PDA

View Full Version : Parking Problems at Oshkosh



vaflier
09-03-2011, 07:24 PM
While I and my friends had a great time at Oshkosh this year there were some problems. Especially with the parking Nazi. She was truly something. I was polite , friendly, courteous, and patient. She was none of the above. She gave a very poor representation of the spirit of EAA. I was upset enough by her behaviour that I went to the registration building and lodged a complaint with a gentleman , who informed me that I was the 9th complaint that morning concerning this individual. He further told me that he had received numerous complaints about her the day before as well, and had spoken with the higher ups including a VP , and felt that his concerns had been " Blown OFF ". He plainly stated that he had done all that he could, and unfortunately expected nothing to come of it. It turns out that this young lady was purported to be the daughter of one of the people in charge of aircraft parking. While I understand that not all of the people she came into contact with would be as friendly and polite as I was, I would suggest that starting a conversation about a problem by ranting and raving is probably not going to get the best reaction. There were many other people in the north forty who had similar experiences with her over the course of the event. She was really peeved that someone had authorised us to park in an area that she did not want us to be. We had proper registration and were in a numbered lane which was a proper parking area. What really made me mad was that, as she left she was yelling that " She would personally gaurantee that we would not be parking there next year ! "
I am very disturbed that we will not be allowed to camp with our friends next year. That is a big part of the event , to spend time with your friends ! If we are forced to be spread all over the grounds then what is the point. Surely there must be a way to accomodate groups that come in at different times. The gentleman at the registration building suggested that If I felt strongly about the matter, I should contact a Vice President or Mr Hightower. I left several messages at the main headquarters building requesting a call from Mr Hightower. To date I have heard nothing !. I realise that Mr. Hightower is a very busy man and I truly did not expect a call from him during Oshkosh. Enough time has now passed that beleive he has had time to " Catch Up "

Mr Hightower , I again ask for a moment of your time to discuss the concerns of myself and my friends.

Randy Powell
EAA # 820213

flyingriki
09-03-2011, 09:11 PM
Randy I hope you'll keep us informed of how this turns out. There will always be the little power monsters in volunteering that have never been in control of others before and get stupid about it. I relieved a guy at a gate once, long after my time was done, because he was being such a jerk and I felt the gate needed a smile rather than a tyrant. But it's the management that needs to address this nonsense and it will be interesting to see if they do, or if they really have grown beyond giving a hoot. Oh, I'm sure you'll hear the platitudes from moderators etc. but will anything come of it....really? Good luck.
PS: Just to be fair, the folks I dealt with were great this year. Crappy facilities for $22 a night to sleep on dirt (3 night minimum!) but great volunteers.

Bill Greenwood
09-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Randy, Your statement seems very fairly and calmly stated. Please pursue it with EAA. Don't just let them brush you off. There are too many nice people in EAA to let a few ruin it.
It will be interesting to see if this new man, Hightower? is just a pr oriented yes man, who puts on a good front or who really gets down to the lower levels and keeps EAA as it ought to be.
I have hopes.

scoltharp
09-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Although I did not get involvedwith the young lady that you talk of I have my own gripe about the parking procedures in the North 40. A group of us from the Tulsa area have been meeting and camping around row 557 since 1998. We always arrive two days before the event starts so we will not not interrupt the heavy flow of airplanes by asking for a specific row. That row is never filled when we arrive. Actually that row is about as far away from "front row center" as you can get and most folks don't like to park that far out. We like it because we can go through the hole in the wall several times a day and get our supplies. Our procedure is to make a sign for the window with a large 557 on it and one for GAC. In years past there was no problem - the parkers would just wave us on and we would taxi over and park ourselves. This year the parkers said NO and made us park on whatever row was filling up at the time. The volunteer leader that parked me said we could not park over there - we had to park in the order we arrived. He also stated that "the special parking caused too many problems in 2010"(it seemed to me that in 2010 the parking problem was all the mud and soft areas). Three of our bunch parked within a few rows of each other this year simply because we came in together and none of us got waved off to the netherlands.

We were not able to enojy our evening "cook outs" because it was just too much hassle to get on the bus, go around to the hole in the wall, walk over to the store,get groceries, supplies and get back to the bus and back to our camping area. The evening camaraderie with my friends from Tulsa and other friends that we have gotten to know through the years by parking in our favorite area is the main reason for me enjoying Oshkosh for the last 12 years. I will not be returning to Oshkosh!

Kyle Boatright
09-04-2011, 02:52 PM
I will not be returning to Oshkosh!

One parking problem and you're not going back?

Why not find the parking chairman and ask if the direction you were given this year is a new policy, and if so, ask it the policy could be changed? Alternately, if the volunteers just took it upon themselves to create a new rule, the parking chairman could probably address that with a little better training for the volunteers.

jbeech
09-05-2011, 07:01 AM
My own business deals with several flying events each year. Thus, I know from experience dedicated volunteers are hard to find. There's an unfortunate byproduct of depending on volunteers, which leaves event organizers caught on the horns of a dilemma. To wit, matching up the available skills to the diverse jobs (because unlike a business, you must deal with the resources, e.g. people, you have).

Parking, for example, is a hot, dirty, and rather thankless job. Moreover, it requires dogged determination (more so than native intelligence). The fact they have roped someone into the job year after year provides ample proof the organization has found the round peg for the round hole. Thus, instead of kvetching about this person, be thankful they've got someone dumb enough for the essentially no-win job whom doesn't require monetary remuneration!

Of course, there's an alternative. Folks unhappy with the status quo can always volunteer their own time to be the replacement parking nazi. Somehow I rather suspect they'd be welcomed by the organization with open arms.

Lrrryo
09-05-2011, 08:55 AM
Yes, parking together is a HUGE issue with this event, and the reason that I go. If I couldn't be with friends, I'd pass too.

John, I can appreciate what you say, but regardless of the difficulty and disgusting the job is, there's no reason not to do it right.

For years, I've had good luck arriving with friends or getting into a specific area without an issue, but a few years back it became an issue so I started arriving with the Bonanza's to OSH group, which is a great choice. There's still some big issues on how we are handled that could be solved with a little education which would not be hard. However, when one gets condescending and threatening, there's no place for them.

Yes, this needs to be brought to higher attention and solved.

Larryo

Hangar10
09-05-2011, 09:00 AM
Of course, there's an alternative. Folks unhappy with the status quo can always volunteer their own time to be the replacement parking nazi. Somehow I rather suspect they'd be welcomed by the organization with open arms.

That may very well be the answer in some cases, but many of those that are disgruntled have volunteered themselves for decades and are no longer physically willing or able to patrol hot and dusty flight lines for hours. I personally know several people who have made their last trip to Oshkosh due solely to the fact that they are unable to park where they want to, close to one another. One has hundreds of YE flights in his log, another has worked tirelessly for our local chapter, and continues to do so. Telling them to "buck up and volunteer" is no way to treat these guys who just want to enjoy the organization and event that THEY helped build and sustain.

I doubt that Paul would appreciate knowing of the way this situation has been handled. Having mud and water in 2010 is one thing... but being scattered about just because parking airplanes is "hard"... come on... get someone out there with a little common sense and take care of the people who bother to fly in. If a pilot wants to park in a particular area that has available parking, they ought to be able to do so. Many groups plan well in advance in order to park, camp, eat and visit with each other. "scoltharp" even states that they arrive early in order to secure their preferred row. What is the problem? I was there all week... the N-40 was nowhere near full and the row 557 area was pretty thin until maybe Thursday, at which time there were a few airplanes scattered about. Keep it up and parking will become less and less of a problem as the crowd gets thinner and thinner. Is that what we want?

Funny how Scholler campers are allowed to arrive early in order to secure their preferred campsite. But pilots? No, you must go where we tell you. How about this... next year, try telling RV campers that they must start filling Camp Scholler in order of arrival from the back to the front, or the front to the back, or which ever manner someone ELSE thinks makes good sense. See how that flies! Sounds crazy right? Well, that is what is happening to our pilots. Let's just turn the whole thing into an RV campground and not deal with those pesky, hard to park small airplanes.

FlyingRon
09-05-2011, 09:21 AM
I work Vintage parking. I know the chairman of both the north end flight line operations and the south side (vintage). Both sides are looking at constant improvement so posting here (and if you want I can send you direct contact information if you're unable to locate it otherwise).

I'm not sure what point you're making about Scholler. The rules there are pretty much the same as for airplanes. These guys get there early (sometimes months early), set up, and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) PAY for the spot from that time until the end of the show (with the possibility of an early departure credit after the fact). Similar things happen in vintage. If you arrive and have a pre setup (and paid) camp site and can communicate that, we'll put you in there if at all possible. Of course, when we have a mass arrival (while we don't tend to get things the size of the Cessna, Mooney, or Bonanza arrivals, we do get groups of type club arrivals). At that point, we do have to enmass park them together. Nobody has enough time to allow people to just randomly go picking out spots leaving spacing to themselves.

However, one should calm down before posting here. Nobody is inclined to do anything for people who shout (either in person or in all caps and bold font) or call people Nazi's no matter how poorly you are treated.

James Scheibner
09-05-2011, 01:17 PM
Note: I use the term “Them” as gender neutral and there is truly more than one person that has impacted us in a negative manner.
Randy, I too have had similar experiences with "Them" over the last few years. Granted, 2010 was a complete cluster due to Mother Nature, but we managed to get where we wanted that year. But this year and 2009 were an absolute joke when it came to "Their" customer service/ relations and several EAA members that I have spoken with in the North 40.

I must start out with a "tip of the hat" to the most of the Volunteers who make AirVenture possible and to EAA itself. It’s quite an effort to make something this large work so well (for the most part). Being a retail aviation business owner and airport manager the last 18 years has given me a well-balanced perspective on how to work with people and the demands that come with it.

Our family and friends have been regular North 40 campers each summer since 1992 and have always have been welcomed and treated very well. My wife and I loved the place so much that we decided to elope and get married here back on opening day 1996 (Reverend Ed Riddick presiding!) EAA staff was outstanding in helping us and we maintain a close connection with those that have become our friends. Our children have known no summers without Oshkosh (AirVenture) and we hope to keep it that way, but recent experiences threaten to alter this dream.

We use to do the same thing with the "Row 553" sign to get us where we needed. Always arriving 7am on Saturday morning when traffic was light and no one was close to the northwest side. This was never a problem or issue. We were greeted normally by the ground crew, given our slips or registration and fueling by the same smiling folks every year. We got to know some of the crew by name and they too remembered us as the "310" on the North corner.

We stay the entire week plus. In the beginning, it was purely a vacation type of trip for us, but it morphed into a combination business/vacation trip as I became involved with a major aircraft manufacturer as an area representative. Subsequently, we have a large aircraft, with a large tent and screen house for our family of 4 plus all of our local EAA chapter (1497) members that try to camp close to us and all our "Oshkosh" friends we have made over the years. People know where to find us and gather with us to enjoy great aviation camaraderie. Here are a few EAA photos and links:
http://www.eaa.org/apps/galleries/gallery.aspx?ID=194461


http://www.eaa.org/apps/galleries/gallery.aspx?ID=194
462

http://www.eaa.org/apps/galleries/gallery.aspx?ID=194
463



This year we were informed that this was no longer possible. "They" refused our request, even after hearing a plea from an EAA official (EAA Board Member and business acquaintance that assured me that what we were doing was quite OK with EAA.) Many of the volunteers around seemed almost embarrassed by their lack of diplomacy and looked the other way! This was not the first time I've spoken with “them”, and they seemed quite pleased with how they denied our polite request.

We took an alternative plan and secured an area behind the Super 8 hotel to camp as plan "B" (you might have seen our "Chapter in Excile" sign next to our Chapter banner there). When I approached “them” again with the request and this time with the specter of actually chasing paying customers off field, “they” were not even interested in our request. We then informed them of our moving the aircraft to the North Gate to unload and set the aircraft for the week in parking. “They” sternly warned us not to permanently set up over where we wanted to camp and subsequently had EAA Security follow us and sit there and watch us unload the aircraft. The whole episode was ridiculous and honestly quite embarrassing for EAA.

We watched for the rest of the week as other parties tried to do as in the past (traditions), they were greeted with the same treatment and degrading behavior. There were a few who had staked their placed on Thursday before AirVenture, well before our arrival and were able to stay where they set-up, but were scolded later on for doing so and treated poorly as well.

We've been told several things by different parties of what the issues are and not once do they come together to make any sense. We're completely baffled by this change in attitude and seek to find a reasonable explanation.

I purposely held off publicly airing this issue because I'm not one to complain without being armed with reasonable solutions, but we also need to hear the issues that are driving this change. It is time to put the issue forward with those in charge and hope that Mr. Powell's comments along with myself and others be addressed. I know personally of many more out there that have had the same experience as we have and hope to work towards a resolution that benefits EAA and its member’s traditions. After all, we are members as well as customers. No one should be treated that way.

James Scheibner
EAA 525344

Jeff Point
09-05-2011, 05:55 PM
I don’t have any direct knowledge of the situation in the North 40 this year or the parties involved, but I am a parking chairman in the homebuilt area, and I have a few thoughts about this situation. I guess that means I’m dumb enough to be in charge of the folks who are dumb enough to get roped into this hot, thankless job. ;) As several have noted, the majority of the volunteers are friendly and helpful, as it should be. As always there are a few bad apples, and since the volunteers mostly work with loose supervision, it is important that we get feedback on how people are performing. This year in particular I had several new volunteers and the feedback I got from pilots helped me to coach my charges along in the right direction. On the other hand, just like Cool Hand Luke, there are some men you just can’t reach, and I’ve had to un-invite volunteers from our ranks. Yes it does happen.

That said, before rushing to any snap judgments, I’d really like to hear the other side of this one. With all respect to the OP, while his descriptions of this volunteers’ actions are over the top, his account is clearly written in the light most favorable to himself. There are always two sides to every story. While we (the parking crews) try to make every reasonable effort to accommodate special requests, there are times when it just ain’t going to work. There can be a number of reasons for this, and when things are busy there isn’t time to get into a lengthy discussion about it. This is the World’s-Busiest-and-Most-Crowded-Airport, not the pancake breakfast at Peapatch Airport. There needs to be standardization, and things need to work in a certain way, in order to make everything work safely and efficiently. This applies to ground operations and parking just as much as it does to the Fisk arrival. When I see pilots who can’t follow simple hand signals or directions, I often wonder if they are the same ones who can’t seem to follow a simple 90kt conga line up the train tracks?

The method behind the madness may not be obvious or even make sense to you, with your limited perspective, but there are reasons for everything we do. And, some times that runs up against your desire to receive special treatment. While we try to accommodate as many people as possible, we also realize that, “there ain’t no making everybody happy.” However, we do take feedback like this and look for ways to improve on things for next year. Realize though, that one person’s “improvement” is another person’s step in the wrong direction.

To the OP and anyone else who has a grievance with the procedures- I strongly encourage you to seek out the appropriate person and make your complaint known. If there are any lingering gripes out there about the homebuilt area, I’d like to know about it (yes I know we need more showers, we’re working on that.) However, understand that the paid staff at HQ actually has very little to do with the parking operations, which are run and managed entirely by the volunteer corps.

vaflier
09-05-2011, 08:20 PM
Flying Ron said , However, one should calm down before posting here. Nobody is inclined to do anything for people who shout (either in person or in all caps and bold font) or call people Nazi's no matter how poorly you are treated.

Ron, If you or anyone else felt that in my original post I was "shouting", then I apologise as that was not my intent. As far as the term "Parking Nazi" , this was a nickname given to this individual by someone whom I do not know. She was pretty well known in the North Forty by this nickname, which she truthfully earned. Her behaviour was reprehensible. It was my intention by posting in this forum to try and get the attention of Mr Hightower and perhaps gain a few minutes of his time to make him aware of the severity of the problem and seek solutions. You see my goal is not to place blame, but to bring a problem into the open and look for solutions that work for all. Someone else posted that some of the volunteers are dumb. I strongly disagree !. Everyone I came into contact with were intelligent people, including the young lady previousley mentioned.
As far as seeking out the apropriate person and making my complaint known, I did exactly that, and was told there was nothing they could do to help as they had already gone " up the ladder " and they were convinced that nothing would change. I followed their advice and spent quite a bit of time attempting to contact Mr Hightower, to no avail. Posting in this forum as I have done, is just a continuation of trying to contact the apropriate person. I would very much like to discuss this issue with him and suggest a possible solution to the problem, which I believe would work for all involved. I am less concerned with her behaviour, than I am with the larger issues of parking for next year. If we cannot gather with our friends then we will be less inclined to attend. This should not be a big problem to fix. It simply needs attention. So if you will allow me I will say again .


