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TonyG
08-09-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm looking to get started with gas welding and am at a loss for what equipment I should invest in. Looking online, I can spend anywhere from $100 to $600+ on torches/regulators/etc. I guess the real question is: why DON'T I want the Harbor Freight welding kit special? When the whole kit costs as much as the Smith torch handle, I get suspicious. Is there any noticeable difference between a $30 regulator and a $100 (both are single stage)? How about torches?

-Tony G

Mike Switzer
08-09-2011, 06:05 PM
Go down to whatever local welding store the millwrights & iron workers go to when they are spending their own money, & buy whatever good brand they carry. You will sooner or later need parts &/or service & you will want someone local. Personally, I use a Victor 100 that I bought in the early 90s when I was doing a lot of industrial construction & maintenance work (it is small enough it is easy to carry when climbing around on steel but big enough to cut well), I didn't see any sense in buying another torch so I just went in to Ernie's & he ordered me some different sizes of welding tips.

If welding aircraft tube is all you will use it for get the aircraft torch, they are a little smaller & lighter, but if you want to cut with it get one of the small multipurpose outfits.

Some of the cheaper no name units like from harbor freight are pure junk, the regulators don't regulate well, & the valves on the torch don't maintain constant flow rates.

Hangar10
08-09-2011, 07:10 PM
If you have the patience, scour sites like Craigslist. I acquired my welding rig for a song by being patient and shopping that site over the course of several weeks. I purchased five regulators (three Victors and two Craftsman), three handles (two Victors (J-100 type) and a Craftsman) two cutting attachments, a rose bud, several tips and a striker for $100 from an older fellow that just wanted the stuff out of his garage. I sold the craftsman regulators and cutting torch for $75. Next I found a Dayton gas cart (lists for $185 at Grainger) for $70 in a farmers barn. A few accessories and I was ready to burn holes in metal for slightly over $100. Over time I did buy a new set of lightweight hoses and have had my regulators rebuilt (highly recommend this if you buy used), but I'm still only into the rig for about $200... and this is name brand and serviceable stuff!

Once you have the hardware it is time to survey your gas options. I would NOT recommend buying used bottles second hand from Craigslist or anywhere else... most suppliers won't touch these things, and if they do, YOU are responsible for the testing (every 5-7 years I think). It is easier and cheaper to just go rent or lease your bottles. I leased mine for 10 years for $500 (large bottles)... if I run out of gas I pay for a refill, but the vendor takes care of any bottle or valve maintenance. You may have other options, but this was the best one for me.

If you do buy used and need any kind of rebuild service on your torch handles or regulators, I would recommend Bill's Welding Repair in Oklahoma City, OK. They have very reasonable rates, use the correct parts and have a quick turnaround. I was without my regulators for one week and they work like new. Hope this helps!

Aaron Novak
08-09-2011, 07:36 PM
Well I will assume you mean aircraft welding. I would avoid the HF stuff at all cost, the regulators are junk and the torch is too large for any real work. So that being said I will stick to quality tools for this post. If cost is a serious concern, I would set up the following:

Uniweld 71 Handle
Uniweld 17 tips
Smith 30 series regulators
3/16 "R" hose

This is an all US made aircraft type torch that will serve you very well, the tips are Victor "J" type. Total cost witout cylinders should be about $350.

The next step up would be the following:

Smith AW1A Handle
Smith AW tips
Smith Versa-Torch kevlar braided hose
Smith 30 series regulators

This is a little better quality setup with a lifetime warranty on the hande, and a nice lightweight hose. Total cost will be about $500 depending where you source the parts.

There are a bunch of other brands too, these are just some industry standard setups, if you need more help or part numbers shoot me an e-mail novakperformance@yahoo.com
-Aaron

TonyG
08-10-2011, 12:35 PM
Thanks for the tips, and yes, this is for welding a steel tube fuselage. I figured Harbor Freight was going to lead me down the road to ruin, but appreciate the confirmation of that. The allure of low prices appeals to the pocketbook, though the brain knows I should invest in good tools. Guess I'll start saving up, while watching Craigslist for the good buys in the mean time. There are a few machine shops that I work with in my job, and with any luck maybe they can point me toward good welding vendors in the area as Mike suggests.

I'm definitely sold on the idea of renting tanks. For one thing, I don't have any welding projects on the horizon following completion of my homebuilt and don't really want to deal with storing tanks indefinitely. And since my workplace gets a weekly delivery of gases, maybe with some luck I can tag my own order onto it one week... Alternatively, Airgas is located just down the street from the airport.

