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Bill Greenwood
10-18-2012, 10:31 AM
For the last year we have been hearing stories about real Spitfires buried in Burma by the RAF. It grabbed a lot of attention but nothing has come of it, at least not yet.
I have been pretty dubious of the whole thing.

Now the news media has a story that the govt of Myanmar, (used to be Burma), has signed a contract to dig up these planes. The head of the country and the Britiish Prime Minister, David Cameron had talks leading to this.

So maybe it will really happen, who knows if there is anything down there?

If the Spits were preserved and buried in crates by the RAF, I expect they would be in good condition, not destroyed by time or moisture like many suppose.

I wish the P M would get Rolls Royce to reopen a Merlin production line, some new ones of those would be very welcome. might be a little pricey though.

So what do you guys think? is this a pie in the sky story or are there really some whole planes down there?
How long before Tighar organizes a tour to observe the digging?

rwanttaja
10-18-2012, 01:34 PM
Back when I was a teenager, I had a 1946 Willys Jeep (immediate postwar civilian model, very similar to the WWII Jeep). When it came time to sell it, EVERYbody knew there was a guy in town who had dug up some left-over WWII models, and that the price I was asking ($600) was ridiculously high.

Well...them WWII Jeeps never did appear. I got my $600, and spent another $200 for a delux 1951 model.

I keep remembering this, with all the stories about buried Spitfires. They aren't in Greenland... The soil in SEA is warm, moist, and with a lot of organics in it. I question whether '40s technology could have protected the airplanes for 65 years. Especially when no one KNEW they'd have to be protected that long. I suspect the planes were prepared for ordinary shipping, only.

No doubt like "Glacier Girl," they'll be able to assemble a flying aircraft. But I'm betting they'll be brand-new aluminum

(Me 'n my replacement Jeep, a '51 model: http://www.wanttaja.com/jeep.jpg. I'm about 18 years old, here....)

Ron Wanttaja

Zack Baughman
10-18-2012, 02:14 PM
It's really hard to guess at the condition of these planes. IF they were shipped like some of the planes had been shipped to North Africa, Australia, and even England early in the war, they might have been coated in Cosmoline. Cosmoline is a very greasy, waxy oily substance that prevents rust. Over the years, we have received some donated items here at the AirVenture Museum that were coated in Cosmoline and still looked like new. That being said, if the integrity of the crates has been lost, then chances are the Cosmoline would have dried out, leaving a very wax-like substance covering the planes, which still could offer some protection. Who knows if any of these planes were actually coated in Cosmoline or had any other protection beyond the wooden crates?

It shall be interesting to follow this story and see what turns up!

Zack

rwanttaja
10-18-2012, 09:02 PM
It's really hard to guess at the condition of these planes. IF they were shipped like some of the planes had been shipped to North Africa, Australia, and even England early in the war, they might have been coated in Cosmoline. Cosmoline is a very greasy, waxy oily substance that prevents rust. Over the years, we have received some donated items here at the AirVenture Museum that were coated in Cosmoline and still looked like new. That being said, if the integrity of the crates has been lost, then chances are the Cosmoline would have dried out, leaving a very wax-like substance covering the planes, which still could offer some protection. Who knows if any of these planes were actually coated in Cosmoline or had any other protection beyond the wooden crates?
The story I read in the newspaper today said they were buried to hide them from the Japanese. If so, it was probably hurried with minimal protection.

Ron Wanttaja

Bill Greenwood
10-19-2012, 10:49 AM
There would be no logic in burying planes unless they were at least in some way protected and/or preserved. If you just wanted to keep them out of Japanese use, they could have just burned or crushed them.
If instead you wanted to dig them up later, you'd do some sort of case or protection.

My question is not so much of the condition, but whether there is any truth to the story of them beeing there at all.

Buzz
10-19-2012, 07:51 PM
Google "Buried Spitfires Burma". The news articles from 2 days ago has quotes from the British Government. The article I saw also mentioned the British PM signed an agreement in April with the Burmese president that was needed to get the excavation going. There is also a spokesperson from Downing Street being quoted.

If the story is a fabrication, he's got the office of the British PM fooled.