Mr Hightower, I would very much apreciate a few moments of your time to dicuss this issue. I await your call.

Randy Powell
EAA # 820213

Kevin O'Halloran
09-06-2011, 12:30 PM
Randy
you are not alone
call me on my cell phone tonight
580 515 4658
Kevin

Hal Bryan
09-07-2011, 07:04 AM
Hi Randy -

I just wanted to check in and let you know you haven't been forgotten. Rod is out of the office this week, but Adam Smith, one of our Vice Presidents and AirVenture point person, is planning on trying to get in touch with you today.

I know he read this thread over the weekend, and, since I sit pretty close to his office, I also know he made a few phone calls to some other staff yesterday in response to the concerns you raised.

Hopefully, you two will be able to talk today at some point.

Thanks -

Hal

Bill Greenwood
09-07-2011, 01:35 PM
Hal, we had a little problem, not with the parking itself, but with one of the people.
We came in Sat about 5pm, and they had us land on the last dot on 36, all the way at the south end. I guess I could and maybe should have asked for 27, but it was busy enough that I didn't want to talk on the radio. So we had to taxi all the way from down south to the north 40 on the grass. No real problem, just worried about the prop clearance as we bounced along. The were flagmen all the way, lot's of CAP and some orange shirts.
We wanted to park near the motels where we were staying. The CAP boys pointed over by the terminal, but a nice guy, Jim in an orange shirt on a small cycle came up and we got to park where we wanted.
We took a few minutes to relax and then my co pilot tied down the plane. As I was getting the bags out, a guy drove up in a blue pickup that said security. He just sat there staring at us, or at the plane, a C-182 that had pulled into the line next to us. There were about 4 or 5 planes in our row, lot's of other spaces and empty rows.
We had bags, as did the family next to us, and it was hot; so I walked over to the pickup to ask if he might give us a ride over to the fence. I can't remember all he said, but he was not there to help, despite having an empty truck bed. He gave me some stuff about a plane not following flagmen directions, and parking wrong. Mostly he then clamed up and really I could not carry on a conversation with him, and even try to find out what the problem was. There were 3 planes already parked in the row when I pulled up beside them. He just did not seem like an EAA guy, and I 'd be willing to bet $100 that his normal job is to hassle people. I think he is some type of rent a security, had a real short military type haircut, and I think perhaps a cop uniform or similar. Not EAA.
I did ask him what the problem was, and how he knew about it, and he said he was called over the radio.
I really got a hostile feeling from him. Fortunately after a few minutes, Jim came back on his cycle, and I told him about the problem, and he went over and talked to the cop type and we left. The next morning all our planes were there as before, except the 182 was gone. There were a few more planes parked in the row behind us, still plenty of room.

Hal Bryan
09-07-2011, 03:07 PM
I'm sorry to hear about the gruff treatment, Bill - I especially hate to hear about anyone not getting a ride when they need one. When I'm out on my cart, I'm almost always late for everything, as I take pride in never turning down someone's request for a lift. :) And I'm glad that Jim seemed to be in the proper spirit and was willing to help steer you where you wanted to go.

Anyway, I know Adam is actively reading and participating in the forums, but I'll make double-sure he sees this story in addition to the info he got from Randy.

Paul8661
09-07-2011, 03:27 PM
This was my first time attending and flying into AirVenture. I arrived on Monday morning coming in on rwy 27 and was instructed to land on the green dot and exit to the left. The volunteers all provided very clear taxi instructions to the end of 27 then all the way back up to the approach end of 27 for parking near the main terminal building. I was then marshalled into a parking spot and after shutdown was greated by a fellow with a big smile, a handshake and a resounding "Welcome to Oshkosh". No complaints here.

Kyle Boatright
09-07-2011, 06:42 PM
I was one of very few people who landed Tuesday after the show. I got taxied immediately to a great spot in HBC, and someone from a nearby campsite handed me a cold beer before I exited the cockpit. It doesn't get any better.

Anymouse
09-07-2011, 07:01 PM
He just did not seem like an EAA guy, and I 'd be willing to bet $100 that his normal job is to hassle people.

This was a couple years ago, but I witnessed an interesting incident with one of the security guys. I was in the middle of a large crowd of people walking away from the Theater in The Woods. Jeff Dunham had just finished up a great performance and we were all headed towards the buses. All of a sudden, I spot this guy on a scooter going fairly fast (20 MPH??) zig zagging across the crowd. Folks were jumping back all over the place. I saw him go through the gate towards Camp Scholler and stop next to a kid (maybe 14??) on a bike. He told the kid (loudly!) that he had to get off the bike and walk it. Keep in mind that the kid was riding on the other side of the fence from the crowd. No one was anywhere near where a kid on a bike would bother them.

Not sure why the security guy thought he needed to risk injuring several people to chew out a kid that was bothering no one. (And yes, I understand that maybe riding a bike in that area wasn't allowed, but still!)

EDIT: The only other problem I had that year was that I was tied down in Homebuilt Parking pretty close to show center. People kept using the wing of my Tango for shade while watching the airshow, and not a single one of them paid the $20 I demanded for the use of the shade. The NERVE!! Sheesh!!

vaflier
09-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Hal, Adam Smith did in fact call me this morning. I explained my concerns about parking, and offered what I felt might be a way to solve the issue. We also discussed the young lady and the poor treatment she gave to many people. I have also been contacted today by several other people who received the same or worse treatment as we did. Adam seemed to be very concerned with the issues which have been raised and honestly wants to fix the problems. I very much apreciate his time and his interest . He informed me there is to be a meeting in a few weeks to address these very issues and has offered to update me as to the outome of this meeting. My intention in starting this thread was not to publicly " blow off steam ", it was to hopefully instigate positive change to correct some very real problems. I hope my conversation with Adam will prove to be the start of that change. Time will tell. Airventure is a fantastic event and it would be a shame to see it tarnished by a continuation of these problems. To all the volunteers and staff, thank you very much for your efforts in making it possible for the rest of us to enjoy the worlds greatest event.

Randy Powell

Hal Bryan
09-07-2011, 07:46 PM
Thanks for your follow up, Randy, and for having the time and patience to make sure your feedback is heard!

Bill Greenwood
09-08-2011, 11:31 AM
Hal, I didn't mean that the problem was that the man in the truck didn't give us a ride. It wasn't that far to walk to the hotel. It was just that in all my 25 years of attending EAA, this was about the only time I ever encountered someone who was not friendly. Not the ride, but just his being there; he seemed to resent that people were having a good time, and was looking for a problem.
I never found out who or even if someone really did call him on his radio and send him over to hassle people. He certainly was not one of the orange shirt parking people.

Hal Bryan
09-08-2011, 11:56 AM
Sorry, Bill - I got that. I just homed in (perhaps excessively) on the ride part of it because that's an area where we all try to lend a hand.

Elliott
09-08-2011, 12:31 PM
"Are you with me or against me?" Nineteen years coming to OSH, last 17 consecutively, and I have always been impressed with the treatment until three years ago. I now arrive with a large group on the Saturday prior to OSH and the group had always been well handled (2010 didn't count - we camped on the field without our planes because of the mud). It has been a treat dealing with Jim Casper, volunteer head of parking for many years. He is exremely knowledgeable, experienced, accomodating where he can be, able to give a valid reason for not being able to do certain things. But three years ago the working relationship with the person in charge of North 40 parking began deteriorating and reached a pinnacle this year. Trying to get a reason for the actions from some of the volunteers always brought the same reaction: "We know where she will park your group, but we can't tell you. And don't tell her I said anything or I will be in big trouble." Talking to the folks in registration brought their own disgust with how they as volunteers were handled. Numerous people not with the group had their own problems. Interestingly, all the turmoil on this thread has been caused by one person, but that one person is in charge of the North 40. With us or against us? We will see what next year brings. If it is not addressed, next year will be my last.

Antique Tower
09-08-2011, 12:52 PM
Hal, we had a little problem, not with the parking itself, but with one of the people.
We came in Sat about 5pm, and they had us land on the last dot on 36, all the way at the south end. I guess I could and maybe should have asked for 27, but it was busy enough that I didn't want to talk on the radio. So we had to taxi all the way from down south to the north 40 on the grass. No real problem, just worried about the prop clearance as we bounced along. The were flagmen all the way, lot's of CAP and some orange shirts.
We wanted to park near the motels where we were staying. The CAP boys pointed over by the terminal, but a nice guy, Jim in an orange shirt on a small cycle came up and we got to park where we wanted.
We took a few minutes to relax and then my co pilot tied down the plane. As I was getting the bags out, a guy drove up in a blue pickup that said security. He just sat there staring at us, or at the plane, a C-182 that had pulled into the line next to us. There were about 4 or 5 planes in our row, lot's of other spaces and empty rows.
We had bags, as did the family next to us, and it was hot; so I walked over to the pickup to ask if he might give us a ride over to the fence. I can't remember all he said, but he was not there to help, despite having an empty truck bed. He gave me some stuff about a plane not following flagmen directions, and parking wrong. Mostly he then clamed up and really I could not carry on a conversation with him, and even try to find out what the problem was. There were 3 planes already parked in the row when I pulled up beside them. He just did not seem like an EAA guy, and I 'd be willing to bet $100 that his normal job is to hassle people. I think he is some type of rent a security, had a real short military type haircut, and I think perhaps a cop uniform or similar. Not EAA.
I did ask him what the problem was, and how he knew about it, and he said he was called over the radio.
I really got a hostile feeling from him. Fortunately after a few minutes, Jim came back on his cycle, and I told him about the problem, and he went over and talked to the cop type and we left. The next morning all our planes were there as before, except the 182 was gone. There were a few more planes parked in the row behind us, still plenty of room.

This probably isn't related, but I spoke with a county deputy down at Vintage early in the week, and she asked us to be on the lookout for a certain aircraft that was going to be seized when it landed - related to a court case. Maybe the "security" type thought the 182 was that aircraft. I'm sorry but I don't remember what make/model we were supposed to be looking for. Ron do you remember?

txopenair
09-10-2011, 10:55 AM
There was another horrific parking situation, not so much about the volunteers but instead the situation. The large Handicap Parking area outside the Main Gate after the rain was deplorable. It was bad enough to see rear wheel drive vehicles spinning in the mud, even front wheel drive had issues, but the absolute saddest sight was seeing so many of our aged and truly handicapped members / visitors trying to manuver on foot in and out of this parking area muck. Of course as the vehicle traffic increased the mud, standing water and deep ruts enhanced the problem, made worse by the next day. Sadly I only saw one EAA volunteer on an ATV ferry a handicapped individual to their vehicle and only that one time. Although I am not handicapped, I have a 4WD truck so after watching so many dismal attempts by so many I began to ferry some of these folks to their vehicles. (I had only returned to my truck to drop off items I had purchased). Thankfully I met and was able to thank multiple WWII veterans during this process. EAA should give serious consideration to it's many senior / handicapped attendees and consider properly grading that area of the parking lot for better drainage and even provide a packed gravel base.

scoltharp
09-10-2011, 02:16 PM
Kyle responded: "One parking problem and you're not going back?"

That was an assumption that this was the first time I had a problem getting to row 557 to park and camp.

While we have been camping in that area since 1998 and attending Oshkosh since 1981 this is not the first year we had problems getting an OK to camp on row 557. In 2008 some of our group were blocked from getting there. Even one guy who got to the event on Friday(three days before it started). After we were not allowed to camp there in 2008 several of us wrote letters to some of the leaders at Oshkosh including some phone calls. We received no real satisfaction from our communications but had a feeling that we had gotten some attention to our problem. In 2009 some of us attended with hope that we would once again be allowed to camp in that area and enjoy our camaraderie (some of us stayed at home, though). The parkers in 2009 greeted us and welcomed us - no problems(we felt our communcations had done some good).

Of course 2010 was a problem created by mother nature and it is amazing how well the parkers were able to adjust and get folks parked at all. Thank you!

When we arrived in 2011 the parkers were even more determined that we could not get to row 557 than they were in 2008.
So my decision not to return was not based on "one parking problem" but by two years of parking problems. So the success we had in our comunications after 2008 was apparently "over-ruled in 2011. Why fight it? Just quit attending.

Thanks --- Lynn

Lrrryo
09-11-2011, 06:11 AM
Kyle responded: "One parking problem and you're not going back?"

...............
So my decision not to return was not based on "one parking problem" but by two years of parking problems. So the success we had in our comunications after 2008 was apparently "over-ruled in 2011. Why fight it? Just quit attending.

Thanks --- Lynn

Lynn,

I would encourage you not to give up. It's easy to throw the towel in and give up and I could understand if it were the flyin breakfast event down the road. However OSH is more than just a casual fly in. And, I totally agree with you, it's about the camaraderie and friendships we make and renew. Plus all the education, entertainment, shopping, air shows, etc.

This is an event, a freedom we have, an experience that we should not let someone take from us because they just have a thorn up their ass and are unreasonable. I'm SURE there are ways to make this work for you and it has apparently been successful in the past.

We need to aggressively work to solve the issue you have. We need to fight to either get rid of this one person that is over controlling or move her to some position where she doesn't have to meet the people. We need better leadership for the north 40 parking and let's fight for it.

Jeff Point
09-11-2011, 08:59 AM
http://www.airventure.org/volunteers/

Be a part of the solution.

flyingriki
09-11-2011, 09:56 AM
We need to fight to either get rid of this one person that is over controlling or move her to some position where she doesn't have to meet the people.

Amazing it's so difficult to get rid of someone so obnoxious, damaging and controversial. Kind of the PC attitude that has created such awful employment laws over the years. Protects the wrong people....:mad:

So I only go every few years and ignore the very few stupid people, rules, and charges. Otherwise I wouldn't bother at all. Arlington and Copperstate aren't as big and so full of nonsense.

They say the fish stinks from the head. Maybe things will change now with a new head?

N4018Niner
09-21-2011, 06:28 PM
In keeping with the braggadocio of some of the posters in this group. *I too have been coming to Airventure/Oshkosh since 1984, the year I soloed just after my 16th birthday. *I missed a few years when I was overseas in Rwanda, Africa, flying relief-aide and working with orphans. *I too was married at Airventure in forum pavilion number 5 and hope to establish a fund to get it decent sponsorship for perpetuity. *I have flown 330+ Young Eagles (one at a time, with each one getting to sit in the left seat of my Cessna 120) *I fly a Beech 18, a Cessna 120 that has had it's story printed in Vintage Magazine, and am building a Pitts S1-SSIt is unfortunate that *people would make the comparison between a Nazi and a hard working EAA person. *Really? *Do the participants, in this forum condone the reference to a regime that was truly oppressive and was responsible for World War II and millions of deaths? *I for one don't! *I think it is an utter disregard to the brave men and women who faced the Nazi regime and fought for true freedom.But to the issue of parking problems.... *Those who post here likely have not had to experience the disappointment of being turned away, or hearing on the ATIS that the North 40 is full. *There are many legitimate reasons someone might arrive "late" -* I am in the medical field. *I trade Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years to get this week in July off. *Sometimes someone's grandma gets sick in the ICU and I have to make sure she is taken care of before I leave,* making me late to the show...The field did not close to GAC single engine planes this year. *Yeah! *(Yes I know heavy aircraft were restricted due to field conditions). *For the most part everyone who wanted to camp in the north 40 could. *That is something we should be GLAD *about. *With more hangars going up on the north side of the field, GAC camping is losing spots each year. (fortunately VAC is letting spam cans in, which is OK with me, it just makes my planes look better). *I believe that one of the reasons we came close to, but did not fill, was that a LARGE majority of pilots come to Oshkosh because they love airplanes and know they will be sleeping either on rocks or in water but will get to meet neighbors who love airplanes. Those who appreciate the priviledge of flying into the show, scrunch their tents up close the the plane to make room for a friendly neighbor/EAAer. *THAT is the EAA spirit I grew up with. *"Think about the other guy" - when a pilot gets stuck at my airport because of weather, I'll push my airplane further back into the corner and leave my car or truck out in the rain to make space. *The name calling and staking of tradition is not true EAA spirit.* However, if you insist on tradition, I think if Paul were to have it his way, there would be a hell of a lot less alcohol on the field. Real EAA tradition is to help each other enjoy aviation.By the way, a link to the brief camper guidelines:* http://www.airventure.org/planning/aircraft_camping.htmlTo solve the problem, be considerate of everyone on the field and everyone who hopes to make it to KOSH. *Becareful of what you say, don't call someone a Nazi and then expect to exchange pleasentries. Always read the NOTAM and the Camping rules. *Volunteer !!!! * I volunteered about 50 hours that week working only on understaffed shifts. We can always use more help.I can't wait for next year. *Will there be less space to park airplanes? *Will the field fill? *Will more spam cans have to camp in vintage?

