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View Full Version : What was good and bad about OSH2011...



slin
08-01-2011, 02:08 PM
We - myself, my wife, and our kids aged 5 and 7 - had another great time this year, camping as we usually do in the North 40, from Wednesday through Sunday. I recall after last year's event, reading a thread talking about what people liked and didn't about the way the show went, and I learned a lot from that thread about how things are run behind the scenes, which helped my perspective of the issues a lot, so I thought I would post something similar this year. Hopefully others can add their own experiences as well.

First, the "good":


The volunteers and even most other show attendees were EXTREMELY friendly and helpful this year. We came in right after the big storm Wednesday morning and got stuck in the mud taxiing to a camping spot in the N40. Many people, both official volunteers and just other attendees, came to help me dig in the mud to get my wheel pants off, some other volunteers drove up with ramps, and we got my plane unstuck within an hour or so.
My daughter came running around the tent and ran right into the elevator, giving herself a gash and big welt just over her eye. Again, the volunteers were great with getting a cold pack and even giving us a ride direct to the first aid center, where she was seen by a doctor, immediately, for free. Wish my own doctor's office would be so quick and friendly. Many other examples this year. Maybe just not having another "Sloshkosh" put people in a good mood, but it was just great this year.
We just had a great time, and are already looking forward to next year. Oshkosh really is a highlight of our summer and I just want to emphasize how much we love it, so that my suggestions below can be taken in the right context - as things that just might be tweaked to help improve what is already a great experience.

Now, the "bad" - or perhaps the "could be improved":


Still would like more clarity on hours of operation of dining, trams, museum, etc. Some of this information is available in various places such as some versions of the maps (but not all!), the official guide, a paper "Dining Guide" available at some of the food concessions. But other information, like museum hours, seemed not available - we just happened to see a posted sign saying the museum closed at 3pm on Thursday, for example. And what's up with the "Pre/Post Tram Busing"? I guess buses take over the tram routes after the trams stop - but is this on all days? All tram lines? What hours? Similarly, I heard that the north 40 bus runs until midnight from some people, the map said it runs until 11:30, and a driver told me it runs later when the Fly-In Theater runs late. (We left before the end of Apollo 13 so that we would be sure to be able to catch a N40 bus since we were parked past the Hilton and didn't want to walk that far with the kids).

The gist of this paragraph is simply: Could we have ONE location, preferably online, where we could see it before the show while planning our trip, that lists the hours of: all trams, all buses, each food concession, museum, exhibit hangars, etc.? That would be so helpful!
We noticed a lot more people than usual around the North 40 who weren't camping there. Normally it's not a huge deal but this time there were many people who were not quite suspicious enough to report or confront but just suspicious-looking enough to have us worried about the security of the campsite. There were tents set up in the middle of nowhere, without an airplane to be seen, people milling around, etc.
A related problem was the LARGE number of people parking/camping outside the N40 gates but who used the shower houses and buses. For example, after Sat night's airshow, there were probably 300 people waiting for a North 40 bus. When we finally got on a bus (standing room only), all but 5 people - literally, not exaggerating - got off at the Hardee's or Friar Tuck's gate and walked out. I'm sure some were campers who wanted a late night snack/drink but the vast majority of people were obviously just parked outside the gates and using the North 40 transportation to get to their vehicles and avoid the parking fee.

I don't want to be snobbish or exclusive, but I do wonder if there is some way to slightly clamp down on who can be coming and going through the campsites?
Tram rules. Need some consistency here. Because we have two young ones, we do use the trams quite a bit. Once we missed our stop on the yellow tram (I thought there was one more stop and was wrong), and when we got to the end of the line in Vintage, the tram volunteer said we had to get off - we couldn't stay on to ride back the other way. Okay, no problem; we got off and waited in line again. But the next several trams that came had different volunteers who did NOT force everyone off. So it took a while to get back on. I don't mind that we had to get off (it was my fault we missed the stop after all), but if that's the rule, then please enforce it across the board. And if that's not the rule, then don't enforce it!
Similarly, when the trams were crowded, we had some volunteers asking people to put kids on laps to make more room - no problem, we were happy to do so. Later in the week, on another crowded tram, we put the kids on our laps to help make room but this time, we were told that kids could not be on laps. Of course, there were no more seats by then, so we had to get off the tram just because we were trying to be helpful by putting the kids on our laps. Again, consistency would help here.
Finally, we had a hard time leaving Sunday morning. I realize it's a busy time, and I'm very happy to wait my turn. But we waited between 45 minutes to an hour in a line of over 30 planes (I could count 30, there may have been more) heading toward rwy 27 from the N40. At the head of the line, whenever planes would taxi from the FBO ramp, they got priority and went ahead of the line. ATC would typically launch 5-6 planes from the south side of 27, during which time perhaps 4 or 5 planes would start up at Basler/Orion and taxi up. When ATC got around to the north side of 27, those 4-5 planes which just started up would be flagged into place by the EAA flag person, and the 30 planes waiting on the grass taxiway would not move.

I saw another post about this or a similar issue, but contrary to that poster, what I saw didn't correspond to "high dollar" planes getting priority. I saw several "normal" singles and twins (Cessnas, Mooneys, etc.) start up at the FBO and just taxi straight out. I also saw one C210 who got fed up with the line and taxi from perhaps 10 spots behind me, through the grass, to the FBO ramp - then since he looked like he was coming from the FBO, the EAA flagman waved him ahead of the line, so he got to skip ahead by seeing what was happening. In the meantime, my oil temp was over 210 by the time I got to depart.

IMHO, this was not due to malicious intent on the part of the flagman or anything else. I like to think he was just clueless that there was a line of 30+ airplanes waiting to go, but I'm not really sure what the problem was. Maybe they have instructions to keep the FBO ramp clear for incoming aircraft or something, so they always get priority?

Along the same lines - in the past, ATC would put two departures next to each other (left half, right half of the runway). This year they were not doing that; not sure if that reduced departure capacity, or what the reasoning was for that - does anyone know?

Again, I apologize for the long post, but it is obvious (to me at least) that EAA and all the volunteers do a great job with the event, and I really am posting these minor frustrations in the spirit of trying to help identify some possible places where a few tweaks might go a long way to making things even better than they already are!!

Thanks for taking the time to read this book! :)

Steve Lin

Paul Chandler
08-01-2011, 02:57 PM
One thing that could be improved is the provision of hand washing facilities at all the portaloos, especially those near food stands. These hand wash facilites need to be checked more frequently as often there was no water and / or paper towels. This was very obvious on the Saturday when people are on the grounds a lot longer than a 'normal' day.

hkyplr18
08-01-2011, 06:11 PM
"The Bad"
My biggest complaint were the number of vehicles on the grounds. I was almost hit multiple times by either an suv, car, or golf carts. I understand that vehicles need to be used, but it seemed like everyone and their dog had a golf cart this year! Some vehicles you can tell are official and needed and some you can tell are just plain joyriders not wanting to walk or use the tram like everyone else. I did not realize how easy it was for someone to have a vehicle on the osh grounds.

I would also like to see people be more considerate on the use of the tram. I missed 2 trams while standing in line because a huge group of people would jump off of the yellow tram and load on the wrong side of the red tram cutting in front of a lot of people who were already waiting in line! The EAA volunteer riding on the back never said a word both times.

The food vendor lines seemed much longer and slower than previous years. We waited in line over 30min for a bottle of water. The whole time we waited I thought how nice it would be for mutiple "drink only" stations spread throughout the grounds. I am not sure why that isn't being done. Makes a whole lot of sense I think?? Also, does anyone from EAA know why they never opened the consession stand at the ultralight field? There was only 1 place half way close to our campsite in VAC row 101 to eat or get a drink, but it was always extremely busy and backed up with people with the normal 15-30min wait.

Last complaint:
Why do the people that fly their own airplane into oshkosh and park in vintage/showplane camping get the shaft on shower and bathroom facilities? We saw the brand new awesome facilities that the RV campers get and the fairly new showers up in the N40 but down south we get stuck with 1 FEMA trailer? Seriously? We can't even get 2 FEMA trailers? Our port-a-pottys were always out of TP and serviced maybe once the 5 days I attended. A poor pregnant lady went into one and came out in tears.

"The Good"

As always most of the volunteers were extremely nice and helpful especially the folks at point magoo (I think it is?) down south.

ATC was great coming in and leaving

Great line up of presenters and forums.

The airshow was better than the last 2 years. Still to much of the extra 300 types flying over and over, but better than last year.

I like that the volunteers were not so grumpy about the fire line when watching the airshow like previous years. Seemed to me anyway..

And of course we had better weather than last year!!

Bill Greenwood
08-01-2011, 07:18 PM
Slin, if you see my topic about Parking Problems from back on Tue; I and many others had exactly the same problem as you did when trying to fly out from the north 40 parking. A volunteer, "Fred" wrote his explanation, ie "safety" and it is for rwy 9 departure. Obviously most of what he wrote is, to put it politely, not true, and just the company line.
Someone, "Janet" came on and did not refute anything I wrote, but only seem to oppose that I had the right to any concerns.
The idea that departures should be in some fair manner like first come, first served doesn't seem available there, perhaps next year you can come back in a jet or at least a twin, and you'll go right to the head of the line.

