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Jim Heffelfinger
05-20-2013, 11:00 AM
I frequently have had excellent perspective chapter members mention to me, when approached for chapter affiliation, that they don't want to hang around angry old men spouting right wing politics... or words to that effect. It is very sad that one or two personalities in a chapter has painted the whole of EAA. But there has to be a bit of truth in there somewhere.
Is this your chapter and what are you doing about it?

CarlOrton
05-20-2013, 01:27 PM
Hi, Jim; I think it's part of the "normal" cycle. We had quite a few, but they're advancing in age and not attending much anymore. Right now, we have the youngest chapter makeup I've known in my entire (gasp) 6 years with the chapter. Lots of 40 YO, plus some in their 20's. There is hope;

cub builder
05-20-2013, 02:20 PM
We have a pretty interesting mix in our chapter. Our chapter includes Los Alamos, NM (home of the Manhatten project and Los Alamos National Lab), and Santa Fe, NM (Home of many anti-nuke groups and a liberal bastion). The members of our chapter love aviation and airplanes. While I occasionally hear a political barb in either direction, for the most part, we are tolerant of each others beliefs and leave the politics for another time and place. As the chapter president, I won't allow political rants in the meetings. It's just not the right place for it. As diverse of a group as we have, politics has never been a problem as we work towards common goals in aviation. Wish the same could be said for our political leaders.

-CubBuilder

Frank Giger
05-20-2013, 11:26 PM
I guess we're a bit too Southern for the rudeness of political discourse in public beyond a bumper sticker.

We tend to have a few too many digression moments when going around the room before the official program for the meeting....but often they turn out to be more informative than the class (especially if I'm presenting). Though sometimes I go glassy-eyed at the tech speak.

We're an older chapter - I'm pushing 50 and am one of the young ones - but that's okay, too, as I get to sponge off of a whole lot of experience and know-how.

steveinindy
05-21-2013, 04:21 AM
I frequently have had excellent perspective chapter members mention to me, when approached for chapter affiliation, that they don't want to hang around angry old men spouting right wing politics... or words to that effect. It is very sad that one or two personalities in a chapter has painted the whole of EAA. But there has to be a bit of truth in there somewhere.
Is this your chapter and what are you doing about it?


BTW - I checked membership and did not find Glenn Beck listed but may have found his brother.
It definitely sounds like one of the chapters here. The other is effectively dead so I do not think there is much else to say about them. I get enough paranoid xenophobic conspiracy pseudo-conservative BS from my fiancee's parents so I definitely do not want it from a chapter. That is one reason I am looking into forming another chapter.

Mike M
05-21-2013, 06:17 AM
... angry old men spouting right wing politics... .

1973, average age EAA membership was 42.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eaa.org%2Fnews%2F2009%2F2009-03-02_PaulHarvey.pdf&ei=-WObUdPAJO2G0QGo3oCAAw&usg=AFQjCNHSDKta7eFiqNgcP2lA138lTZ48nA&bvm=bv.46751780,d.dmQ

2012, estimated average age mid-60's.

http://airfactsjournal.com/2012/10/trouble-in-paradise/

Winston Churchill may not have said it first, but people THINK he said:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”


and if you add those ages together, you get what we have now. disillusioned old men who know our hearts are no longer strong enough to provide oxygen to our brains. so keep smiling and recruiting younger members!

1600vw
05-21-2013, 06:37 AM
Steveinindy: I have thought about doing the same thing. I long for a club that has active members that do more then talk. I ran into a friend at the Safety Seminar that was held here in Springfield a few months ago. He told me his chapter meets outside and that they have only 2 or 3 members today. They really do nothing but hold a breakfast every now and then. I mentioned I wanted to join and he gave me every reason he could think of why I should not join.

1600vw
05-21-2013, 06:49 AM
These folks, are a few friends whom do not want an "outsider" coming in, unless its one of their buds, then they are welcome. Its a Midwest type of thinking. I have lived a lot of places in this country and see the way people in the Midwest think. I call it a "Clickish" state of mind. If you are not in the "Click" with these folks they do not want to even know you. And God forbid if you ever did anything they have not.

steveinindy
05-21-2013, 06:55 AM
Steveinindy: I have thought about doing the same thing. I long for a club that has active members that do more then talk. I ran into a friend at the Safety Seminar that was held here in Springfield a few months ago. He told me his chapter meets outside and that they have only 2 or 3 members today. They really do nothing but hold a breakfast every now and then. I mentioned I wanted to join and he gave me every reason he could think of why I should not join.

