So we're renting out flight line space now?

[Antique Tower]

I don't like this at all....

http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/AV12_chalet_sellsheet.pdf (http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/AV12_chalet_sellsheet.pdf)

[CarlOrton]

Hmmm... First time I've seen this, but I haven't been scouring the EAA website thru all the rabbit holes for awhile.

My first reaction is "*sigh*", Oh well. But, looking at it pragmatically, I can see where there may have been some demand for it from the higher-eschelon vendors present at the event. Note that it's not EAA selling the luxury suites to members for a day or week. These are for VENDORS to entertain their guests.

At every major event, deals like these crop up. While most of us deal with the homebuilt/experimental side of EAA, there are those who attend to either buy or sell multi-million $$ hardware. When you're dealing with that level of customer, there's a certain amount of expected butt-kissing/schmoozing to be done.

It's the vendor's fault, not EAA's. That's my ignorant assumption, and I can sleep better thinking it. ;-)

[martymayes]

push them-thair homebuilt contraptions out of the way an they'll have a lot of room to expand. It will be just like the Dayton Air Show!

[Antique Tower]

push them-thair homebuilt contraptions out of the way an they'll have a lot of room to expand. It will be just like the Dayton Air Show!

Or the Blue Angels in Pensacola. You can't even see them march out to their airplanes unless you're one of the Chosen....

[Old Timer]

This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking. :(

[steveinindy]

While most of us deal with the homebuilt/experimental side of EAA, there are those who attend to either buy or sell multi-million $$ hardware. When you're dealing with that level of customer, there's a certain amount of expected butt-kissing/schmoozing to be done.

What's nice is that if you're on the higher end of the homebuilt/experimental stuff (or at least willing to BS that line if you're not of the same inclination as myself and my compatriots), you can pick up some really great free swag, food, etc. NBAA had one places in basically that same area these last year and it was free Coke central. I got to watch Fifi leave the last day of the show from there. If it had not been for those chalets, I never would have been able to get a more or less unobstructed view of her run-up and take off.

[steveinindy]

This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking

That's the only drawback, although I think this particular area was taken up for the past couple years by the same setup. But then again

That said, I wouldn't want my baby to be parked that close to show center in case one of the airshow birds loses control and it becomes Ramstein 1988 all over again. That or in case Mr. Roush tries to fly himself in again....either or....

[martymayes]

This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking. :(

There's plenty of room for homebuilt parking.........in Fond Du Lac.

[steveinindy]

There's plenty of room for homebuilt parking.........in Fond Du Lac.

God bless you Marty. Always the perennial optimist! ;)

[Mike Switzer]

There's plenty of room for homebuilt parking.........in Fond Du Lac.

There is a real nice airport in Rockford with plenty of parking for homebuilts... ;)

[steveinindy]

There is a real nice airport in Rockford with plenty of parking for homebuilts... ;)

Good luck getting the cargo boys to put up with Oshkosh level traffic. LOL

[FlyingRon]

They did it last year, too.

[Clarke Tate]

Family, homebuilts, kids, and real personal and vintage aircraft front and center (not chalets!). Magazine cover is a table of contents, not a nice airplane photo. I looked at Sport Aviation very little again this month. I find the old archives more interesting which really does not bode well for the organization.

[steveinindy]

I find the old archives more interesting
To a certain degree, I'll agree with you. If I'm looking for ideas or things to copy, I look at Sport Aviation or one of the other aviation magazines that are current. If I'm looking for "how to" information, I look towards the archives. Both have their pluses and minuses. It's also nice to be able to look back and see how far we've advanced from the origins of homebuilding and to wonder what became of some of the more eccentric ideas that have come out of the hobby....


which really does not bode well for the organization.

Having been tangentially involved to varying degrees with the EAA since 1988 (mostly as a "hangar rat" with one of the chapters back home), that's not a new refrain like a lot of people want to make it seem. I've come to kind of come to accept that the only thing some pilots like to do more than fly is search for things to get their undies in a knot over. That's not directed at you personally Clarke...more of a general observation.

[Kyle Boatright]

They did it last year, too.

Last year, it was one pavilion. This year it is 5.

IMO, this is the kind of thing that doesn't cause a lot of angst if things are going well and the members are generally satisfied. When a sizeable portion of the membership base is openly questioning the direction of the organization, this is fuel for the fire.

As someone posted earlier in the thread, there appears to be a spark of inspiration on the VAF site to collect proxies and attempt to elect one or more directors who better represent the homebuilt movement. Without a significant effort, it will be very hard to overcome the advantage the current EAA proxy process gives to the powers that be...

[martymayes]

Family, homebuilts, kids, and real personal and vintage aircraft front and center (not chalets!). As it would be when Mr. Paul was in charge.

Time to do the math Clarke: 1 chalet last yr @$40k/wk., somebody figured WOW! this is easy money. 5 chalets this yr =$200k/wk. I suspect there will be more next yr., families and kids can take their homebuilts and vintage airplanes to the N. 40. A $40 annual membership prolly covers the weekly rental for 1 portapotty.

[Jim Clark]

Sell one more chalet and use the money to lower the price of water from the insane $3.00 per bottle down to the mildly ridiculous $2.00 per bottle.

[Antique Tower]

What bothers me most is the golf carts. We're supposed to be DECREASING the number of vehicles at the airshow.

[steveinindy]

When a sizeable portion of the membership base is openly questioning the direction of the organization, this is fuel for the fire.

