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smj58501
06-08-2013, 11:08 AM
Folks... just a quick and possibly dumb question but I have to ask anyways.

I am a Private Pilot SEL. I eventually want to get an SES add on. I am also looking at which homebuilt design I want to go in on - and amphibians are at the top of the list.

So the question is this. Can I fly an amphibian with an SEL rating so long as I always operate it on land? I ask in case I get the aircraft done an with don't complete the SES add on or otherwise decide not to want to operate the aircraft on water. Thx in advance.

Floatsflyer
06-08-2013, 11:50 AM
You pose an interesting question, one I've never heard asked, so I don't have an "official authoritative" answer. However, pure logic dictates you should be able to fly an amphib with an SEL license on land only. But logic may not prevail here because it might be akin to saying I want to fly a twin on a SEL and I promise, warrant and represent that I'll only fly with only one engine operating--this may not be a good analogy.


Question for you. Why would you want an amphib(floats or flying boat) if you aren't 100% committed to getting a float endorsement? Seems like a complete waste of one-half of the airplane's versatility, function, and fun.


If you are unable to get a factual answer here I'd call a flight school or the nearest FAA office and ask for personel licensing.

WLIU
06-08-2013, 01:34 PM
I will suggest that just like you can fly a Part 23 aircraft that otherwise qualifies as an LSA using your Sport Pilot Certificate, you can fly an amphib with your land plane rating so long as you only land on airports, not on the water. You have land plane priviledges and you are legal to use them no matter that the airplane can land on other surfaces. I will suggest that the attempt to use the multi-engine rating as an example falls short as there are no multi-engine Part 23 airplanes legal to take off on one. Interestingly, some Part 25 airplanes are OK to take off with one engine inop under specific restrictions.

That said, just like you would be safer getting dual in another homebuilt of the same make and model of yours before the first flight of your own homebuilt aircraft, it only makes sense that going and getting a seaplane rating before you fly your own homebuilt seaplane, will contribute to the safety of your first splash down in the one that you built. And what if you discover that the idea of owning a seaplane is not the same as the reality of landing on water amidst speedboats and jetskis on your favorite lake?

I think that a seaplane rating is fun and if you are building, I think that you will find spending some time getting the rating a welcome break from weekends of making piles of small parts that do not yet look like an airplane.

Best of luck,

Wes

martymayes
06-08-2013, 06:30 PM
So the question is this. Can I fly an amphibian with an SEL rating so long as I always operate it on land?
I agree with Wes, the answer is YES.

Bill Berson
06-08-2013, 07:06 PM
A private pilot SEL can fly a homebuilt seaplane on water or twin engine on land or water or even a helicopter as long as it is solo.



61.31-
-(l) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.

(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—


(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;


(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;


(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of—


(A) A provisional type certificate; or


(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;


(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon;


(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of 61.101(h); or


(vi) The holder of a sport pilot certificate when operating a light-sport aircraft.

Floatsflyer
06-08-2013, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=Bill Berson;31480]A private pilot SEL can fly a homebuilt seaplane on water or twin engine on land or water or even a helicopter as long as it is solo.
QUOTE]

Bill, I don't think you're correct about homebuilt twins. The rep for Aircam told me I need a multi-engine rating to fly it solo or + passenger. It's a fabulous airplane but this is the reason sales are low. I know you're correct for single seat heli like the Mosquito.

Bill Berson
06-08-2013, 07:56 PM
The Mosquito helicopter is ultralight and does not require any certificate.

Any person can solo a seaplane with nothing but a student pilot certificate and an instructors endorsement for solo.
Once you have a private certificate of any category, endorsements for solo are not needed anymore for homebuilts.

Bill Berson
06-08-2013, 08:21 PM
Folks... just a quick and possibly dumb question but I have to ask anyways.

I am a Private Pilot SEL. I eventually want to get an SES add on. I am also looking at which homebuilt design I want to go in on - and amphibians are at the top of the list.

So the question is this. Can I fly an amphibian with an SEL rating so long as I always operate it on land? I ask in case I get the aircraft done an with don't complete the SES add on or otherwise decide not to want to operate the aircraft on water. Thx in advance.
I would say yes, but only solo. (No passengers) And you can fly from land or water when solo.
See my post # 5 for details

Now if you are asking if you may fly a seaplane with passengers from land only, that is a separate and unique question that I can't answer.
If anyone knows, please state FAR.

