campus "declairing" a moritorium on classes in protest of the war. (my classes) I remember watching the nightly evening news with the daily body counts.
Oh, and then the people that I personally knew/know; there was my high school classmate, "Russ" who was KIA three weeks after arriving in Viet Nam. There was "Jerry" from my home town that had his F-4 shot down and spent six years of his life in the Hanoi Hilton. (Still has his sandals and mess cup) "Dick" was shot down in his F-4 and before being rescued, saw his "back-seater" exicuted by the Viet Cong. Or then there was "Heinz", who we invited to EAA Oshkosh back in the 90's when they had the Huey fly-over, cried and for the first time spoke to his family about his service in Viet Nam. Then there was "Brandt" and "Randy" both were Medics on Medivac helicopters who never spoke of their service until after many years of friendship. The demons that they had to live with were that they were affraid to be judged for the actions they commited "playing-God-like" humans and making life and death decissions every day.
In tribute to these guys and all of the other Vets, YES they do deserve recognition...........unfortunately, some of the names listed above are no longer with us to see it.
On Friday, July 2nd, our daughters will both be in attendance at EAA Oshkosh 2013 to participate in the Salute to Veterans Program. I hope that you stop by and meet them. Ask them what might have motivated them to do what they do......
A very proud parent.
Respectfully submitted,
Mike

Bill Greenwood
07-09-2013, 03:18 PM
John, the sentiment is on your side, at least on this conservative oriented forum.

It is certainly in favor of having some demo in honor of vets, even those from Nam.

However, I think I have made a little progress; you have called this war, "terrible on all levels" so that is at least a small step in the right direction and away from those who never met a war they didn't like, especially if they get someone else to do the fighting and dying.

One last thing, what you call a "pissing match", I would call an intense discussion of a very important serious matter.. And I have tried to keep this civil, to debate the facts and ideas, not get into personal insults. And they can spout all day about how their taxes are too high or the wall at the border is too low, or how what we really need is more oil drilling or more nuclear submarines, and less regulation on coal mines or pipelines, etc. But let someone write or say something on the other side, and they bring out the Big Word,
POLITICS. I think is it latin or maybe greek for. "Not only don't I agree with you, and don't want to consider what you say, I don't think you should even have the right to say it."

There are many people, and to generalize especially older military men, who not only don't value, but can't stand any sort of discussion or debate. It is all black and white to them, no shades of grey. My Dad, a nice guy and a very honest man, was much like that. They fought for and in some cases honor freedom of speech, just as long as it agrees with them.

Floatsflyer
07-09-2013, 08:39 PM
There are many people, and to generalize especially older military men, who not only don't value, but can't stand any sort of discussion or debate. It is all black and white to them, no shades of grey. My Dad, a nice guy and a very honest man, was much like that. They fought for and in some cases honor freedom of speech, just as long as it agrees with them.

My Dad was just like that. WW11 RCAF veteran. During the time of Vietnam I was a teen and then into my early 20's in university. He disliked my long hair, my politics, my music and my views of the time. BUT...he told me that if we lived 90 miles south(i.e. Buffalo, NY), he would have driven me to Canada himself to avoid being drafted and going to 'Nam. He thought that conflict was totally bogus and believed that the only reason for it's existence was to make the arms manufacturers fat with cash. And by the way, although my dad was ex-airforce, he never flew with me...he thought it was a big waste of money.(He was an entrepreneur, did very well but believed money should be only used to make more money, not wasted or spent on extravagences.)