NAA551WB
08-01-2011, 08:00 PM
The goods:

- The people, everyone was as friendly as can be.
- Variety of aircraft
- Warbirds in review
- Airshow performers

The Bad:
- Food prices, $4.50 for a little hot dog? Are you serious?
- Water spickets, I'm not going to shell out over 2.50 for a bottle of water, not having more water spickets in a way is kind of cruel. Buy our water or else and with the way the heat was the or else part could have dire consequences
- My biggest gripe at all is the umbrellas on the flightline. Enough is enough, during the storm on Saturday I saw more than one umbrella flying through the air. If I owned an airplane with a fabric covering I would be paranoid. Not only is there the risk for the airplanes but for those of us that are 3 rows back it is very hard to see what is going on on the runways. Some people almost had umbrellas the size of a patio set umbrella.

RBaptist
08-01-2011, 09:26 PM
The Good:
It's Airventure! :) Can't be bad!
- Liked the upgrades to Camp Scholler,
- Liked the Iphone App to help get around and know what is going on,
- Liked the forum speakers this year!

Opportunities:
-Use 'trams' (the ones with the pull behind carts with seats - like the ones used INSIDE the fence) to get around Camp Scholler instead of buses. Takes too long to load/unload buses and would help with some of the traffic. PLUS you could probably get more folks on the trams AND it is easier for folks with kids and strollers.
- Better Wi-Fi signal - it works but man is it spotty and slow on the grounds. KUDOS on having Wi-fi though! It helps folks stay in touch and read up on what is going on! Not complaining...just a suggestion :)
-Not sure how to do this without a TON of cost, but Camp Scholler needs better drainage. This has been highlighted the past two years. When it rains it gets REALLY sloppy out there. It may take semi-paved roads to fix, but one can only dream. We had one car spin out in front of our tent. The guy spun his tires and flung mud on and in everyone's tents. Not pretty.

John
08-02-2011, 12:01 AM
Tram complaints should be forwarded to the tram chairman. If you go to the airventure.org web page, one of the drop-down menues has a volunteer link, and from there, you should find the Phone # and email of the tram chairman. My experience was fine, even with the rain on Wednesday. The trams SHOULD be emptied at the end of the line, and they SHOULD enforce no-cutting or no-entry-from-other-side.

The water spigots are there, but they are hard to find.
The high food prices are pretty much expected with the "captive" audience, but come on, water should be free and easy to find.

South 40 facilities. It's my understanding that They can't really build facilites there for a few reasons, such as plumbing, and proximity to the main runway. That's the rumour I've heard anyway.

Wifi-lets be realistic. Several thousand people are using it. It's going to be slow, and poor connections at peak times. I imagine they might be able to put in more servers and increase bandwidth, but it's going to cost money.

N40 "extra people". Did they have wristbands? They should have, to be able to get past the gate from the N40 to the grounds. You don't need a wristband on the N40 itself. If they had wristbands, then I don't see a problem, technically. yes, it's a pain for people who are camping in the N40 to wait for a bus. So unless the local business' complain about the parking, not much you can do but ask the powers that be about this.

If "shifty" or "suspicous" people were grounds for ejection, 1/2 the pilots would be tossed out by the N40 volunteers. :D

Hours need to be consistant, and posted in easy to find locations, that's for sure!

I've address the umbrellas, and carts, in other topics.

Incidently, there are people from the campgrounds right outside the EAA grounds who trespass to use the portapotties and showers in camp scholler too.

cptomes
08-02-2011, 06:45 AM
At about noon Sunday I was riding my bicycle on Shaick back to my
campsite, with my 10 year old daughter on her own bicycle. We were
riding at about 12mph (faster than 10, slower than 15, not sure exact
speed). We were on the edge of the pavement, with more than one cars
width of dirt to our right, and oncoming traffic heading for the
airshow grounds, about at the EAA clearance merchandise sales
building.

A Gator with two young men passed us on the right, with a speed
difference so great they had to have been going over 30mph, probably
faster.

A few seconds later another Gator passed us on the left, at about
the same speed, crossing the center of the pavement, with oncoming
traffic.

I kind of expect stupid behavior from the young campers. I was
furious that all three were wearing blue EAA Staff shirts. I rode to
the security shack at the end of Shaick and talked with the two people
there, who tried to get a manager type on the radio, and no one replied.

I was hesitant to let my daughter ride her own bicycle this year in
Scholler, precisely because of behavior like this. In previous years
we used a tandem trailer-bicycle, attached to mine. This year she was
solo.

Next year, if I see EAA staff driving like this, I will tell my
daughter to park her bicycle wherever she is and I will chase the
idiots down and not stop making noise until they are ejected from
Airventure, or I am ejected. I seriously doubt I would be the one
going home early. The security guard I talked to was just about as
furious as I was, she said they had been telling both staff and
campers to slow down all week.

I think a policy of ejecting the entire campsite registering to a
cart/gator/motorcycle/scooter (anything with a motor) with well
documented violations of policy (for instance, if multiple EAA
security staff AND other campers all step forward as witnesses) is
appropriate. When I roadraced motorcycles, it was made clear in the
rider's meeting that any egregious violation of campsite policy by any
person in that campsite would get the racer and all their guests
ejected, with no appeal, at the discretion of the Race Director. I
understand Airventure is a lot bigger than an amateur roadrace, but
that that just means it's MORE important that everyone behaves.
Currently, there seems to be no consequences for this kind of moving
violation.

I saw golf carts on sidewalks multiple times, many scooters, gators
and golf carts driven by obviously underage riders, rampant speeding
by all kinds of vehicles. Someone is going to get killed in Scholler
because of this if you don't do something about it.

A counterpoint to all this was that while I saw no one policing moving
vehicles, I was accosted by a security person when I was locking my
bicycle up. I guess a stationary bicycle in a drainage ditch well off
any driven/walked path is a hazard, while idiots zooming around is
just tolerated.

Charles Tomes
EAA 780854

Shoppy
08-02-2011, 07:37 AM
The only bad experience that I <strong><u>ever</u></strong> had in 15+ years at OSH happened on Friday at the Childrens Activity Center. My 3 year old and 1+ year were playing at one of the play tables and my 1+ year old moved a play hangar from one side of the table to the other side of the table, not on the floor, not to another table,but the other side of the table. One of the staff (Carroll?) came over, moved the plastic hangar back to the original spot and demanded to know who said that my little guy could come in and play. She said that we needed to leave because he was too small to be there and she will have to talk to the people who said it was OK for him to enter. Now I understand if he was making a mess moving things to other tables or throwing things but he was doing what a kids do; PLAYING. My wife and I take pride in how our children act in public and make sure
that they do not run wild, make messes for others to clean up, or cause
problems. I really feel that if you can not comprehend that a child is going to move toys around a table in a PLAY AREA you have no business being in charge of the kids play area and you need to find some other place to volunteer. As we were leaving we had a short conversation with another parent who saw what happened and shared our thoughts on the matter. <br><br>I suppose there will always be one bad apple but the crappy attitude and crass comments are a big disappointment to me. This is not what this place is about and not a good way to promote the future of aviation and EAA. I hope that others who might have come to OSH for the first time did not have similar experiences and instead experience all the great friendly volunteers that make OSH such a great place to be.<br><br>To the other staff members at the Childrens Activity Center and everyone else Thanks for all that you do!!!!!

Cattflight
08-02-2011, 09:50 AM
OK, so maybe a stupid question, but does anyone know why they host Airventure during the hottest, most humid part of the entire year?? I know it is probably more family-firendly to do it during summer break but, man, was it moist!

steveinindy
08-02-2011, 09:54 AM
Because there are basically three seasons in Wisconsin: Summer (Late June-August), "Bearable" (maybe two-three weeks on either side of summer) and a winter that will remind one of the innermost circle of Dante's description of hell.

Dave Stadt
08-02-2011, 10:47 AM
When people complained about the heat and humidity I reminded them that in a short six months a bunch of us will be flying into Pioneer on skis. I don't think it got above 0 during the fly-in last January.

BeagleOne
08-02-2011, 12:24 PM
The overall atmosphere is wonderful. I've been coming to Oshkosh since 1970 and enjoy just walking around taking it all in. Most of the volunteers were very friendly and helpful, although some of them knew less about the grounds and event than I did. I loved seeing FiFi again after her 16-year absence. It was fantastic to see Bob Hoover, Jim Lovell, and Gene Cernan. The Honor Flight landing should be an official part of the airshow, and the veterans should de-plane at airshow center like they did this year, but make it an official event instead of doing it while the wall of fire is blowing up in the background.

The trams and the air-conditioned trailer toilets were great ideas, and I'm glad they seem to be permanent improvements, and the food options improve every year. As always it was a great week. But of course there's always room for additional improvements.

Most of the "security" people I saw were high-school-aged kids. They seemed to do little more than roar around in golf carts. Who's going to take them seriously as security people? And what's with all of the traffic anyway?

There were FAR too many unattended items on the flight line. The flight line volunteers are incredibly strict about sticking so much as a toe over the line; where were they with all of the unattended stuff? Those items should be confiscated immediately since they are a hazard to aviation; not to mention it's just rude to stake out a spot hours in advance and then go away.

SMOKING NEEDS TO BE BANNED THROUGHOUT THE GROUNDS. I saw more people smoking this year than I have ever seen in the past at Oshkosh, including one moron smoking right on the flight line. Of course there was no flight line volunteer to be seen, and since the guy in question was big, loud, and obnoxious, and surrounded by several friends, I didn't feel comfortable saying anything to him. If people want/need to smoke, they need to step outside the grounds.