Bill Greenwood
09-21-2011, 07:49 PM
I am not sure what point or points you are trying to make, but that is a pretty strong or even harshly worded statement. If you feel that strongly, why not sign your name to it as many of us do ours, and not just a number?
Or you the lady that some people referred to as being in charge of parking and so rude to several people?

I personally don't or have not drink while on the field, but I see a lot of people that seem to enjoy a social drink with their friends, and for the most part I haven't seem problems with that.

Antique Tower
09-22-2011, 06:28 AM
I think if Paul were to have it his way, there would be a hell of a lot less alcohol on the field.

Not just Paul.

The booze-fueled parties in Scholler are getting atrocious. I made the mistake of camping near "The Coffin" in Paul's Woods last year. But the worst are the groups of ten or twenty that sit around drinking until midnight or later every night. Don't they realize their neighbor's windows are open? That some of us, God forbid, bring our kids to Oshkosh? That some of us have places to be at 7am?????? I've been coming since 1986 and that is definitely one change I don't agree with.

And I didn't even mention the South Africans.....

Lrrryo
09-22-2011, 06:50 AM
........t *people would make the comparison between a Nazi and a hard working EAA person. .........


Niner,

I'm "SURE" you understood the jest of the comment. Probably not "my" choice of a description, but the point is understandable.

And, we're not addressing the deserving hard working volunteers... many of us have been there. We're addressing one particular person that has proven to go out of her way to just be totally unacceptable. That person has a problem and we want it solved.

Are you that person? If so, take note.

vaflier
09-22-2011, 09:37 PM
Niner, I applaud you accomplishments in aviation and your professional life, although I am not quite sure how they contribute to the point of this thread. I even accept your veiwpoint although I cannot say I see how this nickname is an insult to those who fought for freedom. I would agree that they earned and deserve the utmost respect !. Oshkosh to me is a wonderful place to spend time with friends, both old and new who share my love of flying. To that end we like to camp together and even arrive several days early to ensure that we can do so. We know we will be sleeping on rocks and may even get washed out, it's all part of the package. I would agree that we all should be aware and considerate of our neighbors, and we were. All of the volunteers and staff we met at Oshkosh were fantastic, except one. While I did not give her this nickname, I can see how she came to aquire it. No one should be accosted by a yelling, angry, belligerent person immediately upon engine shut down, before you can even exit the aircraft. If there is a problem that would certainly not be the best way to resolve it. This person was highly irate and and completely out of line. Among other things she raved about safety, and not 20 minutes later was observed driving her scooter a very few feet ( 5 to 10 ) in front of a moving aircraft to force it to stop. Again, probably not the best aproach. This type of behaviour was observed a number of times. The point of this thread was to try to bring to light a problem and seek resolution. Attempts to move through proper chanells were met with silence and as a last resort I started this thread in the hope that it might bring about positive changes. There is hope that I may have succeded in doing so. Only time will tell. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the meetings to address these issues.

Bill Greenwood
09-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I am not sure how big a problem excess drinking and late night noise is at EAA, nor how this can be administered; but perhaps there needs to be some area set aside for non drinking, just like non smoking.
Drunks can be obnoxious.

Antique Tower
09-24-2011, 04:43 PM
Twenty years ago I saw volunteers patrolling Scholler all night. Haven't seen that at all the last couple of years.

N4018Niner
09-24-2011, 11:13 PM
I, Mark K. Jacob aka N4018Niner EAA 506047 stand by my statements. So no I am not the person you are discussing she is my boss and well qualified for the job, with probably over 30 years of experience despite her young appearance. 2011 was my tenth year as a GAC volunteer.

I apologize for the “*” that peppered my last post as they were unintentional.

Let me restate my points briefly


Name calling by adults is petty and reflect poorly on the caller.
AirVenture is for all aviation enthusiasts and the general public.

While I am not a lawyer I believe this case upholds this notion that AirVenture is for the public especially aviation enthusiasts. The Court Case Winnabego County V Matthew Miller 08/17/2011 where Mr. Miller claimed that Airventure grounds were private property and that he was not breaking the law by operating a vehicle under the influence of alcohol in the warbird area. As a warbird owner and pilot (N40189 Beechcraft RC-45J) I feel there are MANY things wrong with this picture. I would be very upset if I caught Mr. Miller driving around my aircraft while under the influence. Mr. Miller can not do what ever he wants on the field. By the way he too claimed to be friends with EAA leadership.

Pilots who follow directions get greeted magnanimously.

The NOTAM requests pilots to follow EAA flag people, most controllers remind pilots soon after landing. The goal of the parking crew is to get as many planes on the ground as possible. Large tents, airplanes parked the wrong way, or with extra space reduce the number of planes on the ground. Pilots like some who post on this web site do not voluntarily make room for strangers. Thus the role for the parking crew. Now we are not professional aircraft marshallers, most are not even pilots. So I under stand the frustration and confusion when trying to follow the guidance of our well-meaning volunteers. I am fully aware of the cloud of orange dancing about like Mexican jumping beans from which no decipherable marshaling can occur. But just taxi toward them soon enough someone will give you legible directions. You will get an ignominious greeting if you ignore the flagmen, or demand to be special. There is always a few who come up to me and start out with “I know Paul, Tom, or Rod, I have been coming here for X number of years and I want to do…X” As IF I have not been coming AirVenture for years and do not know what I am supposed to do. This is not a way to greet a volunteer, most of us have heard it before from other pilots. Just because I write letters to the president dose not mean he knows me from Adam. So unless Red One or Red Three are there to greet you and park you themselves. Please read the NOTAM and follow the flag men and you will receive a warm welcome to Airventure…



I am sure that many of you will disagree but the “General Aviation Campground” is not for special pilots and showplanes. If you are special or have commercial interests or have friends in high places then perhaps the Weeks Hangar or the West ramp is a more appropriate venue. I park my plane / camp in the Vintage area because I do not want aircraft tailed next to either of my aircraft. I do not have to ask for special privileges because that is the way things are done in VAC.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this editorial are solely those of the author and are not those of the EAA, or its representatives, I am only a volunteer. Further more The pilot is command is solely responsible for the safe and efficient operation of his or her aircraft, and should exercise extreme caution and taxi at your own risk on the unimproved surfaces of the airport.

P.S This year seems to have been an abnormally bad year for aircraft accidents at aviation demonstrations weather they are shows or races... Lets remember the families and loved ones left behind and remind our selves both as pilots and spectators that the thing we love carries with it risk. Let's make sure those risks are calculated and minimized.

N1829V Landing after showcase fly-by 2006
603

N40189 She will be at the show next year. Any volunteers to help polish?
604

Jeff Point
09-25-2011, 05:30 AM
Mark, from one orange vest to another, bravo and well said.

Antique Tower
09-25-2011, 06:59 AM
I remember one pilot who refused to follow Vintage marshalling directions, shut down in the middle of one of our intersections and demanded to go to VIP parking, saying he knew all the board members of VAA and the EAA.

We started working the radios, trying to find out if maybe this guy was supposed to be back there in VIP, and he looked at the three of us standing there and said, very caustically, "What's the matter, don't you guys know how to make a decision?"

Funny thing was, he was talking to two airline captains and an ER doctor. Yes, we make many many decisions in our lives. We were trying to cut this guy a break, even though he was being quite rude. He ended up going south to about row 120.

Yes, there are a few (well, really one) groups that are allowed by many years of habit to park with each other in VAA, unofficially of course, in their own area every year. But that group has built up a relationship over many years with the volunteers and managers of the area. They are unfailingly polite, and they always bend over backwards to not be a problem to the volunteers (except their parties but that's another story).

Lrrryo
09-26-2011, 06:57 AM
I, Mark K. Jacob aka N4018Niner EAA 506047 stand by my statements. So no I am not the person you are discussing she is my boss and well qualified for the job, with probably over 30 years of experience despite her young appearance. 2011 was my tenth year as a GAC volunteer.



Mark,

Nice post, and we certainly appreciate your efforts and the vast majority of the volunteers, however, that's NOT what this thread is about.

It's about the condescending, rude, and overbearing actions of one individual and it's been clearly documented and THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

Bill Greenwood
09-26-2011, 08:48 AM
Mark, I can see why you are a bit on edge. You are worn out from all that polishing! It is a beauty!

N4018Niner
09-26-2011, 05:40 PM
About the perceived issue with the person discussed as a part of this thread. Allow me this disclaimer; I am in no way related to her other than she is my boss while I am volunteering at AirVentrue, and over the course of ten years I consider her a friend if not a close friend. While some may find this relationship disqualifies my ability to be dispassionate I promise I will do my best.

First let me state that she is exceedingly well qualified to handle pilots. With extensive training in managing human capital, but on the other hand damn near impossible to hoodwink or deceive… No its impossible to get any thing past her, even I, a minor deity ( a pilot and a doctor… you know fly and bring grandma back to life most of the time.) can’t get stuff past her. She is generally open minded and responsive to constructive criticism and solicits input from the troops as to how to improve our operation. We do not loose volunteers because of her demeanor or personality and while we are short staffed it is no small number of people that work with or report to her thought the course of a convention with out incident. Now my self on the other hand freely admit that I will criticize and harass volunteers if they don’t do the job right! Usually its my wife… but she has not quite volunteering yet. Reports of my boss getting in someone’s face is likely because that someone is not taking direction well, it would be HIGHLY uncharacteristic for her to become “belligerent” with out provocation. Reports of eye rolling volunteers is likely hyperbole or possibly some of the younger volunteers or perhaps they were rolling there eyes at the request. We try to have a consistent message but in every group there is one or two who will be the loose cannon.

Here is how the things roll at GAC. Pilots taxi off the runway out of FAA control and into EAA control. They are first greeted by the traffic crew volunteers, the most under appreciated group of people in the worst work environment. (but if you are thinking about volunteering, do! its great fun!!! And the sandwiches you get for lunch are awesome! Making me hungry thinking about them.) Then the Parking volunteers take the planes off the grass taxiways to the camping area. Those of of you who have been coming for years know the drill.

If a pilot is so egregious that he starts giving the traffic volunteers a hard time the chairs and co-chairs will circulate details to help us handle the special needs pilot (and I do not mean ADA folks) this is very very rare. Very Very Very rarely to we get a heads up from the FAA but it has happened, and once in my memory at least while I was on duty did we get a heads up from the CIA or FBI or someone with black SUVs and dark glasses.

Usually a special needs pilot will begin by not having the NOTAM Specified sign in a place where we can see it. TAKE NOTE AN iPAD IS NOT A GOOD SIGN! ALSO HIGHLIGHTER IS NOT A GOOD PEN NEITHER IS PENCILLE A PEN NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU PRESS!! Or the pilot will have a specific row number with out camping credentials. Or begin telling us that they are special and Rod said or Tom said whatever the pilot thinks is appropriate which then is actually a lie. The volunteer obviously is not indirect contact any one to verify this, so we say “talk to the people in the orange shirts with white flags on the back.” Some time I add "They will help you." knowing full well that the request is so ludicrous that there is no way in gods green earth it will be granted but it is not in my pay grade to challenge you so I pass it on up the line to some one making twice what I make. So by the time you speak to my boss you had to have done some thing really bad.

Part of the problem is that EAA does not send a clear message at all times. Pilots who are pushy can eventually find someone to give them the answer they are looking for weather or not that person has the right to or not. North 40 Registration may say one thing, EAA Board members may say something else, Rod may tell you still another thing, All the other parking/camping areas may do things other ways. The bottom line is there are two goals one to allow as many aircraft as want to fly-in do so, after all that is what this is about, and two keep people has happy as possible.

Maybe there should be a new thread started “How not not get hassled when you fly into AirVenture.” I would do it but most pilots don’t even read the NOTAM all the way through just frequencies and altitudes it would be too much to ask to read something else.


The opinions expressed in this post are solely those of its author and do not reflect those of the EAA or it representatives.

flyingriki
09-26-2011, 06:17 PM
Sounds like politics to me. How else could an obnoxious person get so far ahead. These haven't been isolated comments.......
I've volunteered a lot and never found a need to cause anything like this feedback on her......PERIOD.

Jeff Point
09-26-2011, 07:45 PM
Maybe there should be a new thread started “How not not get hassled when you fly into AirVenture.” I would do it but most pilots don’t even read the NOTAM all the way through just frequencies and altitudes it would be too much to ask to read something else.

I was just thinking along the same lines. How about a thread for all the volunteers to vent with all of our "stupid pilot tricks" we've seen over the years? Might be cathartic.

vaflier
09-26-2011, 09:02 PM
Mark, I have no doubt that the volunteers see some pretty obnoxious, arrogant ,unprepared pilots fly into Oshkosh. I have not been one of them. In fact I am normally pretty easy to get along with and not one to stir up trouble. I do however have my personal limits and sometimes you have to stand up and say " This is wrong and I will not accept it ". The only way problems can be resolved is if they are brought to the attention of the those in a position to bring about change. This was the point of this thread. I do not know the person you speak of , but clearly you consider her a friend and I cannot fault you for defending her. That's what good friends do. She may in fact be a wonderful person, but I have not seen that side of her. What I do know, is that many people are very upset by the treatment they have received from the person I met.. This is not just about me, but many others as well. I have heard from many others who have been treated even worse than I. The problem has apparently been getting worse with this person for 3 or 4 years and I have personally seen this behaviour for the last 2 years. I do not claim to know Rod or Paul and am not even a minor "Deity" , Grandma alas could not be saved. But I am a pilot, and one who beleives in treating others as I would like to be treated. I submit to you that your loyalty to your friend is misplaced ,if she is the person whom I had the misfortune to meet.

N4018Niner
09-27-2011, 06:20 AM
To vaflyer. The reason the problem has been growing is.


Your camp site has been growing over the years
The GAC camping area is shrinking, making #1 a bigger problem.
And apparently you cannot change your behavior.


In years past we were marginally placated by and tolerated Dr. Blue aka “chicken man” who would pay for and register all his friend’s aircraft from Preshow to the end, and give us a list of Numbers of aircraft that would be arriving. He was willing to work with us, so got to do essentially what he wanted. I do not remember being briefed to expect you or your party, just coping with you after you show up, and picking up trash in the taxiways from your site. You have shown no sign of attempting to accommodate us or follow rules so you can expect to be treated with contempt. I am sure if you were standing in line at the store and someone cuts in front of you might first say “pardon me good sir I am in line, for future reference the line starts behind me. I see you are in a hurry so please go ahead” but if that same person does so every time you are in the line… I think you will behave differently just judging from your posts. Sorry to hear about your Grandma… the Doc probably was not a pilot.

I think we have reached an impasse… you wont change our behavior and we will not allow your activity to carry on. Actually I do not know I just show up a few days before the show and start parking airplanes, I do not participate in planning.


To flyingriki


Yes politics are involved they are involved in all most all aspects of life. Come out and say hi when you are volunteering. I do not think you want to hear the other side of the story and that is unfortunate.
Politics is also when a pilot like vaflyer invokes a relationship with a relationship with a board member as a right to camp where ever he wants.


To JP


Yes it would be cathartic but it would also be inflammatory. There is always a pad of paper on the field where we record all the crazy things we see and hear. We know pilots are not stupid they know how to FLY!.... Actually we were thinking of an automated parking system where a ground controller would give each airplane a squak code and a discreet frequency. Then give guidance by ADSB and Radio. The voice transcripts would sound like this.


“ Thank you arriving at AirVenture. Your arrival is important to us. We hope you enjoy your adventure…
Please say your Number.” [Pause for pilot to read back] “I am sorry I did not under stand… Please say your Number…” {Pause} I am sorry I did not under stand please continue to taxi… your arrival is important…”

I think that if the EAA leadership acquiesces to these special requests and allows special privileges that limit access to the field to regular people I will quit volunteering. I do not want to be a part of an organization that espouses cronyism or having to know someone to be someone, even meritocracy is not healthy for the EAA the only requirement is that you should have a interest in things that fly and you will be welcome. That is how the North 40 works you are welcome with open arms if your purpose is to love aviation, and dont mind getting hot and dusty and soaking wet all int he same day.

The “groups” in the North 40 have become a safety issues and groups like WF/B2OSH/ have over stayed there welcome. It was ironic that I over heard one of the WF member apologize to a neighbor ahead of time for the raucous behavior to follow that week. (Incidentally WF is a company that exploits a gender to make money. This year there were no female pilots in the group why call your self “women fly”) I am glad I camp in vintage. There are other groups on the north side that are unruly as well

Kyle Boatright
09-27-2011, 06:59 AM
I was just thinking along the same lines. How about a thread for all the volunteers to vent with all of our "stupid pilot tricks" we've seen over the years? Might be cathartic.