I caught grief from BOTH of the local chapters about the fact that I am actually designing my own aircraft rather than assembling a kit. Apparently the fact that I want something specific and different makes me persona non grata. I would like to have a chapter that is geared more towards design and advancing the state of the art instead of copying existing designs like a religious zealot.


Winston Churchill may not have said it first, but people THINK he said:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

I've got beliefs that fall on both sides. If you find yourself agreeing entirely with one party or the other, you're probably not thinking things through.

Remember Churchill was an alcoholic...a very smart alcoholic but still...

1600vw
05-21-2013, 07:26 AM
......This is in response to the OP........I believe as we get older we get more vocal about things for we have seen a lot and do not like what we see coming. I remember when I was a young boy listening to the older men bitch about this and that changing and thinking to myself...I bet every generation does this for they do not like the change they see happening. There is a time to bitch about this and that but at the club is not one. There should be a sign above every chapters door saying....Leave your politics at home...We are here to have...FUN....Also no club should have to vote on a member, it should be join if you want to join we welcome all...

cub builder
05-21-2013, 02:07 PM
I sure see a lot of "I want my chapter to be this way", or "I don't want it to be this way". Well guys and girls, all you have to do is step up into the chapter leadership and you will suddenly have a lot of say in how your chapter operates. I'll pick on Steve in Indy as an example here. You say one chapter is nearly dead, so no further comment is necessary. The other chapter you apparently don't like the political slant of some of the members. Then you go on to say that both objected to you designing your own plane. Well, step up to the plate and become a leader in either of those chapters. You can guide where the chapter goes and you can have a huge say in the focus of the chapter and how the chapter operates. Rather than starting a new chapter, how about re-invigorating an existing chapter. I don't know of any chapter that isn't in need of new blood in the leadership positions and willing to accept new leadership. Rather than fragmenting into more cliquish chapters, help re-invigorate the existing chapters and help the leadership fix what is wrong. Often times they either don't realize there is a problem, or don't know how to deal with it.

I have seen many chapters and EAA Tech Counselors that have become what I refer to as "RV Snobs". I don't say that to put down the RV builders out there. They are a fine airplane and I am only citing this as an example. Some chapters have so many RV builders, that anyone building something else becomes an outsider. I have seen that in my own chapter and put an immediate stop to it. It takes a small amount of effort on the part of the chapter leadership to put a stop to that kind of nonsense. All it takes is a word from the chapter leader, which could be you, to fix the issues.

6 years ago I took on the leadership of what was essentially a dead chapter and made a commitment to have an interesting tech program or speaker every month and that we would start having regular chapter events outside of our meetings. I created a meeting structure that includes a social time for the membership to enjoy refreshments and get caught up on all the latest with each other, a business meeting, and a presentation/tech talk. While our chapter isn't big, it is alive, active, and thriving. I plan to retire from the chapter leadership at the end of this year, but our chapter membership is up 400% from where we were just 5 years ago. It takes a little effort, but rather than complaining about how your chapter operates, you can make your chapter work for you and you have the opportunity to fix the things that bother you about it.

-CubBuilder

Wilfred
05-21-2013, 04:43 PM
Our chapter has about 30 or so folks. Some once had a plane, some have a plane they fly rarely, some never. The group wants to have meetings where they are entertained but don't want to do anything themselves. They never accept an office or chore of any sort, yet want the Chapter to do something for them.
I've done as newsletter a year at a time for four years, and the current president is the only one that will accept the office...this is rather typical of a lot of small groups so maybe it isn't something to worry about. Yet the only successful thing that ever happens is our annual Christmas party.

I wonder if its worth it sometimes.

steveinindy
05-22-2013, 12:46 AM
Well, step up to the plate and become a leader in either of those chapters. You can guide where the chapter goes and you can have a huge say in the focus of the chapter and how the chapter operates.

Kind of hard to become a "leader" of a group that wants nothing to do with outsiders. Add into that I have zero desire to associate with them for both political and just general dislike of their personalities and you see why forming a separate chapter is a better option. We have several airports around here


6 years ago I took on the leadership of what was essentially a dead chapter

The problem with our local "dead" chapter is that they are based (or at least seem to have a number of "fly-ins") at what is nominatively an airport but that most people forget is there (I would say they would be lucky to get two dozen flights a week) and unfortunately will probably go away in the next few years after the few codgers who hang around pass away.