Bob Dingley
10-21-2012, 02:23 PM
Here's another underground aircraft story.
In the 1970's, the aviation press was reporting that Petroleum Helicopters, Inc. of Lafayette, LA bought a very large heavy lift helicopter from the Soviet Union. I think Breshnev was Premier. Fast forward a decade or two and my boss at a different company was telling me about his days at PHI and working for the late founder , Bob Suggs. We were sitting around with our milk and cookies one evening and "W" brought up the monster helo that Suggs bought. He said it was a MI-10 NATO code name "Harke." At the time, the largest skycrane type helicopter in the world. "W" was a loadmaster or flight engineer on it and Suggs campaigned it in the heavy lift business through out North and South America. He said that there was some kind of government financing on it. College of Industrial Arts or Community Investment Assoc or something like that with those initials and they threw most of the cash at this project. They got to play with it a lot too.
After a while, all parties lost interest in the big loud ugly critter. instead of giving it to an A&P school, it was decided to just quietly get rid of it. "W" tapped the wall map SSW of Lafayette, LA and said that he helped bury it RIGHT THERE. I doubt that its in salvegable shape because the water table is at the surface. I asked "W" if he was at least able to swipe the panel clock before the hole was filled in and he just smiled. That carcass is still there.

Bill Greenwood
10-23-2012, 11:30 AM
I have a friend in England, Steve Atkin, who is a Spitfire fan and has some knowledge of such matters. Steve knows David Cundall, the man who claims to have found these buried planes. Steve says he is "a good friend", a farmer in England. No proof , but one reference on the side that there may be something to this story.

Frankly, I certainly have some doubts about the story, but must reserve judgement till the digging is done, if it ever is. I am afraid the story may take on the character of the "Money Pit" mystery, with lot's of pit or pits, and a lot of money going in, but none coming out.

The idea that planes were buried "to hide them from the Japanese" is a strain in credibility. Why not fly them out? Or destroy them by crushing or setting fire to the gas tank? And it would take an enormous amount of work to dig a hole large enough to cover a lot of planes, whether 20 or 120, and such a hole would leave a lot of evidence that the enemy might excavate. Such a hole would not have been dug by hand lilkely, so what excavation equirtment did the troop have on hand at that time? Spits were in demand in combat in that area, would the RAF or U S just lose track of and forget about a large number of them? And would this have happened without a single photo surviving of it?

People get fooled by bogus stories, whether it is "birther" nonsense or some financial scheme from Nigeria, because they want to believe what is really an improbable tale.
And of course, once in a great while, just often enough to keep hope alive, the tall tale turns out to be true. Butch Schroeder heard for years a story about a Mustang in a garage downstate, and finally went to check it out. Sure enough, against all odds a real Mustang and not a four wheeled one by Ford, but an almost complete if disassembled Mustang and a photo recon one at that; and he flies it now.

I am not suggesting that Cundall is dishonest, he may firmly believe the stories that he has heard, but as of now, there are lot's of stories and no proof.

Once my young Sons were playing in our flower bed at our house, and dug up a "foot". Well part of the story is true, they definitely dug up something and it was a bone that really looked like a large foot. I was got a creepy feeling, hoping we had not found evidence of a murder in our yard. Charles, my 5 year old was firmly convinced it was a dinosoar bone and David tended toward evidence of Bigfoot. There was a story in the local paper about it. The explanation came from a local veterinarian that is was the lower jaw of a horse. It sure looked like a foot if you turned it the right way, and we never found the rest of the horse or how it got there.

I know a pilot who believes that aliens have made the crop circles, in England and he persists in this opinion even after the video taken at night of the nearby farm lads(definitedly non alien) stomping down the crops using a flat board with ropes on each end.

It is tempting to believe or at least hope that this Spitfire story is true, it would be a great find, and quite a service by David Cundall to history and his country.

danielfindling
10-24-2012, 04:07 AM
It's really hard to guess at the condition of these planes. IF they were shipped like some of the planes had been shipped to North Africa, Australia, and even England early in the war, they might have been coated in Cosmoline. Cosmoline is a very greasy, waxy oily substance that prevents rust. Over the years, we have received some donated items here at the AirVenture Museum that were coated in Cosmoline and still looked like new. That being said, if the integrity of the crates has been lost, then chances are the Cosmoline would have dried out, leaving a very wax-like substance covering the planes, which still could offer some protection. Who knows if any of these planes were actually coated in Cosmoline or had any other protection beyond the wooden crates?

