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lost in time
01-09-2013, 05:40 PM
For those of you looking for ethanol-free gas I found this site that you may be interested in:
http://pure-gas.org/
There is a link there to a petition:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-ethanol-free-gas-widely-available/lhq1qgW4
They have a long way to go so pass it on if you like
Thanks

Aaron Novak
01-12-2013, 01:12 PM
For those of you looking for ethanol-free gas I found this site that you may be interested in:
http://pure-gas.org/
There is a link there to a petition:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-ethanol-free-gas-widely-available/lhq1qgW4
They have a long way to go so pass it on if you like
Thanks

Oh Brother.........Honestly there are worse things ( from your fuel systems perspective ) they are putting in automotive fuel than the ethanol......they just dont get any attention.

rosiejerryrosie
01-12-2013, 01:51 PM
Petitioning the White House will get as much response as whistling in the wind. These web based petitions are most frequently just a ruse to get your email address so you can be deluged with spam....

Chris Thomsen
12-19-2014, 10:19 PM
This link works as well for finding mogas: http://www.flyunleaded.com/airports.php

Jeff Boatright
12-22-2014, 09:46 AM
Oh Brother.........Honestly there are worse things ( from your fuel systems perspective ) they are putting in automotive fuel than the ethanol......they just dont get any attention.


Hi Aaron,

I wonder about this, too. Visiting the http://pure-gas.org website shows that a significant portion of the population has access to EtOH-free gasoline. It would be very useful to the membership if EAA revisited its use in small Continentals and Lycomings. Heck, a lot of these engines were designed for 73 (!) octane.

Regardless, what are the parts of the fuel systems that need attention, that are harmed beyond what EtOH does? Because I agree with you; there's lots of potentially harmful things in modern mogas beyond EtOH.

Thanks,

Jeff

FlyingRon
12-22-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking, Jeff. Revisited what use in small Continentals and Lycomings? The EAA already does 4 cyl stc's for non-EtOH gas. Petersen even does some six cyls.

The best info I've seen on the perils of EtOH in airplane engines is the guys who are burning it in the RVs. The injected engines aren't too bad once you're careful with the fuel lines etc...
However, they've had real serious reliability issues with EtOH and carbs.

nrpetersen
12-22-2014, 02:47 PM
It would be very useful to the membership if EAA revisited its use in small Continentals and Lycomings. Heck, a lot of these engines were designed for 73 (!) octane. Does anyone know what the octane of typical E10 Mogas would be if the ethanol iss striped out of it? Certainly it could be used in a lawnmower etc but it would definitely require further consideration or analysis before it could be used in even a 73 octane aircraft engine.

Stripping alcohol from E10 could be done adding maybe 10 percent water to the E10, shaking for a few minutes, let it all settle, then drain out the alcohol/water from the bottom of the mix. (Maybe repeat if needed?). At this point the remaining fuel (lets call it ~E0) will run in an engine as reduced octane, but it is still going to be saturated with dissolved water. This can be on the order of maybe 200 parts per million (about a cubic inch of water per 5 gallons of ~E0). These numbers depend a lot on the original fuel's petroleum mix.

The problem with still having dissolved water in the ~E0 is that if and when the ~E0 gets further chilled, the remaining dissolved water will come out of solution, settling in the gascolator or tank drain. Hopefully it will still be a liquid. BUT this would be especially dangerous because when the striped fuel/water mix is chilled below freezing, that water comes out of solution as ice crystals. Only a tiny amount of water coming out of solution as ice crystals can plug a gascolator screen in a few minutes. How quickly depends on the temperature history of the ~E0.

How to dry the ~E0 fuel? Chilling it colder than it will ever be in service will cause the water to come out of solution as ice crystals. These can be filtered out thru a coffee filter or something similar. Or, adding a deicer such as HEET to the striped ~E0 fuel mix (HEET is a very dry alcohol) will remove residual dissolved water from the ~E0 making it so that it can be drained out very much like the first stripping process above.

What to do with the drained-out alcohol mixes? Dump them down the drain. It really is just bad booze.

At this point the dry ~E0, might be suitable for a low compression engine in warmer climates. I'd want to to try it in my lawnmower first.

Thoughts?

FWIW, I wrote an article in the Dec 1986 Sport Aviation on the effects of water in gasoline. This was in the days before E10, and the article was only intended to address the effects of dissolved water - not the dissolved alcohol of E10.

Mike M
12-22-2014, 04:10 PM
...in the RVs...they've had real serious reliability issues with EtOH and carbs.

I was unaware of that. The carbs, huh? I guess the info would be on some RV chat listing?

nrpetersen
12-22-2014, 07:17 PM
My hangarmate's C-140 had his fuel line swell nearly closed running on partial (~E5) ethanol laced fuel. Turns out the airport had been getting "certified E0 loads" that were actually E10. He thought he was going to have to put it into Lake Superior.