I have seen many chapters and EAA Tech Counselors that have become what I refer to as "RV Snobs". I don't say that to put down the RV builders out there. They are a fine airplane and I am only citing this as an example. Some chapters have so many RV builders, that anyone building something else becomes an outsider.

That's the problem here too.


All it takes is a word from the chapter leader, which could be you, to fix the issues.

I have a better chance of being elected the next Pope.

Mike M
05-22-2013, 06:53 AM
well guys and girls, all you have to do is step up into the chapter leadership and you will suddenly have a lot of say in how your chapter operates. -cubbuilder

great advice

Mike Switzer
05-22-2013, 07:07 AM
Steve, you need to buy Speedway, re-open it & start a chapter there. That used to be a nice little airport.

steveinindy
05-22-2013, 07:23 AM
Steve, you need to buy Speedway, re-open it & start a chapter there. That used to be a nice little airport.

I would if it had not been turned into a subdivision already.

Mike Switzer
05-22-2013, 09:38 AM
I would if it had not been turned into a subdivision already.

Are you sure? It was still there a couple years ago, I drove by to visit. Google maps & bing still show it.

I'd post the coordinates but Google has changed their interface again & I cant figure out how. Just east of Avon north of Highway 36

RV8505
05-22-2013, 10:24 AM
I frequently have had excellent perspective chapter members mention to me, when approached for chapter affiliation, that they don't want to hang around angry old men spouting right wing politics... or words to that effect. It is very sad that one or two personalities in a chapter has painted the whole of EAA. But there has to be a bit of truth in there somewhere.
Is this your chapter and what are you doing about it?


BTW - I checked membership and did not find Glenn Beck listed but may have found his brother.

Maybe so so but the Left wing is well represented on this web site voicing their unwanted opinions and has painted the EAA another color as well. So in effect, does making a comment about Glen Beck kind of politically charge the debate and doesn't that make you part of the same problem different venue?

Jim Heffelfinger
05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
My comment re Mr. Beck (and his fictitious brother) was clearly tongue in cheek. I, as chapter VP and now P, have frequently intervened to keep focus on our common mission. Extreme polarity in either direction is paralyzing.

Jim Heffelfinger
05-22-2013, 12:44 PM
I appreciate Cubbuilder's comments - Any organization that is NOT growing tends to collect birds of a feather
Either by attraction within a narrow community or by feeling unwelcome if not of the same feather.
It is our job as members and leadership to make everyone feel welcome allowing diversity within our ranks. Keeping the chapter vibrant.
A true story: Guest visits - is outgoing enough to start mingling during break - mentions his interest in ultralights to one member - member goes on a loud tear about ULs . Guest is repulsed - never to be seen again. ( as well as 2 other guests) Member could have passed on the guest to another member that flies light aircraft or has a differing perspective. Member only flies big iron and has never been in a 800# aircraft.
So, I mentioned right wing only because they are very vocal in my chapter. It could easily be other "feathers".
Since my chapter has an average age in the 70s, anyone coming into the room under 40 might have their own perspective.
I , and many others, are ardently trying to rebuild age diversity for chapter health.
jim

RV8505
05-22-2013, 01:02 PM
My comment re Mr. Beck (and his fictitious brother) was clearly tongue in cheek. I, as chapter VP and now P, have frequently intervened to keep focus on our common mission. Extreme polarity in either direction is paralyzing.

Maybe that Beck comment would be tonge and cheek for YOU. Maybe you took fellow members comments wrong and they were merly tonge and cheek ? I don't really see the differnce? I 'm trying to help. Could it be that you maybe said some Tonge and cheek comments in the meeting that contributed to this enviorment?

cub builder
05-22-2013, 02:07 PM
It is our job as members and leadership to make everyone feel welcome allowing diversity within our ranks. Keeping the chapter vibrant.
A true story: Guest visits - is outgoing enough to start mingling during break - mentions his interest in ultralights to one member - member goes on a loud tear about ULs . Guest is repulsed - never to be seen again. ( as well as 2 other guests) Member could have passed on the guest to another member that flies light aircraft or has a differing perspective. Member only flies big iron and has never been in a 800# aircraft.
jim