Thanks again for the food for thought, guys.

-Tony

Aaron Novak
08-10-2011, 04:03 PM
Tony,
My advise would be to stick to new regulators, and find a used torch if price is a big concern. Few regulators handle the low flow rates of the small torches, the Smith 30 series is the most economical type that does the job well. Rental of big cylinders is a good idea. Anyway if you find something used and want to ask about it feel free, If its an aircraft size torch I probably have it in the collection and can tell you if its decent or not.
-Aaron

TonyG
08-10-2011, 04:18 PM
Thanks, Aaron. I will take you up on that. Regarding regulators, any thoughts on items marketed as "medium duty" vs otherwise? Curious what the difference is - presumably flow rates. Is there a metric I should keep an eye out for when selecting a regulator?

Edit: How about flashback arrestors vs check valves?

-Tony

Biplaneranch
08-10-2011, 07:53 PM
What do you experts have to say about the Heinrob torch? I believe they've been sold and may have a different name now. I've heard they are the cat's pajamas, especially for welding aluminum. I've seen their advertising brag about using uniquely low gas pressures, but have seen welding books recommend those same pressures for regular torches as well. Should one shell out the 500 bucks for one of these?

Aaron Novak
08-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Lets put it this way, its better than a railroad torch for light gauge work. Other than that its nothing special, and extremely awkward for tubing cluster work. Its no better for aluminum than any other decent torch. Does some nice sheet cutting work on steel though. Personally I would stick with a traditional aircraft torch. As for regs, the "duty" title is kind of misleading, the medium dusty smiths are whats called a 30 series, the part number starts with 30. Radnor brand regs are junk for what we are doing, as are all the knock offs as they are dampened for cutting torch flow rates, not low flow rates. Harris heavy duty regs are suited well for our torches but expensive. The smiths are an excellent value.

Hangar10
08-10-2011, 09:28 PM
Tony, My advise would be to stick to new regulators, and find a used torch if price is a big concern. <snip>

Not trying to get into a big debate, but if you can find a good deal on a set of used regulators of a known brand (Smith/Victor), and they aren't physically beat up... don't pass them up. I am using a fairly common set of Victor regulators... SR250C for oxygen and SR260A for acetylene... standard duty stuff. I had the pair rebuild for around $50 and they regulate nicely, even with a 000 tip. Aviation torches are nice, but tracking down specific items can get pricey and some of the "aircraft" torches, while nice for welding light gauge materials, aren't as versatile as a trusty ol J-100 when it comes to changing gears to heavier materials, cutting, heat treating, etc.

Again, just my .02... keep you eyes peeled, you find what you are looking for.

TonyG
08-10-2011, 11:22 PM
I spent much of the afternoon pricing a gas welding setup using new equipment. It actually doesn't look quite as bad as I initially thought. I was able to find an oxy/acetylene pair of new Smith 30-series regulators for $136 and the Smith AW1A handle for $103 (compared to $190 and $122, respectively, at Aircraft Spruce). I priced a setup minus tanks and cart at around $325 from an online vendor. Not sure what to invest in for check valves, however. Are simple check valves acceptable (~$14 brandname Smith), or do I need to go for those specifically marketed as flashback arrestors ($50-$75 Smith/Victor)? Any opinions on regulator mount vs torch mount?


And now that I look at more details, any recommendations on tip sizes? AW201/203/205?


I'm still keeping my eyes out, and will sleep on this purchase for a little while, but even new equipment looks more affordable than I thought.

-Tony

Jeff Point
08-11-2011, 01:11 AM
+1 on the Smith torch. I recently picked one up, after welding 95% of my fuselage with a Harris 15 and later the Mecco mini torch. The Smith has much better valves, a real weak spot on the Harris, and just feels like a higher quality unit. I wish I would have started with it, but live and learn. As for tips, I'd buy all 3 of those, you'll mostly use the 201 and 203 size for welding but the larger one will come in handy at times.

As for bottles- I "bought" a used set from the local Airgas place. I say buy, because in reality I just got a used set of bottles, and when they're empty I just take them in and, for the price of a fill up, trade it in for a full one. You can also start small and trade up to a bigger size for the price difference. No need to rent bottles, or to go out and purchase new ones.

