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View Full Version : Offering flight lessons in a homebuilt?



WingsAloft
12-01-2012, 02:18 PM
I'm considering becoming a CFI and am wondering if it's illegal to flight train students in a homebuilt? What if you don't charge any hourly rate for the plane? Thanks.

martymayes
12-01-2012, 04:53 PM
If you are providing a plane for flight training, it can not be a homebuilt. Limited exception for type specific training.

No hourly rate for the plane and $200 /hr for your exceptional CFI skills won't fool anyone.

FlyingRon
12-02-2012, 07:33 AM
That is the FAA viewpoint, but oddly enough it's not what the regs say. It's one of those big stupidities. While the 100 HOUR rule says carrying passengers for hire OR flight instruction where the instructor provides the aircraft, the experimental prohibition is just "carrying passengers for hire." We've got contradictory interpretations saying that instruction is not "carrying passengers" (if you're just talking about the student alone). Go figure.
The FAA never makes sense.

WingsAloft
12-02-2012, 06:23 PM
If you are providing a plane for flight training, it can not be a homebuilt. Limited exeption for type specific training.

Yeah, but I was wondering where in the regs it says that.

No hourly rate for the plane and $200 /hr for your exceptional CFI skills won't fool anyone.
Yeah, but I guess I just wanna teach people to fly at $0 an hour, because all I care about is gettin' more of us up there. (or shall I say up here?)

WingsAloft
12-02-2012, 06:27 PM
That is the FAA viewpoint, but oddly enough it's not what the regs say. It's one of those big stupidities. While the 100 HOUR rule says carrying passengers for hire OR flight instruction where the instructor provides the aircraft, the experimental prohibition is just "carrying passengers for hire." We've got contradictory interpretations saying that instruction is not "carrying passengers" (if you're just talking about the student alone). Go figure.
The FAA never makes sense.

You've just nailed the issue. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

martymayes
12-02-2012, 07:38 PM
Yeah, but I was wondering where in the regs it says that.
91.319(a).

Wondering if a student is a "passenger" (or ballast?) is irrelevant because the aircraft can't be used for anything other than it's intended purpose. A homebuilder can learn to fly in the airplane he builds. What he can't do is use the plane he builds and operate a flight training business. Even if he doesn't make any money doing it.


Yeah, but I guess I just wanna teach people to fly at $0 an hour, because all I care about is gettin' more of us up there. (or shall I say up here?) Yea, I see what you're saying. I guess if you wanted, you could create a flying club with the airplane. Then you can sign up a bunch of non-pilot members and give them flight training so they can fly their plane. Plus you could get paid for your teaching.

Dana
12-02-2012, 08:10 PM
Student or no, if a person on an aircraft is not a crewmember (on an aircraft requiring crew other than the PIC), then he's a passenger under the regulations.

Flight instruction completely for free might be legal. Charging $200 per hour for instruction and providing the plane "for free" might sound legal, but if the FAA notices and decides to pursue an enforcement action, remember in any enforcement case they're the judge, jury, and executioner. You won't win.

I've often heard the flying club idea proposed. Never heard of it being tested, though.

martymayes
12-03-2012, 06:24 AM
I've often heard the flying club idea proposed. Never heard of it being tested, though.

The problem with a homebuilt in a flying club won't be with the FAA, it will be with insurance. Many insurance companies won't touch it.

FlyingRon
12-03-2012, 06:55 AM
Ex Amateur built aircraft do not have any restrictions on their use in flying. The only requirement is they were CONSTRUCTED for educational/recreational purposes.

steveinindy
12-03-2012, 07:22 AM
Yeah, but I guess I just wanna teach people to fly at $0 an hour, because all I care about is gettin' more of us up there. (or shall I say up here?)

I'd be first in line for that as a student.

1600vw
12-03-2012, 07:59 AM
I'd be first in line for that as a student.

I would be second in line..

If a club would work why not start a club that is nation wide. Kinda like the EAA with chapters but have this a training club....Call It something like the...ATA.....Avaition Training Association.....

Each Chapter owns its bird and the CFI is paid through the ATA....

Thoughts.........

martymayes
12-03-2012, 08:03 AM
If someone wants to offer free flight training to the general public, they should buy a C-150 and go for it. Using a homebuilt won't make any difference.

WingsAloft
12-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Thanks, y'all.

1600vw
12-03-2012, 10:39 PM
You can train for free in and EAB and charge just for your services...Right from the horses mouth..so to speak..

http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=1801


http://eaaforums.org/images/imgQuestion.gif
Question :
Would it be legal to use an Experimental Amateur-Built AC to give flight lessons to others IF I do not charge for the A/C but only my CFI Fee?






http://eaaforums.org/images/imgAnswer.gif
Answer :
There is no restriction on giving or receiving instruction in an experimental aircraft. You could give instruction in an amateur-built aircraft so long as no fee was charged for the use of the aircraft itself. You would be allowed to charge a reasonable fee for your instruction.