There should be a tram stop by the Fly Market. Move the yellow tram route so it goes around the west side of the D exhibit building and have a stop right at the SW corner, at the entrance to the Fly Market.

I would like to see a caffeine-free, sugar-free soda option. Diet Sierra Mist or diet root beer or something like that. The water trailers were a good idea but the plastic cups were not; a lot of people just dropped them instead of putting them in the trash and they were blowing all over the place. Put drinking fountain attachments on all of the water trailers and skip the cups. A lot of people carry their own water bottles anyway and they can refill from the fountains.

There were several stands with "soft serve ice cream only" lines. I'd like to see some "drinks only" lines as well.

I love the Fly-In Theater but I don't love how they don't start any part of the program until dark. The presenters could start earlier, when it's dark enough to see them on the screen but maybe not dark enough to start the film. Last year we had to watch an interminable film about the Horsemen P-51 team before the movie; at least this year they put it after the movie so those of us who just wanted to watch the feature film didn't have to wait so long. Robert Hays was hilarious and having the cardboard Otto the Autopilot "co-present" was a nice touch.

"Airplane!" should be shown every year. :)

On Sunday the speakers were taken down as far as old highway 26 by the Hangar Cafe, before the airshow started. So the people sitting at the picnic tables at the Hangar Cafe couldn't hear the commentary. They should have left that speaker up until the end of the airshow.

I love the museum but when they have someone like Dick Rutan speaking I wonder if it wouldn't be better to do that in the Eagle Hangar or the Vette Theater or even a forum pavilion. Having him stand in the middle of the museum meant that a lot of people were walking by and talking when he was speaking, and it was sometimes hard to hear him.

I'd like to see more "vintage-look EAA" items for sale. They made a nice start this year with a few options with the old logo...I'd like to see that expand.

AND BRING BACK THE EISENHOWER JACKETS!!!!

Vin Rampey
08-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Fantastic overview by Steve, thanks for posting, couldn't have said it better and agree with all of his points - very well stated! Agree the variety of the afternoon airshow was the best I've seen - so nice to have some variety in the performances. The night airshow was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen! Airventure just keeps getting better and better - can't wait until next year!

Really want to echo comments about the need for a tram and bus schedule - especially the Pre/Post tram buses and the N40 campground bus. The North 40 campground bus stopped at 10PM Monday and Tuesday evenings, then ran until 11PM on Wednesday/Thursday, then midnight on Friday/Saturday. Then caught us totally off gaurd when it stopped cold at 5:00PM on Sunday. I had stopped by the N40 registration booth Sunday morning to make sure the bus would run that evening as we didn't leave our campsite until Monday morning. Three workers at the booth confirmed that the bus would run Sunday night until 10PM but it did not.

Can't wait until 2012!

Kamic
08-03-2011, 08:55 AM
I had an amazingly great time this year, the night airshow goes down as one of the best airshows I've ever witnessed! The forums I attended were great, the traffic in and out was flawless! Everyone was friendly and happy! Overall, I'd say it was the best year I've had at airventure!

My response to the tram & bus schedules: I say EAA reduces the tram and bus schedule to save some money or at least do some advertising to encourage people to walk to their destinations....

FlyingRon
08-03-2011, 10:10 AM
I agree. There seems to be a general smoking regression. There was much more smoking on the flight line than I ever recall seeing in 20 Oshkoshs.
As to the original posters issue with the North 40, a major problem with traffic is that blasted gate by the Hilton which has always been a problem even back before the Hilton was there.
It's one of the only after hours vehicle access points to the grounds which makes the North40 road a thoroughfare all night long.
I do take issue with him thinking that the North 40 bus is somehow the property of the GAP/GAC people. No more so than us down in Vintage keeping you off the blue trams/south40 bus.

John
08-03-2011, 10:34 AM
Smoking: Yes, there was more this year! I even had to tell a few people in the N40 camping to stop smoking. There were a couple of yahoo's who were smoking cigars and went back to it after I left (I could see them). I told both of my chairpeople , but both were like "meh". grrr.

FlyingRon
08-03-2011, 10:52 AM
Perhaps the "meh" reaction is that smoking in campsites is not against the rules.

Bob Meder
08-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Because there are basically three seasons in Wisconsin: Summer (Late June-August), "Bearable" (maybe two-three weeks on either side of summer) and a winter that will remind one of the innermost circle of Dante's description of hell.As I posted on another web site: every year, I can't wait to get to Oshkosh. Then I'm glad to be there. 'Round about Friday, I wonder what I was thinking. As soon as I get home on Sunday or Monday, I can't wait to go back...

At least the mosquitoes that are big enough to have tail numbers didn't seem to be out in force this year.

FlyingRon
08-03-2011, 11:58 AM
I purchased my airplane in Wisconsin in February. I found the place so depressing I wondered if they had to put prozac in the water supply (though it might explain the proliferation of bars all over the place).
They appear to have four seasons, three of which are called winter.

slin
08-03-2011, 12:00 PM
My response to the tram & bus schedules: I say EAA reduces the tram and bus schedule to save some money or at least do some advertising to encourage people to walk to their destinations....

That's not a bad idea, but even if the schedule is reduced, it should be published somewhere and then actually followed. I certainly could use the exercise but my kids are pretty little and there are also many elderly folks at the show - it can be a challenge for either the young or the old to walk from, say, the ultralight area (where we usually tried to eat dinner and watch the ultralights & powered parachutes) back to near the Hilton where we were camped. Again, if the schedules are published somewhere, we could at least choose not to do that when we know the kids will be too tired to walk that far, and if we know there will be no bus or tram, for example.


As to the original posters issue with the North 40, a major problem with traffic is that blasted gate by the Hilton which has always been a problem even back before the Hilton was there.
It's one of the only after hours vehicle access points to the grounds which makes the North40 road a thoroughfare all night long.
I do take issue with him thinking that the North 40 bus is somehow the property of the GAP/GAC people. No more so than us down in Vintage keeping you off the blue trams/south40 bus.

As the original poster, I don't recall saying that I thought the N40 bus was the property of the GAP/GAC folks. I know lots of non GAP/GAC people who use the bus all week to go to the Hilton or up to the Weeks hangar or whatever, and that's great - as you said, we (GAC) certainly use the S40 bus from time to time. As I tried - perhaps unsuccessfully - to illustrate in my original post, there were two specific issues I had:

1) People walking in the gates from outside and wandering around, looking at tents, etc. (Looking at planes is great - looking in tents is less great.) Also, people setting up tents without airplanes or even camping registrations - not that I think everyone has to fly in to the show, of course, but it is a little weird to see some guy just walk up and pitch a tent in an open area without a plane in the airplane camping area, ya know?

2) People using the N40 bus as a shuttle to free car parking. As I mentioned, after the Sat night airshow, there were literally hundreds of people waiting for the N40 bus - each bus holds almost 100 people when you count people standing in the aisle, and there were 3 or 4 buses before we got to the head of the line, with at least another couple of buses worth of people behind us. And again, on the bus we got on, of the 100 or so people on board, exactly 5 of us did not get off at the pedestrian gates leading out.

Again, I am not saying that we (GAC) somehow "own" this bus. I'm just saying that it's inappropriate for hundreds of people to be using it to bypass where they are supposed to be parking, and that I was concerned (this year, for the first time) about some of the people walking into the campsite from off the grounds.

On the flip side, when I went back to read my original post, I see that I complained a lot more than I complimented when in reality the things I complained about were very minor annoyances in an otherwise wonderful few days, so here are some more of the "good" things this year, aside from what I mentioned originally:

- Night time airshow and fireworks were really really great. I know for my kids, it was the highlight of the week, and I thought it was pretty cool too!

- Facilities are getting better each year (or maybe I am just discovering new flush toilets around the grounds, etc.) The sealed roads and additional flush toilets were great.

- Fly-In Theater: This was the first year we went to a show (George Lucas/"Red Tails" and Apollo 13) and it was much better than I had anticipated. Even free popcorn!

- Weather was great, for the most part. I know some were complaining about the heat but mid-80s felt pretty nice after the triple-digit temps much of the country has been suffering this summer.

- Bugs were better than in years past, too.

- I thought there was a good mix of programs, from the Rutan & Hoover tributes to seeing the 787, etc.

- Spending time walking around admiring the homebuilts and vintage planes is always a great way to spend a morning or evening.

Steve Lin

FlyingRon
08-03-2011, 02:58 PM
Don't know how the N40 handles it, but Vintage security does very much patrol around looking for unpaid tents. It's been a significant problem in the past. You can still walk up with your EAA card and invent an N-number and buy a camping spot and pitch it under a tree somewhere, but at least they're paid.

Bob Meder
08-03-2011, 07:32 PM
Good:

Seeing a bunch of young people at KidVenture. We ran through about 700+ workbooks in Young Eagles Flight Education. What was really heartening was seeing some repeat "customers" from previous years. There was one young man on the sims that had logbook entries dating back 3 years.

What made me feel really good was that a lot of folks responded when we asked for help when the FAA couldn't be there to participate due to the funding issues. We had some big holes in the schedule that some great people helped fill.

Better announcements of potential severe weather. Having been caught in Hangar D at Lakeland this past spring, that has particular relevance for me. Still concerned about sheltering, though.