Aaron Novak
08-11-2011, 08:19 AM
Well as Tony found, New smith regs are only $60 or so each, not worth rebuilding old ones for that. And seriosuly if you want to weld a fuselage and aluminum sheet, a J-100 is a real club. If you want to work on a trailer or farm equipment a J-100 is fine though. The Harris 15 is not a bad torch, I wish it had stainless stems from the factory though. As for check valves and arrectors......they are not commonly used with small torches since the pressure ( and flow rates ) are so low that the risks are greatly reduced. Cutting or using a large torch, then a set of checks would be in order. Here is the issue, since the pressures are so low, a flashback arrestor many times wont actually sense the flashback and shut off. Check valves require higher pressure to open, and can cause the flame to pulse.

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 08:20 AM
Most of the new torches have check valves built into them.

TonyG
08-11-2011, 11:21 AM
Jeff: Regarding buying vs renting tanks, my main concern with a purchase is that I'm now responsible for maintaining and storing the tanks. I really don't want to have to store partial bottles of oxygen and acetylene in the hangar until the next welding project arises, whenever that is. Otherwise I like the idea.

Check valve info duly noted. The EAA aircraft welding book I've been reading recommends arrestors, so I assumed they were a necessity. Intuitively, I would think lower pressures and flow rates would be MORE conducive to flashback. Live and learn. It looks like the AW1A does not have check valves built in, so they may be an investment to be made at some point just in case.

Onward to safety gear... I've seen eye protection recommended at a #3 to #5 tint. As I wear glasses, I'll want a face shield rather than goggles. Aircraft Spruce has one listed (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/faceshield.php), with no darkness specification. Are they pretty standard (#5?) unless otherwise noted?


-Tony

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 11:36 AM
If you wear glasses you will probably need stronger ones for welding. My eye doc says I need 1.50 in my bifocals (I need 1.75 to read fine print), but I have to use a 2.50 lens in my welding goggles to be able to see what I am doing.

When I got my welding tips I asked about the arrestors & Ernie recommended that I not get them, he said any little pop ruins them & then you need to buy new ones or take them out to be able to do anything, he said the checkvalves are all you need.

Aaron Novak
08-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Mike,
No aircraft type torches ever had check valves. As far as I know Victor is the only company using check valves in the handle on their large Ag type torches.
-Aaron

P.S. the AS face mask is a shade 5, but you might find it to be a pain when hanging in a fuselage. Why not just put a set of cheaters in a normal welding goggle set?

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 12:11 PM
No aircraft type torches ever had check valves. As far as I know Victor is the only company using check valves in the handle on their large Ag type torches.

You could be right, Victor is all my favorite welding store carries. :)

He showed me the Victor aircraft torch, it was quite a bit smaller than mine, but given the price difference between it & just buying welding tips for what I have I didn't think it was worth it. It had checkvalves on it but they might not actually come with it unless you ask for them.

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 12:31 PM
Since I took the Sportair welding course last year, I have been doing everything for the farm with the torch. I like using it a lot better than my mig (which I havent used once since starting with the torch) and I have done heavier things that I used to have to borrow my buddy's arc welder for.

Aaron Novak
08-11-2011, 01:14 PM
Mike,
They do make "A" size check valves.......apparently to satisfy hyperactive lawyers. I have a couple sets, they are cute but are worthless. The flame flutters, pressure have to be higher, just goofy acting.

TonyG
08-11-2011, 03:34 PM
If you wear glasses you will probably need stronger ones for welding. My eye doc says I need 1.50 in my bifocals (I need 1.75 to read fine print), but I have to use a 2.50 lens in my welding goggles to be able to see what I am doing.


That's a new one on me - why the difference?

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 06:30 PM
Partly because you are closer, but also because of the shaded lens. I don't know if this holds true for everyone (I didn't need reading glasses until I turned 40) but as I understand it brighter ambient light causes the pupils to get smaller, which (at least in me) changes how your eyes focus. I can read in bright sunlight but indoors I have to have reading glasses. The shaded lens does the opposite & actually makes it harder for me to focus on stuff close in, so I need the stronger lens.

spungey
08-11-2011, 08:45 PM
Partly because you are closer, but also because of the shaded lens. I don't know if this holds true for everyone (I didn't need reading glasses until I turned 40) but as I understand it brighter ambient light causes the pupils to get smaller, which (at least in me) changes how your eyes focus. I can read in bright sunlight but indoors I have to have reading glasses. The shaded lens does the opposite & actually makes it harder for me to focus on stuff close in, so I need the stronger lens.

