Marijuana and Pilots?

[Bill Greenwood]

I have a friend who has taken some flight lessons, and has some interest in being a pilot, has the money if they can find the time.

However, one big issue: due to a long time physical problem,. since a teenager, that causes pain and wakes him about every 3rd night, he has gotten a licence, (it's state legal) and uses medical marijuana. He is not sure if it is going to help him, he's only been using it a month or so. And his pain is not like the classic cancer case, it doesn't bother him in the daytime, only wakes him up often with body aches when he tries to sleep. He can work, but does take off some sick days when he can;t sleep.

So, 2 questions:
1. How long does it take for all mj to leave his system if he decides to quit using it?
2. What is the FAA position on previous mj use if and when he quits and decides to go on with pilot lessons?
Obviously one can't and shouldn't fly if under the influence at all, and the mj dispensary says not too drive within 6 hours of using. But you can get blotto drunk and recover and then lay off for a day or two and then be perfectly legal to fly, should mj, which is obviously less debilitating, be different?
I don't think there is any real good factual research on this, like a blood level of alcohol of say .05

[steveinindy]

I don't think there is any real good factual research on this, like a blood level of alcohol of say .05
Tons of it actually....go to www.pubmed.gov and type in 'marijuana, driving' and you get 428 hits (appropriately enough).

Here is pretty much what you're looking for with regards to the comparison to a BAC of 0.05.

Addiction. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22553980#) 2012 May 4. doi: 10.1111/j.1360-0443.2012.03928.x. [Epub ahead of print]
Medicinal THC (dronabinol) impairs on-the-road driving performance of occasional and heavycannabis users but is not detected in Standardized Field Sobriety Tests.Bosker WM (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Bosker%20WM%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Kuypers KP (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Kuypers%20KP%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Theunissen EL (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Theunissen%20EL%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Surinx A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Surinx%20A%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Blankespoor RJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Blankespoor%20RJ%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Skopp G (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Skopp%20G%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Jeffery WK (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Jeffery%20WK%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Walls HC (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Walls%20HC%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), van Leeuwen CJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=van%20Leeuwen%20CJ%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980), Ramaekers JG (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Ramaekers%20JG%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22553980).
SourceDept Neuropsychology and Psychopharmacology, Faculty Psychology and Neuroscience, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

AbstractAIMS:The acute and chronic effects of dronabinol (medicinal tetrahydrocannabinol) on actual driving performance and the Standard Field Sobriety Test (SFST) were assessed. It was hypothesized that occasional users would be impaired on these tests and that heavy users would show less impairment due to tolerance.
DESIGN, SETTING AND PARTICIPANTS:Double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized, 3-way cross-over study. Twelve occasional and twelve heavy cannabis users (14 males/ 10 females) received single doses of placebo, 10 and 20 mg dronabinol.
MEASUREMENTS:Standard deviation of lateral position (SDLP; i.e. weaving) is the primary measure of road tracking control. Time to speed adaptation (TSA) is the primary reaction time measure in the car-following test. Percentage of impaired individuals on the SFST and subjective high on a visual analogue scale were secondary measures.
FINDINGS:Superiority tests showed that SDLP (p=0.008) and TSA (p=0.011) increased after dronabinol in occasional users. Equivalence tests demonstrated that dronabinol-induced increments in SDLP, were bigger than impairment associated with BAC of 0.5 mg/mL in occasional and heavy users, although the magnitude of driving impairment was generally less in heavy users. The SFST did not discriminate between conditions. Levels of subjective high were comparable in occasional and heavy users.
CONCLUSIONS:Dronabinol (medicinal tetrahydrocannabinol) impairs driving performance in occasional and heavy users in a dose-dependent way, but to a lesser degree in heavy users possibly due to tolerance. The Standard Field Sobriety Test is not sensitive to clinically relevant drivingimpairment caused by oral tetrahydrocannabinol.

[steveinindy]

1. How long does it take for all mj to leave his system if he decides to quit using it?

It stays in detectable levels for a week or two from what I understand. It's a fat soluble molecule so it is "stored" in adipose tissue. It is also detectable in hair (and fingernails) for a much longer period of time.

[FlyingRon]

Notwithstanding the drugs, it would behoove him to investigate the underlying condition that he is taking the drug for is not in itself disqualifying.

Use of illegal drugs in the previous two years is also disqualifying I believe (they at least they ask for it). Marijuana even with a medical card is still ILLEGAL as far as the feds are concerned.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, my friend simply has aches and pain simiilar to arthritus, that wakes him up and distrub sleep, nothing that in any way interferes with driving or would interfere with flying. He has already flown, no problem there, but only dual. If this pain was for a day or even a week it would be a minor thing, but over a long period of time gets to be a problem. If he sleeps ok, then he is fine at work or in outdoor active things.

[FlyingRon]

The FAA is a little sensitive on sleep issues these days. If he mentions he has pain that keeps him from sleeping, he's may be opening himself up for other hoops like the MWT testing.

[Bill Greenwood]

Steve, my question is really about how the FAA handles this issue. I think with more and more people living longer and more using mj to counteract cancer and some other ills, and it being legal in Cal. and Col. for two, that this issue will become even more active.

I am NOT primarily asking about mj research, don't want to get into a debate on this. I do note your study from the dutch.
I have previously looked up many "studies" about mj use, medical benefits, impairment, and driving. Most were not worth the paper written on. First for decades the Federal govt, the DEA etc. prohibited any real study in the U S of mj . They said that it was a bad drug, therefore it was too bad to allow any unbiased source like a top university to study it. And if you really want to know about the validity of any study, find out who is really paying for the study.
Otherewise, Sort of about as convincing as a Bernie Madoff auditors report on your investments.
Also, the little bit of mj research that is done is almost always not on mj itself, but on some synthetic thc.
I just saw one on Denver tv, and they had drivers perform before and then give more thc and do blood tests and perform again. A very poor study, they had only a few drivers, I think 4 or 5, and did not have a factual, unbiased performance standard like measured stopping distance. Instead they had a local cop, who was hardly unbiased watch and give his evaluation of their driving. For what it is worth, they showed some impairment in 4 drivers, not in 1, and none of it like alcohol.