I've still yet to see anything conclusive to say a "sizable" portion is openly doing anything? A couple dozen people griping on internet forums isn't a valid sample and you're smart enough to know the danger of assuming that just because you hold an opinion doesn't mean that when you encounter a few others who do that it means you're part of a grand majority or something. I'm not saying which side is correct. The answer is likely neither because there has to be middle ground because either you guys are going to finally get ticked enough to totally stop caring, showing up and griping or you get your way and the funding shrinks and you get something new to gripe about. What I am saying that relying on anecdotal evidence is probably not the best way to just the mood of a group where most of them are not taking part in that sample. Especially an internet forum where you have no way of knowing that what is put out as several people is not what it seems.
For example, how do you know that FlyingRiki, MartyMayes, FlyingRon, MikeSwitzer and myself aren't all just one person having an "argument" with himself? ;)

I know a lot of people who have petty gripes but I don't know that it's a sizable chunk of the EAA membership. I've got a few grievances myself but not anything that I can't see why they are doing what they do to appease the aspects of the membership who differ in interests from my own. I'd like to see a lot of the non-aviation vendors run off of the grounds. I'd like to see that little reenactors' camp done away with so there'd be more parking for Cubs or RVs or whatever but the warbird guys want them there apparently.


As someone posted earlier in the thread, there appears to be a spark of inspiration on the VAF site to collect proxies and attempt to elect one or more directors who better represent the homebuilt movement. Without a significant effort, it will be very hard to overcome the advantage the current EAA proxy process gives to the powers that be...
I think trying to work to get the EAA back to a "happy medium" is a good idea. I don't think it should be reduced to nothing but an RV type club or an all ragwing show or a "Nothing but auto conversions" hour. The thing is that abandoning ship so to speak and letting the EAA 'wither on the vine' as has been previously suggested by some is to abandon not only the work of so many that you guys or myself would not dare spit in the face of but also to abandon the "political capital" and connections the Association has. We can't underestimate that.

As Paul said, "There's room enough for us all". Perhaps pushing for a representative (or preferably two) from each of the areas of homebuilding would be a good idea? That way, everyone:
-Ultralights
-Ragwings
-Kit builders
-Wood designs
-Composite builders
-Seaplanes
-The "kerosene club"
-Warbirds
-Helicopters
-Auto conversion engine guys
-Et cetera, et cetera
....have a vote and a representative. Paul and his friends put too much time and effort into this to let it die. If the majority of EAA members support such a move, I say go for it. My only fear is that we simply wind up with a "new dictator" who caters to a different special interest group and this cycle starts over again.

All of that said....
Here's my practical question: If we get rid of the big vendors, the sponsorships, et cetera, how precisely are they supposed to fund the event? You start doing away with that stuff, membership rates go up to cover the costs of the event. People will gripe about that. They start doing away with aspects of the show to keep costs down. People will gripe about that. Maybe I am looking at this more like a business than whatever you guys who have been around longer than I have see it as....



A $40 annual membership prolly covers the weekly rental for 1 portapotty.

I hate to admit this, but one of my cousins runs a company that rents them. They generally run about $250 for a weekend rental. Just FYI...not sure how much of a discount you get for "bulk" orders.


As it would be when Mr. Paul was in charge.

And you'd have about half to two-thirds the attendance because you're limiting the audience. Oshkosh- out of all the aviation events I go to annually- is the only place I can get my addiction in all its permutations satisfied in one place.

[steveinindy]

Sell one more chalet and use the money to lower the price of water from the insane $3.00 per bottle down to the mildly ridiculous $2.00 per bottle.

Agreed.


What bothers me most is the golf carts. We're supposed to be DECREASING the number of vehicles at the airshow

Can I have one if I agree to keep a bucket of ice with bottled water in the back? $1 donation to the non-profit that we are starting to sponsor safety research is suggested but not required to take a bottle. It kills two birds with one stone. ;)

[Chad Jensen]

This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking. :(
Not really. It's about 12 spots. The good news is we are actually netting UP about 50-60 spots because homebuilts are getting the converted "Red lot" this year. That's a HUGE win for the homebuilt area.

[flyingriki]

See, what is everyone so worried about? Homebuilt parking, front and center as it should be at the EAA extravaganza, is given to the high rollers and the planes that used to be an important part of the show are shuffled off to a corner of the car parking and told that it's a "...HUGE win "......
Somebody is drinking too much of the koolaid.
YES, they ARE renting out flight line space and shoving us out of the way. This greed is getting out of control.

[Burtles]

"someone has drunk the koolaid" was my EXACT thought there too!

My estimate from the EAA brochure is that 19 homebuilding parking spots will be lost from the flightline, leaving just 17 spots in that area. So we lose more than 50% of the prime flightline exposure space for homebuilt aircraft.
But we've got some new parking spots out in the boonies, whoop de doo.

[Chad Jensen]

I don't have 60 years of experience that a few of you guys do, but when I think back on my 10 years of coming to Oshkosh, I don't feel that what I'm saying is drinking the koolaid. I love AirVenture. Every aspect of it. Always have. It's a great place to see thousands of homebuilts, warbirds, vintage airplanes, aerobatic airplanes, Ultralights, helicopters, seaplanes, big planes, little planes. It's a great airshow. It's a great time to meet with friends in the campground. It's a great place to see new and innovative designs and panel technology. A great place to meet with vendors. The list goes on.

It's just a fantastic week! It has been for me for 10 years. I'm now on staff at EAA. That doesn't change the fact that what I like about AirVenture has always been what I like about AirVenture. A great show, and I want to see it succeed and be available for generations of aviation people to come.

BTW, most people that I talk to do not want to park on the flightline. And that goes back decades where people simply don't want that many people swarming their pride and joy.