Bad:

Cell phone issues documented elsewhere, both courtesy and connectivity issues. At least I didn't hear that stupid NexTel chirp this year.

Empty seats on golf carts. Not for me, since I really need to walk more, but I think that if you have a cart and see someone who could benefit from a ride, asking them if they would like one would be nice. I saw too many seniors passed by folks in carts.

Sunday. There's probably nothing we can do about it, but it always feels like the circus leaving town.

PaulDow
08-04-2011, 08:07 AM
One bad thing I encountered was someone who came in for the day. He brought his father, and his two kids. Paid non-member price. They came to see the world's only flying Helldiver that was on the event's publicity poster, the program, the advertisements, etc. His father flew that type of plane in the war. Unfortunately, by Saturday that plane had left. He saw my semi-official looking EAA tag, and let me know that he was very dissatisfied that the plane that was publicized so much was gone. They walked right back out.

I realize that plane is privately owned, but that one appeared on so much publicity material, arrangements should have been made to keep it around until the end.

Jason Alexander
08-04-2011, 03:10 PM
Good:
- AirVenture was, once again, the highlight of my year!
- The opportunity to volunteer and experience the airshow like few others was, as always, incredible!
- The Tributes to Burt Rutan and Bob Hoover were great!
- Getting to see friends I only get to see in Oshkosh is always a highlight!
- Operation Thirst. Nuff Said. lol

Needs Improvement:
- I griped about it in another thread, but the amount of litter this year was more than I've ever seen at AV, despite plentiful dumpsters.
- Food was overpriced. My friends and I either ate from Operation Thirst (not an option for normal attendees) or went off the grounds for food during the week.
- The OSHALERT on my cellphone was very behind on weather alerts. I had another service to text me severe warnings and on two occasions I received a Severe Thunderstorm warning within a minute of when it was issued from the one source, while I received it from OSHALERT 10 minutes later one time and over 15 minutes later the other time. That bothers me because people who relied only on OSHALERT may not have had time to secure their aircraft (granted, they should have already, but anywho...), close their tents, or seek sufficient shelter. I guess that's just the meteorologist in me getting annoyed with that. *shrug*

I can't really complain about the WiFi because I was always in areas where it was the most used. Of course it's going to be difficult to connect to and slow. I just used my Verizon wireless internet instead and was perfectly happy!

All in all, AirVenture was amazing this year, as it always is! My worst day in Oshkosh trumps my best day at my day job!

Kyle Boatright
08-04-2011, 03:22 PM
What's right with Oshkosh? Almost everything.

What can be improved?

- Still too many powered vehicles in the "restricted" areas during the day.
- Cell coverage is poor. However, I understand that adding infrastructure for a one week event isn't a big priority for ATT & Verizon.
- Need a camp store in the North 40/Warbird/Homebuilt area. It is a real hike from there to the Red Barn. There used to be a store in that area but the warbirds took the space.
- Need more quick options for a drink and/or snack around the campus. All the lines move glacially slow.
- Lots of people had problems getting fuel this year. I had to make a stop on the way home because Basler (or whoever) didn't make it by my plane in the day and a half I had a fuel tag rubber-banded to the prop (this was in HBC).
- Anchor the porta potties - I'd have hated to be in one of the many that blew over in Saturday's storm.

All in all a very well managed event, but it can always be improved.

FlyingRon
08-04-2011, 04:06 PM
- Still too many powered vehicles in the "restricted" areas during the day.

Agreed... it was enforced well but there were way too many passes issued this year (it seems way up since they established the "Cart Path / Restricted Zone" a few years back).
I know Honda and HAI and those guys paid big money for those big VIP booths on the flight line, but does that mean they get free reign to drive cars and golf cars everywhere in the
restricted area. There must have been 30 cars with red stripe passes next to the Honda booth.



- Need more quick options for a drink and/or snack around the campus. All the lines move glacially slow.

I actually saw improvement here. There were a lot of new Zaug's shacks where you could get an ice cream or soda or hotdog. Most had pretty small lines (even when the traditional places were busy).


- Lots of people had problems getting fuel this year. I had to make a stop on the way home because Basler (or whoever) didn't make it by my plane in the day and a half I had a fuel tag rubber-banded to the prop (this was in HBC).

Part of this was the rain. They stopped driving the trucks on the grass for the wetter days because it ruts up the place badly for aircraft taxi. We had to relocate a few planes to where the hose would reach from a hard surface to get them fueled.


- Anchor the porta potties - I'd have hated to be in one of the many that blew over in Saturday's storm.

I think if you were in it, it would have not blown over. They're pretty light when empty. The biggest suckage with the port a potties is that the frequency of them being serviced was way down and EUUUEEEUEUUEUEUE they didn't even load up the ones in Vintage with the blue juice until the show started so those who were camping in their early had some pretty stinky and otherwise unsanitary conditions to deal with.

flybill7
08-04-2011, 05:11 PM
First let me say I love AirVenture. There are so much that is great about it -- but I'm just going to offer some suggestions for improvements:

-- I'd like to build on a suggestion to bring back The Parade of Homebuilts. Either during each day's airshow or before, maybe have one of each kind of homebuilt fly around the pattern a few time with the annoucer talking about each type. For common types like RVs, maybe have a lotto for who gets to fly the RV for that day, with a different plane/pilot each day.

-- Warbirds. I know this will be controversial as many think there is too much emphasis on Warbirds already. But I -- a homebuilder -- love to see the Warbirds fly, especially WWI, WWII, & Korea. I've seen them all on static displays in museums, but the great thing about AirVenture is that you see them fly. That said, there are many Warbirds at Oshkosh but don't fly. For example. this year the following planes were there but didn't fly (at least not while I was there Wed & Thu): P-38, B-29, P-40, Grumman Duck, F4U Corsair, Zero, FW-190, Dauntless, Avenger, Bearcat (flew briefly in heritage flt). I think that one of each type that is airworthy should fly in a Warbird parade -- every day. EAA should pay the owners expenses for it. Some company sponsored the airshow for the entire week - money shouldn't be a problem. Same for the current Navy warbirds like the P-3, T-45, T-6B, Helos -- why not have them fly around the patch as well?

-- Special Days. When they have a special event like Navy Day on Wednesday, AirVenture should make every effort to get all the airworthy Warbirds they can for the occasion. Yes, they had a Bearcat, Wildcat, Tigercat, Duck, HellDiver, Avenger, Dauntless, and FJ4 Fury. But no F6F Hellcat, AD1 Skyraider, PBY-Catalina? I know these are still flying around. What about some of the prewar stuff like the F3F?

-- Special Days 2: On the Burt Rutan day, it would have been nice to see an example of all his designs fly around the pattern, not just the Starship and Boomerang.

-- WWI replicas. Where are all the homebuilt WWI planes? Last year they had the DR-1 Triplane, DR-7 and DR-8 from Colorado, but nothing this year. Many homebuilders have built WWI replica's -- why are they not at AirVenture? I know they are not the easiest planes to go cross-country in, but maybe AirVenture could make it worth their while.

-- Famous planes. I've never seen a Spirt of St. Louis replica fly -- that's something that ought to be done yearly at AirVenture. They just finished building a Bleriott replica -- it would have been nice to see it fly. How about one of the early Wright Flyers? My hat is off to Bob Cooledge for building and flying the 1911 Curtiss Pusher to AirVenture -- and flying it there.

-- Team RV flying in the airshow at least 3 times.
-- The last two times I've been to the EAA Museum they they have had the Eagles section closed off setting up for a dinner.

-- And yes, more showers in the HBC area! World peace too.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Bill C.
RV-7 Builder & Flyer

FlyingRon
08-04-2011, 05:32 PM
They had a homebuilt showcase this year. I watched it being staged at the end of 36. I think they could definitely do it more than one day (perhaps alternating with a vintage showcase which I'm not sure they've done in YEARS).

Paying *ANYBODY* to fly is a slippery slope.

Kyle Boatright
08-04-2011, 05:51 PM
I, also, would like to have homebuilt and antique showcases several times during the week. I suspect the issue is that those probably don't do much to boost attendance. I think the EAA has figured out that the airplane crowd will come to Oshkosh anyway, so <within limits> whatever they do won't change attendance or income from that segment. On the other hand, flame spewing trucks, pyro, warbirds, extreme aerobatic acts, and current military hardware all pull in the non-aviation crowd. So Airventure (and SnF too) load up on those acts to generate revinue from the general public.

flybill7
08-04-2011, 06:15 PM
Paying *ANYBODY* to fly is a slippery slope.

Don't they pay the airshow performers like Sean Tucker, Gary Ward, Julie Clark, etc? The costs of operating the warbirds these days must be astronomical; I'm afraid their attendance and flying will dwindle away to nothing in the years to come.

Bill Greenwood
08-04-2011, 06:31 PM
I think EAA says that no one is paid to fly, as far as money. Some performers do get free cars and passes and may also get free hotel rooms.
Warbirds get reimbursed for the fuel used when flying in the show, nothing for the trip in or out.
I don't think anyone should be paid, let's have some event that is not just for money.
Money has pretty much ruined college sports, etc.

John
08-04-2011, 08:06 PM
Come to think of it, I don't think there is any "camping unit sticker" check in the N40. I wasn't paying that kind of attention, so didn't notice any "stand alone" tents w/no planes.
How do they enforce it in vintage? What if someone refuses to leave?