Yup. It happens for everyone. Cameras do it too. It's called "depth of field." The depth of field is the distance, front-to-rear, in the field of view that covers all of the things that are in focus. When your pupil is larger, fewer things are in focus (naturally) so your muscles work to flex your lens ... and you get tired.

I just wish someone would figure out how to make some kind of differential welding filter so that you don't have to look at a bright spot on a dark background. Hmmm ... laser welding (and laser goggles) anyone? ;)

Mike Switzer
08-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I just wish someone would figure out how to make some kind of differential welding filter so that you don't have to look at a bright spot on a dark background.

That is part of why I don't like to use my mig anymore. I have an auto darkening electronic welding hood, and when I was working away from home (over 10 years ago) Dad "put it away" for me, & I cant find it, and he can't remember where he put it, so I have to use my old one with the flip up lens. Can't see a dang thing, it is either blind yourself with the first arc or start blind & the first arc is 1/2 inch away from where I want it.... And I'm too cheap to buy another one, because as soon as I do we will locate it....

TonyG
08-12-2011, 12:27 PM
Well, I think I've decided on a gas welding rig.

Smith 30-100-540 Oxygen Regulator
Smith 30-15-510 Acetylene Regulator
Smith AW1A Torch Handle
Smith RA921 Grade R Hose, 12ft
AW201 Welding Tip
AW203 Welding Tip
AW205 Welding Tip

Tanks will be rented. Per this EAA article (http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/welded/Aircraft%20Welding%20and%20Steel%20Tube%20Fabricat ion%20-%20Part%202.html), I'm thinking a 40CF acetylene tank and 60CF oxygen tank will be suitable, but I'm open to suggestions.

Total cost, less tanks and safety gear, is about $350 before tax. I'm planning to order online from Weldfabulous (http://www.weldfabulous.com), though I may get the hose and tips locally (maybe A.S.). Might save the sales tax, as I think they're out of state. Shipping estimates are cheaper than the sales tax. I have been looking into used equipment sources and I just don't think it's worth the trouble. I'm not going to find a much better price on the regulators ($136 combined), and honestly I feel it's worth it for the new equipment. The torch handle I would be willing to purchase used, but the people who have the AW1A aren't selling them, and the ones that are selling them know what they're worth. I'd like to think I might run across one for $50 or so, but I'm not holding my breath. At $103, Weldfabulous is fine. Tips and hose I might just purchase at A.S. since the price is comparable and I can divide the purchase into more manageable budgetary chunks. Plus it's an excuse to go over to A.S.

Next up is learning to actually weld, which I have a few leads on. I left a message with the local EAA chapter as well in the hopes of finding someone more in-tune with aircraft welding (or at least inspection).

Onward and upward

Aaron Novak
08-12-2011, 12:31 PM
Congrats on your choice Tony, now you have a setup that will allow you to weld all the materials you will need to build your plane. Cylinder size looks good to me, should be able to weld 2 or 3 fuselages with that set. As for learning......maybe its time for a sportair welding class is CA??
-Aaron

Mike Switzer
08-12-2011, 12:50 PM
Hmm... It doesn't look like there are ANY gas welding courses on the schedule. What's up with that?

Tony - if you have never done any welding you should expect a long learning curve & lots of practice. I have a lot of arc welding experience so I was able to pick up what was taught at the SportAir gas welding workshop with just a little practice, but it would have been more difficult if I hadn't already had that experience.


You might think about getting more hose, 12' will have you moving the cylinders a lot. I think I have 30', I can reach most everywhere in the shop but I still have to move them if I have to work on something outside the door.

TonyG
08-12-2011, 01:24 PM
I've been watching the SportAir schedule for 6 months to no avail! And I obviously couldn't justify travelling to Texas or where ever the last gas welding workshop was held. I wish I had been more on the ball when I went to Oshkosh last year and would have attended some welding forums, though at the time I wasn't really in a position to make progress on the build (and had plenty of other things to occupy me that week). I've looked into the local JCs hoping for courses, but they're not really scheduled around the 9-5 worker and I'm not keen to take half days at work several times a week. I know several people who know how to weld and will be hitting them up for some instruction. I'm expecting a steep learning curve, but I really don't mind as long as I know how to judge my own weld quality. My main concern is that I'll inspect a weld and call it good, when in reality it's crap. I'm willing to put in the practice if I have a metric with which to gauge progress. I know there's a lot of talent and experience at a nearby EAA chapter, so I suspect that will be a major source of knowledge in the process.

Also, I'll go ahead and spring for the 25 foot hose per your suggestion, Mike. Makes little difference in price, and probably a lot of difference in the level of annoyance while moving around the shop.