[Burtles]

And it now becomes much clearer why EAA took a position against the AirVenture Cup, this new chalet area is slap dang in the middle of where the racers usually park.

[Chad Jensen]

See, what is everyone so worried about? Homebuilt parking, front and center as it should be at the EAA extravaganza, is given to the high rollers and the planes that used to be an important part of the show are shuffled off to a corner of the car parking and told that it's a "...HUGE win "......
Somebody is drinking too much of the koolaid.
YES, they ARE renting out flight line space and shoving us out of the way. This greed is getting out of control.
BTW, that area that we are getting for homebuilt parking, was going to go to warbirds. We made our case to the planning committee, and got the space. Yeah, it's over in a corner, but it's more parking for us, meaning more homebuilts for people to look at.

[Old Timer]

I already decided to miss Oshkosh for only the second time in 40 years because I can't afford the steep rise in admission for my wife (50% price rise).

We won't be back.

[keen9]

Well thank God some of those homebuilts will now be parked in a location where it'll be nice to stroll through them, and take time for a good look. Keep the masses holed up in the middle of the grounds and away from the nice projects!

However, it would be nice if there was a prominent homebuilt presence in front of the masses. Everyone that leaves OSH should know that its possible for them to build an aircraft in their garage! That is not the case today.

Finally, no more !$^&!#%&@#$&*%@#$%&*@&@% golf carts!!!!!! To make it worse, these new carts are specifically for people who want to feel entitled. Ugh!

[Antique Tower]

Chad I don't think one can argue that there is not enough Antique parking - we didn't come close to filling the area around the Hangar Cafe last year.

The problem is the increasing stratification of the Oshkosh society. Some pigs are better than other pigs.

My wife and I have hoofed it everywhere with our four kids in tow, one in a stroller, only to be run off the road by teenagers in six-seat golf carts out joyriding. WE can't bring a golf cart, or rent one. We can't even ride our bikes on the flight line. But folks on corporate expense accounts (many of whom are actually being PAID to be there) get to cruise right up to their air-conditioned tents.

I see the corporate business sense in this. I can also guarantee it will not be well-received by the old-school members.

[Zack Baughman]

Finally, no more !$^&!#%&@#$&*%@#$%&*@&@% golf carts!!!!!!

Just a quick comment on the golf carts - while I DO agree with you that there are entirely too many golf carts on the grounds, I would like to point out that as an EAA staff member, the carts are ESSENTIAL for doing our jobs during AirVenture. Most of us wear numerous "hats" during AirVenture, which means we have multiple areas we are responsible for. Unfortunately, most of those areas are not adjacent to one another on the grounds. Until teleporters become a reality, the carts are a must for timely movement around the grounds. In my case running the Timeless Voices oral history program, carts are a necessity for transporting WWII veterans and other interviewees from the grounds to the museum where the recording studios are located and back again in a timely manner.

Just my opinion here, but I think ALL the cart operators need to slow down a bit and we all - pedestrians and cart operators both - need to be more wary of our surroundings.

Zack

[martymayes]

And you'd have about half to two-thirds the attendance because you're limiting the audience.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

[Burtles]

The problem is the increasing stratification of the Oshkosh society. Some pigs are better than other pigs.

I couldn't agree more.

[flyingriki]

BTW, most people that I talk to do not want to park on the flightline. And that goes back decades where people simply don't want that many people swarming their pride and joy.

Nice try. People that feel that way don't park there. And it doesn't address the loss of front line Eaa for the benefit of high rollers that runs against just about any grain I can think of in our world of Eaa......

[Jeff Point]

BTW, most people that I talk to do not want to park on the flightline. And that goes back decades where people simply don't want that many people swarming their pride and joy.

Only half true- this goes back to the mid-90s, when the flightline was opened up to the masses in the name of being more inclusive (and selling more flightline passes- anybody remember them, like pit passes?) When that happened the flightline was not longer safe and many old timers vowed never to bring their airplanes back.

[Jeff Point]

Just a quick comment on the golf carts - while I DO agree with you that there are entirely too many golf carts on the grounds, I would like to point out that as an EAA staff member, the carts are ESSENTIAL for doing our jobs during AirVenture.

Zach, while you are absolutely correct concerning staff (and many volunteers for that matter) this kind of misses the point. Unnecessary vehicle traffic is the issue, not necessary traffic. It is worth noting that the new location of the chalets is within the "no vehicle zone" established several years ago (a good idea.) How is that going to square with the idea of giving golf carts to the high rollers at the chalets?

Wait, I've got it- valet parking!

[Clarke Tate]

Downsizing maybe? Ok, I know this won't be popular at headquarters. There can be a point where more isn't better, it is just more! Simplicity, core display of aircraft. A simple presentation, this is supposedly a club gathering or at least that was the initial roots. Side shows to attract more visitors, that are not really more than just more numbers. The organization wants to be "inclusive" in statements I see here. That is well and good but there is so much "extra" around the core and the event is so big that it has really diluted the message. Chalets are certainly indicative of this and may I say exclusive, not inclusive. Sometimes families downsize to refocus resources toward what is important and this might be another way to be more inclusive for the organization. This is after all a club event about aircraft and celebrating personal aviation and the dream of that. It seems to have strayed a bit.

[steveinindy]

Chalets are certainly indicative of this and may I say exclusive, not inclusive

I can't say anything but the fact that the NBAA and their setup was very inclusive. I was treated well, give free drinks and told to enjoy the air conditioning as long as I liked.


Assuming facts not in evidence.

Admittedly yes. However, I see no justification to turn around and discriminate against fellow pilots simply based on their interests. The whole "some pigs are better than others" argument seems to be a little odd given that you all are arguing that your 'pig' deserves a better parking space than some other 'pig'.