Floatsflyer
06-08-2013, 09:07 PM
Bill, I don't think you're correct about homebuilt twins. The rep for Aircam told me I need a multi-engine rating to fly it solo or + passenger.[/QUOTE]

From AirCam Owners Forum, Aug.7, 2011:

1, You DO need a twin engine rating to fly an aircam. It is experimental but u need a multi engine rating with tail dragger endorsement to fly it.

smj58501
06-08-2013, 10:58 PM
Wow.. lots of great feedback. I appreciate all of it.

A very good question was posed back to me regarding if I had any hesitation on flying floats then why would I build an amphibian. I guess at the end of the day I would answer by saying that I am 90% wanting to do it, but like to have the option of still being able to fly whatever I build in case I don't follow through on that flying pursuit for whatever reason.

martymayes
06-09-2013, 05:56 AM
Floats flyer,
I go to the FAR's for my information, not sales reps. That doesn't mean I am always right, but I try.For an E-A/B, the definitive answer is in the aircraft's operating limitations. Most likely, category/class ratings are required.

WLIU
06-09-2013, 06:24 AM
That is correct. If you would like some light reading, look up FAA Order 8130.2f. Start at page 161.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Anymouse
06-09-2013, 11:05 AM
Getting back to the 1st hijack, IIRC, if the aircraft has more than one seat you need to be appropriately certificated/rated. If it's a single seat aircraft, then you're good to go, legally speaking. Flying solo with a two (or more) seat aircraft still requires the ticket. This is a loophole that was tightened several years ago.

WLIU
06-09-2013, 12:37 PM
Anymouse, can you cite the FAR? I went looking and did not immediately find it.

Thanks,

Wes
N78PS

Bill Berson
06-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Getting back to the 1st hijack, IIRC, if the aircraft has more than one seat you need to be appropriately certificated/rated. If it's a single seat aircraft, then you're good to go, legally speaking. Flying solo with a two (or more) seat aircraft still requires the ticket. This is a loophole that was tightened several years ago.
A student pilot can solo a two seat Cessna 150 without any rating, just need an instructors endorsement in the log.
A helicopter instructor once told me that since I have a private SEL, I don't require his endorsement to solo a helicopter.

So where is the rule?

Anymouse
06-09-2013, 03:13 PM
A student pilot can solo a two seat Cessna 150 without any rating, just need an instructors endorsement in the log.
A helicopter instructor once told me that since I have a private SEL, I don't require his endorsement to solo a helicopter.

So where is the rule?

Apples and oranges. Student solo endorsements expire eventually.

Go do your own research. You'll probably find it on the EAA website.

Hal Bryan
06-10-2013, 07:14 AM
FYI - I pruned this thread this morning, removing some off-topic bickering. Please carry on...

skier
06-10-2013, 05:38 PM
I don't think part 61.31 is the correct FAR to reference here. While that does technically allow someone to fly a experimental helicopter (twin, etc) with a only a SEL rating as long as it is allowed on the aircraft's operating limitations. I think this conversation would be better directed looking at how an aircraft is certified. According to the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Lake LA-4 ( http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/26EB3D164F3843E686256F7E0064E7F8?OpenDocument&Highlight=lake ) the aircraft is a "Small Airplane". I don't believe (I could be wrong) that there is anything certifying the LA-4 as an Amphibian. Thus if you were to fly it strictly from land you would only need an SEL rating.

Same for a C-182 on amphibious floats. I don't think adding the floats changes anything about how the aircraft is certified, thus if you wanted to fly a really slow, inefficient C-182 with only an SEL, you could add floats to it and only fly it from land.

martymayes
06-10-2013, 06:34 PM
I don't believe (I could be wrong) that there is anything certifying the LA-4 as an Amphibian. Thus if you were to fly it strictly from land you would only need an SEL rating.

Well, the TCDS says: 4PCAmM(Normal Category). Deciphered, that means 4 place, Cabin, Amphibian, Monoplane (Normal Category is self explanatory).

I think you are saying if a plane is certified as a seaplane, the pilot would be required to have a seaplane rating, since it would be precluded from land operations, which would be correct.

A C-182 is certified as a 4PCLM, 4 place cabin, land, monoplane but If you added straight floats it would become a 4PCSM and would require a seaplane rating to fly, since it would no longer be possible to operate from land.

Jim Hann
06-10-2013, 11:24 PM
Talked to a buddy about this thread. He did fly an amphib when he only had an ASEL rating AND got ramp checked. No problem from those Feds but that was a while ago. He is ASES rated now.

YMMV

skier
06-11-2013, 05:24 AM
Well, the TCDS says: 4PCAmM(Normal Category). Deciphered, that means 4 place, Cabin, Amphibian, Monoplane (Normal Category is self explanatory).