Bill Greenwood
07-10-2013, 11:47 AM
Floatsflyer
I have often wondered what I would have done if I had received orders to Nam. I don't honestly know, even to this date.
I was at the U of Texas during most of the early part of the war, with LBJ turning a minor thing into a major war. UT was great, I had played high school football and loved it, would have given most anything to play at Texas, only problem is I was about 2 inches too short, 100 pounds too light, and 3 seconds too slow in the 100. Oh, and I had bad hands as a receiver. But I got to watch Texas win the National Championship my freshman year and the next year they beat Alabama in the Orange Bowl and one of my Lamar High teamates was in when they stopped Joe Namath 4 times inside the 5 yard line.I thought I was in heaven without having to die first. I dated some fun, smart girls at UT, met Farah Fawcet once, and eventually manged to find a little study time to graduate with a degree in finance. I never played football there, but did coach an intermural team that only lost once to the champions. So I loved it there, and not just the fun I had, but the value put on learning and ideas; so different than the military way of following orders no matter how stupid or even illegal and immoral they were.
I had one bad experience at U T, in the summer of '66, my former dorm guy, a former Marine sharpshooter went nuts and shot 35 people from the tower. It did not make me love killing or guns or Marines with mental disorders. I can still see the blood and bodies. It didn't make me want to go to war and do it myself.
After college we didn't have draft numbers then, but I wasn't a student anymore. One day I was getting a physical from my Dad's family doctor. I had always had a bit of a problem with my back, a minor curve of my spine. He asked if I wanted him to write a letter of disability for the draft. THAT WAS A BIG MOMENT OF DECISION. I can still recall standing there, not knowing what to say. The smart voice in my head told me to take it, that here was a completely legit way to never have to go in any war. But there was another voice, probably the brainwashed one, and I knew that while my back pain was legit, and bothers me a lot these days;that I was well enough to play football or anything else. So like a dummy I said no to his offer, and got no letter. I joined the Air Force as they had openings in my home town and the Army unit in Austin didn't. And my Brother had been in A F and thought it was better, especially if you had an education.
I went to Lackland for basic training and it was spring so not too hot. It was a nasty 180* degree turn from college or high school. Football is a big deal in Texas, and practice, especially in the heat can be hard, lot's of work while coaches may be yelling at you. And high school coaches aren't always the brightest. But it was, "Work hard, give it your best"., and I could certainly get up for game day.
Basic training was different, the D I s were constantly yelling at you, not to work hard, but about how worthless you were. And talk about some low lifes, really ignorant people. Most of the recruits had been to or even finished college and the D I s could barely speak a complete sentence. I doubt if they could have finished at my high school. So they were such a joke that most of their attempts at pyscho abuse just went in one ear and out the other. I can't remember a single thing they said. I was actually surprised that there was not more physical exercise, mostly marching and listening to the abuse. I did well on the timed obstacle course run. You can do most anything for a month or so and I made it through. I grew up in the south, but the first overt act of racism I saw was in basic where the only Black guy was made to held back to repeat training despite performing the same as all of us. I can still remember that. So much for any ideals of fairness.
In tech school, like basic, the hardest thing was not getting enough sleep and I got a very bad case of mono,but did not go to the doctor until I got back home. So I didn't find anything motivating about the military, not even counting the war.

Floatsflyer
07-10-2013, 12:13 PM
Bill, you actually knew Charles Whitman? I remember that tragedy like it happened yesterday--so sad.

Bill Greenwood
07-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Floats, my freshman year I lived at the Goodall Wooten dorm, Charles Whitman was our dorm counselor, I was in room 606 and he was 2 floors above me, I think in 806. I knew him, but not well. He had already been in the Marines, so was older. When we'd get rowdy he would say, "come on guys, it's late, hold it down." He was never violent or even hard about it. He had a crew cut military type haircut, but others did then also. He was quiet and kept mostly to himself.
I never had any conflict with him, but I have always wondered if we had reached out to include him if that might have helped. We never asked him to join us to go out for a burger or a beer.
I went back to the dorm and looked in the rooms 2 years ago. I didn't say anything to the students there about why, just that I had once been there. I felt sick at my stomach.
It was 3 years later when it happened. I found myself hiding behind stone wall 20 yards from a pregnant lady who was lying on the hot August pavement in a pool of blood. I and another guy were going to run out and get the lady, when someone talked us out of it. They said, "don't go out there he shot a dog and it wasn't a very big dog." The problem was that he was behind cover and could see us, but we never knew what side of the tower he was on. The lady lived, her baby did not. I had an A in a course and had to drop it as my prof was shot, lived but could not teach then.
Whitman had complained of headaches, and an autopsy found a brain tumor. I think his main problem was an abusive father.
A very sad day, and not one that makes me want to see killing again.