When that happened the flightline was not longer safe and many old timers vowed never to bring their airplanes back.

I wouldn't want my plane parked up there but that's just me. I don't plan to ever go to Oshkosh to try to show off my airplane so I guess that makes me a bit odd.

As for the personally, there's a reason why I've always joked that one could fit a parked airplane with something like the "internal ursine deterrent" system described in Michael Crichton's The Lost World. Nothing says "Do not touch" like a couple hundred volts at a low enough amperage to be unpleasant but not harmful.

[MEdwards]

This is after all a club event about aircraft and celebrating personal aviation and the dream of that. It seems to have strayed a bit.Probably most attendees would agree with that. And they still enjoy themselves enormously. But repeatedly we see that the Association views it as a corporate event about money.

[steveinindy]

But repeatedly we see that the Association views it as a corporate event about money.

Show me any large event that is not or does not become about that.


Probably most attendees would agree with that. And they still enjoy themselves enormously.

Exactly. To me it's about seeing old friends, making new ones and scoring as much "free" stuff as I can from people I'll probably never buy anything from. It's also about figuring out what I want to copy in my design for my personal aircraft.

[keen9]

Unnecessary vehicle traffic is the issue, not necessary traffic. It is worth noting that the new location of the chalets is within the "no vehicle zone" established several years ago (a good idea.) How is that going to square with the idea of giving golf carts to the high rollers at the chalets?

Wait, I've got it- valet parking!What he said! And a PS, its not just unnecessary golf carts . . .

[RV8505]

It takes alot of money to operate the EAA and the programs it provides.

[WingsAloft]

Alot of people feel offended by the proximity of richer folks---I don't. But aren't they given special privileges? No, they are just enjoying the actualness of their wealth. I have no problem with that. In fact, bring them in! I love the money that peels away from their bulging wallets and floats on down to our organization! And all I have to do is not ride around on a golf cart? I'm in!

[WingsAloft]

Oh, wait a sec! I almost forgot! It's not that I must not ride a golf cart, that's not the point at all. It's that I must bear to see someone ELSE ride one when I can't! That's not so bad except those people include rich guys! (who spent way more than I did to come here---but that doesn't matter!)
(However, I respect the feelings of members who feel let down, please don't take offense.)

[WingsAloft]

I'm a "broke" flight student. He's a Boeing CEO. I'm sitting in the sun on a bench, he's sitting in the shade in a pleasant roped-off area. I order a tuna sandwich, he orders...what was it called? I arrived via Piper, he arrived via Lear. I look at him and say, sure glad there exists Boeing 747's. He looks at me and says, sure glad there exists the masses to stuff them into. Soooooo? Would I be offended? Will I refuse to enjoy my tuna sandwich until HE has to eat one? Will I not enjoy my bench until HE is reduced to sitting on one? Will I not thrill in the adventures of being a broke flight student until HE'S a broke flight student? Will I insist on such equality? No! Why? Because there is, on the other side of the world, a little girl in the slums of Asia longing at an overhead airliner. Longing to soar, but longing more to just eat. Folks, WE are the ones in the nice, pleasant roped-off area.

[WingsAloft]

We should HELP that little girl! (and the millions of boys and girls like her.) Give her the opportunity to learn to fly! (There is or will be soon a pilot shortage in India, yet many possible future pilots are growing up in slums YET they are not being educated and will likely grow up jobless...something's wrong here!) Expand education and YE in India! No dream is too small to challenge reality! EAA could actually contribute to this, you know. THAT'S WHY we need to stick together, RIGHT? To expand aviation thoughout the world. But of course every member has a right to voice their concern. I'm just asking you to consider this, that's all.

[flyingriki]

It takes alot of money to operate the EAA and the programs it provides.

So...most, if not all, the planes and exhibitors that ARE 'airventure' are not only free but pay to be there (plus all the other costs just to get there, stay there and get home), 'most' the help is volunteered, yet they charge through the nose for everything from water to the privilege of sleeping on mud. If it's supposed to be a big fundraiser why not just say so instead of all these hokey excuses?
I know, I know they need to pay for Rod's PR guy! :rollseyes:

[RV8505]

So...most, if not all, the planes and exhibitors that ARE 'airventure' are not only free but pay to be there (plus all the other costs just to get there, stay there and get home), 'most' the help is volunteered, yet they charge through the nose for everything from water to the privilege of sleeping on mud. If it's supposed to be a big fundraiser why not just say so instead of all these hokey excuses?
I know, I know they need to pay for Rod's PR guy! :rollseyes:

I volunteer and the EAA provides soft drinks and lunch and a small breakfast for free all day long and if I work so many hours I get a free pass next year.

For Example, Take a wild guess how much it takes to support one port a potty during Airventure.:rollseyes: Take a wild guess.!! We all know there are hundreds of them and they are there a least a month before Airventure and some are there a week or so after.

Take a guess!

[Kevin O'Halloran]

This is to all you guys that are bitching about the fees , cost , etc
I was once in your camp--thought we were getting ripped off big time.
A month ago I flew up from Oklahoma to help in the first EAA weekend work party
( also dropped off some camping gear)
I spent the day putting up signs on building and anything else they needed. Until you work on the grounds and see all the infrastructure --You have no idea what it cost and the manpower involved.
I'm surprised that they can put this thing on for anywhere near what they charge us for passes, camping fees, etc---the grounds and building are not just there for the week of airventure--they are there the whole year---and it takes money to keep all that stuff up !!! Most of those big buildings have not been built by our $110.00 week pass--they were built by the money that corporations put up--So if EAA gives them some extra space on the flight line--so be it. Its the way the world works
After 3 days at Oshkosh--I now have a better understanding of what it takes to put this show on. So much so--that I paid to became a Life member before I left--Money well spent !!!
Kevin O'Halloran
Cordell, Oklahoma
picture is the camping gear we dropped off2064

[flyingriki]

For Example, Take a wild guess how much it takes to support one port a potty during Airventure.:rollseyes: Take a wild guess.!! We all know there are hundreds of them and they are there a least a month before Airventure and some are there a week or so after.