It shall be interesting to follow this story and see what turns up!

Zack

My hunch is that they will dig up aircraft pieces of little salvageable value. How many times has a "time capsule" been dug up with a new car, precious papers etc. supposedly perfectly preserved - - only to find a pile of rust and dust?

Every once in a while though . . .

As an aside this is an example of a perfectly preserved boat full size buried for 3500 years. (Ok a pharaoh was involved)

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/greatpyramid5.htm

bdk
10-25-2012, 09:49 PM
I find it hard to believe that any crate would survive having all that dirt piled on it. It isn't like they were put in a tunnel that was mostly self supporting. My guess is that they were crushed the minute they were buried, or shortly thereafter. That's tens of thousands of pounds of dirt on those packing crates. Even steel sea containers can't withstand forces like that. It would take some very specially designed crates indeed with supporting members as heavy as railroad ties.

Furthermore, you can't dip an entire spitfire in cosmolene to get it into every nook and cranny inside and outside. Even if the outside of the skin were to be coated, moisture could get inside and corrode it from the inside out.

This all assumes they are even there of course. Supposedly they have taken core samples and put cameras down the holes and found aluminum. I sure hope this all comes to a successful conclusion. Maybe when that many are dumped on the market I will even be able to afford one!

Bill Greenwood
10-26-2012, 05:16 PM
bdk, you say a crate would not survive "having all that dirt piled on it". We don't know how much dirt, if any was put on these crates, if they were in fact buried there. You are correct that dirt is heavy, but there is no reason that these crated would be buried deeply. A wooden coffin can and has survived intact when it is only a few feet below the surface.

I have an RAF style crate for a Merlin engine, and it is fairly substantial, though I have never tried burying it. I am almost certain it could take 2 feet of earth on it.

I have a lot of doubts if there were ever any planes buried in crates in cosmoline, but if there were, I'd bet there is much, if not most preserved. I'd buy one on that basis if the price is right.

The story of the "core samples" sounds dubious. If you really thought that there was a crate with a factory complete Spitfire down there, would you risk drilling a hole right through the middle of it? I wouldn't, I would carefully dig down to find what was there.

bdk
10-27-2012, 02:28 AM
I would expect an engine crate to be built more stoutly than an aircraft crate. An engine is much more dense than an entire aircraft. I don't think that standard metal sea containers were used back then. A wooden crate was the equivalent. I doubt that any crates were ever designed for burial. In the case of a coffin, nowadays they are usually put in a concrete vault for just this reason. They are not typically buried right in the dirt. In any case, they are much smaller and not buried very deeply. All this is speculation of course.

So how do you think the Spitfire market will be affected if 120 airframes are recovered in "restorable" condition?

Bill Greenwood
10-27-2012, 09:06 AM
Bdk,My engine crate is wooden. I assume any airplane crate would also be inthose days. And as for weight, an engine might be about 1700 lbs while the entire airplane would be around 7000 lbs. Both would have to be strong enough to support the weight when they were lifted by crane on or off ships. So the box for the entire plane would be strong also.

In referring to a coffin, I didn't mean a high end modern metal coffiin, I meant one of the wooden ones in the old days that were buried in the earth as they were. I have seen some on tv dug up years later and were ok.

The point is that if, THE BIG QUESTION, if these planes were buried as preserved in crates, then we have no info or even reason to believe that they were put far under ground under many feet or tons of earth.

Digging a hole big enough to put an entire airplane crate in is a lot of work, why do you think they would do more work to bury them deeper than needed? Especially in a hot hunid climate?

I would be ready to bet money that there are not 120 full airplanes buried down there, but if so I think there would be a lot of buyers, including govts if they are available. A good flyable Spitfire now is probably $3 million or so, and these may well be more fully origianal and equipped. If they are Mk XIVs, they are a little less desireable than a Mk IX or of course a V.

Louis
11-07-2012, 02:08 AM
Is there any new word on the Spitfires? I was under the impression they were going to start digging at the end of October.

Zack Baughman
11-12-2012, 08:12 AM
Some news from October that I somehow missed: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9638613/Revealed-the-wealthy-backer-helping-the-hunt-for-the-buried-Spitfires-of-Burma.html

Bill Greenwood
11-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Zack, that is very interesting, and I had not seen it before. This isn't the plot of a new Bond film is it?