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WingsAloft
12-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Would folks come all the way to Virginia for a $1,000 ppc? Because if I can teach in a VariEze at 3.5 gph @ $5.70 per gallon, do you realize that's only $800 for fuel? I don't care if I make any money or not, but I may have to charge a small fee just to help pay for hanger space, etc. So how about a $2,000 ppc?

WingsAloft
12-04-2012, 04:37 PM
I am shooting to become a cfi next year. I will be offering certificates less than $2,500. I will, perhaps in 2014, be offering CFI certificates to maybe some of y'all so we can establish these operations across the country. These will be at a greatly reduced rate, which I myself will subsidize. Question is, will I find any willing participants?

WingsAloft
12-04-2012, 04:42 PM
I also will, with every thousand or so dollars I save, be giving actual free training to a motivated individual, who does not have to be a student heading into the airline industry.

WingsAloft
12-04-2012, 04:46 PM
My dream is to offer $1,500 ppc's. I will get there.

martymayes
12-04-2012, 05:49 PM
Just curious, you have an examiner on board with this plan?

rosiejerryrosie
12-05-2012, 05:06 AM
Would folks come all the way to Virginia for a $1,000 ppc? Because if I can teach in a VariEze at 3.5 gph @ $5.70 per gallon, do you realize that's only $800 for fuel? I don't care if I make any money or not, but I may have to charge a small fee just to help pay for hanger space, etc. So how about a $2,000 ppc?

I'd certainly do it. Where in Virginia are you planning to do this?

1600vw
12-05-2012, 05:41 AM
Sign me up...

cluttonfred
12-05-2012, 05:58 AM
On the point raised on insurance companies not wanting to touch an experimental in a flying club, I have heard that joint ownership of a plane does not set off the same alarm bells as the word "club." So one solution would be to find a group of people interested in learning to fly and they, with or without the instructor pilot, purchase the aircraft. Then it is simply group ownership of the plane and there is absolutely no prohibition on receiving instruction in your own experimental, amateur-built aircraft, whether you built it yourself or not. You can also pay the instructor for his/her time. Just don't use the word "club" anywhere, something like "Sonex N12345 Owners Association."

martymayes
12-05-2012, 10:22 AM
Only need liability anyway, since the 'students' are not going to be out any money in the event of a hull loss. Have to work fast, get the training knocked out before the cease and desist order arrives in the mail.

1600vw
12-05-2012, 11:32 AM
Only need liability anyway, since the 'students' are not going to be out any money in the event of a hull loss. Have to work fast, get the training knocked out before the cease and desist order arrives in the mail.

Not breaking any laws no way they can make you "cease and desist".

WingsAloft
12-05-2012, 06:46 PM
Just curious, you have an examiner on board with this plan?

Not yet. Are you an examiner?

WingsAloft
12-05-2012, 06:52 PM
I'd certainly do it. Where in Virginia are you planning to do this? At KDAN or W78, both near the North Carolina border.

WingsAloft
12-05-2012, 06:55 PM
On the point raised on insurance companies not wanting to touch an experimental in a flying club, I have heard that joint ownership of a plane does not set off the same alarm bells as the word "club." So one solution would be to find a group of people interested in learning to fly and they, with or without the instructor pilot, purchase the aircraft. Then it is simply group ownership of the plane and there is absolutely no prohibition on receiving instruction in your own experimental, amateur-built aircraft, whether you built it yourself or not. You can also pay the instructor for his/her time. Just don't use the word "club" anywhere, something like "Sonex N12345 Owners Association."

That would seem the way to go. Thanks.

WingsAloft
12-05-2012, 07:11 PM
If a club would work why not start a club that is nation wide. Kinda like the EAA with chapters but have this a training club....Call It something like the...ATA.....Avaition Training Association.....

Each Chapter owns its bird and the CFI is paid through the ATA....
This is a great idea. Might even call it the "ATA", as you suggested. Maybe we'll grow in size and influence; get the World's attention. Bring the E.U.'s anti-GA machine to a halt! Reverse the declining GA pilot trend. What could be more exciting?

WingsAloft
12-05-2012, 07:23 PM
If someone wants to offer free flight training to the general public, they should buy a C-150 and go for it. Using a homebuilt won't make any difference.

I may end up doing that if the stint in homebuilts fizzles. The reason homebuilts seem attractive is for a reduction in fuel costs, and thus flight training costs. Think 5 gph vs. 4 gph. I know it's not so much of a difference, but the savings are there. And think of when ( I shudder to ask) fuel hits $9.00 a gallon? That's when the difference between 4.9 and 4.2 gph will become a great issue, and I want to be in a position to offer affordable flight even then.