I'd love to read that thread. Maybe I'd learn something, and hopefully I wouldn't see my name mentioned. ;-)

Lrrryo
09-27-2011, 07:50 AM
To vaflyer. The reason the problem has been growing is.

Your camp site has been growing over the years
The GAC camping area is shrinking, making #1 a bigger problem.
And apparently you cannot change your behavior.

In years past we were marginally placated by and tolerated Dr. Blue aka “chicken man” who would pay for and register all his friend’s aircraft from Preshow to the end, and give us a list of Numbers of aircraft that would be arriving. He was willing to work with us, so got to do essentially what he wanted. I do not remember being briefed to expect you or your party, just coping with you after you show up, and picking up trash in the taxiways from your site. You have shown no sign of attempting to accommodate us or follow rules so you can expect to be treated with contempt. I am sure if you were standing in line at the store and someone cuts in front of you might first say “pardon me good sir I am in line, for future reference the line starts behind me. I see you are in a hurry so please go ahead” but if that same person does so every time you are in the line… I think you will behave differently just judging from your posts. Sorry to hear about your Grandma… the Doc probably was not a pilot.

I think we have reached an impasse… you wont change our behavior and we will not allow your activity to carry on. Actually I do not know I just show up a few days before the show and start parking airplanes, I do not participate in planning.


..........................

The “groups” in the North 40 have become a safety issues and groups like WF/B2OSH/ have over stayed there welcome. It was ironic that I over heard one of the WF member apologize to a neighbor ahead of time for the raucous behavior to follow that week. (Incidentally WF is a company that exploits a gender to make money. This year there were no female pilots in the group why call your self “women fly”) I am glad I camp in vintage. There are other groups on the north side that are unruly as well

Niner,

Now you know all about vaflyer's situation. A GOOD AND PRODUCTIVE person would SOLVE IT, and make everybody happy. You are NOT at an impasse, you can make it happen. Get in touch with him and lay out the plans... you can use Dr. Blue's situation as an example. MAKE IT HAPPEN, that's what we're here for!

I take serious exception to your comments about the groups that fly in formation as "over staying their welcome". That is just ridiculous. These groups have the most efficient way of getting planes on the ground and to their parking spots safely. No doubt about it.

And your comments about your boss (friend), while are nice, they are off base. You only mention pilots that are out of hand, out of control and intentionally disobey the volunteer.

How about the guy that does everything right and still gets lambasted by her?

How about the guy that makes a simple mistake and gets lambasted by her?

How about the groups that have plane this forever, and she wants to change things last minute?

How about her telling you about "her" plans and don't tell anyone else?

How about her just plain rudeness and inappropriate behavior?

Where is HER spirit of welcoming pilots to OSH?

She has PROVEN that she is unfit for her job. To defend her is just as bad. She needs to be removed from that job .... Period!

wyoranch
09-27-2011, 07:55 AM
All,
It does appear that you have arrived at an impasse. Some observations
1) The "Boss" - This does need to be addressed, there is a difference between between being firm with your decisions and being condescending to those you are dealing with. I have not experienced this first hand, but I do believe that it has been acknowledged. There is NO excuse for that. None.
2) The groups and their poor behavior - If you are going to act like teenagers at a "kegger" expect to get treated like teenagers at a "kegger". This I have experienced first hand and I will tell you I would be alot less tolerant to it. One person being asked to leave because of their behavior would send a very strong message.
3) B2OSH and Women FLY, groups like that are STAPLES to the EAA orginization. A major part of OSH to me is that I can get together with like minded individuals. What do you propose? Banning them? Parking them all over the airport? That won't help the issue as there will always be a reason and place for them to get together as there should be, it is OSH.

I truly believe that the volunteers are doing the best they can to accomadate us and our wishes. There are times when the grand plan does not work out for some of us, if that is the case just remember that you are at OSH and you are attending the greatest aviation event in the world and get past it. An event that is staffed by people just like you, they have good days and bad days, they are hot and tired but they still show up and volunteer because of what OSH is and their love of aviation. Remember that, please.

Folks,
I love the airplanes, the people - everything that OSH is and yes I like beer, dirty jokes and stories. I do not want a military state (which is what I fear should some of these attitudes continue to not be addressed), I am just asking that you remember where you are, what you are doing and who your actions impact.

Now that I have that off my chest, Flame away I can take it.
:)

Rick

flyingriki
09-27-2011, 10:05 AM
It's really very simple. If she is so overwhelmed by jerks that she has to be obnoxious to arriving pilots then she needs to find another job. There, no politics just simple, common sense. Funny, I don't see any complaints about anyone else - how do you explain that? Maybe all these horrible pilots only go to her section??

Getting the picture here? If people are hot and tired and can't keep their cool - wrong people - duh.

As I said, my parking folks were great, big smiles and waves and the fellow that saw me preparing to leave was most helpful with a brief etc. But when I have volunteered I've seen some really inappropriate people given a little power. And I hate to say it, but some that aren't as accustomed to it can get pretty pumped up over it.....hence this thread!

Bill Greenwood
09-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Mark, as for as pilots not reading the notam and not having the parking sign, it can happen.
I have been coming to Osh for about 25 years. I first flew in via the Fisk arrival, so thought I knew it.
Then for most of the last 20 years I have used the warbird arrival.
2 years ago I flew in via Fiske.
I stopped at several FBOs on the way into Osh to get a copy of the notam. It used to be widely available, not so much anymore. Of course I was told that I could get it on line. Believe it or not , I am one of the few that does not live via computer, am not always "on line" and don't carry a computer with me on trips or in my airplane. I am not very good at working one when I've got it,and my printer at home was not working anyway, and I was busy getting my plane ready to fly.
So I landed at Osh, and forgot the GAP sign.
Should this mean some lady in the parking area should be rude to me?
Someone who I didn't know and who I had not been rude to first?
I see that much of the problem seems to be conflict between her, maybe you, and this large group or groups. I dont' know the answer, but how does it take any more space to park perhaps 20 planes that want to be together than 20 planes all parked singly?
Perhaps if large groups want to pre register and have a special spot, there should be a fee for this.
And maybe there needs to be some "quiet time rule" say after 10:30 pm in the camping areas. If drunks are really out of hand and disturbing many people, then they need to be given one warning, then asked to leave. I don't know, I haven't seen this at the north end.
But there seems little excuse for this one parking lady to be rude to a number of people, who have just flown in.
And who is this lady, what it her name?

Hangar10
09-27-2011, 11:03 AM
To N4018Niner...

1. Who the hell do you think you are talking to? You are painting with an awfully large brush while spewing your comments and opinion.

2. Many people obviously take issue with your boss… yet you seem to find it acceptable to criticize EVERYONE that does anything that YOU don't find appropriate, but refuse to consider that your 30 year veteran boss has had any negative impact whatsoever on the situations mentioned.

3. As for the 30 years seniority, bravo, but at the same time... big stinking deal. It is about enjoying our friends and our hobby while trying to promote aviation… not about who has rank. But, if that is the way you want to look at it, we have active members (and volunteers) that go back much further then Mien Fuhrer and some of them have decided not to go back because of this type of treatment. Very unfortunate for EAA and for us younger members that enjoy their company. Thanks a pant load on that note.

4. You speak as if EVERYONE wants some sort of unreasonably special treatment, but in fact, many just go where they are directed. Perhaps some do have unreasonable expectations when they arrive… deal with it. But what of those that arrive days early in order to park where they want to? A spot where they have been allowed to park with their friends for years? Now they are being split up all over the N40 in order to make it easier on Mien Fuhrer and her crew. Well, there is the spirit of aviation right there! Our new Motto might be… "EAA - we make volunteering easy". Keep this crap up and it will become easier every year. You know, I haven't had the pleasure of flying in to AirVenture yet, but my family and I have been looking forward to it. BUT, I'm wondering if it will really be a pleasure at all based upon the reports we are getting back home (and through threads like this one). Yeah, you know… back home… the grass roots… the chapters… the place where it starts. If our friends continue to opt out, what is the purpose of my family and I attending? To look at gizmos? I can do that in the magazines. To watch airplanes fly? Our field is pretty active. To eat the food? We’ve got some of the best food in the world right here. Perhaps we'll just organize a fly in BBQ at our hangar and enjoy each other's company without having to burn the fuel, spend the money and deal with a bunch of control freaks. Maybe we aren't alone... how many chapters would national be willing to loose before they took an interest in our concerns?

My family and I are relative newcomers to EAA, but we jumped in with both feet several years ago and for the most part we love it. Volunteering is definitely where it's at. I am personally inspired by the "can do" approach of many of our fellow members. As I've got to know our membership and looked over their projects, it gives me pride to be associated with these folks. These are the type of people that don't give up easily. They are persistent, they are intelligent and they are friendly. Definitely the type that built this great country and our organization. Many of them have helped with my project. I've been a member of several other organizations… outside of the military, none offer the camaraderie that EAA does. I just hate to see that being destroyed (or at least chipped away at) as my family and I are growing in to EAA by getting more involved and trying to recruit new members. If we lose the interest of our veteran members it will be a difficult battle to sustain our numbers, our skill and our level of interest.

I suppose I've gone on long enough… I would just like for you to understand that the impact of the unfriendly behavior extends far beyond the N40 flight line. Heck, some of our members insist that they will not return until there is a parking policy in writing that allows for people (especially those that arrive early) to park near their friends and fellow chapter members if at all possible. The fact that EAA struck me as a very friendly outfit was a major factor in my desire to volunteer my time and efforts. But quite honestly, I don't NEED EAA in order to whittle sticks and mix glue. I certainly don't NEED to volunteer my time and energy... but I will as long as it remains friendly towards those that keep it alive and because I love aviation… building, flying and the sharing of ideas… the TRUE spirit of aviation. I would also like to help maintain our sport for the next generation of aviators.

One last little snip... EAA is not about Oshkosh... Oshkosh is about EAA.

Jeff Point
09-27-2011, 04:22 PM
So I landed at Osh, and forgot the GAP sign.
Should this mean some lady in the parking area should be rude to me?

Since the volume in the forum seems to be on the rise, and since you put it out there, I will take that bait. First off, I respect you for admitting to this publicly, and I admire that you have the courage to post with your real name, unlike many of the loud voices on this forum. However, that said, yes, you frankly do deserve to get yelled. What you did was reckless and unsafe. I don't care how many times you have flown in, there are changes to the procedures over time, so you need to have the current version. Did your lack of up-to-date info cause you do zig when you should have zagged, starting a chain reaction behind you that caused others to have to break out of the pattern, or worse? Once you got on the ground, your lack of a sign caused all sorts of delays and frustration as all the volunteers had to stop you and try to figure out where you wanted to go. All because you couldn't be bothered to obtain the NOTAM, which is readily available from EAA. They will mail you a paper copy if you call and ask them to, no computer required.

As you say, it can happen, but that doesn't mean that it is excusable.

vaflier
09-27-2011, 09:02 PM
Mark, Since we have never met, and you do not know what aircraft I flew to Oshkosh, nor where I was Parked, how could you possibly know about my drinking and partying ( I did have one mixed drink last year ). I agree that my campsite did get bigger this year, I bought a new 2 man tent 6ft x 8ft and got rid of my 1 man tent. All of my trash was kept in a sealed plastic bag tied to the tie down rope on the aircraft and then properly disposed of. I have not asked for nor received special treatment, but I do expect to be treated in a civil fashion as most people would. Rather than argue with each other why not work together to solve a problem and make AirVenture better for the attendees and the volunteers as well.

Randy Powell

Bill Greenwood
09-27-2011, 09:05 PM
Jeff, to put if politely, most of what you wrote is nonsense. Me not having the GAP sign had nothing to do with safety of flight. I flew the Ripon/Fisk arrival just as many other airplanes did. I flew the right altitude and speed, stayed in line, did not hit anyone else, and made a normal landing as directed.
Not having the sign to display may at the most, have been a small inconvenience to the parking people. However, if I am taxing in in a 1988 Beech Bonanza, I don't think it is too hard to figure out where it should park.
Is it ultralights, is it antiques, is it classics, is it homebuilts, is it warbirds? Since it is none of those, what is likely left? It's normal parking in the north 40 area, just like most of the other modern era standard airplanes.
And yes, I am sure that EAA would mail me a copy of the notam. However once on my way, and finding out that FBOs along the way don't have the copy of the notam as they used to; by then it was a little too late to get my mail request in.
And if you or the rude lady comes up to me after parking yelling, I'll likely brush you off as just someone who is having a bad day,and I am not going to make let you make your problem mine. If someone politely reminded me to have the sign GAP visible to help the parking folks , I'd try to do it. I had the sign this year, as well as the notam.

Kevin O'Halloran
09-27-2011, 09:19 PM
Mark
I've been biting my tongue and not posting anything, but when you said that B2OSH had over stayed their welcome--you have gone too far !!
I'm the ground organizer for B2OSH--come in on the Thursday before the show---I've been coming to Oshkosh for the last 17 years straight,give seminars , buy and donate equipment and help out anyway I can. Have been working with Jim Casper and Carol for the last 10 years or so. Have always been able to work with them, Back in the flood of 2010 Jim called us and told us we needed to move all the single engine bonanzas that were on the FBO ramp---we replied "when and where to?" He told us, and the next morning we moved every one of the 70 plus planes ( except for the one plane who's pilot is in a wheelchair).
We are NOT a noisy group, we have anywhere from 30 to 50 kids camping with us, not much noise after 10.
ALSO, if you look at the Monday afternoon Google earth map of the north 40---B2OSH has more planes per row than any other area ( we don't get to park wingtip to wingtip like you do in the vintage area) We bring in 110 to 150 airplanes, they are usually parked in less than 20 minutes, were not new at this.Even though a lot of the pilots don't camp--they are still required to pay the 30 some dollars a night for parking in that area We usually have around 300 people--almost all come because of the formation group
As far as trash, We usually bring 3 or 4 high school and college pilots with us. We give them a free ride to Oshkosh, pay for their full week passes, supply most of their meals, and give them a big tent to sleep in. For exchange, they have to help our older pilots with tying down their planes, etc --AND they have to pick up trash !!! When B2OSH is gone--you only see worn places in the grass. Bringing these student pilots is our way of getting them into the" EAA spirit" !!
NOW my beef with Carol, up until 3 years ago I got along great with Carol, if I had a question or problem, we would talk and work it out. I had a great deal of respect for her and thought of her as a friend .
I bought pizzas for the parking crew at the first part of the week and later in the week passed out Ice cream to the parking volunteers ( I also buy pizzas for the emergency repair guys, camping registration people, girls in the office, women in vintage and the security guys --around 150 pizzas during the week. Its that EAA spirit thing !!
Three years ago Carols attitude changed--it was the year she had the motorcycle wreck. She was hard to talk to and it was even harder to get a answer out of her.
Two years ago during the flood, I brought out pizzas to the parking guys who were standing in the rain, told Carol I would bring some more the next day--she told me they didn't need them--shocked the hell out of me, never knew a volunteer who would not eat free pizza ????
THEN this year. EAA told us if we wanted to put up a big tent, we would have to go through them AND it was going to cost us 2K over what we were paying our other tent people--we said OK. Then we were told that they would have to put it up Saturday morning --I could see a problem coming. Talked to Garrett ( head guy of parking) told him I was staying out of the tent deal--saw it as a no win situation. The way it was handled???--when the tent people got there, the parking crew told them we didn't want it--now we had the tent people pissed at us , no tent, and they had several thousand dollars of our money.
Then the real fun began--talked to Garrett again--asked him if he knew where they would be parking our group ( B2OSH does not get a reserved spot) told me Carol would tell me. When I asked Carol if she knew where they were going to park us--all she would say is NO. This was two hours before arrival---one of the older parking guys on a motorcycle came over to our group and told us that she had told the parking crew where they would be parking B2OSH--but she told them not to tell us ?????? He said she would be pissed if they did. Her own crew is afraid of her !!! A hour later I saw some of the guys in a gator with the tie downs--asked them if they knew where the B2OSH group would be parked--he said sure in a friendly EAA spirit voice--between rows XXX and rows XXX--said thanks and went back over to my crew. We talked about moving the B2OSH camping gear ( 5 truck loads)over to the area the tie down people told us about. Then decided that Carol was in such a bad mood , if we took it over there she would put us in a different spot---so we waited to hear from her. Got a Call from the formation, 5 minutes out , drove over to Carol who was sitting in a ATV, asked her if she knew where they were putting the B2OSH group--she said NO. So--we waited---the formation group came in and they started parking them right where the tie down people said they would. I rushed over and started putting down Cones where the big tent would be placed, had a couple of the parking guys come over to me and start yelling at me that it was dangerous to be putting out cones when the planes were coming in---and that I should have thought about it before the planes got there--looked at them and said in a normal tone voice--"would have if I was told where we would be--now I'm putting down these cones"
NOW--there is no reason that Carol can not tell where the B2OSH group will be parked ( plus or minus 2 or 3 rows) 2 hours before they get there--plenty of time for us to go to the mid part of the group and lay out the camping gear, tables for the welcome party, etc next to the road. The only reason not to??? just plain mean spirited. Her real job is a guard at a prison. Her real job may require her bad attitude there---does not work well with people who come to Oshkosh to have fun and share in the EAA experience
Thats why I'm not dealing with the parking crew again Told B2OSH someone else can do it.
AND Brent Blue and the rubber chicken party---Brent and several of my friends gave that party, They paid EAA 2K for the right to throw it, bought all the food and drinks, paid for the camping area, worked like dogs to put it on--what did they do with the money they collected??? they donated all of it to the young eagles--yea--those rubber chicken guys are real jerks.
I spend 8 to 10 K a year donating things at Oshkosh--bought and donated big screen TVs, portacools, tons of food, gave tools to the emergency maintenance guys, brought over 12 young pilots to Oshkosh so they could get involved with the EAA, Tried to buy a portable defibrillator for the people at the Registration hut ( they said EAA does not allow them to give any kind of heath care)
Hell--around 12 years ago I even treated a guy at the north fourth who had a collapsed lung from a knife wound ( he got it at the bar across the street)--kept him breathing until the ambulance and police got there.
NOW Mark--tell me again what the hell you have done to be able to give Crap to all these other people and groups????? Why you are wanting to run us off???? Are you willing to pick up the slack after we leave???Or does it just make you feel big to tear down other people ??? Tell you what--since you have run me off from the north 40, I'll come over with a couple of other bonanzas and we will park right next to you in Vintage camping--will tell the guys over there we are friends and you won't mind if we park tail to tail on both sides of you, then you can get a taste of how we are parked in the formation group. No need for you to tell me how to get there--my plane has been there before--picked up a few awards in the past. And it was nice of you to post pictures of your plane so we can find it.
I feel better now--been holding this in for a few years now
Kevin