Floatsflyer
07-10-2013, 07:16 PM
Bill, what a horrific event to witness first hand-how awful. With every similar mass shooting event since, you must return to that imagery on that fateful day at UT. That must weigh very heavily on you. Perhaps that's why you started to fly...to get away from the craziness on earth.

JimRice85
07-11-2013, 08:23 PM
In addition to waving the flag, throwing a parade, pumping your chest with proud patriotism, looking skyward at a Vietnam warbird tribute and other jingoistic activities, I also hope that you(and many others) will also appreciate the mostly unseen darkside of the US veterans underbelly and do something about that, something more than just "thank you for your service".

I'm retired Army. I'm pretty sure I appreciate it more than many. Been deployed and lost friends.

avinuts
07-14-2013, 08:04 AM
I had the pleasure to meet and speak with Gary Wetzel, military advocate, Viet Nam War Veteran and MEDAL OF HONOR recipient. A truely great man along with the many others who were awarded this medal. He would be a reasonable participant to an event as listed above. In his words, "do not confuse the war with the warrior".

3088


http://www.war-veterans.org/Wetzel.htm

RV8505
07-15-2013, 10:47 AM
I've been thinking, which is always a dangerous thing....
This year the Honor Flight is comprised of Viet Nam Veterans, this appears to be the new generation that is "coming of age".
Wouldn't it be a GREAT tribute to them and provide not only a good show, but also perhaps a good educational opportunity for those young people who aren't old enough to remember to have a "specifically" Viet Nam Veterans Day at EAA Oshkosh 2014?
Please picture this; a Chinook helicopter with a Huey on both sides doing a formation fly-by, a Cobra, Phantom and Skyhawk jet, a Carribou, Mohawk, Bird Dog and maybe a SkyRaider.
I believe that there are flying history museum / groups in Ohio and Georgia that do re-enactments and have a considerable amount aviation equipment available.
So, what do you think?

Respectfully,
Mike

That would be cool! Maybe we could get Lt Gen Hal Moore to show up.

Bill Greenwood
07-15-2013, 02:21 PM
You can learn something everyday. I was living in Colorado, by 1973, but still in the military, but only as a reserve, with weekend a month meeting.
I don't recall hearing much of that Orlando song, certainly not that it was any type of anthem to the military.
I looked it up on Google, and it is not even about soldiers, or Vietnam. I don't think it is in the various movies about Nam, two of which are BUBBA GUMP, and the one where Robin Williams is the very popular but non standard disk jockey. According to the two writers, who are not Tony Orlando, the song is about a convict who writes his girl before getting out of prison after serving 3 years, One line is "I'm still in prison". None of the lyrics in the song mention, war or soldiers or Vietnam, but I guess they may have thought it applied to them.

If this singer and this song is the best for those guys , then that is what they should have, or whatever even if it is the Palwakee Polka Band.

RV8505
07-15-2013, 03:37 PM
You can learn something everyday. I was living in Colorado, by 1973, but still in the military, but only as a reserve, with weekend a month meeting.
I don't recall hearing much of that Orlando song, certainly not that it was any type of anthem to the military.
I looked it up on Google, and it is not even about soldiers, or Vietnam. I don't think it is in the various movies about Nam, two of which are BUBBA GUMP, and the one where Robin Williams is the very popular but non standard disk jockey. According to the two writers, who are not Tony Orlando, the song is about a convict getting out of prison after serving 3 years. None of the lyrics in the song mention, war or soldiers or Vietnam, but I guess they may have thought it applied to them.

If this singer and this song is the best for those guys , then that is what they should have, or whatever even if it is the Palwakee Polka Band.