[Eric Page]

Bill, is your friend a member of AOPA? If so, or if he's willing to join, their medical services staff might be able to give him some answers.

1-800-872-2672 -or- medicalassist@aopa.org


Another option is a company called Aviation Medicine Advisory Service. I don't have any personal experience with them, but my union (ALPA) contracts with them to provide services for its members. It appears they offer service to individuals for $39.95.

http://aviationmedicine.com/

[Bill Greenwood]

Thanks Eric, I am of course an AOPA member as all pilots ought to be, think it is a bargain for $45 or so, including the magazine.
I called and they were not absolutely sure about the FAA and M J , except they were pretty negative on it, as the Fed position is that it is still illegal, no matter if you are in the terminal stages of cancer, or what state law is.
The feds have a lot invested in the anti drug war, lot's of people making their living for decades off that.
And the feds often move slowly, the FAA is the same folks who tell passengers that a cell phone is going to affect an airliner flight safety, and do it with a straight face.
The lady said she thought that a pilot would need to wait 90 days after they ceased using M J and even then the FAA might want the applicant to go to another doctor, a type of addiction specialist, to get certified that the person had cured their "addiction".
So their attitude that using M J for medical purposes is an "addiction" is pretty far behind the times. Guess it is just fine to be addicted to tobacco and be legal and fly until lung cancer intervenes or addicted to alcohol as long as you space out the binges and not when flying.
I have a feeling my friend is not going to continue the M J as their problem doesn't seem to be one that it helps that much, and its more of a sleep thing, than just pain.
I am not sure if he will ever pursue the flying route, anyway just was thinking about this. I have another friend who has major cancer and major pain from it.

[Frank Giger]

It stays in detectable levels for a week or two from what I understand. It's a fat soluble molecule so it is "stored" in adipose tissue. It is also detectable in hair (and fingernails) for a much longer period of time.

Depends on the level of testing.

30 days for a military grade test is required for clean results.

[FlyingRon]

The FAA asks about drug use in the past two years. I can't tell you to lie on your application and frankly if they find out subsequently that you did, you can lose any certificates you've gained to date.

[weiskopf20@gmail.com]

no expertise here - just some thoughts.Go sport pilot. No medical questions. Self certify. BUT have the doctor who wrote the prescription state in writinghow long he should be off the weed before driving. Follow that plus maybe a safety factor for flying. We all know the answer if you ask the feds. IN THE LOGBOOK, BEFORE EACH FLIGHT MAKE AN ENTRY STATING THAT AMOUNT OF TIME OFF THE MJ. I don't think that this is needed, but it would add to the defense. Once again - just an opinion. CONSULT an aviation atourney.

[Bill Greenwood]

Thanks, and Ron, nothing to "lie" about. The person is not now a pilot or taking lessons, and not imminent to do so. I do know if they do start they will want to go all the way for private pilot, won't be satisfied to fly just LSA types.
As for the MJ use, after a month or so, they say it is not a magic cure all for sleep problems; but may helps some. I know they only use it for going to sleep, not just for fun. And they don't drive after using it, the mj shop says not to drive for 6 hours.
As for me , I 'd rather fly and need to be fully fit for that. Mostly I sleep ok. Now if I was 80 and had a terminal condition that mj could help, that might be another issue.

[danielfindling]

I would definitely have your friend consult an aviation lawyer in your jurisdiction. A couple of thoughts (not to be confused with legal advice). First, there is a conflict between state and federal law on the issue of Marijuana and the jury is still out. Many states, including my home state of Michigan have medical marijuana statutes. In fact, in Michigan, medical marijuana usage is authorized in the state constitution. However, there are several attacks on the law inasmuch as it runs afoul of Federal law. Notwithstanding state sovereignty, federal preemption is alive and well - (As an aside, in Michigan, it is conservative judges that are trying to overturn the "liberal" marijuana law by invoking Federal preemption - and ignoring state sovereignty - go figure - however, I can blow off real fireworks this year and choose not to wear a helmet on a motorcycle thanks to our republican governor - oh, and I like him!)

It is conceivable that an admission of past marijuana usage is akin to violating federal law without regard to the state law. Therefore, I would avoid the admission in its entirety while being honest in the application.

In my practice of law, courts often utilize "hair follicle" testing when testing for marijuana. The hair follicle test can show positive usage of marijuana for 6 months. Fluid testing (blood, urine etc.) is a much shorter period of time. For cocaine, the drug apparently metabolizes so quickly to render fluid testing essentially useless after a few days.

In sum, I would avoid the disclosure of marijuana use without lying. Look at the application and ask yourself if all questions can be answered honestly without disclosure of marijuana use. If not, discretion is advised. Finally, do not rely on my post as legal advice, it's not.

Hope this helps.

Daniel Findling

[FlyingRon]

First, there is a conflict between state and federal law on the issue of Marijuana
There maybe a conflict, but the FAA considers it illegal and it is the FAA that will rule on your suitability for a medical certificate. Medical marijuana is no more legitimate for pilots than prozac or any number of other substances that might be legal in certain circumstances.

The safe answer is to abstain from FEDERALLY ILLEGAL drugs for three years prior to applying for a medical.

[OrvilleJohnson]

Depends on the level of testing.

30 days for a military grade test is required for clean results.

Yeah. I agree with you.