From my limited knowledge of chemistry, the mixture of a hydrocarbon and alcohol makes a powerful solvent that can do all sorts of mischief to a fuel system elastomers as well as metal components. Supposedly a teflon lined hose would be immune to ethanol laced fuels. In reality there are very few dynamic elastomers in an aircraft carburetor. The only ones I can think of are the primer piston, the quick drains, the gascolator, and the needle & seat valve. The others are all static seals which only turn to mush when things are disassembled.

But that doesn't eliminate the problems of composite fuel tanks and internal piece-part metal corrosion due to frequent water separation of ethanol laced fuels. The marine people found that out.

FlyingRon
12-22-2014, 07:48 PM
I was unaware of that. The carbs, huh? I guess the info would be on some RV chat listing?

I read it on the Vans Air Force forums a while back. You can probably search on ethanol there...

Dana
12-22-2014, 08:22 PM
Aside from ethanol's water absorption issue, the big problem is that gasoline and ethanol are very different. Gasoline is OK with some materials, and ethanol is good with others... but few non metallic materials are good with both ethanol and gasoline. Buna N rubber is good with gasoline, not so good with ethanol, while silicone is good with ethanol but bad for gasoline. Teflon is good for nearly anything, but it's expensive and not very strong or flexible by itself. Not just rubber hoses, too, but sealers like gasket shellac and pipe joint compound can be dissolved by ethanol... and the shellac on the fuel gauge cork of many older planes.

The ONLY people benefiting from ethanol contaminated fuels are corn farmers... and, of course, congresscritters in corn growing states.

Mike M
12-23-2014, 06:16 AM
I read it on the Vans Air Force forums a while back. You can probably search on ethanol there...

Thanks, Ron. Took that advice. Did that. Lots of opinion. Couldn't open the one link I found to some European research report. So I duck duck went for ethanol aluminum incompatibility. Found lots of hard data, some too hard for me. Also a simple chart from folks promoting how great ethanol is as a vehicle fuel. http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/downloads/Ethanol%20&%20E85%20Material%20Compatibility.pdf

So. Incompatible with aluminum, like my fuel tank and lines. And brass, like my fuel float. But ok with bronze, so is that float really brass or is it bronze? Oh, not with lead solder, like holds the float together? Never mind. OK with buna-n, like my o-rings. And neoprene, like some gaskets and fuel hose but not all, and oh heck forget it.

Byron J. Covey
12-23-2014, 06:28 AM
The ONLY people benefiting from ethanol contaminated fuels are corn farmers... and, of course, congresscritters in corn growing states.

It goes far beyond the congressmen from the corn belt: it encompasses (infects) almost the entire congress. The concept of "I'll support your boondoggle if you support mine" is alive and well.

"Don't criticize out politicians. They are the were best that money can buy."


BJC

Sam Buchanan
12-23-2014, 08:41 AM
The best info I've seen on the perils of EtOH in airplane engines is the guys who are burning it in the RVs. The injected engines aren't too bad once you're careful with the fuel lines etc...
However, they've had real serious reliability issues with EtOH and carbs.

I must have missed that discussion even though I've been on VAF since it went live. The few instances I recall where RVers have admitted using E-10 have described how the engines seem to be running fine on the contaminated gas when proper storage is observed. The biggest concern with E-10 is the fuel pump diaphragm and tank sump o-rings. Ancedotal info sez the diaphragm in the Tempest pump is the same as the one in automotive pumps, but no manufacturer has stuck out their neck and officially made that statement. The o-rings are easily replaced with seals that are E-10 tolerant.

nrpetersen
12-23-2014, 11:54 AM
Engines can certainly all operate with E10. But maybe the real issue is that E10 cannot be made compatible with float type carburetors because they let the fuel be exposed to air. Fuel injection systems never expose the fuel to air & E10 works in the automotive market because all cars have gone to fuel injection simply to meet emission standards. Cars of course are operated so much more frequently that fuel tank and line corrosion issues and other phase separation issues tend to be minimized.

I think when it comes to small carburated aircraft engines, we won't ever be able to safely consider the use of E10 for any substantial period of time, even if the fuel system seal etc compatibilities are resolved. In addition, the lower heat value of E10 reduces the max power output which in itself becomes an aircraft certification issue.

FlyingRon
12-23-2014, 02:33 PM
This was an article specifically on the guys runinng the 100% ethanol demo. It may have been just linked to on the VAF forum but I'm pretty sure that's where I came across it.