flyingriki
09-27-2011, 09:50 PM
EAA - you guys are screwing this up so bad it's totally amazing. These appear to be some mighty solid people you're pissing off. Getting to be just like the government - you think we owe you something! Not true folks, not true.

And complaining about groups coming there growing.......you've GOT TO BE KIDDING!
Space for airplane parking shrinking.....whose dumb idea was that?

I'm getting ready to send my card back. This is ridiculous.

vaflier
09-27-2011, 10:30 PM
EAA - you guys are screwing this up so bad it's totally amazing. These appear to be some mighty solid people you're pissing off. Getting to be just like the government - you think we owe you something! Not true folks, not true.

And complaining about groups coming there growing.......you've GOT TO BE KIDDING!
Space for airplane parking shrinking.....whose dumb idea was that?

I'm getting ready to send my card back. This is ridiculous.

It is my sincere hope that no one will allow a couple of individuals with attitudes sour their enjoyment of such a great event and organization. I do not for a minute beleive that they speak for , or are even representative of the great volunteers at Oshkosh. I do think they have provided a glaring example of the attitude which caused this thread to be started in the first place. The vast majority of the people at Oshkosh, both pilots and volunteers are really great people, who love aviation. I do not know all the solutions to the problems at Oshkosh but I am convinced they can be found if we work together. Perhaps someone in a postion of authority within EAA could step in to this thread and help us steer this thread in a more constructive direction. One suggestion I offered to Adam Smith when we spoke was as follows;

Since we know where the parking rows are located each year we could develop a map of the grounds showing all the parking rows. Since by know I am pretty sure they know how many aircraft will fit in each row, a layout of all GA parking could be created online. From this perhaps we could pay for and reserve ahead of time a spot in the row of our choice. We would be able to reserve spots for our friends and ourselves and EAA would have our nonrefundable fees if we failed to show. If you are more than X number of days late arriving without notifying them of your new date then you lose your spot and the parking fees and they can place someone else there and collect for the same spot again. I realize that this may be easier said than done but at least it is a thought aimed at solving at least some of the problems. I do understand that nothing is ever quite this simple but maybe it is a good place to begin. Safe flying to all.

Randy Powell

N4018Niner
09-28-2011, 04:44 AM
Kevin O'Halloran


First let me say that the B2OSH group has the highest level of organization of all the groups and that is appreciated, and your individual contributions are commendable. But I too have been holding my tounge for a few years. You have a FAST instructor that flies out of Midwest National Aircenter (KGPH) north east of Kansas City, who briefs his students to disregard the EAA flagmen. He is a Southwest captain, not the Pete the FAA guy with the Barron. The specific occurrence was in the spring of 2009. I do not think this is appropriate behavior or fosters collaboration. (I would prefer to use “french” to describe how I feel) Your organization tells its members to not follow EAA flagmen why should we listen to you, or work with you?




The B2OSH group is less than 0.02% of the aircraft on the grounds (150/9000 = 0.016 I think I am being generous) I hope this add a little perspective on the actual size of the group.

N4018Niner
09-28-2011, 05:07 AM
There is a LOT of animosity here. There are a TONS of buried hatchets, that make this topic like peace in the Middle East. The is likely no solution that is perfect. I know one thing if we can't accept the other person's viewpoint then the discussion will not go far.

flyingriki - The Cessna 120/140 were requested to not have any more mass arrivals after their mass arrival in 1988. (It took too long to get them all on the ground, and I don't think radio etiquette was maintained very well) So probably should have turned your card in 20 years ago if you can't handle a few rules.

vaflyer - I apologize I though you were associated with the army tent that takes up at least two spots. The trash could have come for any where.

And maybe I'll suggest pilot sensitivity training for the volunteers.

Hope to see ALL of you at the show next year.

Hal Bryan
09-28-2011, 05:13 AM
Hi everybody -

There's some valuable, if occasionally painful, feedback in this thread that is prompting action on our end that we think will lead to improvements to address the issues that are raised. That's a good thing - it's a large part of why we have a forum in the first place.

However, this thread is crossing the line in terms of language and, more importantly, personal attacks.

That's unacceptable.

There's enough useful commentary and discussion here amongs the noise that I really don't want to just lock the thread so remember: keep it civil.

Thanks -

Hal

Bob Meder
09-28-2011, 05:51 AM
As someone who's never had a problem flying into Oshkosh to either camp or rent a house, I can't comment on the issue(s). But I will say this: I tell my non-flying friends and my flight students that, despite disagreements that we might all have, the aviation community, in general and EAA in particular, is one of the most tight-knit and supportive groups I know.

I'm just a member and volunteer with no real "drag" with the organization, so I'm just asking for myself - if there are problems, can we keep it positive and work together and with the AirVenture staff to solve them? We don't need hurt feelings or to look bad to folks that don't know us.

My .02. Thanks, Hal, for reminding us.

Larry G
09-28-2011, 06:22 AM
Kevin O'Halloran

First let me say that the B2OSH group has the highest level of organization of all the groups and that is appreciated, and your individual contributions are commendable. But I too have been holding my tounge for a few years. You have a FAST instructor that flies out of Midwest National Aircenter (KGPH) north east of Kansas City, who briefs his students to disregard the EAA flagmen. He is a Southwest captain, not the Pete the FAA guy with the Barron. The specific occurrence was in the spring of 2009. I do not think this is appropriate behavior or fosters collaboration. (I would prefer to use “french” to describe how I feel) Your organization tells its members to not follow EAA flagmen why should we listen to you, or work with you?


The B2OSH group is less than 0.02% of the aircraft on the grounds (150/9000 = 0.016 I think I am being generous) I hope this add a little perspective on the actual size of the group.


Mark,

I am the chief organizer of B2OSH. The Southwest captain you refer to is not a "FAST instructor", but he does volunteer his time and gas money to help others practice and train for their AirVenture arrival. He helps put on a clinic each spring - one of 15 such clinics at 13 airports all over the nation. He is to be commended, not rebuked. Because of men such as him, B2OSH participants are FAR BETTER prepared than the typical pilot arriving at AirVenture.

Here is what we actually brief regarding taxi speed after landing at OSH: We tell everyone to heed the flagmen's warnings, but do NOT SLOW DOWN TOO MUCH, as we need to continue clearing the runway. We land on 36 and taxi straight off the end. We are NOT able to simply exit onto the grass. CAP kids have historically waved their slow-down signs regardless of anyone's taxi speeds. The CAP kids are not very well trained for this duty - but kids are the future of aviation, so encouraging them to take part is wonderful. Before she became unapproachable, we would discuss this very issue with Carol after each arrival. As Kevin noted, we had a great relationship. It is my loosely held opinion that her attitude did the about-face when she perceived that someone had gone "over her head" and spoke with Garrett (in Carol's absence) about something, and then told a parking volunteer "Garrett said it was OK".

Back to our need to taxi at a decent speed until well off the runway: When one of our guys (or gals - we had 4 this year) decides to go abort their approach and go around, we applaud their judgement and point them out to the group as great examples. HOWEVER, it would be potential for conflict if we had "wholesale" go-arounds due to traffic backing up on the runway. Those going around have to find the back of the formation and fall in trail. If large a large number of aircraft have to go around there would be "opposing" formations. Could we handle it? Sure, but why set ourselves up for head on passes?

Mark, if you could lose the "B2OSH isn't welcome" part of your comments, I would be WAY more than happy to hear your perspective on ground ops at OSH. I run this thing, so I have the authority to invite you to our big party Sunday evening. Bring your wife/date/"domestic partner"/whatever & your kids. I will comp your meals and you will get to see the terrific sense of family and camaraderie we enjoy. We can talk about ways to make things better/easier for both you & us. I can even fetch you in OSH and you may have a minute or 2 at our pre-flight briefing in Rockford to go over ground ops.

Final note: When I took over as leader of B2OSH I had an idea how non-formation Bonanzas might be able to park with us - you know, make B2OSH activities available to more pilots and pump AirVenture attendance. I managed to get Jim Casper on the phone. Jim is a no-nonsense guy. Some would say he's "my way or the highway". Jim took the time to explain why each of the rules were important and why exceptions were to be avoided. It was all about keeping prop blades from hitting flesh, with a strong dose of 'volunteers with limited opportunity for training'. It made PERFECT sense and I came away with COMPLETE respect for the parking rules. Each year I get at least a dozen queries about how to 'park close to the group'. My stock answer is: "You can't. Park where the EAA ground crew directs, PERIOD! You can walk to where the rest of us are parked." I believe you said you are a parking volunteer. We respect what you do. But, we do insist on being treated like human beings.

Larry

vaflier
10-02-2011, 07:58 PM
I would really like to see if anyone else has an idea that my be a help in solving some of the problems we have all discussed. Keeping in mind that that we as attendees have an obligation to work with the volunteers as well. Mark, I know you see things from a different reference point than I do. Perhaps you might see a way that would help answer some of my concerns as relates to being able to park with our friends that would not place an undue burden on the volunteer staff. Anyone else that has a thought that might help us all please speak up. Maybe somewhere in this group is the answer to the problems we all see. It cannot hurt for us to kick around a few ideas and see where they go.

Anymouse
10-02-2011, 10:50 PM
I would really like to see if anyone else has an idea that my be a help in solving some of the problems we have all discussed. Keeping in mind that that we as attendees have an obligation to work with the volunteers as well. Mark, I know you see things from a different reference point than I do. Perhaps you might see a way that would help answer some of my concerns as relates to being able to park with our friends that would not place an undue burden on the volunteer staff. Anyone else that has a thought that might help us all please speak up. Maybe somewhere in this group is the answer to the problems we all see. It cannot hurt for us to kick around a few ideas and see where they go.


If the problem is that some folks want the same spot year after year, a possible solution would be to do like they do with sports team season ticket holders. Allow the folks to purchase their parking/camping slot in advance. Give them a cut off date each year to purchase that same slot again. If they don't buy it by the deadline, it's up for grabs and the previous spot owner no longer has squatting rights.

Kevin O'Halloran
10-03-2011, 10:10 AM
Reserved spots sound like a good idea--but it just won't work. Makes it too hard for the parking crew.
Jim Casper and I talked about this several years ago when I started as the ground organizer for B2OSH.
Who is responsible for roping off the areas??? What happens if someone else parks in your spot and won't move???? What if you reserve 140 slots and only 85 planes come in because of weather?? are you still responsible for paying for those unused spots????
THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM---people fill up the end spots on the rows next to the runway--making it hard to get planes down those rows. ALSO--if you get there on sat or Sunday when the parking crew is very busy--they just don't have the man power or time to make sure you get to your reserved spot. B2OSH does not have a reserved area --We feel it would not be fair to the other formation groups or other campers--plus after talking to Jim and Carol several years back---we tell any other Bonanzas that want to park with our group--if you want to park with us---"you MUST fly with the group"
Even I do not get to park with them sometime---I get there early the Thursday before the show starts, I park on the south side of the runway next to the road--usually between the 2 shower houses--I'm out of the way of everybody !!! Sometimes I end up with the B2OSH group---sometimes with the C2OSH group--sometimes with just regular campers. It's always good !! I make sure the people on each side of me have plenty of ice and beer. I also buy ice cream and hot dogs for the Cessna groups kids one night--so they don't mind if a bonanza is parked among them .
NOW I see nothing wrong with people coming in Thursday and Friday ( maybe even early sat morning) and parking together before the camping area gets too busy--sat afternoon and Sunday are just too busy for "special parking"--you just need to fall in line and get parked . Also in the areas where the formation groups usually get parked--we need to keep the end row next to the runways open---if the groups have to squeeze between planes on the way to parking it causes a real bottle neck and has the potential of dinging airplanes ( its happened in the past)
It all comes down to good communications between the parking crew and pilots--it also comes down to realistic expectations from the pilots--don't expect to get that "special" parking place if you come in on Sunday afternoon and the crew is trying to park 20 other airplanes. Then again--if not much is going on--the crew should be flexible and bend the rules somewhat.
Kevin

Antique Tower
10-03-2011, 12:36 PM
Vintage uses type clubs.

You have to be on the list, and you have to display a placard. When a point manager sees the placard, he/she calls ops on the radio and confirms the tail number is on the list.

The empty slots on the rows are held until midweek sometime, then they're released to anybody.


Sometimes I end up with the B2OSH group---sometimes with the C2OSH group--sometimes with just regular campers. It's always good !!

My philosophy exactly. It's an airshow, not a camping convention. I stay where I stay. I make new friends - sometimes good friends - every year.

Anymouse
10-03-2011, 01:20 PM
Reserved spots sound like a good idea--but it just won't work. Makes it too hard for the parking crew.

It doesn't matter what you do, there will always be issues to sort out.

Who is responsible for roping off the areas???

Why rope off the areas. Put a cone with a sign on it showing the N-number of the reserved spot.

What happens if someone else parks in your spot and won't move????

I believe that's why we have the parking crew.

What if you reserve 140 slots and only 85 planes come in because of weather??

Then those slots are empty.

are you still responsible for paying for those unused spots????

Yes. Using the stadium analogy, you pay for your season tickets in advance. If you choose to not show up for the game for whatever reason, you've still paid for those seats. Same with the parking. It would be nice if some sort of mechanism were in place to free up the spot for others, and still let the spot owner buy it for next year.

Now you could make a case if the show was canceled for some reason, but that would be a problem for the back office guys, not the ground crew.

THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM---people fill up the end spots on the rows next to the runway--making it hard to get planes down those rows. ALSO--if you get there on sat or Sunday when the parking crew is very busy--they just don't have the man power or time to make sure you get to your reserved spot.

Not sure if that's as big a problem as you're making it. The folks with the reserved slots would need to somehow let the parkers know where they need to go. This could be done by simply displaying the parking slot along with the GAC, HBC type signs that they're supposed to display anyway. I've noticed in the past that when a plane wants to go someplace, most folks are more than happy to get out of the way.

As far as parking with type clubs, an idea would be for these clubs to block off X number of spots with EAA early in the year. They can then advertise via their various communication mediums that these spots are available and they they must be reserved by a certain date. If they're not reserved and paid for, then they don't get them. Said type clubs can go back to EAA and say "Hey, we have this many aircraft that want to park together." The EAA can then reserve a section for them. Again, if someone that reserved and paid for a slot doesn't show up, too bad for them.