Good points Jim. So I'll comment on how I head off this kind of problem. We start all of our meetings with a 30 minute (or sometimes longer) "social time" with refreshments or a barbecue. The intent is to let people catch up with others as everyone wants to update their friends on their latest accomplishments. This also helps cut down on the number of "break out sessions" that tend to spontaneously occur during the business meeting. During the social time, I (or could be any designated member) keep a lookout for anyone that comes wondering in that I don't recognize. I make it a point to go greet them and talk for a minute. If the visitor mentions he/she is interested in a given subject (say ultralights as an example), I'll make it a point to go interrupt one of the many cliques that tend to gather and introduce this individual to one or more members with a common interest and let them take it from there. This allows the visitor to become one of the group and feels much more at ease before the actual meeting ever starts. I believe the social time before the meetings is really critical to helping build the relationships within the chapter.

Generally speaking, I find the political rants tend to come out more during the business meeting, which gives me an opportunity to either mitigate the rant or shut them off. It's going to happen. I don't know of any chapter that isn't going to have people that lean in both political directions, and that is going to come out at times. However, how you handle it as a chapter leader can make all the difference. After all, we aren't there for the common politics. We are there because we love aviation. So keep a focus on what we have in common rather than our differences.

-CubBuilder

steveinindy
05-22-2013, 10:41 PM
Are you sure? It was still there a couple years ago, I drove by to visit. Google maps & bing still show it.

I'd post the coordinates but Google has changed their interface again & I cant figure out how. Just east of Avon north of Highway 36

I live basically in Avon. Yeah, it's not there in any usable fashion. I don't know if it's actually been bulldozed yet, but when I last went out there, it was as good as gone with crumbling material all that is left. There's not enough money in my coffers to justify repaving the runway. I agree that it was always a nice little airport and I was sad to see it go.



Maybe so so but the Left wing is well represented on this web site voicing their unwanted opinions and has painted the EAA another color as well.

I can't think of a single left wing person on this website honestly. As for the comment....that was obviously a wise crack and not a dig to anyone not looking to get their feathers ruffled.


So, I mentioned right wing only because they are very vocal in my chapter.
Same problem around here.


Could it be that you maybe said some Tonge and cheek comments in the meeting that contributed to this enviorment?

Perhaps but when- at least around here- you hear open and frank discussion about politics more than you hear discussion about homebuilding, it's enough to make those of us who aren't politically dyed in the wool and get tired of the paranoia want to run screaming. If I wanted to listen to the pseudo-conservative conspiracy theories and accusations of being a 'closeted liberal' because I have a view that is in line more with the Eisenhower-era Republican Party than the Tea Party, I would just go spend time around my fiancee's parents. ;)

Jim Heffelfinger
05-22-2013, 11:40 PM
I posed this question to the forum in part because I want to remind myself and encourage others who might allow distraction from the mission of recruitment and retention of all stripes for chapter health.

RV8505
05-23-2013, 12:04 AM
I was following you until you got to the Glen Beck remark. Although you thought it to be in jest, It seemed a little hypocritical to me. I don't want to hear any of that political B.S. from the Left or Right at the airport.

Jim Heffelfinger
05-23-2013, 08:06 PM
There is no doubt that the "greatest generation " is feeling ... well a bit left out. Technology has eclipsed so many things that were "standards" in their lives. Just look at aviation alone... panel full of gauges - now a port for an ipad and EFIS screen. Carbon composites allowing shapes and weights that were unheard of 20 years ago let alone 40. My dad is 89 this year. He is not doing well but when he is his world is a large senior living complex - they have access to amazing recreations and travels - he is happy puttering in the model train room - as he has for the last 15 years. All the people he socializes with are 70+ - young children are clearly unwelcome. This will not be my generation - and definitely not me. I look forward to having more diversity - in all stripes- in my life and will do what I can in my chapter to keep it going and not end up as nearly 300 other chapters have done.
A side note - chapters - there have been many chapters that have "closed" over the decade. Closed because they did not recruit - young eagles were too young to fill the ranks. Eagles - now there is the person we need to bring in. I am glad national has formally established this mentorship program. These will be the next keepers of the flame.