Take a guess!

Gee....maybe the cost of water sales for an hour? Get a grip buddy. Now we're down to the astronomical charges at 'airventure' paying for crappers..... I'll just bet there is a little left over.

[flyingriki]

This is to all you guys that are bitching about the fees , cost , etc
I was once in your camp--thought we were getting ripped off big time.
A month ago I flew up from Oklahoma to help in the first EAA weekend work party
( also dropped off some camping gear)
I spent the day putting up signs on building and anything else they needed. Until you work on the grounds and see all the infrastructure --You have no idea what it cost and the manpower involved.
I'm surprised that they can put this thing on for anywhere near what they charge us for passes, camping fees, etc---the grounds and building are not just there for the week of airventure--they are there the whole year---and it takes money to keep all that stuff up !!! Most of those big buildings have not been built by our $110.00 week pass--they were built by the money that corporations put up--So if EAA gives them some extra space on the flight line--so be it. Its the way the world works
After 3 days at Oshkosh--I now have a better understanding of what it takes to put this show on. So much so--that I paid to became a Life member before I left--Money well spent !!!
Kevin O'Halloran
Cordell, Oklahoma
picture is the camping gear we dropped off2064

There are a lot of folks that seem easy to fool. Some even fly nice NON-Eaa aircraft.....and seem to be taking over our organization.

"I spent the day putting up signs on building and anything else they needed. Until you work on the grounds and see all the infrastructure --You have no idea what it cost and the manpower involved."

Did you get paid? So where is the cost?

"the grounds and building are not just there for the week of airventure--they are there the whole year---and it takes money to keep all that stuff up !!! Most of those big buildings have not been built by our $110.00 week pass--they were built by the money that corporations put up"

So let me see if I get this right. Corporations build hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of infrastructure/buildings for free and we should be glad we are paying for $3 water to pay what, property taxes (deductible) and what else (deductible)....?

"I'm surprised that they can put this thing on for anywhere near what they charge us for passes, camping fees, etc"
I thought you said this is how they pay for all the other programs?
Make up your mind.

What in the world are you trying to say? :rollseyes:

By the way, those of you who continue to buy this nonsense, thank you! We need you to support the incredible circus that Oshkosh has become. Every few years some of us come see what the circus has become and enjoy it, sorta, but wonder at what a zoo it is and what in the world happened to Paul's vision. Oh yeah....Tom.

[RV8505]

I volunteer and the EAA provides soft drinks and lunch and a small breakfast for free all day long and if I work so many hours I get a free pass next year.

For Example, Take a wild guess how much it takes to support one port a potty during Airventure.:rollseyes: Take a wild guess.!! We all know there are hundreds of them and they are there a least a month before Airventure and some are there a week or so after.

Take a guess!

The EAA Pays $50.00 per day to rent and service every one of the hundreds of port a pottys on the field for over 30 days. That ain't chump change. That is just one example and I am sure there are many like it.

[RV8505]

By the way, those of you who continue to buy this nonsense, thank you! We need you to support the incredible circus that Oshkosh has become. Every few years some of us come see what the circus has become and enjoy it, sorta, but wonder at what a zoo it is and what in the world happened to Paul's vision. Oh yeah....Tom.[/QUOTE]


If you think your getting ripped off don't come.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

If you think your getting ripped off don't come.

Won't.
Happy now?
Think I'm the only one?
What's that do for your program?
Keep drinking that koolaid........................................... .................................................. ......................[/QUOTE]

flyingriki
I know you don't want to go back on your antidepressants for the fear of losing your medical--but in your case I think it would be the wise thing to do.
You slam everybody and everything --yet you don't want to volunteer
You hide behind the name "Flyingriki" so you can throw insults at EAA and other people ( makes you feel big doesn't it--thats very sad )
I've come every year since 1995 and never once had to buy a bottle of water ( plenty of free water on the field) So tell me again why it bothers you so much that people have that "option" to buy --or not to buy--bottled water??.
I'm sorry your not coming to Oshkosh--but if you have nothing to ADD to the program--And you find no joy in it--Your right to stay away and work on your personal problems at home.
Kevin O'Halloran ( my real name)
Cordell Oklahoma ( where I live)

[Zack Baughman]

Folks,

Opinions are fine and dandy, but let's stay away from personal attacks against each other. It accomplishes absolutely nothing whatsoever. Consider this a warning.

Zack

[Kiwi ZK-CKE]

I couldn't care less what type of aircraft anyone flies - but I do pay attention to how they treat others. Have to say the impression on reading this thread (and several others in the forum) isn't good. Fortunately I know most aviation folk (even Canard drivers) are decent sorts... obviously some exceptions though!

[Brian Hartwick]

You ever wonder why the motto of EAA is "The Spirt of Avaition" and not "Homebuilts Only"? I would suggest most of us aviators appreciate all aspects of aviation, from the basement builds to the Shuttle, from the ultralights to the spam cans, from the backpacks to balloons including the flying lawnchair. Some might even like a rock band that has a song about a jet plane? See you all in about a month to celebrate aviation.