Smoking: Is not the N40 considered part of the flight line? BTW, the fuel truck was servicing the plane next to the cigar smokers! The back end of the truck was about even with their chairs, and they don't see anything wrong with that??

NAA551WB
08-04-2011, 08:14 PM
I worked line service for the past 4 1/2 years and I would have been very upset if I had seen someone smoking cigars like that.

One thing I want to say is that I wish that if you want to be on the flightline you have to be a member. I think that would kill a lot of the problems with people changing diapers on wings and the smoking on the flightline. I hardly saw any of the Protect our planes people if any at all. I know it will never go back to members only on the flightline but one can hope.

N404CX
08-04-2011, 08:19 PM
I don't belong to FaceBook and don't intend to.
Can I see the pix without joining?

Glen Wilcox

Adam Smith
08-04-2011, 09:42 PM
Glen, you should be able to view all the EAA galleries on Facebook without joining.

Fareed Guyot
08-04-2011, 09:46 PM
Recently EAA has started posting all of its photo galleries exclusively on Facebook. However they are posted as "public" which means you do not have to be a member of Facebook to view them.

Not all pictures posted on the page are from EAA Facebook administrators, they are posted by other Facebook users. It may be those users photos that ask you to join or login when you click on them because their Facebook security settings may be more restrictive that pictures posted on the page as "From EAA".

FlyingRon
08-05-2011, 05:42 AM
Don't they pay the airshow performers like Sean Tucker, Gary Ward, Julie Clark, etc? The costs of operating the warbirds these days must be astronomical; I'm afraid their attendance and flying will dwindle away to nothing in the years to come.

To my knowledge, no. For example, the civilian Sea Harrier last year (which I can GUARANTEE you cost more to operate than any classic warbird there) was paid through the owner's own money and sponsorships. He was griping he didn't even get a car pass to get close to the aircraft.

John
08-05-2011, 10:16 AM
As you may know, it used to be that way, having to be a member to get a flightline pass. The public would be behind the fence.
I think however, this may be a problem of trying to put the genie back in the bottle.
I have always felt the poppies have been pretty ineffective. I worked ONE shift with them, years ago, just so I could say I've been in their shoes, and give me the right to criticize. :)


I worked line service for the past 4 1/2 years and I would have been very upset if I had seen someone smoking cigars like that.

One thing I want to say is that I wish that if you want to be on the flightline you have to be a member. I think that would kill a lot of the problems with people changing diapers on wings and the smoking on the flightline. I hardly saw any of the Protect our planes people if any at all. I know it will never go back to members only on the flightline but one can hope.

steveinindy
08-05-2011, 12:16 PM
At least the mosquitoes that are big enough to have tail numbers didn't seem to be out in force this year.

It was funny when the LSA craze started in earnest, the first thing I heard about it was a discussion about how much was going to be displayed at Oshkosh that year regarding them. The thought that went through my head was "As if the mosquitos aren't annoying enough, now they are going to have large displays dedicated to them!" :P

Antique Tower
08-19-2011, 10:38 AM
Sorry guys - I'm late to this new forum so forgive me for resurrecting an old thread. But I have to respond:


The only bad experience that I <strong><u>ever</u></strong> had in 15+ years at OSH happened on Friday at the Childrens Activity Center. My 3 year old and 1+ year were playing at one of the play tables and my 1+ year old moved a play hangar from one side of the table to the other side of the table, not on the floor, not to another table,but the other side of the table. One of the staff (Carroll?) came over, moved the plastic hangar back to the original spot and demanded to know who said that my little guy could come in and play. She said that we needed to leave because he was too small to be there and she will have to talk to the people who said it was OK for him to enter. Now I understand if he was making a mess moving things to other tables or throwing things but he was doing what a kids do; PLAYING. My wife and I take pride in how our children act in public and make sure
that they do not run wild, make messes for others to clean up, or cause
problems. I really feel that if you can not comprehend that a child is going to move toys around a table in a PLAY AREA you have no business being in charge of the kids play area and you need to find some other place to volunteer. As we were leaving we had a short conversation with another parent who saw what happened and shared our thoughts on the matter. <br><br>I suppose there will always be one bad apple but the crappy attitude and crass comments are a big disappointment to me. This is not what this place is about and not a good way to promote the future of aviation and EAA. I hope that others who might have come to OSH for the first time did not have similar experiences and instead experience all the great friendly volunteers that make OSH such a great place to be.<br><br>To the other staff members at the Childrens Activity Center and everyone else Thanks for all that you do!!!!!


This is almost EXACTLY the experience my wife and I had about ten years ago, the first time we brought a preschooler to Oshkosh. I literally could not believe how rude these people were to us, how nasty they were to my son. And I have heard similar stories from other parents. I have no idea how these people are allowed to continue year after year - definitely the worst experience we have had at Airventure.

On the flip side, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the Kiddie Cockpit play area that is put on by Vintage, behind the Vintage Red Barn. And of course, Kidventure is the very best thing about Oshkosh. It is amazing and is run by some dedicated, loving people who are true teachers.

Sorry for your bad experience. You are not alone.

MEdwards
08-19-2011, 12:05 PM
I have always felt the poppies [Protect Our Planes] have been pretty ineffective.
POP duty has to be a pretty thankless job. So, Thanks to those who sign up to do it. I only saw one all week, who very nicely reminded me to stow my folding chair before leaving the campsite for the day. I appreciated his message and the way he delivered it.

MEdwards
08-19-2011, 12:41 PM
Only one complaint, and it's about parking in Vintage.

Arrived Saturday before the show and was directed to park in the next available row, in the first slot next to the road. There were already two planes in the same row in the two slots next to the runway. When queried (nicely, respectfully, and with sincere expressions of appreciation for their service!) the volunteers said the unnamed powers that be had directed them to park planes west to east in each row. They said the two parked next to the runway were there illegally and would hear about it from the management.

Of course parking is by row, and where you park in the row is luck of the draw, but it seems to me spaces near the runway are preferable to those next to the road (and we were next to a tram stop to boot, so there was huge traffic within 10 feet of the plane all week), so it seems they should park east to west to give preference to earlier arrivals. I can see that might slow up parking a few seconds if several planes arrived for the same row at the same time, but things were never that frenzied that I observed.

There was one additional "feature" of our parking location: We were right under a webcam, so the folks back home could watch our every move. That could be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending!

I and my visiting friend from Australia (who came over specifically to go to Oshkosh) had a great time at AirVenture Oshkosh 2011.

Mike E

Antique Tower
08-19-2011, 12:50 PM
Mike you touched on a controversial subject this year. I park planes for Vintage, and yes this situation occurred to a few folks.

In years past, the only aircraft parked on the east end out of turn were twins, as they are too wide to bring down a normal aisle, especially if they leave early.

I assure you it will be addressed next year.

Also, if you see a better spot open up during the week you can move. Just grab the nearest vintage volunteer.

TMann
08-19-2011, 09:14 PM
I was glad to see the Navy display. My dad flew the Helldiver off of the USS Bunker Hill in WWII.
This is the first time I've been able to see one up close (much less flying.)

I thought the cancelled Canard fly-over was a bust. They seem to have tried to reschedule it for Friday but it doesn't do much good if you don't know about it.

The Rutan celebration was a big reason I made the trip.

s51flyer
08-20-2011, 09:13 AM
Point of reference:
Camped the entire week in Camp Scholler - 22nd thru 30th,

Good: :thumbsup:
- Being able to totally immerse oneself in anything aviation for a week. Beats the best day at the office or golf course.
- The variety of aircraft, vendors, exhibitors, etc., etc. all in one place - very efficient way of covering a lot of ground if one needs to.
- Friday airshow was AWESOME. My 13 year old son and I were right on the Flight line with the B29 coming straight at us for the Wall of Fire. The whole front row said "Whoa" when you felt the heat from 300 yds away. So cool!
- Enjoyed REO. It was great to just to get off our feet and hear some good music. Great weather, etc..

Opportunities: :(
- WiFi access, speed needs to be improved throughout Camp Scholler. I've seen other posts that don't think WiFi access is a big issue. I disagree. I've exchanged email with John Carrier too. He's got a tough logistical problem. That said, if you are going to publish information about Airventure on the web (schedules, forum attendence planning, Airventure feedback columns, etc.) and hope people are going to be able to access it, some improvement needs to be made. WiFi is no longer "complimentary". Any big business conference ensures WiFi access to participants. I had issues accessing WiFi from Monday afternoon thru Saturday. I either couldn't get on or the signal was so weak it was not useable. I understand the cost and logistical issues for a one week event. However, that can be said for anything related to Airventure. Maybe I just need to get a 3G iPAD, and this has just been good practice for convincing my wife.
- MUD! I hope EAA continues to improve the road network and drainage in the Camp Ground. It was pretty much a mess all week. We love camping at EAA, and we love the shower facilities. We've been camping for the past 10+ years. Keep up the great work!
- SLOW DOWN THE CAMP SCHOLLER VEHICLE TRAFFIC. Speed bumps, stop signs, anything to slow the speed of traffic. I'd hate to wait 'til someone gets seriously injured to see a significant change made. Speed limit signs seems to be suggestions vs. enforced. If folks can be cited for drunk driving on EAA grounds, then maybe they need to be cited for speeding too. :eek:
- GET KIDS LESS THAN THE LEGAL DRIVING AGE OFF MOTORIZED VEHICLES. Again, seems this rule is just a suggestion. BTW, I got stopped for not having a Camp Scholler Bike tag on my Bike, yet kids are driving motorized vehicles all over the place, sometimes while illegally carrying 2 or 3 hangers on. Hmmm... :confused:


Keep up the great work! Love the event, and love it more 'cuz it's only <90 minutes away.