Still hard to know how much if any is true. I had some doubts when reading the Spitfires are supposed to be buried "deep underground". If buried at all, why would anyone want them deep so that it requires more work to bury them and also that they are more likely to be damaged, either crushed or more likely to be flooded by ground water. So, if they were buried, it seems more likely that they would be near the surface.

The part about the man from Belarus, and his not wanting to fly "in a very old small aircraft", but rather to see them fly from the ground really grabbed me and got my attention. I am trying to be calm and properly skeptical and logical about all this, but my pulse jumped up pretty good.

We can always have hope.
If these folks put real Spitfires back in the air, it will be a good thing.

rwanttaja
11-12-2012, 08:14 PM
I like the quote from the backer: "He also admits that for his company, the sums of money being gambled are “replenishable”."

Something to consider: How big of a hole would they have had to dig? The Spit is roughly 30 feet long. Wing chord at the root looks to be about seven feet. Sans prop, the fuselage is probably five feet high at the tail. So if the plane is crated with the fuselage above the wings, we're talking about a crate about 30 x 8 x 6 feet. And there are... dozens of these things? How deep did the top of the crates need to be?

The crate is about the size of a small recreational vehicle. We're talking a HUGE hole, about eight to ten feet deep, and about 60 feet square just for a dozen aircraft. It's going to take more than one erk with an e-tool. Even a bulldozer or two might not be sufficient. Imaging the the amount of dirt that has to be stacked up, and will be remaining after the crates are covered. This is a massive undertaking...and no one took pictures? None of the native Burmese witnessed it?

Consider, too: How do you get those huge crates, weighing three tons or so, into the hole? You can't just drag them through freshly-dug dirt. You need a crane.

If the British had a couple of bulldozers, it would have been a MUCH quicker job of disposal to just drive the bulldozer through the crates.

Finally, consider: The crates are wood. They probably rotted away and collapsed fifty years ago. As they collapsed, they should have filled up from the overfilling dirt. Which means dips and even outright holes should have opened up above.

My guess is the Brits had a dozen or so planes, bulldozed them, and buried the wreckage. Like any urban legend, it's just grown over the years....

Ron Wanttaja

danielfindling
11-13-2012, 05:38 AM
Some news from October that I somehow missed: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9638613/Revealed-the-wealthy-backer-helping-the-hunt-for-the-buried-Spitfires-of-Burma.html

Makes you wonder if this whole thing is merely a marketing campaign for his new video game World of Warplanes. Sure can't hurt.

Daniel Findling

bdk
11-13-2012, 10:41 AM
Why doesn't someone just look up the environmental impact report from when they were buried? :-)

Zack Baughman
11-30-2012, 10:03 AM
Here is the latest on the Burma Spitfires:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20515659

jhausch
12-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Thanks for the update. This is fun to follow, regardless of what happens.

Thomas Brown
01-05-2013, 12:02 PM
Looks like David Cundall and his team left this weekend to start getting to work. Even if they don't find anything...this is still very interesting....bring it on!

Zack Baughman
01-07-2013, 08:54 AM
The excavation team is now in Burma and the dig should be starting shortly. A BBC update here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20925300

You're absolutely right Thomas, this is an interesting story to follow regardless of the outcome!

Thomas Brown
01-07-2013, 10:26 PM
Just saw on the news where a Spitfire had a gear collapse on landing at East Midlands Airport in central England. Maybe it might be better if they shipped all of them over here to the USA...you know...for proper handling and safe keeping! :P Just kidding!!! I'm sure if any are found, a few of them will probably end up on this side of the pond eventually.

Thomas Brown
01-09-2013, 05:52 AM
Getting closer!!! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/burmamyanmar/9789830/Burma-Spitfire-search-finds-water-filled-crate-that-may-contain-plane.html

Bill Greenwood
01-09-2013, 04:10 PM
My mind doubts that there really are complete Spitfires down there.

But my heart tells me that I hope they are. I don't know David Cundall, but have a friend who vouches for him. I do know Peter Arnold, and if he says they are there it is good enough for me.
I wish I could be over there for the next week or so.
Good luck to all.