[Clarke Tate]

Be nice everyone!
If you have an opinion please state that opinion but getting too personal will lead to ruining the forum. We all love aviation and need to treat each other well even if we have a divergent opinion.

[Bill Greenwood]

In my opinion, although EAA may have begun with homebuilding, even then it was more than just that. Paul had been a miitlary pilot and liked warbirds. Osh had Steve Whitman and his race planes. Acro was part of flying for many of the early EAA guys.It is just not going to be limited to one segment now.

Those who want it to be just inexpensive homebuilding, should have their own mini convention somewhere and they can keep it very basic and very cheap and maybe bottled water will only cost a dollar there. But I don't think attendance will be very large.

Like some of our other posters, I am somewhat put off by having a VIP chalet area, that is just sold to the high bidder, rather than a true ip like perhaps Bob Hoover. Maybe the EAA can profit so much that a few of these are worthwhile, but I hope it does not grow so much that it takes up a lot of prime space that used to be open to anyone.

I liked EAA when we were pretty much all Indians, and not when there are few chiefs who bought their status and all the rest are 2nd class.

I once was sponsored at a Canadian airshow by Players Cigarettes. Nice folks, even after I told them that I felt sort of funny since I didn't smoke. It was all catered food in the chalet, all free, they told me to help myself so I did. I think I ate 2 dozen fresh strawberries dipped in chocolate, and it was nice to be out of the sun.

At one of the ski areas in Aspen, the restaurant is split with one half being normal quick line like burgers. There is another side where you can sit down to table service and order really good food, at of course a higher price.
That is the way to do it, don't take something away from the average person, just make another level available to those who want and will pay for that extra.

[Kyle Boatright]

In my opinion, although EAA may have begun with homebuilding, even then it was more than just that. Paul had been a miitlary pilot and liked warbirds. Osh had Steve Whitman and his race planes. Acro was part of flying for many of the early EAA guys.It is just not going to be limited to one segment now.

Here's the point. EAA began as a homebuilt organization - the name itself says so. In today's world, EAA has significantly dropped its support for homebuilding - whether we're talking taking the prime display parking slots and erecting chalets, or whether we're talking putting a PC-12 in the magazine as a feature article. It isn't like the organization has just added additional segments outside homebuilding (few complain about antiques or warbirds), no, it has eliminated homebuilt content and replaced it with things that are seen as a stick in the eye by those of us who are passionate about homebuilding.

That's the problem.

An analogy would be if you went to a college football game and found they had reduced the game from 60 minutes to 20 minutes, but the marching band performed for 3 hours at halftime. You might not appreciate the change, even though you don't have anything against marching bands...

[Mike Berg]

I've been to almost every EAA in Oshkosh including the first. Easy for me as I only live about 200 miles west. Even flew in now and then depending on time and weather. Sometimes I stay for a long day or maybe 2-3 days. Granted the convention isn't now what it was in 1969 and sometimes you wonder what a certain vendor has to do with aviation but as more folks attend it cost more to put a 'show' on and you either raise the price of admission (much hollering) or have a set price to display a product (reduces the hollering about ticket prices).

I like to look at anything that flies although at age 73 I wondering how much longer I can keep hoofing it around. Seems there's something for everyone and I look forward to EAA Oshkosh every year. See you there!!

Mike Berg

[MEdwards]

... Like some of our other posters, I am somewhat put off by having a VIP chalet area, that is just sold to the high bidder, rather than a true ip like perhaps Bob Hoover. Maybe the EAA can profit so much that a few of these are worthwhile, but I hope it does not grow so much that it takes up a lot of prime space that used to be open to anyone.

I liked EAA when we were pretty much all Indians, and not when there are few chiefs who bought their status and all the rest are 2nd class. ...I've gone to Oshkosh about half the years since 1989. I've taken note many times that Oshkosh was the only big airshow I've been to that didn't have chalets for "the highest bidder," as Bill said. I liked that. Their absence was one of the things that defined Oshkosh for me. The "convention" seemed to be for the membership, not for the fat cats.

Surely there was pressure from some over the years to have chalets. There are plenty of people who could afford them and would like to watch the airshow from one. But our Association, under its former leadership, apparently (and no, I have no proof) resisted the pressure. The new leadership is different, and now we have chalets replacing some homebuilt parking. I do not like what the new leadership has done.

Mike E

[WingsAloft]

This is capitalism. This is freedom. EAA has never signed a contract with me saying they'll never change, or that they'll always stick to homebuilts. And they have changed. That's their right, and I respect it. However, since this is a (mostly) free country, and since there are seemingly so many disgruntled folks, I don't see why we can't just start another "EAA". And if we DID come up with another EAA, that doesn't mean we couldn't also still belong to EAA! (There is enough room in my wallet for two cards!) I value EAA. But I also understand some's frustration. So go and start another EAA.

[WingsAloft]

I understand all the frustration. I hate telling members of an organization to just grin and bear it. After all, doesn't EAA sell MEMBERSHIPS instead of "customer programs"? Meaning we have a say, right? Right? So I just thought of something else than the just-quit-if-you-don't-like-it approach: maybe we as experimenters should more actively recruit people into experimenting (I know you're thinking, Yeah, duh!, but please bear with me). These people don't have to be non-pilots. And I mean heavy-duty recruiting! Fly them to the mountains, beaches. Fly 'em everywhere interesting. Pull out all the chocks! And if they aren't pilots, then take them to nice FBOs and joke with them about the TSA. Praise and extol the virtues of experimentals! Then get 'em to sign up under EAA. In other words, change the demographics of EAA! Then EAA will change---for the better!