-Tony

TonyG
08-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Just for the record, if anyone is following this thread and curious, I called up several gas suppliers in Southern California. I started with the big 2 (Airgas and Praxair), as well as Cameron Welding Supply (3 locations, all in SoCal) and one small place. Praxair was not willing to rent, but had cylinders for sale at around $400 (presumably for both, but I don't recall the capacity). Another local place, being relatively small, does not rent tanks but sells 55CF oxygen cylinders for $120 (full) and 40CF acetylene cylinders for $150 (full). Refills are $15 and $28, respectively. Airgas rents cylinders at $0.50/day, and Cameron rents at $0.35/day with a $170-$200 deposit. Unfortunately, the guy I spoke with said the smallest they rent are 130CF capacity.

We use Cameron's services where I work so I'm thinking about adding onto our weekly delivery, which may avoid the deposit as well. I'm not too hot on such large tanks though. I guess the real problem is mobility, which shouldn't be THAT big a deal if mounted to a wheeled cart and with a long enough hose. To play devil's advocate, I'm also seeing what it takes to buy the tanks outright, which is $150-$250 in 10-40CF capacities when new according to A.S., Weldfabulous, and Cameron's website. Not thrilling.

So take those numbers for what they're worth. YMMV.


-Tony

Mike Switzer
08-12-2011, 08:12 PM
To quote Hank Hill, "Holy crap...."

I have a 145 ft^3 acetelyne & a 150 ft^3 oxygen (and a nitrogen & shurgon, approx the same size (nitrogen is for purging the O2 from the wine tanks)) & I'm paying Ernie $36/year/cyl rent. And I'm pretty sure he's an airgas dealer, but HE owns the cylinders.

Mike Switzer
08-12-2011, 08:16 PM
And here in the upper midwest NOBODY sells cylinders anymore, they only rent, that is how they make their $$$$, the margin on the gas is non-existent

Aaron Novak
08-12-2011, 10:11 PM
Up here in WI we own our cylinders, few people rent. Mine are in the 150 CF range and I have 7 total. Airgas is about 80% of the business here.

Bugs66
08-13-2011, 01:31 AM
Meco Midget torch with light weight hoses is what I used for my project. Once you use this little torch you won't use any other for O/A thinwall welding. www.tinmantech.com (http://www.tinmantech.com)

Mike Switzer
08-13-2011, 08:49 AM
Up here in WI we own our cylinders, few people rent. Mine are in the 150 CF range and I have 7 total. Airgas is about 80% of the business here.

It must be a regional thing, I have worked construction jobs in MO, IL, & IN & we always had to rent, it was about impossible to find anyone who would fill our cylinders.

Aaron Novak
08-13-2011, 10:45 AM
Can't say as I blame the welding suppliers, I wouldn't trust a Bears fan to own cylinders either :). The Meco is a nice little torch, and with longer necks it is handy for tubing work, however.....I have found that it has its limitations on heavier sections like landing gear fittings. Back in the days of aircraft production with O/A they would commonly use a "full size" torch for the heavy sections, and the "aircraft torch" for everything else. The sheet welders had small torches like the Midget, or a Victor J-40 or a Marquette P. I find myself doing the same thing.
-Aaron

Mike Switzer
08-13-2011, 11:19 AM
Hey now.... I am NOT a Bears fan (even though they started here in Decatur). My family has always rooted for the Packers.

Although I'm more of a baseball guy, as long as the Tigers are still in the race I don't watch much football.

Jeff Point
08-13-2011, 11:55 AM
Ditto the Bears comment. And since when is central Illinois in the "upper midwest?" Last time I was there I detected the hint of a southern drawl. Does it even snow there? :rollseyes:

Mike Switzer
08-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Well, it sure isn't Dixie. Illinois is the state that gave us that no good Yankee president ;)


(And yes people, that is a joke)

Aaron Novak
08-15-2011, 06:41 AM
Hey Guys,
I was going through the shop this weekend cleaning off the shelves and realized that I had some duplicate torches and parts. As an FYI I kind of have a small museum collection of O/A welding torches that were used in aircraft type production, about 70 of them, most being brands that havent existed in 50 years. Anyway I have a spare Victor J28 setup with a handle from 1950's and a full set ( 000-#4) tips that are about 5 years old. The handle is in like new condition as are the tips. If anyone is interested send me a PM or e-mail me at aaron_novak(at)mercmarine.com.
Thanks!!