Aegidius
08-20-2011, 10:00 AM
I was impressed by the Android app I downloaded that had the map and daily forums in it. I don't know if it was EAA or Sportys that sponsored the app but it was very helpful to keep that vs carrying a paper map with me all day. It could be so much more though. Keep the smartphone apps and info coming!

Jeff Point
08-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Mike,I can't address your concerns specifically, as I don't volunteer in A/C, but I do handle parking in the homebuilt area so I can address your general concern. The problem is, not everyone has the same idea of what a "good" parking spot is. You want to be next to the runway. Someone else might not want to be there, and would rather have your spot. For example, someone with a plane for sale and wanted max visibility, or someone who didn't want their planes next to the flight line with the airshow crowds banging into their plane.

As they say, there's no pleasing everyone. As was mentioned, if you see a better spot open up and would like to move, just ask a volunteer. We aim to please (but not everyone ;)

flyingriki
08-20-2011, 06:15 PM
If EAA pays any attention to this thread:
$3 water in those conditions is ridiculous. Not all of us are "used" to it...and $18 - $24 a day for, other than hose, water, please!
$4.50 for a mini-hot dog equates to $1 a bite - are you kidding? It isn't even a fancy hot dog.
A zillion motorized vehicles zipping around an equal number of pedestrians, whose idea was that?
The VERY, or almost, worst facilities are provided for the group of people that built the organization - HBC.......go figure.

Hey new guy, Mr. P. created a fabulous organization. Pobi Jr. grew an airshow/fly-in.
What are you going to do?

PS: the Android App was never updated so the forum listings were 50/50 accurate.

mazdaP5
08-20-2011, 08:55 PM
The good:
Variety of rare warbirds this year, from the Dauntless, to the Helldiver, to the FW 190, zero, lots of rare birds I've never seen fly before.
All of the commemorative Navy birds, interesting and cool.
Great attitude of any volunteer I came across, very inviting.
Food options are getting better all the time.
Jerry's one man band. I've seen him a million times, can see him a million more.

The Bad:
Vehicle traffic in pedestrian areas. I remember when I was a kid, the only vehicle traffic on convention grounds were chopped bugs. Now you always seem to be in the way of somebody too important to walk. Some of them drive way too fast also. It's about the paying guests and members, not the vip's.
Closing the Eagle Hangar for the week. I want to see the 1/72nd scale Enterprise. I want to see the oldest Mustang. I have access to the museum, I want to see the whole museum. I don't get the opportunity to go Oshkosh but once a year, I'd like to make the most of it.
The mud was a p.i.t.a, but thats the weathers fault, so I'm not that upset about it.
The programs said tune to a.m. whatever station for Airventure info and such, but I could never get it to tune in, even in camp sholler.

All in all, a great experience, but the vehicle overcrowding has been a real big issue for me the last few years, and really does take away from the experience. It's Oshkosh, I shouldn't be annoyed all the time.

hkyplr18
08-21-2011, 06:36 PM
Does anybody from EAA actually read these compaints? I would love to hear some sort of response to this thread from an actual EAA higher up. I, along with everyone else here pay our dues. How about a response for your members.....?? Especially something about how EAA plans to deal with motorized traffic on the grounds next year. Something has to be done before someone gets run over or hurt.

Kevin O'Halloran
08-22-2011, 09:20 AM
The B2OSH group ( over 300 people and lots of kids) have a couple of vans ( we pay for them) with passes to the north 40----we have them parked during the day--and NEVER go into the restricted area--I agree--too many kids are driving golf carts in the restricted area ( hell--at my age --anyone under 30 is a kid <g>--)
Kevin
BTW--those vans are always full--if there are empty seats, we pick up anyone walking--old people first,,then people with small kids, etc--if your a ugly cessna pilot, your probably out of luck <g>

Steve Buss
08-22-2011, 01:36 PM
Hello hkyplr18,

Yes, we do read these boards and respond when appropriate. The items in this thread, along with other feedback we receive, is compiled and reviewed for future action. It is part of our formal de-brief and we are currently in the middle of the process.

I don't know what steps will be taken to address the vehicle situation, but I can tell you it is a comment that is seen frequently. When we do have changes or a plan in place, we will do our best to get the word out to everyone.

Steve

TMann
08-22-2011, 04:26 PM
Zack Baughman, you put a good face on EAA and represent them well.

You stopped and offered me a ride in from the Museum the Friday of Airventure. (My feet thank you.)

I'll get that recording of the radio interview my dad did when he got back from the Pacific (Helldiver pilot on the USS Bunker Hill.)
It will be great for your 'Timeless Voices' project.

hkyplr18
08-22-2011, 05:24 PM
Steve thanks for the reply. I wanted to make sure that someone from EAA actually does hear the good and the bad. It might be good to have someone from EAA poke their nose in here every once in a while just so we know someone hears us! Thanks
Jordan

Bill Greenwood
08-22-2011, 09:10 PM
I am very glad that the public is welcome at EAA Airventure and that it is not just limited to members. It is a great event, and having more people there must be a good recruiting tool.
I have brought a number of display planes over the years and have had almost no trouble with anyone seeing or walking near them. The only real problem I ever had was a CAP teenager who wanted to refuse to let me into my own plane. I just calmly got in, started up and taxied out. It wasn't the place and wasn't needed to get mad or use any loud argument.
This year, noteworthy in how rare it was, I did meet two rude "officials", one security guy and one volunteer in a orange or red vest on a scooter or small cycle. These were in GAP parking on the north side of rwy 9-27.
Far outnumbered by the many nice folks at EAA over the years.
As for the guy in the Harrier, well the best thing you can say about him is that his plane is neat. I waited about 10 minutes last year for him to finish talking to the media guy; wanted to ask him about his plane; never got a chance as he walked right past me to do some more PR.

Jim Hann
08-23-2011, 04:30 AM
Finally, we had a hard time leaving Sunday morning. I realize it's a busy time, and I'm very happy to wait my turn. But we waited between 45 minutes to an hour in a line of over 30 planes (I could count 30, there may have been more) heading toward rwy 27 from the N40. At the head of the line, whenever planes would taxi from the FBO ramp, they got priority and went ahead of the line. ATC would typically launch 5-6 planes from the south side of 27, during which time perhaps 4 or 5 planes would start up at Basler/Orion and taxi up. When ATC got around to the north side of 27, those 4-5 planes which just started up would be flagged into place by the EAA flag person, and the 30 planes waiting on the grass taxiway would not move.

I saw another post about this or a similar issue, but contrary to that poster, what I saw didn't correspond to "high dollar" planes getting priority. I saw several "normal" singles and twins (Cessnas, Mooneys, etc.) start up at the FBO and just taxi straight out. I also saw one C210 who got fed up with the line and taxi from perhaps 10 spots behind me, through the grass, to the FBO ramp - then since he looked like he was coming from the FBO, the EAA flagman waved him ahead of the line, so he got to skip ahead by seeing what was happening. In the meantime, my oil temp was over 210 by the time I got to depart.

IMHO, this was not due to malicious intent on the part of the flagman or anything else. I like to think he was just clueless that there was a line of 30+ airplanes waiting to go, but I'm not really sure what the problem was. Maybe they have instructions to keep the FBO ramp clear for incoming aircraft or something, so they always get priority?

Along the same lines - in the past, ATC would put two departures next to each other (left half, right half of the runway). This year they were not doing that; not sure if that reduced departure capacity, or what the reasoning was for that - does anyone know?Thanks for taking the time to read this book! :)

Steve Lin
Steve,

I can address this because Sunday from 0930ish until the airshow I was one of three volunteers manning the A/B intersection North of the 27 departure area. First handicap that day, a C-130 was parked on Bravo over towards the terminal which limited our "escape" routes for traffic. That forced the second issue we had, Alpha going up to the FBOs needed to handle two way traffic more than usual, and we couldn't do that with most of what came down that taxiway. Much of the traffic we had to send down towards the FBOs were the IFR departures that normally go down Bravo but couldn't. The grass taxiway next to Bravo is two way from just west of Alpha which helps. The worst possible bottle neck was when a jet would come inbound someone was sitting on Alpha north of Bravo, if they had to stop in the intersection, it stopped everything. It happened more than once in my 4 1/2 hours out there that day. We could easily see the line of aircraft waiting to depart on the North side, unfortunately for them (and you) it is easier to keep that line where it was than possibly gum up the entire works trying to balance the departures. When we were able, we sequenced the departures to get as many folks from the Bravo line out and off and let folks wait, usually by pulling them off to the east side of the A/B intersection.

The controllers work at the quickest pace that they are comfortable with. We had one spell where we couldn't get the airplanes to the runway fast enough when a veteran OSH/AV controller had the departures running FULL THROTTLE! Two at a time on the runway, when one launched the next was already being put in position behind it. It would have made an ATL or ORD controller blush! Some of the newer or less experienced folks can't work at that pace, that is fine, we don't want accidents. They are also coordinating with all of the other activity going on, remember inbounds and outbounds are on different freqs and the controllers don't get to listen to the other one, they have to go with what they are told. Standing there listening to both freqs I sometimes think I knew better what was happening at the moment, but not what would happen in the next minute or two. Which is better???