All that being said, it's just an idea that I floated. Personally, I think it can be done, but not without some forethought and coordination with the volunteers. My guess is that if such a thing were done, then there would be some problems the first year. They would be sorted out and then things would go smoother in following years.

The really big question is whether or not the folks at EAA would be willing to put forth the effort to make something like this work.

Kevin O'Halloran
10-03-2011, 02:38 PM
Anymouse
So if the B2OSH group took all the slots around one shower house and C2OSH took all the slots around the other--do you think all the rest of the campers ( the majority ) would not get pissed ???? I would
Everyone should be treated equal--thats not to say that there could not be some rules that allowed people to camp together or go to their favorite spot
`B2OSH is against having to prepay for slots---if there is bad weather--a death in the family--mechanical problem, etc--then someone might not be able to make it. A lot of our group would not come if they thought there was a chance they would lose a deposit. PLUS--if its bad weather we don't want someone to kill themselves trying to get there because they had already paid for a slot !!!
The formation groups would be more than happy to meet with the parking crew and talk about problems and why things are done a certain way--but this attitude of my way or the highway has got to stop.
Not all problems will be solved by next year--but if we are willing to work together and to treat each other like equals ( and not as a number or %) things are bound to get better
Kevin
PS Last year I talked to the Co Chair of camping/parking for the north 40 ( forgot his name) he made the statement he would like to get a chance to fly with the formation groups--will show our willingness to work with the parking crew--will get him a ride to Rockford friday evening, let him go to the friday night party, pay for a hotel room that night, let him have a few minutes to talk at our preflight briefing--then get him a seat in one of the bonanzas for the formation flight to Oshkosh--have him call me on my cell 580 515 4658
B2OSH is willing to work with the parking crew--but they have to be willing to work with us !!

Anymouse
10-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Dude, it's just a floated idea. Vaflyer asked for suggestions, and I gave one. Feel free to toss in a suggestion yourself.

However, now that you mention it, the EAA could charge more for the spots that are closest to the shower. Kinda like the 50 yard line.

Personally, I wouldn't want a place close to the showers. Too much traffic. Put me in the back and off to the side.

vaflier
10-03-2011, 09:22 PM
Anymouse, Thanks for tossing in an idea !. I would like to see more people do so. There will be good ones and bad ones and maybe some that sound great and still get shot full of holes. That to me was the whole point of asking for ideas. Lets kick a few around and see what are the good and bad points. We may just find something workable. I agree with Kevin that some people will not be willing to risk losing a deposit, although I personally have no problem with taking that risk. But I don't think it has to be mandatory that a person MUST reserve a spot. I think it would be way to hard to reserve a specific spot such as Row 440, slot 7. But perhaps you might be able to reserve a spot in row 440. If all your friends did the same then the odds of getting near your friends is very very good. Especially if you arrived a bit early as we usually do. Such as Thursday or Friday. Yes I know that is fairly early but it gets me out of all kinds of chores at home !. Keep the ideas coming. Someone, somewhere has the perfect idea!.

Anymouse
10-03-2011, 09:28 PM
But I don't think it has to be mandatory that a person MUST reserve a spot.

Nope, not at all. And if it sounded like I was suggesting that (the MUST part), then I apologize. I just tossed reservation idea out as an option for those that just had to be in a certain area.

And Kevin, if I sounded harsh in my response, that was unintentional too.

Let the discussions roll!

Bill Greenwood
10-04-2011, 11:27 AM
It seems to me that EAA has promoted and featured large groups flying in together. Why is it then become a problem, at least with one or two volunteer parking people?
As for slowing down on the runway, if you have 50 or more Boananzas, or any other planes, obviously they need to keep rolling and clear at the end for those behind them. I think this would and should be arranged with EAA, FAA, and the parking people. I can't see why that would be such a problem.
I have considered flying in with the Bonanza group myself, may try to in the future. I have formation ratings, but need to get to one of the practice or organization sessions.
One of the best things I have seen at EAA was the mass DC-3/C-47 formation fly in.
I don't understand about CAP kids with "slow down" signs. havent seen them. Surely the pilot landing is the authority on flying his plane, not some 16 year old who is probably not a pilot and almost certainly not an expert in landing Bonanzas or other types.
Once the pilot is off the runway and on the grass it would seem normal and prudent to taxi slowly, signs probably not needed. I don't know where this gets to be a problem.
If Carol is really a guard at a prison, I can see how that type of environment would lead her to have a deragatory attitude toward people,and assume they are always in the wrong. She needs to see arriving pilots as fellow members and customers, not felons to be bossed around. If you can't or won't do this, I don't think she should be in that position.

Lrrryo
10-05-2011, 10:18 AM
Lots of good suggestions folks, however, the way it's worked in the past seem to work pretty well, with minor issues.

Arranging for arrival with friends early (like Thurs, Fri or perhaps Sat) should work and be doable. I see no reason that folks camping together get a certain spot for their group, if arriving early. If one of their party comes late, they take their chances. If they can be accommodated, fine, if not, they have to live with it.

Also, agreed that we should all be treated equally, however, there's nothing wrong with the first come, first served philosophy.

As for the group fly ins, they are the best and most efficient way to get a lot of folks on the ground safely and quickly, but doesn't happen without planning and practice.

------------

Now, the MAIN jest of this whole thread is still with Carol. She has proven, without a doubt, to be incompetent for her job. If someone, a union, a relative, a friend is protecting her position that's just wrong. She should be in a position for which she is qualified for and able to treat people fairly. She needs to either significantly improve, or find another job. No other option.

vaflier
10-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Lrrryo, Well said !. I do not know what really set this lady off, but I agree the attitude has to go.

Kevin O'Halloran
10-10-2011, 06:45 PM
Click the site below to see a picture of the group that has over stayed their welcome.
Its plain to see why you don't want these people to come to Oshkosh. ( senior citizens ,kids, dark skinned people, people with handicaps, etc.)
I would like to see a picture of the type of people you want to let park in the north 40 !!!
Kevin

http://www.b2osh.org/images/Main_web_images/2011B2OSH%20group.jpg

vaflier
10-12-2011, 08:37 PM
Kevin, Looks like a great bunch of people to me !!!!. Just how many are in that photo anyhow ?.

Randy Powell

Kevin O'Halloran
10-13-2011, 07:59 AM
Randy
Don't know how many people are in the picture --I wasn't in the picture because I was helping Charlie and Jud Nogle with the Warbird picnic
Our Group brings between 250 to 350 people every year. Thousands of hours go into Planning , training and preparing for the fly in .
Several of the other formation groups come to us for advice--we help them out any way we can.
A few years back one of the C2OSH group came and watched B2OSH land, park, set up, etc---His comment --"My God !! you guys are a machine !! " Planning does pay off
Kevin

vaflier
01-18-2012, 07:51 PM
The original point of this thread was to bring to light the problems encountered by many in parking in the North Forty at Oshkosh and to resolve the issues encountered. In pursuit of this I had been in contact with Adam Smith on severeal occasions. Adam was very willing to listen and seemed sincere in wanting to help. I had confidence that he would help all of us by bringing about a positive change. I have today been informed that Adam is no longer with the EAA. I think they have lost a very valuable asset. I was informed that another gentleman by the name of John Carrier was recently appointed to deal with these issues in the parking areas. I will attempt to contact John and see what his thoughts may be concening the issues discussed. I will keep the group posted as to what transpires. Again I would like to say thank you to Adam and wish him all the best.

Randy

John Carrier
01-19-2012, 10:29 AM
As "vaflier" noted, I am the new AirVenture N40 Liaison. It is my responsibility to understand the issues affecting operations and participant experience, ascertain the significant ones, work with key stakeholders to address, and communicate what we’ve resolved. I realize that with the recent EAA organizational reshape, and given the departure of Adam Smith, there is likely confusion and anxiety as it pertains to addressing issues in the N40 area. I appreciate your patience and cooperation while the “dust is allowed to settle” and staff figures out who does what, when, and how. In the meantime, I am reviewing the forum threads and am taking notes.

I sincerely appreciate your passion regarding the N40 issues and your desire to improve things.

Bill Greenwood
01-19-2012, 10:40 AM
John, I wrote earlier about the problems we had a N 40 parking, mostly that of letting turbine and corp types use the taxiway to bypass the line and cut in at the runway for takeoff. No need to go into that again.
The one Pro about the experience was the man who was unfailingly nice and polite. I think his first name might have been Jim, possibly John, perhaps 50 give or take 10 years, medium size, in a red or orange shirt and on a small Honda or moped.
That is the kind of person we need more of. And while you're at it, we could use some more cute ladies.

vaflier
01-19-2012, 10:32 PM
John, thank you for dropping in to the thread, and welcome. I am sure that due to all the recent changes you and your coworkers are dealing with many new challenges. I understand there must be a steep learning curve in your new duties. If you are reading the posts in this thread then you will likely see that there are in fact a few common issues affecting many members. In the interest of fostering patience and cooperation, may I ask that you give us a post on occasion to update us all as to what is being done to address these issues?. This would go a long way in making all the posters feel as though their voices are being heard. Again thank you for your time and your attention to these matters. Congratulations on your new position I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Randy Powell

John Carrier
01-20-2012, 01:27 PM
Randy (et al) - I have no problem whatsoever providing periodic updates. Please understand that although I appreciate everyone's feedback, I cannot promise all feedback (i.e., recommendations, suggestions, etc.) will be incorporated into the resolution.

Bill - From my perspective, everyone who attends/participates at AirVenture is a beautiful (cute?) person....

Bill Greenwood
01-21-2012, 10:19 AM
John, I thought it might be too much to ask for some more beautiful ladies, hence I just said cute. And as for everyone being beautiful, maybe so on the inside. But God, or whoever, made men and women, and viva la differance, I like the original design.
We got plenty of old grizzy guys at Osh, I think it's always nice to have some attractive ladies. I did my part and brought one this year. And I'll bet there'll be a lot less guys that will have parking complaints if we do.
I remember one year we were on our way to Sun N Fun, and stopped at an airport in Alabama and all the girls at the FBO were great looking and so friendly. I sure didn't have any parking problems, the only problem was I thought I never was going to get Ray back to the plane so we could continue on. Best of all they didn't call me, "sir".
And of course we need more young people of all types in EAA, etc.

P S, John, be very careful when buying any airplanes if they all look beautiful to you. Otherwise you man give the salesman your check for a nice shiny F-86, and then when you go out to the hangar in the morning, instead of the Sabre, there's an A-10 sitting there.

John Carrier
02-06-2012, 01:37 PM
I have met with most of the appropriate EAA staff members to discuss their perspectives on the N40 issues. Now I'm reaching out to select volunteers (e.g., Chairmen) to discuss this topic. I hope to have these discussions complete in the next several weeks. After this, I plan to summarize the list of key issues (which will be shared) and begin working them with respective stakeholders.

John

vaflier
02-06-2012, 08:25 PM
I have met with most of the appropriate EAA staff members to discuss their perspectives on the N40 issues. Now I'm reaching out to select volunteers (e.g., Chairmen) to discuss this topic. I hope to have these discussions complete in the next several weeks. After this, I plan to summarize the list of key issues (which will be shared) and begin working them with respective stakeholders. JohnJohn, Thank you for the update on your progress in these matters. Please keep us all posted and best of luck with a very tough job. Randy Powell

Quentin Laws
02-22-2012, 04:17 AM
Mark,


CAP kids have historically waved their slow-down signs regardless of anyone's taxi speeds. The CAP kids are not very well trained for this duty - but kids are the future of aviation, so encouraging them to take part is wonderful.


Good evening,

I am the Chief TAC officer of National Blue Beret or those "cap kids" as you call them.

You are flat out wrong on the training our CADETS receive. Before any cadet is allowed onto the flight line, he or she must pass an examination by members who are "flight line supervisor" qualified. Meaning those Senior officers have been trained up to and including what the U.S.A.F and FAA deems acceptable.

My cadets are told by not only the EAA but the FAA and the U.S.A.F (the AF pays our insurance and or legal cost while conducting operations at oshkosh) that if those cadets feel an aircraft is traveling fast for the current ground conditions, than they are well within rights to force that aircraft to slow down.

Just this past year (2011) one of my cadets was almost run over by a 182 not heading marshaling signals and not slowing down. Not only did I make sure that that pilot lost his license (which he did), I personally seen that the sheriff was called and that charges were filed on the man. The reason for this was that upon striking the cone and almost hitting the cadet he killed his engine on the taxi-way and proceeded to scream at the 16 year old cadet that he did not have to follow the marshaller (it was optional in his mind). He was, in no short terms told by the NTSB agent that was with me, and the FAA pink shirts who witnessed the whole thing occur that he indeed did HAVE to follow all ground marshallers and orders.

So to sum up my rambling, the Cadets you see in BDU's are trained to the EAA/FAA/USAF standards and the FAA and NTSB say that you MUST follow ground marshaller’s signals. Please do not be one of the ones that endanger a 16 year old or 17 year old because someone told you “don’t slow down to much” or "those cap kids are not trained well". Please think, if that was your son or daughter, what would you want that pilot to do?

On a little brighter note, please be kind and even give a wave or thank you to the cadets. They give up 3 weeks of their summer for hard training and a very hard job to make sure your taxi-ways are safe and your ELT signal is only going off because you bounced down the runway and did not crash and require aid.

Captain Quentin Laws, NBB Chief TAC officer.

P.S. If you ever have a problem or need assistance from NBB/CAP, feel free to stop by our compound, just west of warbirds.

Chris In Marshfield
02-22-2012, 09:06 AM
so to sum up my rambling, the cadets you see in bdu's are trained to the eaa/faa/usaf standards and the faa and ntsb say that you must follow ground marshaller’s signals. Please do not be one of the ones that endanger a 16 year old or 17 year old because someone told you “don’t slow down to much” or "those cap kids are not trained well". Please think, if that was your son or daughter, what would you want that pilot to do?

** like! ** :)

Kevin O'Halloran
02-22-2012, 01:54 PM
Captain Laws
Lets make this into a positive
I can meet with you and the CAP kids thursday or friday evening before B2OSH arrives on saturday , will bring 10 large pizzas and plenty of pop. You can talk to B2OSH about your concerns--and we will talk to the group about keeping the line moving so the planes don't get bunched up on the runway----I'm sure we can come to a understanding that will be good for both sides--I can then call in the information to the leadership in Rockford, where they can then relay the info to the group in the preflight briefing .
We appriciate what You and the CAP do at Oshkosh, glad your there .
Look forward to hearing from you
Kevin O'Halloran
Ground organizer for B2OSH

Larry G
02-22-2012, 02:02 PM
Captain Laws,

Please excuse my choice of words and accept my apologies for writing "not very well trained" regarding CAP cadets. I, in no way, intended to disparage the terrific young people who volunteer their time to serve with CAP. I hope it's OK if I don't apologize for lack of "political correctness" in referring to them as "kids". I'm 57 and proud to still be a "kid" in many ways.

Here is what I have seen in the 12 years I have flown in with Bonanzas to Oshkosh, including being in charge of the last 5: The ground marshallers, including but not limited to the CAP cadets, wave 'slow down' regardless of taxi speed. We, B2OSH, have talked to EAA and FAA about our need to continue clearing the runway behind us. They are aware of our need in this area and understand that we will acknowledge the orders, but remain aware of potential for backing up onto Runway 36. It's happened. We have an agreement with the FAA that requires us to both clear the runway expeditiously and follow orders from ground handlers. We do a pretty good job of meeting both requirements.

This morning I spoke with the man who arrives ahead of us to serve as our "North 40 ground liaison". Kevin O'Halloran. Kevin suggested a briefing the Friday evening before the B2OSH arrival. You, Kevin, advance personnel from the Cessna, Mooney, Cherokee groups, and your cadets. Kevin offered to have pizza delivered, at his expense, to the CAP cadet contingent. At that briefing, we can talk about how the arrivals of large groups differ from the normal flow of arrivals and you can stress the safety of your crews. I believe that this small bit of communication will "fix" the minor issue we are talking about. The large arrival groups are a special case for 2 reasons: One, the density of our arrivals; and two, we all prepare and brief and know what to expect when we arrive.

For the record, B2OSH aircraft don't "speed" while taxiing. We are merely aware that congestion behind us isn't good. We land over 100 aircraft in about 12 minutes. Once off the runway, each of us has to keep going to clear space behind.

Several years ago (before I became leader) one of our pilots made a disrespectful gesture at a CAP cadet. When his identity was determined, he was immediately banned from participation in B2OSH for good. Many (most?) of our participants wave and smile at the cadets. B2OSH is all about children. We are proud that the kids in our group enjoy our activities so much. It will NOT happen, but if you see or hear about any misbehavior by ANY of our group directed at any of the fine young people who serve you, please let me know! Get a tail number.