1600vw
05-24-2013, 05:15 AM
The clubs in my area will be gone once these people are gone. No new members and the ones whom do try and join really are not welcome if they want to do anything besides sit in a chair and talk aviation or whatever they talk about. The big thing in my area with clubs are breakfast, they live and breath for this and not much else. So if you mention a club to me I think of a group of people whom only hold breakfast, not one is building or flying anything in my area. They go no where as a club or do anything but eat as a club. Really not my idea of a club. Now all the rest of you whom have active clubs can tell me how great your club is...But that is not what we have here in Central IL. If you have a club within 1 hour of Springfield IL and you build and fly as a club I would love to hear from you......

1600vw
05-24-2013, 05:23 AM
I have given up on this idea of a club and just excepted the idea I will be flying alone and always will be by myself when it comes to aviation. I have found others in my area whom have the same style of flying as me, meaning more UL style flying in calm weather and only in single seat but not one of them want anything to do with a club. They say its not for them and after seeing what is offered for clubs, I see why they feel this way, today I say the same thing......

Mike Switzer
05-24-2013, 09:23 AM
The club in Bloomington, IL actually has builders. A bit far for me to drive given the price of fuel.

JimRice85
05-24-2013, 09:01 PM
Memphis actually has a pretty good chapter. Unfortunately, their meeting schedule/location (far side of the city and Class B) doesn't work well for me. While a member, I typically only make 2-3 meetings a year. Fortunately, a significant number of the guys at my home field are also EAA and we are all pretty good friends so I have a great group to call upon for help, if needed.

I was fairly active with our EAA chapter when I was in San Antonio. The group was fairly diverse and there were all kinds of events and activities. I rarely missed a meeting and attended many events.

I started a chapter in Lawton, OK while stationed there. I was President and Newsletter Editor (and wrote 99% of it) for three years. Members wanted to be entertained and did very little. The local FBO owners was a very good friend and supportive with meeting space and use of shop for presentations. When it was time for me to step down, the chapter folded because no one would step up.

There are all kinds of chapters out there. Some are pretty good. Others, not so much.

1600vw
05-25-2013, 03:59 AM
The club in Bloomington, IL actually has builders. A bit far for me to drive given the price of fuel.

Mike I would have to agree, Bloomington is a bit far to drive. I see you are in the same boat as I.

Jim Heffelfinger
05-28-2013, 09:49 AM
Carl - Sounds like your chapter has turned a VERY important corner for keeping the chapter alive. I pass on this advice - don't stop recruitment efforts. To not back fill with younger members will lead to the state of many - collapsing very slowly.

cub builder
05-28-2013, 01:26 PM
Wow. This thread is incredibly revealing about the folks that haunt these blogs. Lots of complaining about chapters or chapter members. Some bickering over just the hint of politics. With the exception of the two Jims, no positive comments about the EAA or EAA chapters. Hopefully I'm wrong here, but I perceive a complete unwillingness to step up and attempt to address any of the issues listed. :(

-CubBuilder

Mike Switzer
05-28-2013, 02:47 PM
Wow. This thread is incredibly revealing about the folks that haunt these blogs. Lots of complaining about chapters or chapter members. Some bickering over just the hint of politics. With the exception of the two Jims, no positive comments about the EAA or EAA chapters.

Hey now - I believe I made a positive comment about the chapter in Bloomington. If I didn't live over an hour away I would join that chapter. Actually, I know of people that live farther away than I do that are members of that chapter - but my truck gets 15 mpg max & diesel is well over $4/gallon around here. Plus, being self employed I tend to work at least 12 hours per day.

steveinindy
05-28-2013, 05:06 PM
Wow. This thread is incredibly revealing about the folks that haunt these blogs. Lots of complaining about chapters or chapter members. Some bickering over just the hint of politics. With the exception of the two Jims, no positive comments about the EAA or EAA chapters. Hopefully I'm wrong here, but I perceive a complete unwillingness to step up and attempt to address any of the issues listed. :(

-CubBuilder

If you look back over my posts, you will find that I have plenty of good things to say about the EAA and I have been a contributor to The Experimenter. My issue is mostly with the local chapters which I long ago recognized as immovable objects and I wish to attempt to address the issues in a way that is likely to yield results. Trying to dislodge entrenched troublemakers is next to impossible so I am being positive and trying to find a beneficial way to help the local homebuilding community.