Wrong post! Anyway, I guess your family was connected, If I remember correctly, it took alot of political pull to get into the air national guard in the day.

Bill Greenwood
07-15-2013, 06:29 PM
RV8505, as for as "your family was connected" and " alot of political pull", don't know about you or others but that wasn't my case.
First of all,while I was still in in'73, I didn't join in '73, I joined at the end of '68, after I graduated from college. I am not sure of the exact date, I know I went to basic training at Lackland AFB in the spring of '69.
My family was not in politics at all, and if they were it would not have had any pull with a Dem Pres (LBJ) as they were Republicans and except me still are. As for "connections" my Dad was not in the military, my Brother had been in years before but we had no connections.I talked to my Brother about which branch would be best to join, don't recall even discussing it with my Dad.
I and a college friend simply went to the unit in Austin which was full, and then to the one near my home town in Houston which wanted both of us. We both had degrees, though not in any military subject. I do recall taking some type of written aptitude test and scoring in the 90% on the mechanical section, so I went to mechanic tech school. I also did pretty well on another section, but search my memory as far as I can, I am not sure what that section was, maybe something to do with finance. I am glad I was not stuck in some dry paperwork section as I would not be very good at it. I had a friend that was interested in those new things called computers and the army sent him for 6 months to an IBM school in El Paso at no cost to him and he got some good training useful not only in the military but also later in business.

I don't know what your experience was or if you were in the service or when and where if at all, but your version is not what I had. So maybe you don't "remember correctly", or what was true for you was not for me. Some people talk about "draft numbers", but as for as I know I never had one, maybe they came later or earlier.

I do know that at some point, I think it was after basic training or after tech school they called me in and offered me to go to officers school. I think it was just because I had a degree. Anyway, I turned it down, wasn't enamored of jets. Wonder if my answer would have been any different if they still had Mustangs, or if they had guaranteed pilot training. It has been a long time and these aren't memories I tried to hold.

By the way, Geo W Bush was a couple of years behind me at the same High School in Houston, not the same college, and he ended up at a base, Ellington AFB just 8 miles from where I was. I didn't know him personally, but had freinds that flew with him at EFD. Years later I did some airshows with the CAF at Ellington.

RV8505
07-15-2013, 08:40 PM
I remember in 1968 it was the year of the monkey ( Tet Offensive ) and some of the worst fighting during the Vietnam War. There was still a stigma from WWII vets about going to Canada or going 4F. So, almost every young male was volunteering for Air-Force, Navy and Air Guard. Unfortunatly, many of the Air Guard Units were full. As far as I knew you had to know someone to get in and it was hard! One in, it was some pretty good duty from what I saw. Pretty much one weekend a month, two weeks a year. You never received a draft number because you were in the Air Guard. If a young male couldn't associate with a military unit, he would be eligible for the draft. If drafted you had about a 100% chance of ending up in the Army or Marines as a grunt. Then you had about a 90 percent chance going to Vietnam.

avinuts
07-21-2013, 06:28 PM
If you like the idea, the only way that it will happen is through support. Please talk it up at EAA Oshkosh 2013. It won't take money or necessarilly big names, but it will take large numbers of people talking about it. Thanks !!

avinuts
07-26-2013, 03:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h5MjW_6jAz4

Yes!

John Leidel
07-26-2013, 04:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h5mjw_6jaz4

yes! awesome!

avinuts
08-29-2013, 04:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75ABndMCo1A

Keep the fire burning!!

http://www.wbay.com/story/23035271/2013/08/02/honor-flight-was-emotional-journey-for-vietnam-veterans

Welcome Home !!

RV8505
08-29-2013, 06:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75ABndMCo1A

Keep the fire burning!!

http://www.wbay.com/story/23035271/2013/08/02/honor-flight-was-emotional-journey-for-vietnam-veterans

Welcome Home !!