Hands down, Sunday before the airshow (also the final volunteer shift of the show at FLO) was my busiest shift the entire week of volunteering. Was it perfect, HECK NO! Could we do better, ALWAYS! Did any metal get bent or aircraft disabled? Not that I know of! I think we did okay running that area for two retirees (a husband and wife) and a furloughed airline pilot :-)

BTW, if you ever want to know more, the FLO building is located near the intersection of 13/27 and is surrounded by the Warbirds area, also feel free to come on out and volunteer!

Jim

Craig Johnson
08-23-2011, 11:51 PM
I hope this is an appropriate forum to mention a concern I have about the 'Lifetime Dinner' on Tuesday evening. Though various members and guests were recognized (standing and ovations), at no time were 'homebuilders' (those 'experimental aircraft' people) recognized. Twice now I've had people around me comment about this, and I was wondering if perhaps a few seconds of the evening could be dedicated to the people engaged in/with experimental aircraft (e.g. builders?). Thanks, Craig

Hal Bryan
08-24-2011, 07:11 AM
Hi Craig - thanks for the feedback. I'll pass that along this morning.

docnzok
08-24-2011, 07:26 AM
There seem to be some main themes that are culminating in this thread. And they all seem to be really evident over the last 2 or three years. Not before.
1. Parking and getting in and out (planes and cars) is getting worse.
2. The amount of vehicles and the carelessness of their drivers and passengers on the grounds during the show is increasing
3. The number of people waiting is getting bigger.
4. The costs are getting higher
5. Suspicious hagglers/ stragglers / people seem to be around a lot of areas.

I posted a while back that getting into the place by car has exponentially gotten worse and the logistics of the whole thing seem to have taken a hit. I never had (or read) any of these concerns prior to 2009 but since then, it seems something has changed. Having cars backup down rt43 for 3 miles and charging 4.50 for a bottle of water makes it harder to justify the 4 hour trip that I make every year.

I hope things get better.

Hal Bryan
08-24-2011, 07:33 AM
We have a large-scale AirVenture debriefing coming up next week - I'll bring a copy of this thread and make sure that all of the concerns are heard, I can promise you that. I can't speak to all of them, but I can say that nobody will be griping louder than me about the vehicle traffic backup problems - I had to leave the grounds one afternoon and run home. My (normally) 12 minute return trip took nearly 90, so I'll be beating that drum from personal experience.

MNWORD
08-24-2011, 09:14 AM
Hal, Just wondering if minutes are kept on these debriefs and if so will they publish them for members to review, I have a thread on the mud issues in Camp Schollar and I will be curious on the discussion reference that issue.
Thanks

Bob Meder
08-24-2011, 12:07 PM
Hal - one thought might be to change the access at the intersection of South Koeller St./Knapp Street Rd. and West South Park Ave. We used to be able to access Poberezny Road to the museum at that light, but was blocked off this year. This took a lot of people by surprise (including some semi's that had to make a u-turn). I think I can understand why the city/county wanted to limit that path, considering all of the traffic coming from US41 at that light. However, allowing vehicles with parking passes to go that way might relieve some of the congestion on South Park as well as on the 41 interchange. There would have to be signage to make this work, of course.

Just a thought.

Hal Bryan
08-24-2011, 04:10 PM
Hal, Just wondering if minutes are kept on these debriefs and if so will they publish them for members to review, I have a thread on the mud issues in Camp Schollar and I will be curious on the discussion reference that issue.
Thanks

Minutes are most definitely kept - we've already generated pages and pages of notes from each department, and this larger meeting will be the first step, starting to encapsulate those and build up action plans over the coming months. I don't know that we've ever specifically published anything out of these, and that's a call that would come from above my pay grade, frankly.

But I can tell you that when we all get in the room and start talking about what went well and what needs improvement, there won't be any surprises. Except maybe the fact that we're our own harshest critics...:)

Hal Bryan
08-24-2011, 04:12 PM
Hal - one thought might be to change the access at the intersection of South Koeller St./Knapp Street Rd. and West South Park Ave. We used to be able to access Poberezny Road to the museum at that light, but was blocked off this year. This took a lot of people by surprise (including some semi's that had to make a u-turn). I think I can understand why the city/county wanted to limit that path, considering all of the traffic coming from US41 at that light. However, allowing vehicles with parking passes to go that way might relieve some of the congestion on South Park as well as on the 41 interchange. There would have to be signage to make this work, of course.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the well-reasoned feedback, Bob - some interesting ideas. I'll put these in front of the site / operations folks.

Thanks!

Hal

BrianS
08-25-2011, 01:47 PM
I hope this is an appropriate forum to mention a concern I have about the 'Lifetime Dinner' on Tuesday evening. Though various members and guests were recognized (standing and ovations), at no time were 'homebuilders' (those 'experimental aircraft' people) recognized. Twice now I've had people around me comment about this, and I was wondering if perhaps a few seconds of the evening could be dedicated to the people engaged in/with experimental aircraft (e.g. builders?). Thanks, Craig

I wouldn't want to see it go that way. I appreciate the brief mentions of "members" and the like. But what kind of griping are you asking for by highlighting "homebuilders?" What of the guy who restored a classic? What of the U/Ls, the IAC competitors.

I get the homebuilt heritage of EAA - but it's a big organization with lots of nooks and crannies. A/C, U/L, IAC, Warbirds...these aren't "second-class" members. They're EAA members - just like you and me.

If you want to honor the homebuilders, then maybe you ought to have a Homebuilders dinner. Oh wait...they already do that.

http://www.airventure.org/attractions/homebuilders.html

NAA551WB
08-25-2011, 08:48 PM
Pretty harsh post Brian, lol. Wow.

Cary
08-25-2011, 09:39 PM
The good:
*I love Airventure so much that as long as I can fly, I'll fly in. When "they" take that privilege away from me some day, I'll drive in--that covers most things, but a couple of specifics:
*The food from the vendors has improved a lot over the years, and the prices are OK--you should buy a hot dog at a Colorado Rockies game some time!
*The volunteers are as always great--friendly, helpful, etc.

The not so good:
*Vehicular traffic in pedestrian areas--way too many golf carts, etc., driven way too fast by way too young drivers.
*Inadequate cleaning of porta potties early in the week in Vintage--improved greatly as the week went on.

The "really needs improvement":
*Marshallers bringing aircraft in must recognize what prop wash will do to existing camps. Twice my camp was badly blown because the marshaller waived an aircraft in and turned it, blowing over my chair, table, etc. If airplanes can be towed out, they can be towed in. Existing camps must be respected. In both cases, it was very young marshallers--probably neither was a pilot anyway--but in any event each needed better training since their judgment was a little deficient.
*Marshallers should be absolutely mandatory in all aircraft parking/camping areas to assist getting out as well as in. This should be emphasized at check-in, verbally and in writing--maybe even signs posted. Sunday (last day) there were no marshallers in Vintage (South 40) for awhile, and an elderly pilot (probably younger than me) with a baby Beech cranked up and attempted to taxi out without sufficient clearance between his wing tips and parked aircraft. He stopped inches short of creaming the spinner of one of them. I helped him move his airplane, but he would not listen to my suggestion that we should push his airplane back and use a different route. After clearing the spinner, he cranked up again and was stopped by a protruding tent vestibule. So he got out and said, "I'm going to move that G-D tent!" Again I suggested that we push his airplane to a place where he could more easily taxi out. But he repeated himself, then pulled the stakes on the tent vestibule so we could pull his airplane past it. Then he got back in and cranked up again, to leave without restaking the tent. I signaled him to stop and cut his engine, which he did. I stepped in front of his wing and said, "You need to put that tent back up." "I'm not going to put that G-D tent up!" "Yes, you are. I'm not leaving until you do." He repeated himself, said he was in a hurry to leave, and I again told him that I wasn't moving, and if he was in a hurry to leave, he better get busy and put the tent back up. He then got out of the airplane and said, "I'll show you what I'm going to do." Somehow I didn't feel very threatened, and when he got out and realized that he was only up to my shoulder in height, I guess he had second thoughts. Instead he shouted, "You're a G-D idiot!" "That may be, but you're going to put the tent up." Again, "You're a G-D idiot!" About that time, a marshaller showed up and assisted him to put the tent back up, he got back in his airplane, cranked up and left.

I should emphasize that I'm not complaining about that last marshaller at all--he was diplomatic and very helpful, and the 10 minutes that went by from the time the Beech "driver" cranked up until he showed up wasn't excessive. Pilots need to be told, though, that moving in and out of the camping areas requires a marshaller, period, and that needs to be enforced in some fashion. As was obvious from this encounter, not all pilots are nice guys, and I'm willing to bet that if that pilot had damaged an airplane in his quest to leave, he would have been just as willing to leave the damage behind as he was intending to do by leaving the tent down.

Incidentally, the marshaller that eventually helped me move my airplane out by hand was also very, very helpful.

Cary

BrianS
08-26-2011, 07:24 AM
Pretty harsh post Brian, lol. Wow. Really? Wasn't meant harshly...Sorry <shrug>

The suggestion was to take an existing event designed to honor Lifetime Members and First Wing donors and to briefly highlight / mention "homebuilders."