I think you are saying if a plane is certified as a seaplane, the pilot would be required to have a seaplane rating, since it would be precluded from land operations, which would be correct.

A C-182 is certified as a 4PCLM, 4 place cabin, land, monoplane but If you added straight floats it would become a 4PCSM and would require a seaplane rating to fly, since it would no longer be possible to operate from land.

Perhaps the original poster would be able to register his amphibian (Taylor Coot, Pereira Osprey, etc) as a 2PCLM and then after getting his SEL rating switch it over to a 2PCSM in much the same way that a C-182 would go though the same process (though since it's experimental that may change things)? If required maybe the OP could even fix the landing gear to prevent water operations initially?

WLIU
06-11-2013, 04:26 PM
The FAA's official position is that the TCDS is NOT regulatory. And the AFM does not specify that any particular rating is required, it just covers operating limitations. I just looked at my Husky seaplane AFM. To put it another way, the aircraft certification branch is a different FAA than the airman certification branch and one branch does not issue requirements that involve the other. The FAA is a funny organization in many ways.

So I stand by the position that your pilot certificate generally sets forth privileges for the types of operations that you may execute, not the specific airplanes that you may fly. So if, when I was not certificated to fly a seaplane, I flew an amphib from one airport to another, I was merely flying an airplane with retractable landing gear and the shape of the airplane has no bearing on whether I was using my certificate properly. Note: A complex signoff applies here.

Now we are talking about amphib's, not straight seaplanes here. But you have to see a seaplane land on grass and launch off a wheeled dolly to believe it.

And we are not talking about type ratings although now I wish that I had asked Max Folsom to see what his certificate said about his C-47 on amphib floats.

So I suggest the original poster can go ahead, build the airplane, have the operating limitations issued for what it is, and operate it according to the privileges stated on the pilot certificate that he holds at that time.

A lot of the speculation above is based on real world logic, not lawyer or government employee logic. Do not confuse those things.

Best of luck,

Wes

skier
06-11-2013, 05:55 PM
Now we are talking about amphib's, not straight seaplanes here. But you have to see a seaplane land on grass and launch off a wheeled dolly to believe it.



http://youtu.be/nECnrm0DWt4


http://youtu.be/Z3bY3-o1fmk

Tralika
08-14-2013, 08:50 PM
smj8501
As to your original goal of owning an amphibious aircraft. Before you commit to buying an amphib I suggest you get some time flying one first. Amphibs are a different animal and it takes some getting used to. Amphibs taxi very strangely, steering is accomplished by asymmetrical braking. Imagine sitting in the front of a shopping cart and braking the rear tires while the front tires free caster. Taking off in an Amphib is also pretty weird. You have to pull the nose off the runway to get it to pitch up, then it wants to continue pitching up and you have to force the nose down to a normal climb pitch attitude. You need to be very proficient to land an amphib safely. There is little or no shock absorption on the main wheels. If you are sloppy you run the risk of damaging the airframe. Amphibs are also heavy. A four or even 6 passenger plane on amphibs is a 2 passenger airplane. Also keep in mind that amphibs carry the inherent risk of landing with the gear in the wrong position. It carries more risk because unlike a normal retractable gear airplane, you have to make a decision on what position the gear must be in for each landing. I know pilots with a lot of time in amphibs that have been bitten by the gear problem. Not a big deal if you land with the gear up on the ground but a really big deal if you land with the gear down on the water. My amphib time is in C185's and C206's and I'd much rather fly straight floats. Make sure you check to see how much insurance will cost before you buy.
Good luck.

jedi
08-27-2013, 04:12 PM
Folks... just a quick and possibly dumb question but I have to ask anyways.

I am a Private Pilot SEL. I eventually want to get an SES add on. I am also looking at which homebuilt design I want to go in on - and amphibians are at the top of the list.

So the question is this. Can I fly an amphibian with an SEL rating so long as I always operate it on land? I ask in case I get the aircraft done an with don't complete the SES add on or otherwise decide not to want to operate the aircraft on water. Thx in advance.

Just went through this with the FAA. Yes Note: Endorsement for a complex airplane is not required unless it has retractable gear, flaps, and a controlable pitch prop. All three are required or the endorsement is not required.

61.31(i) solo is allowed in the homebuilt (experimental, therefore dooes not have a standard type certificate) also, unless Conditions and Limitations issued with the aircraft require that the pilot have the appropriate certificates and ratings. This is a standard inclusion so may apply but it also may be eliminated particularly for the case in point.