Maybe we could get Bob Seger. I have a buddy that got his aviation start in Nam and he has been a aviation gypsy ever since. I ask him if he get's tired of the gypsy life and he would say "wouldn't change a thing brother cause it's all been good!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtpP4ck8Ws

Bill Greenwood
09-06-2013, 10:28 AM
When the Honor Flight, ( I think that is the right term) took the vets from Oshkosh to D. C. this year, I wonder if they visited the Vietnam Memorial Wall?
I haven't seen it myself, but I have seen a smaller version.

Hal Bryan
09-06-2013, 01:25 PM
They did. My friend Chris did an excellent documentary about their trip, here's a trailer:


http://vimeo.com/72149424

avinuts
02-21-2014, 10:31 AM
Thanks to everyone out there in the discussion of this apparently sensitive subject both positive and negative. I saw this week that the Warbirds of America will have a one-day flying demonstration of Viet Nam era aircraft as one of the themes for the afternoon show. I would like to thank all of them for this consideration and hope that perhaps at least a little part of that decission may have come from this dialogue. See you at EAA Oshkosh 2014!!!

avinuts
02-27-2014, 02:14 PM
Here is a possible partial list, wouldn't a flyby of a Chinook with hueys look nice?
Some aircraft are still in use by our present day military**

AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, UH-1 Huey, CH-47 Chinook**, CH-46 SeaKnight, UH-12 Raven, OH-6 Loach, H-22 Shawnee, H-19 Chickasaw, CH-34 Choctaw, O-1 Bird Dog, O-2 Skymaster, A-1 Sky Raider, C-46 Commando, B-26 Invader, C-130 Hercules**, C-47 Dakota, E-2 Hawkeye, T-2 Buckeye, T-28 Trojan, HC-4 Caribou, F-6F Hellcat, F-8F Bearcat,HU-16 Albatross, OV-1 Mohawk, PV-2 Neptune, F-9F Cougar, B-52 Stratofortress**, KC-135 Stratotanker**, C-141 Starlifter (Hanoi Taxi), F-4 Phantom, A-37 Dragonfly, T-41 Mescalero, A-3 Skywarrior, A-4 Skyhawk, C-2 Greyhound, A-6 Intruder/prowler, E-1 Tracer, F-102/F-106 Delta Jets, F-111 Aardvark, U-2 Dragon Lady, SR-71 Blackbird. Sorry for those that I missed...

avinuts
02-28-2014, 08:58 AM
Speakers?
Just a very few of the many out there that gave so much...
Gen. Patrick Brady (MOH)
Gary Wetzel (MOH) (Oak Creek, WI)
Sammy Davis (MOH)
Gen. John Borling (POW)
Gerald Gerndt (POW) (Mukwonego, WI)
Gen. Hal Moore

avinuts
02-28-2014, 09:04 AM
When the Honor Flight, ( I think that is the right term) took the vets from Oshkosh to D. C. this year, I wonder if they visited the Vietnam Memorial Wall?
I haven't seen it myself, but I have seen a smaller version.
I have been to the "wall". Well worth the visit and very emotional. Did a name rubbing of my high school classmate. The Smithsonian Museum had an interesting display of items that have been left at the wall. (Photos, medals, notes, flowers and panties.) Definetly things that meant something to someone

Bill Greenwood
02-28-2014, 09:31 AM
Which day of Airventure will be the Vietnam day?

avinuts
02-28-2014, 10:34 AM
I think according to the Warbirds newsletter, it will be Wednesday(?)

avinuts
02-28-2014, 01:35 PM
http://www.eaa.org/warbirdsbriefing/articles/1402_eaa-warbirds-of-america-plans-airventure-2014-warbird-air-shows.asp

avinuts
04-14-2014, 03:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-CTKFzWjjw

Watch this....
Feel this.....
Remember this........
Thank you and welcome home!!

avinuts
05-13-2014, 08:02 PM
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=458695297595379

Jim Heffelfinger
05-14-2014, 01:30 PM
Great video and great project. I shared on my facebook page for others to know about this group of amazing ladies. Thank you.