Bill
01-18-2013, 11:20 AM
An article on BBC News today reports that the archaeologists digging for buried Spitfires in Burma over the past week have concluded that there are no buried planes. Wargaming.net, which sponsored the dig, has said the same thing.:(

David Cundall still believes in the buried planes, but has only eyewitness reports from long ago to go on with no physical evidence to corroborate those reports.

WeaverJ3Cub
01-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Disappointing, though I always had the feeling it was a long shot.

Humanity has been searching for buried "treasure" since time began....

Floatsflyer
01-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Too bad, so sad. Many of us so wanted him to find them. Hopefully the group won't give up....perhaps just a few feet in another direction. Nobody found the Titanic the first time looking!

Bill Greenwood
01-19-2013, 11:54 AM
If the story seems too good to be true it probably isn't .
Other sites are reporting that the dig found no Spitfires, only some old non airplane part metal.

I never believed they were there, it was not logical, but still had hope.

KevinR
01-21-2013, 06:38 PM
Just joined.
I've been following this story for a long time. The story out of Burma this week is not that there are no Spitfires it's that they haven't found any where they are digging at the moment. That does not mean there are none. There are several sites all over the country that are yet to be explored and they are not finished with the site they are at. We can armchair quarterback all day long the truth is we just don't know. We are not there and have not seen the data being use for the hunt. The deep radar scans of one of the sites does show objects the right size and shape. We won't know until the holes are dug. This is just the start of the search and there is a lot more work to be done.
As to the state of the aircraft that is anybody's guess but they were shipped preserved for the voyage. According to one of the eye whiteness they sealed the crates with felt paper and tar then set them on logs before filling the holes. Did that happen? Maybe but we just don't know. I reserve judgement until the last whole is dug.

Buzz
01-22-2013, 07:31 AM
An article on BBC News today reports

It would be helpful if there would be a link to the news story.

Buzz
01-22-2013, 07:50 AM
It would be helpful if there would be a link to the news story.

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/21/169621797/in-myanmar-a-hunt-for-fabled-cache-of-buried-wwii-spitfires

Here's a report from NPR that is 16 hour old. It concludes with this statement:

British media reported Friday that the team has failed to find any planes and is giving up. The team says those reports are wrong, and the hunt continues.

[Can't adjust the font from the cut and paste.]

KevinR
01-22-2013, 11:38 AM
Thank you Buzz

Bill
01-22-2013, 09:05 PM
Here's the link to the BBC report. Its the most recent from BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21074699 Did anyone doubt that Dave Cundall is a true believer and will never give up no matter what.

Thomas Stute
01-23-2013, 11:13 AM
For me the whole story is unbelievable. All who have served in the military, no matter for which country, know about the bureaucracy involved. They just do not loose anything without a trace in lists and files, especially in case of such a large number of first line fighters. So there should be a trace in the archives, if the story was true. I'm convinced there's too much wishfull thinking and day dreaming involved.

Zack Baughman
01-23-2013, 12:00 PM
Just my opinion, but I think it's entirely plausible that Spitfires could have been buried at Mingaladon Airfield. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but quite a few P-38s were bulldozed at Clark Field in the Philippines at the end of the war. If you don't believe me, just check out the photo here: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/airfields/philippines/clark/1945/dump-p38-dozer.html

Zack

Check 6
01-23-2013, 12:24 PM
There was quite a few B-25s buried on the SE side of Mt. Vesuvius that received damage when she erupted in 1944. http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/Vesuvius.html

Floatsflyer
01-23-2013, 01:20 PM
Just my opinion, but I think it's entirely plausible that Spitfires could have been buried at Mingaladon Airfield. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but quite a few P-38s were bulldozed at Clark Field in the Philippines at the end of the war. If you don't believe me, just check out the photo here: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/airfields/philippines/clark/1945/dump-p38-dozer.html

Zack

That picture is heartbreaking.....such a shame. But who knew then that Warbirds would become the objects of intense desire and significant financial gain decades later. Like the guy I know personnally who became the first exclusive north american product distributor for a company named Sony(he began by selling transistor radios out of the trunk of his car in the 1950's). If I only knew then what I know today!

Bill Greenwood
01-23-2013, 05:14 PM
One can have faith that it just requires digging in the right place to uncover these planes.