Trevor Janz
05-30-2013, 03:58 PM
Thank you Jim for starting this thread...excellent question. We get this question a lot here at the Chapter office in Oshkosh. Many of our chapters are referred to as "good ole boy clubs"...and that is painful to hear. Our mission at EAA is to grow participation in aviation thru our chapter network and most importantly bring in new younger members and share that the dream of flight can become a reality. With our new Eagle Flight program....qualify that friend, neighbor, relative...that has always thought about getting their pilots license...have them join the EAA FAmily thru your chapter...take them on that Eagle Flight...then mentor them (the entire Chapter can mentor them)....here at HQ we want to be able to provide tools for your chapter to grow and thrive!

Jim Heffelfinger
05-30-2013, 07:31 PM
Thanks Trevor for your view. I have found that there is an extremely high correlation between my chapter challenges and chapters nationally. This is only one.
Once a chapter has a "specific personality" is is really hard to re-blend it as the personalities seem to ward off change.
How do you rebuild a chapter - a deliberate effort - one family at a time.
Thank leadership for creating the Eagles program. It is time to fill the gap. I hope HQ can strike a deal with some of the same sponsors as the YE program ( or at least special consideration) has.

1600vw
05-31-2013, 06:25 AM
Wow. This thread is incredibly revealing about the folks that haunt these blogs. Lots of complaining about chapters or chapter members. Some bickering over just the hint of politics. With the exception of the two Jims, no positive comments about the EAA or EAA chapters. Hopefully I'm wrong here, but I perceive a complete unwillingness to step up and attempt to address any of the issues listed. :(

-CubBuilder

Just because we bring up issues that are holding back these clubs does not make us " negative " as you state. So with your way of thinking if you see a problem and bring it up you are " Negative"

My Dad told me....You do not need to know all the answers, just know where to find the answers....

I have tried and tried to find the answers I seek for the problems I am having with my airplane. Without support I am done. I have tried and tried with no luck to solve this problem.

You want to talk negative, go to some of these clubs we mention here and mention you want to change the way they do things...You will hear nothing but negative this and negative that. They will give you a 100 reasons why they do what they do and it will all be negative about aviation. When I heard this after joining a club after buying my first airplane, I thought to myself, why are these guys even doing this if non fly for fear of flying...Everyone had a story as to why they do not fly...and fear was the common word or thought.

One man whom is way over weight today, I asked why not loose some weight and fly again. He then tells me about a flight where he put her in the corn field after about 7 tries trying to land in a crosswind. You could see it when he was talking about this he was scared of flying. Every member of this club had a similar story.

In my mind I thought..This is a training problem for these folks and I am not letting this be me or my story.

So I have been plugging along and trying to deal with this. The man whom can build anything and work on anything really does not need the club. Its folks like me whom never build but want to fly a homebuilt whom need the help, and then man whom builds kinda looks down his nose at us whom do not have that knowledge to build. All you have to do is follow some of my posts on not only this forum but others and you will see this.

So do not call me negative for bringing up problems I see but call me proactive in trying to change things. But I gave up on this and am about ready to give up on aviation all together, sell my airplane and move on.

The president of this club told me..Quote..You see and hear enough about people dieing doing this and you will not want to fly either.

Bill Berson
05-31-2013, 09:09 AM
Yeh, I was reading FLYING yesterday and half the issue was about death in aviation. Why would anyone want to get involved?
If you can't find a fun EAA chapter, go to the local RC model club.
When our grumpy EAA chapter shut down, most of the active members moved to the RC club, where all things aviation are discussed, and RC crashing is expected and part of the fun.

cub builder
05-31-2013, 09:28 AM
Bash away if you like. My point is that those behaviors listed in this thread can be addressed by the chapter leadership. If your local chapter has some of those issues, you can do something about it. I've been there and done that, so have a difficult time accepting it when people tell me it can't be done. I also recognize that not everyone is cut out to be a leader. To be perfectly honest, I still don't believe I am.

I don't think I used the word negative anywhere in my post, so certainly didn't call anyone negative. I only cited the lack of POSITIVE comments. By all means, air out your complaints. Every chapter, including my own, has it's problems. Sharing the problems as well as the solutions is important. But if you're unwilling to get involved to effect solutions, why complain?

I'd like to think this thread is about improving the chapters. Perhaps I was wrong about the intent?