Sam Buchanan
12-23-2014, 03:50 PM
Engines can certainly all operate with E10. But maybe the real issue is that E10 cannot be made compatible with float type carburetors because they let the fuel be exposed to air. Fuel injection systems never expose the fuel to air & E10 works in the automotive market because all cars have gone to fuel injection simply to meet emission standards. Cars of course are operated so much more frequently that fuel tank and line corrosion issues and other phase separation issues tend to be minimized.

I think when it comes to small carburated aircraft engines, we won't ever be able to safely consider the use of E10 for any substantial period of time, even if the fuel system seal etc compatibilities are resolved. In addition, the lower heat value of E10 reduces the max power output which in itself becomes an aircraft certification issue.

E-10 worked perfectly in my Chevy V6-powered kit-car with a Holley 4-barrel carb (two floats). It also works great in my VW Beetle engine that has two Weber carbs. It also ran fine in my 1/2 VW aircraft engine that had a Zenith carb. And.....there are RVers who have used E-10 in carbed engines with no service problems (O-320). But maybe there are instances where E-10 causes issues with carbed engines.

Make no mistake, I don't like the stuff and am fortunate non-contaminated gas is available in my area.

1600vw
12-23-2014, 10:15 PM
If you do not believe ethanol has no effect on anything, try this little test. Take some fuel any fuel that has ethanol in it. Get yourself some rubber fuel line from any auto store. Take this fuel line and stick it in this ethanol fuel. Leave it set for about 3-4 weeks. Come back and take out the rubber line. No guessing or arguing about what this fuel does, you will see what it does for yourself.

Post back here with the results, see you in a month.

Tony

Sam Buchanan
12-24-2014, 08:12 AM
If you do not believe ethanol has no effect on anything, try this little test. Take some fuel any fuel that has ethanol in it. Get yourself some rubber fuel line from any auto store. Take this fuel line and stick it in this ethanol fuel. Leave it set for about 3-4 weeks. Come back and take out the rubber line. No guessing or arguing about what this fuel does, you will see what it does for yourself.

Post back here with the results, see you in a month.

Tony

Tony, I don't think anyone in the thread has stated ethanol has no effect on anything. There are definitely materials that don't survive very long in ethanol. The small engine guys (lawn mowers, outboard boat engines, etc) have been having fits replacing small fuel lines ever since ethanol appeared in gasoline.

But ethanol-tolerant materials are available and in common usage, we just have to identify vulnerable components in our fuel system and replace them with parts that can stand up to ethanol for the long term. Even though the two Holley carbed vehicles I own (open fuel systems, no emission controls) haven't had any carb, fuel pump, or line problems in the ten years they have been on contaminated gas, the fuel cap gasket on the car quickly swelled up when exposed to the stuff and had to be replaced with viton. But the neoprene (rubber) fuel lines are fine after being in service for ten years.

I would love to see E-10 go away but that is unlikely given our political environment. So we have to adapt and fortunately it is possible in most cases if we continue careful maintenance practices.

1600vw
12-24-2014, 08:48 AM
Tony, I don't think anyone in the thread has stated ethanol has no effect on anything. There are definitely materials that don't survive very long in ethanol. The small engine guys (lawn mowers, outboard boat engines, etc) have been having fits replacing small fuel lines ever since ethanol appeared in gasoline.

But ethanol-tolerant materials are available and in common usage, we just have to identify vulnerable components in our fuel system and replace them with parts that can stand up to ethanol for the long term. Even though the two Holley carbed vehicles I own (open fuel systems, no emission controls) haven't had any carb, fuel pump, or line problems in the ten years they have been on contaminated gas, the fuel cap gasket on the car quickly swelled up when exposed to the stuff and had to be replaced with viton. But the neoprene (rubber) fuel lines are fine after being in service for ten years.

I would love to see E-10 go away but that is unlikely given our political environment. So we have to adapt and fortunately it is possible in most cases if we continue careful maintenance practices.

Sam,there in lies the problem. You see we have those on forums such as this that use those small engine you refer to in other things besides a lawn mower. Then the read posts such as this then believe they can use this fuel without any issues. My self I have never seen anyone using a Holley in anything they fly as an EAB. I see more of the " little " engines you speak of.

But I do agree all this crap could go away and not bother me. Never going to happen.

Mike M
12-25-2014, 12:24 AM
Did anybody look at the simple single page gasohol compatability list published by folks that make a living in this area? http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/downloads/Ethanol%20&%20E85%20Material%20Compatibility.pdf

nrpetersen
12-25-2014, 09:50 AM
That list is a gross simplification. It assumes only ethanol and presumably a hydrocarbon, but not the simultaneous presence of water. Compatibility with water has to be included in any system involving longer term storage or even modestly contaminated fuel.

I don't even see epoxy resins on the list.