But we can also remember what Mark Twain said, that "Faith is believing in something when you know it ain't so."

rwanttaja
01-23-2013, 11:19 PM
Just my opinion, but I think it's entirely plausible that Spitfires could have been buried at Mingaladon Airfield. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but quite a few P-38s were bulldozed at Clark Field in the Philippines at the end of the war. If you don't believe me, just check out the photo here: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/airfields/philippines/clark/1945/dump-p38-dozer.html
Put some sand-and-spinach camo on them, paint a few roundels, and you could well be looking at the Burmese Spitfires.


For me the whole story is unbelievable. All who have served in the military, no matter for which country, know about the bureaucracy involved. They just do not loose anything without a trace in lists and files, especially in case of such a large number of first line fighters. So there should be a trace in the archives, if the story was true.

Yes, but: We are talking about the end of a world war. We are talking about men who have been 10,000 miles from home for several years.

Then, suddenly, the war is over. They're looking at a field with 100 pristine warbirds.

What to do with them? The Government has another 1,000 of them sitting around airfields and factories back home. No reason to ship them home; besides the vessels involved could be better involved in carrying hundreds of thousands of soldiers home for demobilization.

So, the supply folks in Burma (or the Philippines, or North Africa) are instructed to "dispose" of the aircraft. But how? Are they supposed to put them up for sale, scrap them for the metal value, what? It's almost impossible to get clarification of the orders...they can't pick up a cell phone to call the War Office, and what long-range radio links exist aren't going to be wasted on mere supply matters. It'll take months to query London and get the response.

So, the supply officers tell themselves, "This is the last task we have to do before getting on the ships back to England. None of us can leave until we complete the disposal. What should we do?"

They do what stumped officers have done for 2,000 years: They ask a sergeant.

And the sergeant introduces them to a fine old military term: "Expended in place." It means that the property has completed its intended function, is damaged beyond economical repair, and is just left where it's at. For aircraft, it's typically implemented by dropping a grenade into the cockpit. Those rich Yanks might bulldoze them into a neat pile, but it isn't really necessary. All you have to do is drop the grenade, stamp "Expended in Place" in the paperwork, and it's over. " Get on the ship, lads, we're headed for Blighty."

When (and if) the paperwork ever gets back to England, the receiving officer grunts and throws it away. The planes are accounted for and no longer exist. It's just BUMF at this point....

I don't doubt that there could be hundreds of Spitfires under the soil of Burma. What I doubt is whether there are enough intact parts remaining to put together even one complete aircraft. Heck, how much of the exterior skin of "Glacier Girl" is authentic WWII aluminum?


I'm convinced there's too much wishfull thinking and day dreaming involved.

Yep....

Ron Wanttaja

KevinR
01-24-2013, 06:32 AM
Latest piece in AvWeb, http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2422-full.html#208056

Ron remember as the story goes these aircraft were still in their shipping crates.;)

Thomas Stute
01-24-2013, 05:10 PM
Ron, you are a great story teller and I like your story. Well, thinks could have been like that, or somehow different. Like all of us, I would like to see the spits emerging from the soil of Burma but it is hard to believe in that. And you're completely right concerning corrosion.

rwanttaja
01-24-2013, 08:49 PM
Ron remember as the story goes these aircraft were still in their shipping crates.;)
Reminds me of the time I took an airliner from DC to Seattle. The plane was full of high-school kids coming back from a band trip to Europe. I got stuck sitting next to their teacher, and he spent the whole trip telling music jokes. One was:

Q. What's the difference between a bass fiddle and a violin?
A. The bass fiddle burns longer.

You wrap those Spitfires with nice, flammable wood, and our theoretical British supply sergeant is just gonna smile. Slather on some nice ignitable creosote, and you're REALLY gonna make his day....
2754

Ron Wanttaja

Bill Greenwood
02-06-2013, 01:18 PM
It is reported on another site that a British man says he was a RAF Spitfire pilot in Burma in 1946 and never heard of any being buried, nor saw any such digging.

He makes another cogent point that although Spits were shipped in wooden crates, they were assembled and test flown at one major site, like India and then flown the the dispersed air fields.

Noted Spitfire expert Peter Arnold says he is back from the dig, and give the story a few more weeks to be sure.