[rleffler]

I understand all the frustration. I hate telling members of an organization to just grin and bear it. After all, doesn't EAA sell MEMBERSHIPS instead of "customer programs"? Meaning we have a say, right? Right? So I just thought of something else than the just-quit-if-you-don't-like-it approach: maybe we as experimenters should more actively recruit people into experimenting (I know you're thinking, Yeah, duh!, but please bear with me). These people don't have to be non-pilots. And I mean heavy-duty recruiting! Fly them to the mountains, beaches. Fly 'em everywhere interesting. Pull out all the chocks! And if they aren't pilots, then take them to nice FBOs and joke with them about the TSA. Praise and extol the virtues of experimentals! Then get 'em to sign up under EAA. In other words, change the demographics of EAA! Then EAA will change---for the better!

You may be interested in reading this thread.........

bob


http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=87350

[RV8505]

You may be interested in reading this thread.........

bob


http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=87350


I often wonder how kit assemblers are viewed by prototype experimental aircraft fabricators/builders. Probably the same as assemblers view production aircraft owners. I read one post were a assembler wondered what they would do if Van's went out of bussines? It would not be a factor for a Aviation fabricator. I don't really like to read that web site as bad advice runs rampet. Clearly some do not read the FAA 4313. Bad sheetmetal job, "Put some putty in it". There are a few real execelent aircraft fabricators on there if you look around the site.

[steveinindy]

I often wonder how kit assemblers are viewed by prototype experimental aircraft fabricators/builders. Probably the same as assemblers view production aircraft owners. I read one post were a assemblers wondered what they would do if Van's went out of bussines? It would not be a factor for a Aviation fabricator. I don't really like to read that web site as bad advice runs rampet. Clearly some do not read the FAA 4313. Bad sheetmetal job. "Put some putty in it". There are a few real execelent aircraft fabricators on there if you look around the site.

Darn it Chuck, get out of my head. It's crowded enough in there without you climbing in and reading my mind.

[Dick Knapinski]

No, not a large part. 12-15 spots. And more than 75 spots are being added to homebuilt parking and camping this year because of demand in those areas.

[steveinindy]

No, not a large part. 12-15 spots. And more than 75 spots are being added to homebuilt parking and camping this year because of demand in those areas.

Thank you Dick. 75 spots? That's a nice little addition. I can't wait to be occupying two of them some day!

[Jeff Point]

No, not a large part. 12-15 spots. And more than 75 spots are being added to homebuilt parking and camping this year because of demand in those areas.

Dick, Chad, and anyone else who might know,

The flyer that started this thread shows the chalets as being removed from the flightline, more to the west, adjacent to Wittman road. I've just seen a photo of the area taken the other day, showing the concrete going in, and while it's difficult to tell from the picture, it looks to me like they are going to be right on the flightline, not back just east of Wittman road.

Can someone please clarify?

[Kyle Boatright]

No, not a large part. 12-15 spots. And more than 75 spots are being added to homebuilt parking and camping this year because of demand in those areas.

Were there any additions to the shower facilities in HBP and HBC?

[MEdwards]

No, not a large part. 12-15 spots. And more than 75 spots are being added to homebuilt parking and camping this year because of demand in those areas.


The flyer that started this thread shows the chalets as being removed from the flightline, more to the west, adjacent to Wittman road. I've just seen a photo of the area taken the other day, showing the concrete going in, and while it's difficult to tell from the picture, it looks to me like they are going to be right on the flightline, not back just east of Wittman road. Can someone please clarify?The picture in the flyer that Jeff refers to shows a rectangle that clearly does not extend all the way to the flightline. In other words, mere mortals will still be able to walk between the new facilities and the rope as they stroll through the homebuilt area. That is the way it was for last year's "mini-chalet" called the Aviator's Club, and was the main reason it was a fairly innocuous addition.

On the other hand, we all have access to Google Maps and Google Earth which, if you zoom in on KOSH, show a beautiful picture taken in the middle of AirVenture 2011. That same rectangle from the flyer covers an area occupied in the picture by 19 aircraft, not "about 12" and not 12-15 as represented by EAA Staff. If, in fact, the new chalets really go all the way to the rope, that's 15 more.

Now, of course, that rectangle is just an artist's representation and is no doubt approximate. I hope for the best, that we'll still be able to walk in front of the new chalets, and that the real number is 12-15, because I trust that EAA Staff would never stretch the facts, given that we, the membership, have the resources to accurately and critically audit their statements.

[Jeff Point]

Were there any additions to the shower facilities in HBP and HBC?Kyle,Just got up here today and took a drive around. There is indeed a second shower trailer next to the existing one. This is a good sign!

[Jeff Point]

Here is a picture taken Friday morning June 22, from the roof of the radio station building on the flightline, looking south towards the west ramp. The footprint of this thing is bigger than what is depicted on the flyer. Using last years google maps image as a reference, the footprint covers 21 parking spaces. It also covers the angle access road connecting Wittmann road to the flightline, which will have a big impact on vehicle and foot traffic in the area.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i456/jeffpoint/93bc5c1d.jpg

[RV8505]

http://eaaforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright http://eaaforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?p=17807#post17807)
Were there any additions to the shower facilities in HBP and HBC?



"Kyle,Just got up here today and took a drive around. There is indeed a second shower trailer next to the existing one. This is a good sign!"

As far as I know there isn't a shower fairy? Take a off the wall guess what could have possibly paid for it. I am not wild about the chalet either but the more you ask for the more real estate they have to rent out.