On a somewhat related note, when I took over B2OSH and showed up on the ramp in Rockford as the chief honcho for the first time, my most immediate concern about the whole operation changed from worrying about a formation flight mishap to a ground mishap - especially regarding our kids. Our pilots are adults who have been through fairly extensive training at clinics all over the country. Not so our kids. We have to rely on individual parent/kid discipline & kids don't always remember or heed what they have been told. With running engines & spinning props in multiple, near, locations on the ramp, one cannot rely on the directionality of one's hearing to avoid flesh meeting propeller. Ditto on the other end of the flight in the North 40 after parking. 3 years ago an adult EAA parking volunteer came within 12 inches of backing into the spinning prop of a just-parked airplane. The right seat passenger in that airplane has it on video. When it was shown to me, I knew there had not been an accident, but it still made me sick to stomach. The leadership of Bonanzas to Oshkosh goes to great lengths to stress proper ramp awareness. Our focus on ramp safety ABSOLUTELY extends to the safety of your cadets!!

Thank you for the invitation to your compound. I will definitely stop by and say hello, shake your hand, and offer a salute to your kids. You are also welcome to stop by our place and chat. I bet we're on the same page about most everything. Tell your cadets that if they are in the vicinity of our big tent, they are welcome to stop, introduce themselves, & raid our ice chests for a cold soda or bottle of water.

You can reach me at LarryG@b2osh.org and/or 209.481.9325.

Larry




Good evening,

I am the Chief TAC officer of National Blue Beret or those "cap kids" as you call them.

You are flat out wrong on the training our CADETS receive. Before any cadet is allowed onto the flight line, he or she must pass an examination by members who are "flight line supervisor" qualified. Meaning those Senior officers have been trained up to and including what the U.S.A.F and FAA deems acceptable.

My cadets are told by not only the EAA but the FAA and the U.S.A.F (the AF pays our insurance and or legal cost while conducting operations at oshkosh) that if those cadets feel an aircraft is traveling fast for the current ground conditions, than they are well within rights to force that aircraft to slow down.

Just this past year (2011) one of my cadets was almost run over by a 182 not heading marshaling signals and not slowing down. Not only did I make sure that that pilot lost his license (which he did), I personally seen that the sheriff was called and that charges were filed on the man. The reason for this was that upon striking the cone and almost hitting the cadet he killed his engine on the taxi-way and proceeded to scream at the 16 year old cadet that he did not have to follow the marshaller (it was optional in his mind). He was, in no short terms told by the NTSB agent that was with me, and the FAA pink shirts who witnessed the whole thing occur that he indeed did HAVE to follow all ground marshallers and orders.

So to sum up my rambling, the Cadets you see in BDU's are trained to the EAA/FAA/USAF standards and the FAA and NTSB say that you MUST follow ground marshaller’s signals. Please do not be one of the ones that endanger a 16 year old or 17 year old because someone told you “don’t slow down to much” or "those cap kids are not trained well". Please think, if that was your son or daughter, what would you want that pilot to do?

On a little brighter note, please be kind and even give a wave or thank you to the cadets. They give up 3 weeks of their summer for hard training and a very hard job to make sure your taxi-ways are safe and your ELT signal is only going off because you bounced down the runway and did not crash and require aid.

Captain Quentin Laws, NBB Chief TAC officer.

P.S. If you ever have a problem or need assistance from NBB/CAP, feel free to stop by our compound, just west of warbirds.

Bill Greenwood
02-22-2012, 02:19 PM
Quentin. let's use some common sense. The most important thing is the safety to the CAP kids. So teach them and all other ground people to see the danger in propellers and never to put themselves in the path of a prop. Stay back and to the side where they can't get hit.

If the CAP teenager sees or thinks that a plane is taxiing too fast, he can give a slow down signal , wave his hands palm down or hold his hand up like stop or use a flag or whatever. And how fast is too fast? The FAA teaching info says to taxi like a fast walk.

But when you say he is going to "force the aircraft to slow down" , that sounds like you might be telling the kids to step in front of the plane or do something dumb or dangerous. I hope that whatever dispute you have with any groups over parking, whoever is right or wrong, that you don't send kids out to fight that fight.

The pilot may be taxing too fast, but maybe he is trying to clear the runway for those landing behind him, or maybe the ground is wet and soft, like last year, and he is trying to keep moving to avoid sinking in.
And you may well train the cadets for a week or two, and they may do a good job, but after that week or two, do they really know more about how to taxi than the pilots?
I used to fly a plane at Osh,not a Bonanza,that had air brakes. If I could keep moving about 10 mph, the rudder aided in control, if I had to make repeated stops and starts, it was harder to taxi.

If there is some critical spot, like just coming off the runway onto the grass, why not put an adult there, to handle it and if necessary to take the heat, don't load it all on teenagers.

And Kevin, can't you guys give the cadets something more healthy and tasty than pizza?

Kevin O'Halloran
02-22-2012, 03:05 PM
And Kevin, can't you guys give the cadets something more healthy and tasty than pizza?[/QUOTE]



Bill
I'll show up with Tofu and broccali---tell them Bill Greenwood said to not give them pizza---those young cadets will hunt you down and beat you about the head and neck with their emergency ELT antenna:)
Kevin

Quentin Laws
02-22-2012, 03:13 PM
Thank you everyone for your responses.

Kevin and Larry I look forward to seeing you all, and I am sure the cadets will enjoy the briefing about the mass arrival, but no need to bring any pizza. We have food already purchased for all the days, so come and we will feed you!! The cadets love (if they are not on duty) to watch the mass arrivals and always want more information, and I am 100% sure it will help those cadets and Senior Officers who will be on duty.

Bill, let me assure you that our cadets are told time and time again to think safety for themselves, because lets be honest a prop will win every time Vs. a cadet. Our cadets stand located behind the center line cones and direct from those "covered" positions. They are told that if an aircraft is not following commands and is heading straight at you, they are to abandon the post and "seek cover". Meaning make sure no other aircraft are behind them and get out of the way. CAP has been performing missions for years and years and our safety record tops everything. Not a single accident involving a cadet on the flight line or in warbirds. We are very proud of that statistic. Hundreds of thousands of man hours with ZERO accidents! We try our best to give the EAA everything they want, and to make sure pilots and families are happy and moved quickly and safely once they "welcome to Oshkosh, exit into the grass and follow the marshallers". Thank you for your concern, it means allot to me that people are worried about EVERYONES safety on the ramp. It really helps me sleep at night at Oshkosh (or at least the 2 hours a night I get).

Once again, thank you all for your questions, responses and concerns. Like I said, feel free to stop by our compound and ask for me if you need anything!! I will also post my CAP cell number incase anyone wants to discuss something. 636-322-8012.

Capt. Quentin Laws CAP

P.S. I have worked Airventure for 7 years, and attended more, but I have never landed on 9/27. Anyone care to help me cross something of my bucket list?? :D

FlyingRon
02-22-2012, 04:34 PM
I got to appreciate the CAP kids my second Oshkosh. At 1AM we got a local thunderstorm with 70MPH winds and lots of rain. Within minutes of the end of it, the cadets were out helping people re-erect their tents and for those who were beyond repair putting them up in the CAP hangar and dispensing hot cocoa to the cold and wet.

Year before last, while us in Vintage parking were doing crowd control around the Jack Rousch crash scene, it was the CAP cadets that finally came and relieved us around 10PM so we could finally go to dinner.

My experience is just the opposite in the North 40, they used to want me to get closer to the marshallers than I was comfortable with.

I'm the one by the way with the "THANK YOU" sign on the back of my HILTON sign when I taxi up to the Hilton on the last day of the show.

John Carrier
02-23-2012, 07:32 AM
Fyi. I have added Captain Laws to my "contact list" as I examine the issues on the North 40.

John Carrier
03-08-2012, 08:20 AM
I have personally interviewed 20 stakeholders (i.e., staff, chairmen, and other volunteers) and will wrap-up the interviews tomorrow. Thank you to everyone who has participated. Next week I will be working on the summary of my findings and hope to have my assessment reported shortly thereafter. In the meantime, here's a preview of key themes (in no particular order):
1) Focus on Safety
2) Effective Communications
3) Participant Awareness, Appreciation, and Respect
4) Policies, Procedures - Known, Documented, Compliance, and Enforcement
5) Effective Change Management

vaflier
03-26-2012, 07:36 PM
John, anything new you can tell us about the concerns which have been raised in this forum ?.

Hangar10
03-26-2012, 09:09 PM
Yes, I've been meaning to ask the same question for a couple of weeks now, vaflier's post just reminded me.

As of now, no one from our chapter except for myself and my family is planning to attend Oshkosh because of the parking issues, which is a real bummer. Normally we have around a dozen come up and camp together, but since the "camp together" issue has yet to be resolved they refuse to roll the dice again. My wife and I were just talking yesterday about how we won't be able to wander around and see our friends... it will be different without any of them there.

I hope the issue can be resolved in time for people to make plans for this year.

malexander
03-27-2012, 05:04 AM
Yes, I've been meaning to ask the same question for a couple of weeks now, vaflier's post just reminded me.

As of now, no one from our chapter except for myself and my family is planning to attend Oshkosh because of the parking issues, which is a real bummer. Normally we have around a dozen come up and camp together, but since the "camp together" issue has yet to be resolved they refuse to roll the dice again. My wife and I were just talking yesterday about how we won't be able to wander around and see our friends... it will be different without any of them there.

I hope the issue can be resolved in time for people to make plans for this year.



Mark:
You can wander over to Sleepy Hollow space 69. We'll all (the Alexander family) be there.

Marshall

John Carrier
03-27-2012, 08:07 AM
After the interviews and research, I can tell you I've started working with the Director of Air Operations and the Chair/Vice-Chair of the N40 Convention Management to work through the issues. It is important to note that there will be no easy or quick fix. We have to consider years of behaviors that have evolved given the absence of (or poorly communicated, managed, and enforced) policies/procedures. These behaviors may or may not be appropriate given a focus on safety (both in the air and on the ground), a desire to park/camp as many guests as possible in the N40 area, and to facilitate an enjoyable experience. I ask for your patience as we work through all of the variables and establish a plan that attempts to address both the short-term desires and lay a proper long-term foundation for everyone to follow.

Hangar10
03-27-2012, 09:10 AM
Do we need to fix everything in one foul swoop? I mean, would it be too much trouble to allow those who arrive early to camp where they want to? It appeared to work fine in years past. When I say camp where they want, I mean first come, first served... taxi to the outer end of the row and let the flight line crew line em up. Even if an airplane arrives in the mix with a sign in their window, can they not be directed to that row, or at least that area if the row happens to be filled? This would be a big step in improving things.

I've not volunteered in the north-40, so I'm not exactly keen on how things flow out there... it just seems, from what others have told me, that it has worked that way in the past.

Hey Marshall! We need to wander down there. BTW, you missed two great opportunities to fly in for pancakes. Last month was nice, and last Saturday was really nice. Maybe next month.

Bill Greenwood
03-27-2012, 10:22 AM
John, will the lady who was the subject of some many complaints last year still be working this year? If so, where will she be located?
I haven't personally met her, but don't want to either.
Maybe she could come a week later, start Mon the 30th perhaps and she would then not have to interact with any people which seems to be the sore point.
Or she could wear a special shirt, perhaps one with a picture of a pit bull on it so folks could identify and avoid her.

John Carrier
03-27-2012, 11:49 AM
The "arrive early, park where you want" concept is likely where we will go, but it should come as no surprise that there are a number of factors to account for and work out before we allow it and communicate the procedure to follow.

As for the "lady" noted in this forum, I am not in favor of using a public forum to criticize any individual or discuss their particular situation, so I will not go there. However, it is clear to me that there is an opportunity to improve overall customer service and increase general awareness (and appreciation) of the volunteer responsibilities.

Bill Greenwood
03-27-2012, 03:07 PM
John, all reports are that you are a stand up guy, but this "lady"? has been the subject of many negative reports, not by me personally, but others. If you ignore that she is a big part of the problem, that's not being fair to all. I don't need to know her name or address or phone number, but how about telling us if and where she will be so those who must go there can be on their guard for her. I hope she finds somewhere else to be that week, but if she is at Osh, maybe there is some volunteer duty where she doesn't have to have much contact with people.

John Carrier
03-27-2012, 03:47 PM
Understand that nothing is being ignored and I'm trying to take an objective and comprehensive view of things. With that said, there are effective and constructive ways to address these types of matters and this forum is not one of them. I would appreciate all discussions regarding this "lady" to stop.

On a go-forward basis, if anyone has personally experienced a negative (or positive) situation with a guest, volunteer, or staff member on the N40, that is deemed worthy to share, they are welcome to contact me directly and privately. Thank you for your cooperation.

malexander
03-27-2012, 06:55 PM
Do we need to fix everything in one foul swoop? I mean, would it be too much trouble to allow those who arrive early to camp where they want to? It appeared to work fine in years past. When I say camp where they want, I mean first come, first served... taxi to the outer end of the row and let the flight line crew line em up. Even if an airplane arrives in the mix with a sign in their window, can they not be directed to that row, or at least that area if the row happens to be filled? This would be a big step in improving things.

I've not volunteered in the north-40, so I'm not exactly keen on how things flow out there... it just seems, from what others have told me, that it has worked that way in the past.

Hey Marshall! We need to wander down there. BTW, you missed two great opportunities to fly in for pancakes. Last month was nice, and last Saturday was really nice. Maybe next month.

I'm planning on it, what's the date?

Hangar10
03-27-2012, 09:32 PM
April 21... May 26... June 23.

Darn N-40 parking problems <--- had to keep the thread on topic. ;)

Jeff Point
03-28-2012, 06:27 PM
However, it is clear to me that there is an opportunity to improve overall customer service and increase general awareness (and appreciation) of the volunteer responsibilities.John,While I applaud your efforts to make improvements, this sentence caused my radar to go up a bit. I think it is important for everyone to remember that this is a membership organization, and the gathering at Oshkosh is first and foremost a membership convention. The folks who fly in and camp, and the volunteers who make this thing work, are all members, not customers and certainly not employees. As a long time volunteer and chairman I'm all for giving our members the best possible experience at the show, but when words like "customer service" get thrown around, it causes red flags to go up in the minds of many of us. I made this point in an earlier post but it bears repeating here- the parking operations are planned and executed almost exclusively by the volunteer corps, with very little involvement from the paid EAA staff. "Members helping members" is what it's all about. The system thus created, while not perfect, is damn good and meets the needs of the vast majority of members who fly in to the show. Any attempt by HQ staff to intervene in the situation, however well-intentioned, must be considered very carefully, especially when words like customer service are being thrown around. Remember Murphy's 13th- "Every solution breeds more new problems.". Someone on this forum has that in their signature and it is very appropriate here.

John Carrier
03-29-2012, 07:02 AM
Jeff - thank you for your comments. I'd like to make a few more points if I may.

1) Perhaps it is a question of semantics. I consider a "customer" a person (e.g., registered N40 guest) who receives/consumes a good/service (e.g., parking, camping, admission, etc.), who pays for it, and who can make the choice not to do so. My assessment of the facts I have gathered tell me there is opportunity to improve the service level in the area.

2) Make no mistake - I am well aware of the importance of the volunteers. As such, I am working hand-in-hand with the chairpersons and other key volunteers as we try to improve the venue.

3) EAA staff are also members - we share the same passion for aviation. A number of us are pilots and yes, we have the honor, privilege, and responsibility of being paid staff for a great organization.

4) My involvement, or intervention if you will, is the result of volunteer and participant conversations with HQ regarding a desire to address a number of issues in the N40 area. The system has been working remarkably well; however, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that the system needs review and adjustment.

Zack Baughman
03-29-2012, 07:34 AM
In my nearly 10 years of working at EAA HQs as part of the AirVenture Museum staff, I have noticed a real "us" versus "them" attitude at times - volunteers vs staff, staff vs members, members vs volunteers, staff vs staff, etc. We may have our disagreements on HOW to get things done, but I'd just like to reiterate that we are ALL on the same TEAM here. I'd like to think we are all working towards the same goal of safety, participation, and fun (which we sometimes lose sight of). By working together, we can make the entire "AirVenture" experience better for all the stakeholders involved - visitors, members, volunteers, staff, everyone.

Just my $0.02.