KevinR
02-16-2013, 12:42 PM
The story is over. The search bias been called off and they wre headed home. I really hoped this was true.:(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21483187

Bill Greenwood
02-16-2013, 02:08 PM
Kevin, your reference says that the archeologists have calleed off their search at the main site. It doesn't say that David Cundall has stopped at the other sites.
Now I never thought the Spits were there, the buried story doesn't make any sense.

And Ron, the idea of purposely burning an new servicable Spitfire is abhorent to me and also makes no sense. In 1946 a Spitfire, especially a Mk XIV, was still a front line fighter, and had military value. Jets were begginning to come in , but the RAF used Spits up to 1958 and many other countries used and would have been glad to have them. Israel , India, and Ireland for instance.
So when we hear from Peter Arnold that there is no more searching going on or any good leads to follow, then I would say there is no realistic expectation of finding one. Until then, pehrhaps a small hope.

Bill Greenwood
02-16-2013, 02:18 PM
There is another Spit story that I have heard, of which I have no proof or references at all, but here it is. I have no details, but it is a story that could have a grain of truth.

At the end of the war a Royal Navy carrier was returning to England with a deck load of Spitfires, when an order came down, no doubt from the "great grey men" in the Admiralty to discard the Spits by pushing them over the side.
The crews refused to carry out the order.

KevinR
02-16-2013, 02:21 PM
Bill are you reading the right link? The second headline in link I posted today says "Archaeologists have called off a hunt for World War II Spitfires in Burma." Not the AvWeb story, the BBC story that was published today.

rwanttaja
02-16-2013, 03:11 PM
And Ron, the idea of purposely burning an new servicable Spitfire is abhorent to me and also makes no sense. In 1946 a Spitfire, especially a Mk XIV, was still a front line fighter, and had military value. Jets were begginning to come in , but the RAF used Spits up to 1958 and many other countries used and would have been glad to have them. Israel , India, and Ireland for instance.
Doesn't really make sense in the context of 1946. There may have been a hundred Spitfires in Burma, but there were hundreds, if not thousands, still back in Europe. For that matter, the Supermarine production line was still cranking them out, and wouldn't stop for several more years. At the same time, DeHavilland was producing Vampires and Gloster was building Meteors. According to Wikipedia, there were 16 RAF squadrons with Meteors by 1946. I'm sure the RAF liked to keep some Spitfires around, but operationally, they were second-line fighters by 1946. Plenty extra, for any potential exporting.

Sure, they were perfect for some of the up-and-coming countries. But Israel didn't exist for another year; what's more, the people organizing that were actually FIGHTING the British. No one was thinking of selling Spitfires to Haganah. India, too, didn't become independent until 1947, and there was a LOT of British opposition. Gandi probably didn't want Spitfires, but there were others that probably thought they might be useful in encouraging the British to leave a bit quicker.

Yes, the Irish operated Spits for a while. But it was easy for them to take the quick hop across the Irish Sea and inspect potential purchases in Britain. No need to buy a Spit-in-a-Poke in Burma.

Two high-probability destinations could have been Australia and New Zealand. I don't doubt the RAAF and the NZRAF operated them post-war. But I think their records probably reflect where their planes came from, and I doubt they would have taken previously-buried aircraft as long as new ones could still be shipped from England.

Context is important. We get teary-eyed today, contemplating "The Few" and the birds they flew to victory. We look at the pictures of the post-war scrap yards and bemoan the Mustangs, Fortesses, and Liberators going into the shredders.

But in 1946? The war was over, the warriors wanted to get back to normal, and the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, Thunderbolts, and Wildcats were of no greater emotional impact than the rows of Sherman tanks and Fletcher-class destroyers awaiting disposition.

For a movie showing this context, I recommend, "The Best Years of Our Lives." The B-17 crewman, back from Europe, eagerly takes a job that involves scrapping the same airplanes he flew in combat.

Right now...assuming they existed at all...I think the fate of the Burmese Spitfires was in the hands of my theoretical grenade-juggling supply sergeant.... "Would that be sunny-side up, or easy over, sah?"

Ron Wanttaja

KevinR
02-18-2013, 09:27 AM
Wargaming.net cuts funding and pulls out of the project. David Cundall says he won't give and will continue looking.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2441-full.html#208184