[Jeff Point]

As far as I know there isn't a shower fairy? Take a off the wall guess what could have possibly paid for it. I am not wild about the chalet either but the more you ask for the more real estate they have to rent out.



OK, I'll take a stab at it. In 2011, EAA grossed $35,040 from homebuilt camping, and their expenses were limited to the one shower house, a couple portapotties and the gas to cut the grass. This area has been underserved for the last few years, it more than pays for itself and I applaud EAA for finally stepping up and providing more showers.

[martymayes]

The footprint of this thing is bigger than what is depicted on the flyer. Using last years google maps image as a reference, the footprint covers 21 parking spaces. It also covers the angle access road connecting Wittmann road to the flightline, which will have a big impact on vehicle and foot traffic in the area.
Looks like a giant eyesore.

[Kyle Boatright]

Looks like a giant eyesore.

I really am surprised that the Chateau apparently blocks one of the paved taxiways, which is a good footpath through the area.

As to the additional showers in HBC, they are overdue. That whole area is a bit of a black hole as far as creature comforts go. The nearest camp store went away about 15 years ago (the space was taken by the warbird group), and there are no amenities other than porta-potties and trailer showers for a long way in any direction. That end of the campground (including the North 40) needs better access to a camp store and to some sort of quick-serve eatery, for at least doughnuts and coffee in the morning, hot-dogs at lunch, and something for dinner.

[Mike Switzer]

All this talk about showers... I have on occasion stayed in state camp grounds when I couldn't get a room, I have slept under the truck, and in the bed of the truck, used cold communal showers, etc., but I told myself a couple years ago if I ever go to Oshkosh I am "camping" in a 24' bumper hitch with popouts on both sides, a full bath, a kitchen, & AC.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

Kyle
From what I've been told--there will be a small store, and Kodiak Jacks is going to have food service in the north 40. HBC will just have to go a couple of blocks north down foundation road and enter the gate next to the new shower building--Kodiak Jacks and the store will be just west of the shower building.

Looking at Google earth map--the new Chalet is not on a taxi way--but on a spur of the access road.
--looks like it will probably do away with about 10 to 12 home built parking places.
Speaking of the Chalets--last year I had tickets to the Aviators club. Had lunch there everyday--I noticed something very interesting--a lot of older women were always in the building. On the friday of the show it was crowded--I ended up sitting at a table of these women---found out they were all widows. They had been coming to Oshkosh for years with their husbands and developed friendships with the other wives. After the death of their husbands--and not returning to the airshow for a few years .They found that they could still come to Oshkosh and see their old friends, visit--sit in a A/C building and have good food. Even though they were not pilots--they are part of what Oshkosh is all about--to me its about the people, the friends , and the bond I have with all pilots ( no matter what they fly)--
Looking forward to the 4 hour flight from western Oklahoma to Oshkosh in less than 30 days.
Kevin
PS-I do like looking at the planes :)

[steveinindy]

On the friday of the show it was crowded--I ended up sitting at a table of these women---found out they were all widows. They had been coming to Oshkosh for years with their husbands and developed friendships with the other wives. After the death of their husbands--and not returning to the airshow for a few years .They found that they could still come to Oshkosh and see their old friends, visit--sit in a A/C building and have good food. Even though they were not pilots--they are part of what Oshkosh is all about--to me its about the people, the friends , and the bond I have with all pilots ( no matter what they fly)--

Exactly. Some people will never be happy and they want to go about making everyone else just as miserable as they are. That's the only take away I've gotten from a lot of these bashing threads. Can't we just enjoy the fun that is Oshkosh and enjoy seeing our friends without the wailing, the gnashing of teeth and the tearing of clothes? If you don't like it, stay home or at least stay away from the chalets. More AC, new friends and often free food and drinks for those of us who want to be civil and welcoming.


PS-I do like looking at the planes

Same here, but the closer they are to the flight line, the less I want to go look at them because of the noise from the airshows.

[Kyle Boatright]

If you don't like it, stay home or at least stay away from the chalets.

So you continue to return to this thread because...?

[steveinindy]

So you continue to return to this thread because...?

You mean besides that it's kind of vaguely amusing to read all the conspiracy theories and watch otherwise intelligent and rational folks make mountains out of molehills? The handful of us who bother to still post here after the place became infested with some of the most pessimistic people on the Internet stick around solely to interject some alternate thoughts so that people new to the hobby who come across the forum and see threads like this one don't assume that we are all crabby, cranky and prone to assuming grand schemes are behind any slight change in business policy, HR posting or operations. You know explanations other than things like....that Rod is conspiring with Mac- who is really the head of the Priory of Scion- and the Illuminati to get rid of experimental aircraft at Oshkosh because you know that's where having an air conditioned building on the flight line automatically leads in any rational line of thought. Pardon me now as I have to go dislodge my tongue from my cheek.

[martymayes]

So you continue to return to this thread because...?

Because some folks feel compelled to post a reply to every message in every thread.

[WingsAloft]

You may be interested in reading this thread.........bob. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=87350 Thankyou, bob. That was very interesting, as well as informative. I am glad there are people out there who are thinking in that direction.

[Jeff Point]

So you continue to return to this thread because...?

Now Kyle, DFTT!

[BBARTONB]

I think we're more trade show,rather than fly-in get together.The old EAA was fun while it lasted.

[rawheels]

1998 was the year when it was changed from the "EAA Annual Convention and Fly-In" to "EAA AirVenture Oshkosh".

It is still a lot of fun!

[Kevin O'Halloran]

I think it more about

1--seeing old friends
2--learning new stuff in the seminars
3--trade shows/vendors
4--looking at airplanes ( if it flies --I look at it)
5-- airshow

Kevin