FlyingRon
12-26-2014, 07:46 AM
Yep, those of us who have boats and even some yard equipment know the perils of ethanol+moisture in the fuel tanks and carburators. I've changed more carbs on my wife's garden equipment until I started searching out E-free gas for the small cans used to operate these things.

Derswede
03-03-2016, 09:48 PM
I used to work for the manufacturer of fuel pumps. We had a plant in Brasil; when they moved to gasohol, we basically had to rebuild the entire unit's hydraulics. Cast AL housing would start being eaten away, the metering Pistons started failing, etc. I have started doing the "pure gas" thing, esp.on my Triumphs, have replaced carb parts due to leaks, etc caused by failing seals, hoses, etc. would hate to have a similar problem at altitude or takeoff. The bird that I use for my dual only gets non-alcohol fuel. Quite a few places carry it in our area. Bit more expensive, but my posterior is on the line.

derswde

crusty old aviator
03-09-2016, 10:16 AM
Okay, here's the straight dope on ethanol fuels: it's not corn farmers, it's the oil industry that duped Congress into going along with their plan. This goes back to Cheney's energy plan. Back then, there was a negative fuel energy balance, meaning it required more energy to make ethanol than the ethanol produced, and what made up the difference? Petroleum! However, this plan backfired with more efficient farming practices, so now the balance is positive, but not by much: 1.3 (compare that to producing ethanol from sugar cane: 8). So, for every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, the equivalent energy of 1 gallon is burned in that production process. Other studies drop it to 1.24, and some contend it's still negative. Peter Welch, Vermont's man in the House of Representatives, is an outspoken opponent of ethanol in gas, as he has had to rebuild many carbs, etc. on his chainsaws and other equipment, as have his constituents. The boat and classic car/motorcycle folks have been screaming about getting rid of ethanol, too. Since the oil industry is still selling more diesel to the corn farmers, they're not going to let that cash cow go anytime soon.

Maybe if we can vote Bernie into the White House this November, he can get rid of E10 with an executive order...I don't see it happening with any of the other candidates. Vote your fuel system!

FlyingRon
03-09-2016, 04:56 PM
That doesn't really ring true. It is the corn producing state politicians that have been the big push behind the renewable fuel mandates whereas those from oil states like Texas have been consistently against it.

Yes, Ethanol currently makes little sense. As pointed out, it's not produced in a "renewable" fashion now and it severely impacts other users of corn (like food predominently).

Mike M
03-09-2016, 08:07 PM
That list is a gross simplification. It assumes only ethanol and presumably a hydrocarbon, but not the simultaneous presence of water. Compatibility with water has to be included in any system involving longer term storage or even modestly contaminated fuel.

I don't even see epoxy resins on the list.

Of course it's an oversimplification. But it's still credible because it's provided by the people who make a living from the product. Epoxy resins is a BIG range of products, but people make a living with them, too:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-epoxy-d_786.html
https://www.epoxy.com/Epoxy_Chemical_Resistant_Chart.aspx
http://www.masterbond.com/properties/alcohol-resistant-adhesives-sealants-and-coatings
http://www.beaconadhesives.com/epxchmresis.html

It ain't rocket surgery or hangar tales. Ask the people who KNOW before putting money and flesh on the line.

nrpetersen
03-10-2016, 01:37 PM
Of course it's an oversimplification. But it's still credible because it's provided by the people who make a living from the product. Epoxy resins is a BIG range of products, but people make a living with them, too:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-epoxy-d_786.html
https://www.epoxy.com/Epoxy_Chemical_Resistant_Chart.aspx
http://www.masterbond.com/properties/alcohol-resistant-adhesives-sealants-and-coatings
http://www.beaconadhesives.com/epxchmresis.html

It ain't rocket surgery or hangar tales. Ask the people who KNOW before putting money and flesh on the line.. Agree - except it is not credible from E10 suppliers until unavoidable water is included in the E10 mixture. The boat people probably have the most relevant experience.

Mike M
03-10-2016, 02:13 PM
"Agree - except it is not credible from E10 suppliers until unavoidable water is included in the E10 mixture."

Fine. The topic was how to find alcohol-free gasoline. Thank you, "lost in time" and Chris Thomson.

Then it became the effects of ethanol on aircraft, with a lot of anecdotal experiences. So I found industry-standard info about ethanol compatibility with materials used in various systems on various aircraft. Not just E10, ethanol, which was the original question.

But that wasn't good enough. The lack of info about epoxies was raised. Since my wife used to sell epoxy tanks for industrial chemicals, I knew that wasn't necessarily a problem, and found y'all info on that. Now you want info on water in gas? We already know what materials ethanol doesn't play well with. Adding water isn't going to make the ethanol inert and stop corrosion unless there is some chemical magic nobody has yet discovered.

Don't put water in your aircraft fuel tank. Your mileage may vary.

You're welcome.