Zack

vaflier
04-20-2012, 05:56 PM
John, Anything new you can tell us ?. Time grows short. July will be here before we know it. Many thanks.Randy Powell

58boner
04-21-2012, 06:28 PM
Having just returned from "Spring Break for Pilots" in Lakeland I can say I had nothing but good experiences with staff, volunteers and fellow campers. Lots of smiles, warm greetings and cooperation despite hot weather long working days and crushing crowds. I've been to Airventure 6 times. Had a ball every time. But I did get a sense of the tension on the property. Perhaps there's in the water in the lake?

John Carrier
04-23-2012, 06:19 AM
Vaflier (et al):

I am well aware of the approach of AV 2012 (as of this writing, we are 91 days and 40 minutes away from the official start). Considerable work, but not ready for publication. Some items in process include:
1) Development of group camping models (2-6 units, 7-16 units, 16+ units).
2) Revisiting of basic ground arrival instructions for N40 participants.
3) Clarification of guidelines and procedures for residing in the N40 area.
3) Improvement of the quality and effectiveness of volunteer training.

As I've noted before, it will take time to flesh out things that have needed attention for years. These items must be worked through with the chairpersons and other key staff. And quite naturally, it must all be approved by the senior leadership team (including Rod Hightower).

This forum, as well as other communication vehicles, will be used to share the results.

John

vaflier
04-23-2012, 09:58 AM
John, thank you for the update.Randy

vaflier
06-03-2012, 07:21 PM
John, Anything you can share with us at this point in time ???.

John Carrier
06-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Here's an update on the following:

1) Development of group camping models (2-6 units, 7-16 units, 16+ units).
At this time, we are only formalizing the group camping model for the mass arrival groups (e.g., Cherokees, Cessnas, Bonanzas, and Mooneys). The rest of the N40, with limited exception, remains "no reservation" - park where you are directed by Flight Operations.

2) Revisiting of basic ground arrival instructions for N40 participants.
As you may be aware, the AV2012 NOTAM has been published. We are looking to perhaps "tweak" the "Arrival Checklist," but otherwise all other points of information (e.g., camping guide) remain the same.

3) Clarification of guidelines and procedures for residing in the N40 area.
See response for #2.

4) Improvement of the quality and effectiveness of volunteer training.
As you might suspect, being a volunteer for the N40 is no simple assignment. There is a training video for new Flight Line operators, mentoring, coaching, supervision, and regular briefings throughout each day. Job #1 is safety, and this is drilled into the volunteers. Only after years of service can a volunteer advance to more sophisticated/demanding positions. With that stated, I have been working closely with the chairmen of the N40 to review and adjust current instruction as appropriate.

New this year is the N40 Cafe. This food venue will be located between the shower houses. Dinner only: July 21; Breakfast only: July 29; Open daily (July 22 through July 28) 6:00 a.m.-9:30 p.m.

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 09:36 AM
...4) Improvement of the quality and effectiveness of volunteer training...Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU EAA leadership!!!! You're really are who you say you are!!

flyingriki
06-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU EAA leadership!!!! You're really are who you say you are!!

It's interesting to see this thread dug up again. No mention of the offensive person, just 'improved training'....whoopeee..
To allow a situation like that to continue year after year goes to the heart of the mentality out there. It could not have been a secret yet it took a lot of yelling at them to consider addressing it. That's not good. It's a blinder mentality or an old boys (girls) club that reminds me of most any old corporation, as this has become. Won't miss it this year or maybe next. Looking forward to Arlington and Copper State where the atmosphere is still the real EAA even if they don't support those either......

John Carrier
06-05-2012, 11:45 AM
A number of issues were reviewed, examined, and addressed. As my previous posts have indicated (see #104 nad #106), there are certain things that will not be shared via this forum.

Bill
06-05-2012, 03:17 PM
No mention of the offensive person, just 'improved training'....whoopeee..


And the advantage of mentioning the offensive person is ...? Other than to generate another bunch of pointless posts, it serves no purpose.

Wait until after 2012 AirVenture is over and then let people report on their experiences, good and bad, with N40 parking.

vaflier
06-05-2012, 06:21 PM
John, I can most certainly understand that there are things which cannott be discussed in this forum and I have full faith that the personnel problem has been dealt with and nothing further needs to be said concerning it. There was a second concern raised in my original post which I am less certain about. In an attempt to seek clarification I will simply ask the following question, If we arrive very early or at slow traffic times will be allowed to park with our friends, or will we be simply told to follow the guy in front. Clearly traffic volume will limit the amount of flexibility the parking folks have to work with us. Again thank you for your efforts.Randy Powell

flyingriki
06-05-2012, 09:03 PM
And the advantage of mentioning the offensive person is ...? Other than to generate another bunch of pointless posts, it serves no purpose.

Wait until after 2012 AirVenture is over and then let people report on their experiences, good and bad, with N40 parking.

You want to wash the subject away so I get it. I know, I know, pass it first to find out what's in it.....where have we heard that before.....
What you call pointless is much less so to many others. I wouldn't want anything to do with N40 after hearing of these hassles and the hush hush "fix". Not much done in secret is good, that's why it's secret!

John Carrier
06-06-2012, 07:29 AM
Randy (et al):

I'm going to share with you a portion of a message that I shared with another group asking for basically the same thing. Here goes....

Three basic rules:
Safety. That is safety on the taxiways, then in the parking areas. Safety of individuals (attendees, volunteers, general public, etc.) and safety of property.
Ensure efficient traffic flow. Quickly get aircraft through the taxiways and parked.
Maximize parking space. Each parking area is planned out to put as many planes as possible within the N40 real estate. Try to give the N40 experience to as many campers/parkers as possible.
A few points:
Flight Line Operations (FLO) consists of a dedicated group of volunteers (roughly 200 volunteers plus Civil Air Patrol). As you might expect, it takes a lot of knowledge, experience, patience, etc. to effectively and efficiently handle aircraft traffic (especially during the weekend before convention). During peak times, this group has its hands full just delivering on the three basic rules, with little to no time to consider anything else (e.g., special parking requests).
There are differing levels of experience in the FLO crew. Only a handful of people have the necessary skills to marshal/park certain aircraft or make “on the fly” (no pun intended) decisions.
There are also differing levels of experience of those who fly in for the event. Some are long-time attendees and for others, it’s a first time experience. FLO has no way of knowing the relative skill or experience of the pilot once on the ground.
It is impossible to predict how many aircraft (or type) will arrive at the N40. So, by default, FLO will pack the planes in tightly as they come in.
Weather or other uncontrollable events can make it difficult (if not impossible) to taxi or park aircraft as normally planned.
The N40 is an active airport first, with aircraft camping and transient parking attached (not the other way around).
Your request:
In the past, FLO tried to accommodate special requests when possible. Unfortunately, doing so often resulted in an expectation that the special request be accommodated in subsequent years, regardless of conditions (e.g., heavy traffic, strained resources, adverse weather).
Allowing one group to park in a certain area sets a precedent that FLO may not be able to support for other requesters.
A question of “qualification” comes into play regarding the request to park where one wants. What justifies preference of one (or group) over another?
In light of the aforementioned, the official answer is, unless you are part of a formal mass arrival group (or fit within a small set of noted exceptions), aircraft is to be parked in the order it arrives in a location designated by FLO during convention.


John

John Carrier
06-06-2012, 08:30 AM
You want to wash the subject away so I get it. I know, I know, pass it first to find out what's in it.....where have we heard that before.....
What you call pointless is much less so to many others. I wouldn't want anything to do with N40 after hearing of these hassles and the hush hush "fix". Not much done in secret is good, that's why it's secret!

I have a general rule - provide performance feedback in private. Work for improvement and move on. If you have direct, observable behavior you wish to share with me this year, you are welcome to do so.

Jeff Point
06-06-2012, 09:23 PM
In the past, FLO tried to accommodate special requests when possible. Unfortunately, doing so often resulted in an expectation that the special request be accommodated in subsequent years, regardless of conditions (e.g., heavy traffic, strained resources, adverse weather).

John,

Bravo and well stated. On behalf of Oshkosh volunteers all over the field, it is good to hear you say this, as it shows a level of understanding that we are not certain exists within the new EAA management staff.

WingsAloft
06-07-2012, 07:43 AM
No mention of the offensive person, just 'improved training'....whoopeee..To allow a situation like that to continue year after year goes to the heart of the mentality out there......There's a part of me that sorta agrees with the spirit of what your're saying. However, this problem did not evolve overnight, nor will it be resolved immediately. This problem is not confined to a single event or person, nor will it be resolved by a single event or person. If we do not show support and appreciation for the effort exerted by the leadership, why shouldn't they slack up on the problem? Let's applaud them for their effort! Don't you think THEY want to be rid of this concern as much as WE do? We could just not go, but they've gotta live with this. Even if they are just a bunch of greedy capitalists, you bet they would try to fix this. But firing one person will only give a few people a sense of revenge. It will come nowhere close to fixing the overall problem.

WingsAloft
06-07-2012, 07:54 AM
Just for clarification, has anyone ever shown up at OSH at a "very un-busy" time, and for no apparent reason, was not allowed to park just a few yards over to where they wanted? (and again, for no apparent reason?)

Bill Greenwood
06-07-2012, 09:36 AM
I have not met her, as for as I know, but in reading all the previous posts about parking problems last year, it is very apparent that this one person was a major part of the problem. If you have a position of some importance who is going to be dealing with large numbers of the public, it is VITAL that the person be top notch, but from what I read she falls far short. Let's say for some good reason, a policy of allowing some group to park together actually needs to be changed. The person that says "no " should have some people skills, not act like some dictator. It has been written that her normal job is a guard at a prison, (no joke) and that is not someone who is likely to have much patience or good demeanor when dealing with the public, quite the opposite.

Now, John has avoided talking about this person, not sure why. But I hope that John or someone in the EAA chain has the good sense to make sure this women is somewhere else and does not have a chance to offend so many members this year. John's way may be to do this behind the scenes instead of on a public page.

And WingsAloft, yes there are times to show up in north 40 parking that are not very busy as well as some are packed, and I would hope that parking people can use some common sense and good manners in less busy times.
Pilots need to be calm and polite also, but the ground folks should remember that the pilot may have just flown all day even through bad weather or a tense arrival procedure and may be a little off our best also.

Zack hit the point exactly, that for the worse, is has become somewhat an us vs. them mentality in parking; that is we the members ,(I have been for 30 years) are somehow the enemy to be controlled by the parking cops. That's not how it should be.
It may well be better this year, let's give it a chance. If you are really worried about it, park at Appleton and bus down.
If this woman is a major problem again, then perhaps those direclty involved need to get a lot of signatures on a petiion to have her removed.

WingsAloft
06-09-2012, 04:13 AM
Bill, well said. I see where I was mistaken. You're right. So now I see this person really is a problem. I am confident something will be done. If not, maybe we can sign petitions or something. We'll just have to see this one through.

WingsAloft
06-09-2012, 05:16 AM
I have the fullest confidence that this issue will be resolved satisfactorly. (I guess you could call it blind faith, or confidence in common sense). This problem hurts them more than it hurts us (notwithstanding how much it hurts us). They will at least do what's in their best interest, which would include insuring people have a great time at OSH2012. I am confident that I will have a great time there! (that's code for: I am confident that I will not encounter a certain someone!)

scoltharp
06-09-2012, 08:12 PM
John,

Thanks for giving us a definite answer in time for us to make alternate travel plans. Our group from Tulsa has been arriving two days early so we could show a sign in the window requesting a particular row to park on. On all but two of the last 14 years we have been allowed to go to "our row" and park. Those two years there was no apparent reason we were not accommodated. Your statement: "In light of the aforementioned, the official answer is, unless you are part of a formal mass arrival group (or fit within a small set of noted exceptions), aircraft is to be parked in the order it arrives in a location designated by FLO during convention." tells us we must have really created a problem we were not aware of.

We will not be a problem this year!!

Unless not being there is a problem.

Thanks --- Lynn Coltharp

vaflier
06-10-2012, 08:49 AM
Randy (et al):I'm going to share with you a portion of a message that I shared with another group asking for basically the same thing. Here goes....
[/LIST]In light of the aforementioned, the official answer is, unless you are part of a formal mass arrival group (or fit within a small set of noted exceptions), aircraft is to be parked in the order it arrives in a location designated by FLO during convention. JohnJohn, Your response indicates that there will be no fleixibility shown by the parking folks regardless of the traffic volume or other conditions, except for other noted exceptions. Is this correct ?????, if so it seems to be very customer unfriendlly . I am all for ensuring the safety of the people and aircraft on the ground and certainly there are times when there is no time for anything except herd the aircraft in one direction as fast as possible. During the slow times I would think that there could be some room to be more flexible. As far as maximizing space is concerned , my Cherokee is going to require the same amount of space regardless of where it is parked, so I truly do not see a problem there. I would also ask for an explanation of ( other noted exceptions ). Could you expound on that statement ?. Randy Powell

Brian Hartwick
06-10-2012, 11:04 AM
How about another sign for the aircraft window? Lets call it "GRP" for group parking. Then lets make an out of the way area the group area, say the area east of the old terminal, it hardly fills up anyway. You now taxi aircraft to the FBO area, during all times of the day so, a few feet further, on the same taxiways, shouldn't matter. It would cost you one volunteer to park the group. Lets put the number of planes in the group on another sign and the first aircraft could hold up number and some sort of name for the group. Each additional group member could have something like "3 out of 10", "Blue group", on their sign. I bet pilots can organize themselves within a set of guidelines. Then, the parking volunteer could simply count out spots to save in a row. Maybe, groups arrive between 10 and 12 each day, you only need a two hour volunteer.
We all get that management has changed, please don't forget, one big reason we attend is the comradery.
Thoughts?

John Carrier
06-11-2012, 07:19 AM
All:

When I stated, "aircraft is to be parked in the order it arrives in a location designated by FLO during convention," that is the rule that we must abide by. Note that I did not state FLO will not show any flexibility in where it directs aircraft or how it parks them. In other words, I am allowing them to determine, based on the mitigating factors I've already shared, what is appropriate. With that said, make no mistake, this group cannot accommodate all of the special requests or guarantee preferential treatment of anyone. We must follow their lead.

The problems arise when some people take it upon themselves to determine and follow their own rules. When an exception is made, there has been a pattern with others expecting the same treatment, regardless of the situation. The "unofficial guide to AirVenture" begins to form and through various mediums, the word gets out that there are ways to circumvent the directions of FLO. In my review of ground operations, I have found attendees who have disregarded FLO instructions, moved or removed baracades, or in some extremes forcefully taxied to a location of their chosing.

So, we are faced with three choices:
1) Make it a "free for all" on the N40 grounds (not an option)
2) Totally restrict all aircraft movement and placement on the N40 grounds (not a desired option, but possible if left unchecked)
3) Have a set of objectives (revisit the 3 I shared) and rules to deliver. Implement as a pragmatically as possible, allowing for discretion and best judgement given conditions at hand.

The 3rd choice is what EAA is attempting to provide.

John

John Carrier
06-11-2012, 07:33 AM
Brian:

I appreciate the idea. I have been working with FLO to consider other group parking, but the reality is that this is a very, very complex problem. Some points:
1) Did you know that EAA does not own all of the AirVenture grounds? Most of the property, certainly adjacent to the taxiways, is owned by the county and EAA leases the property for the purposes of AirVenture?
2) Did you know that the county sets its own rules/restrictions regarding aircraft operation on the airfield? These include aircraft camping and parking around the terminal.
3) Did you know that the FAA also has a set of rules that must be followed given this is an airport first, then a camping/parking area?

There are so many other factors to consider, explore, discuss, etc. So, for this year, we are focused on the formal mass arrival groups. We may introduce some other options next year, but I cannot say what they might be.

John

vaflier
06-11-2012, 11:45 AM
John, This sounds like a fair well balanced aproach to meeting the needs of all concerned. Thank you very much for all the effort which you and your co workers have put into attempting to solve the concerns which were raised. I beleive you have tried to make the best of a very complicated proposition. My hat is off to all of you. It is nice to see that the problems which caused this thread to be originally posted have not been ignored. I hope to meet you at Airventure 2012. Well Done !!!!!!!!Thank you. Randy Powell

Brian Hartwick
06-11-2012, 07:35 PM
I am aware of the "Did you know" items you mentioned, we all work with the FAA, airport boards, etc. I was simply offering a possible solution to an issue, that seems to concern so many members (paying customers) on this board, I left the details to those close to the situation.
By the way, your answer to me reads a little on the demeaning side, was it intended?

Brian

John Carrier
06-12-2012, 06:14 AM
Brian:

No offense intended or implied. Just pointing out that there are many variables to this "equation" and that not all of the variables are controllable by EAA. I appreciate the suggestion.

John