-CubBuilder

Trevor Janz
05-31-2013, 09:52 AM
I was talking with Paul Poberezny and ask him his opinion...he said that the destruction of a chapter is due to lack of leadership. I think of the quote......the speed of the leader determines the rate of the pack. You have to have a strong leader(s) to move things forward. Members do have to rise up...get the people motivated, vote people out...or, yes...start another chapter. Here at the chapter office, we welcome the opportunity to help you with forming a new chapter...get 10 motivated members and move forward.

1600vw
05-31-2013, 11:04 AM
I was talking with Paul Poberezny and ask him his opinion...he said that the destruction of a chapter is due to lack of leadership. I think of the quote......the speed of the leader determines the rate of the pack. You have to have a strong leader(s) to move things forward. Members do have to rise up...get the people motivated, vote people out...or, yes...start another chapter. Here at the chapter office, we welcome the opportunity to help you with forming a new chapter...get 10 motivated members and move forward.

First I would like to say thank you to folks like yourself whom are out there working for us everyday.

But finding 10 members is like asking me to fly my plane to California. Now do not get me wrong. I know of 10 people whom do not belong to any clubs but that is the problem, they don;t even belong to the EAA, AOPA, or any club. They want to be left alone to do what they do. I have mentioned this a couple of student pilots I know and they have no interest in any clubs, EAA or anything. These folks are going after there SP certificate and want nothing to do with anything like this. They go to their CFI for all answers, you will never see them post on a forum like this either.

The first thing I did after I fell in love with aviation was look for a club of others with my interests. Sitting and talking aviation is fine for a while...I want to fly and work on what we fly, not talk about how it use to be.....

Bill Berson
05-31-2013, 03:24 PM
My local chapter dissolved because the all volunteer leaders and members at my local chapter were disappointed with the leadership at EAA headquarters. At that time getting people motivated and voting in new leaders at EAA headquarters wasn't an option.

I do hope Pelton continues to expect the new leaders, from top to bottom, to all serve as volunteers (as he is) That will help motivate future leaders,I hope.
Also, it might motivate more grass roots participation if members had a real vote.

cub builder
05-31-2013, 03:51 PM
Bill... This subject deserves it's own thread. I hope you don't mind, but I quoted your post and started a new thread with it rather than hijacking this thread.

-Cubbuilder

Trevor Janz
05-31-2013, 03:57 PM
Hello Bill...thank you for your post. How long ago did it dissolve?
Rest assured that the team here at the Chapter Office is new (myself, Jeff Skiles and Bret Steffen). We came from EAA Chapters and all of us have been attending convention since the 1970's...earlier for Jeff...he attended Rockford. I was frustrated with a few things as well, when I was not here at HQ...when I took the Chapter Manager roll...number one on my agenda was to get back in touch with the chapters...the chapters make all EAA programs successful...it is the can do attitude of the chapter members that to this day amazes me. As I traveled this past Fall and Winter (will be traveling to chapters after convention) we met over 3,000 members combined and it really motivated me to know that the chapters are alive and doing great out there! I want to bottle up what many of these chapters are doing and provide it to other chapters that are struggling. I hope thru our channels of communications - ChapterGram, e-Hotline, Sport Aviation, Chapter Chat Webinars, direct emails to Chapter leaders...we are able to work with all chapters to grow and be successful. We can build aircraft...we can build relationships....like Paul has always told me...it is not the airplanes Trevor....it is the people! 1600VV....I know those kinds of people and you will never change their mind...but, you have the right attitude and most of the time that can be contagious...so, surround yourself with other aviators like yourself! I would hope it would be at an EAA Chapter.

Bill Berson
05-31-2013, 04:38 PM
Trevor,
I don't remember dates well, probably about 5 years ago. It was when EAA dropped insurance support for local fly-ins or something, I think.
For chapter 1026, the annual Port Townsend Fly-in was pretty much the chapters main event.
Nobody wanted to be President, fear of liability, I think. A big argument about liability started, and the current president said this is the last meeting and that was it for the club and the annual fly-in.

Mike Switzer
05-31-2013, 04:44 PM
Bill - Our flying club (not affiliated with EAA) buys officer's & directors liability insurance. I don't know that I would be comfortable being a maintenance officer without it.

Trevor Janz
06-03-2013, 10:28 AM
Thanks Bill. A lot has transpired in 5 years. Not sure if you knew...but we had a fatal crash at an EAA event on the West Coast. It was a nasty lawsuit that we lost. So, we pulled out of Sun n Fun and other venues that EAA started...we hated to do that...but were forced to do that by our underwriters. Liability will always be an issue in aviation and the society we live in...but, we have one of the best insurance coverage for an EAA chapter now...$1 Million coverage...and you can have an event daily if you wish. We also have a list of all the things that covers on line....or I can send you a copy. Our Risk Management wants to make sure that the chapters are having events, growing and thriving...just so long as it is covered. Let me know if you would like to get another chapter going.

Dave Stadt
06-03-2013, 11:06 PM
Thanks Bill. A lot has transpired in 5 years. Not sure if you knew...but we had a fatal crash at an EAA event on the West Coast. It was a nasty lawsuit that we lost. So, we pulled out of Sun n Fun and other venues that EAA started...we hated to do that...but were forced to do that by our underwriters. Liability will always be an issue in aviation and the society we live in...but, we have one of the best insurance coverage for an EAA chapter now...$1 Million coverage...and you can have an event daily if you wish. We also have a list of all the things that covers on line....or I can send you a copy. Our Risk Management wants to make sure that the chapters are having events, growing and thriving...just so long as it is covered. Let me know if you would like to get another chapter going.


Trevor,

The main reason I have walked away from being a chapter member, part of chapter leadership and flying young eagles is due to liability. Nowdays one million in liability insurance is hardly worth talking about. Have also never understood what the million dollars covered. Does it cover attorney fees and judgement or just judgement? I have been part of other not for profit organizations and their officer and director insurance was in the 5 to 10 million dollar area. We own a hangar that we rent out and I would not consider a million dollar umbrella liability policy. One can never be totally protected but multi-million dollar umbrella liabilities policies are now pretty much the norm.

Dave Stadt

Bill Berson
06-04-2013, 07:51 PM
Thanks Bill. A lot has transpired in 5 years. Not sure if you knew...but we had a fatal crash at an EAA event on the West Coast. It was a nasty lawsuit that we lost. So, we pulled out of Sun n Fun and other venues that EAA started...we hated to do that...but were forced to do that by our underwriters. Liability will always be an issue in aviation and the society we live in...but, we have one of the best insurance coverage for an EAA chapter now...$1 Million coverage...and you can have an event daily if you wish. We also have a list of all the things that covers on line....or I can send you a copy. Our Risk Management wants to make sure that the chapters are having events, growing and thriving...just so long as it is covered. Let me know if you would like to get another chapter going.

I thought the $10 million loss was reversed on appeal. Or was that a separate Arlington lawsuit?

Jim Heffelfinger
06-05-2013, 12:45 PM
Last few posts a bit off the topic. Glad to see lots of views - I (we) need to be vigilant on "chatter" and how it might be viewed by an outsider to the chapter - eg. guests. Ran into the same problem in another yahoogroup just the other day. Always being as inclusive as possible.

Bill Berson
06-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Trevor,
Reading through the chapter forming rules, I suppose any group of ten could form a new chapter if they don't like the current chapter.
I mentioned this to an aviation friend and he responded: He said that he doesn't (and most others) simply don't have the time or desire to be a volunteer club officer. He said: "why do you even need chapter officers?"

A large population might have plenty of volunteers, but not my small town. A group of ten will usually have only one good volunteer, so who runs the club after the first guy moves on?

Bill Greenwood
06-11-2013, 09:45 PM
Jim, if you want a little balance in your chapter, just invite me out and pay for the airline ride. I am between 40 and 70 and definitely can spout the other side to offset your starboard wing nuts. Hey, for a little more reimbursement, I can even spout the right wing nut stuff as I have heard plenty of it growing up in Texas.

I haven't been to Sacremento, but learned to fly in San Diego and used to attend several of the better airshows at Chino, Merced,Madera, etc.

As for leaving some subject at the door, in my opinion any adult with half a brain ought to be able to convese about anything. You or the other side might learn something and if not, so what if in the end you disagree. A person that is afraid of an idea must have a pretty small opinion of their own mind.
I have read that the Revernd Wright used to encourage varied and spirited discussion and even debate among the Bros and their sister and the boys could and did even switch sides and try to see what the other side was.
But then, that is only the way genius did it, who are we to emulate them.

I do enjoy going to Oshkosh where even if most of the crowd, especially the wealthier owners are likely Republicans, most eveyone is there to get along with each other.