I respect that suggestion - but I don't agree with it. I often attend this event, and I wouldn't want to see homebuilders asked to stand and be honored because I can imagine my table-mate muttering "I restored a Cub, why don't /I/ get to be honored?" This is my question - where does it end? Do we mention homebuilders at every Vintage function as well? At IAC events? What about the other way around?

I believe if you stripped everything else away - the Vintage, warbirds, non "homebuilt" vendors....it would still be the biggest "homebuilt" event around. Most planes, most vendors, most forums, etc.

It just so happens that this giant homebuilt event co-resides with a large antique fly-in, a large gathering of warbirds, a large commercial exhibit, etc.

This co-residence doesn't diminish the homebuilt aspect at all...in fact I think it highlights it and gets it to a much larger audience.

I've heard this cry - about Oshkosh (AirVenture), about Sport Aviation, etc neglecting homebuilders - for many, many years. I just don't see it that way.

That said - I'm not a homebuilder (yet...maybe someday).

(for the record, 38 year OSH attendee, second-generation lifetime member)

AllenR
08-26-2011, 10:19 AM
My response to the tram & bus schedules: I say EAA reduces the tram and bus schedule to save some money or at least do some advertising to encourage people to walk to their destinations....

Whoa! Don't reduce the tram & bus schedules. My family is at AV all week long and travel from one end of the grounds to the other every day due to volunteering and sightseeing. I like exercise too but my feet and back can't take 56 hours of hiking.

Someone made a comment about all the trash on the grounds. Hmmm, I didn't see it, I take that back, actually the only litter I saw was when the dust devil came through and blew the vendors' brochures all over. Other than that, I thought everyone did a pretty good job of policing themselves. Did see some dumpsters that were over-full though.

MNWORD
09-06-2011, 08:27 PM
We have a large-scale AirVenture debriefing coming up next week - I'll bring a copy of this thread and make sure that all of the concerns are heard, I can promise you that. I can't speak to all of them, but I can say that nobody will be griping louder than me about the vehicle traffic backup problems - I had to leave the grounds one afternoon and run home. My (normally) 12 minute return trip took nearly 90, so I'll be beating that drum from personal experience.

Hal How did the debrief meeting go?

Thanks mnword

Hal Bryan
09-07-2011, 06:55 AM
They went really well. There were no surprises in terms of the issues raised, especially with respect to traffic, parking, ongoing site improvments, etc. This meeting was the largest, so far, but far from the only debrief - managers and directors and senior staff met multiple times with their groups to collect feedback in advance, and now each area will delve back in and continue working out how to build on the things that went well and improve in those areas that did not.

One very specific bit of good news that came at the meeting was that the organizers of a major music festival that takes place just across the highway announced that they are rescheduling their event so that it no longer overlaps with AirVenture. That's not a specific improvement from this year, of course, but we're all breathing a sigh of relief knowing that at least traffic won't be several (tens of?) thousands of people worse...!

Anyway, while I'm confident that the concerns that have been raised so far have been heard, and then some, I hope all of you will please keep the feedback coming. We're always looking for ways to improve.

Ken Finney
09-13-2011, 02:08 PM
Hal-
This might not belong here, but this does seem to be the most active "post-Airventure" thread. For EAARadio, please, please, please in the future provide just a pure mp3 audio feed. It wouldn't take a lot of bandwidth, and it would be nice if it was not on the same system as the webcams, so that when the webcam traffic spikes, the mp3 audio doesn't get screwed up. All these proprietary formats used (e.g. "shockwave flash audio" cause all sorts of problems for many users, whereas mp3 works with everything!.

codetalker
09-29-2011, 01:58 PM
Hal-
This might not belong here, but this does seem to be the most active "post-Airventure" thread. For EAARadio, please, please, please in the future provide just a pure mp3 audio feed. It wouldn't take a lot of bandwidth, and it would be nice if it was not on the same system as the webcams, so that when the webcam traffic spikes, the mp3 audio doesn't get screwed up. All these proprietary formats used (e.g. "shockwave flash audio" cause all sorts of problems for many users, whereas mp3 works with everything!.

Ken,

First, EAA Radio is an ALL-VOLUNTEER venture. Although Hal is a frequent on-air guest, he is not at all involved in the operation of the station. In fact, all operations are handled by volunteers. We do have two EAA staff liaisons, but their role is much different than tasks related to station operation.

Second, EAA Radio is utilizing an IceCast stream - a PURE mp3 stream. The player on the webpage is there for those without the know-how to setup/configure a player. If you'd like, you can try connecting to an address below:

http://listen.eaaradio.net:8000/eaaradio64.m3u
(http://listen.eaaradio.net:8000/eaaradio64.m3u)
or

http://listen.eaaradio.net:8000/eaaradio64

One of these should work for you.

If you have any further issues, please feel free to contact me at codetalker@eaaradio.net

Thomas Balistreri
EAA Radio, Station Manager

Hal Bryan
09-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Thanks for jumping in, Codetalker! And Ken - sorry I didn't spot your message and ask one of the experts to chime in sooner. I read every thread every day, but just somehow managed to miss your post...! :|

codetalker
09-29-2011, 05:37 PM
"...and it would be nice if it was not on the same system as the webcams, so that when the webcam traffic spikes, the mp3 audio doesn't get screwed up."

Ken-

I forgot to address this part of your message in my earlier response, but suffice to say we have more bandwidth than we will ever use. The collective webcam/radio stream traffic spikes are barely making a dent in the available bandwidth.

Again, if you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me directly.

itsmee
11-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Osh was good as usual this year , these are my observations

I also would have liked to see a showcase flying before the airshow , there was none the 3 days i was there , be nice to see some of the manufacturers and homebuilts actually flying for us all to see whats out there.

I agree the last 2 years the Eagle Hanger has been set up with chairs and you could not get in there to see anything.

And way too much golf-cart / vehicle traffic inside the grounds , you could hardly walk without someone trying to squeeze their way by you or worse flying by you going way too fast.

Mud was terrible in Camp Scholler , i know its natures fault , but i think if they had used some of those wood chips i saw inside the grounds at least at the intersections of the worst muddy places in Camp Scholler it sure would have helped.

And what was with the traffic this year , got there on Friday morning and ALL traffic going to the airshow was diverted off the highway onto the side road that goes by Camp Scholler entrance made for a very long line and wait to actually even get to the turn-off for Camping Registration , i do not remember this configuration last year.

All in all another fun year at Osh and seeya all next year in Camp Scholler , we used to get a hotel every year and after just 1 time using Camp Scholler we'll never do anything but camp now , your camping facilities are the best i think.

rawheels
12-12-2011, 10:10 AM
On the Friday before the show we needed to get to building D to pick up our vendor passes from a co-worker. I really appreciated the fact that the person at the gate allowed us to enter the grounds to go to the booth to pick them up. They could have been really strict and made the person bring the passes to us. I really appreciated the common sense. Actually got stopped a second time on the way to the booth by teen “security” and had the same result.

I enjoyed the Fly-in theater again this year (although I skipped “True Grit”, let’s not repeat the non-aviation movie idea please). It always amazes me that even the side events, like those, happen so well at AirVenture. They’re doing a great job with the short pre-movie presentations too. A lot better than the way-to-long versions the first couple of years.

I enjoyed seeing the Rutan designs up front this year. It was great to honor a living legend, but I also hope it doesn’t mean that the Wittman aircraft have permanently lost their spot. It has always been a fun thing to point out to guests that those aircraft get the front spots to honor Steve @ Wittman Airport.

steveinindy
12-12-2011, 01:47 PM
the Wittman aircraft have permanently lost their spot.

It's odd because I wouldn't know a Wittman design if it clipped me with its wing until the NTSB preliminary report came out. I know I have seen them before but they just blend in so much with the rest of that category of aircraft that it's hard for anyone but a true fan to be able to go "That's a _______". I think the reason why Rutan got so much attention is because his work really pushed the field forward beyond simply being fabric, wood and aluminum copies of existing designs. The ignorance of folks like myself on the matter of Wittman's designs is probably a good reason why he should be given a similar "review" as what Rutan received.

rawheels
01-04-2012, 09:37 AM
It's odd because I wouldn't know a Wittman design if it clipped me with its wing

Google "Wittman Tailwind" and if you've been to the show before, I bet you'll recognize them; they're pretty unique and usually right up front near Aeroshell Square. Make it a point next year to read up on Steve at AirVenture 2012. There is information on him at the pioneer airport and the museum (and probably others). In the meantime check out the short blimp here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wittman

I've never owned one of his designs, but respect him for his many aviation accomplishments.

Skyratsppg
01-10-2012, 09:58 PM
Well, just thought I would drop in my 2 centsThis was our first Osh, we pulled our 30' rv from western NY (780 mi each way)We stayed in the ultralight campin area on "the farm", and we were wowed!I flew my lowly foot launched powered paraglider around the UL pattern and was honored for the privilege to do so. The scale of the entire event and the fact that it functions at all, is pure magic, I guess I haven't been to enough of these to see a need for improvement. I cannot say enough about the volunteers, UNBELIEVEALE....Keep it upI'll be back!Andywww.skyratsppg.com

adiposestem
01-11-2012, 12:57 AM
Thank you!

MNWORD
05-08-2012, 08:42 AM
Minutes are most definitely kept - we've already generated pages and pages of notes from each department, and this larger meeting will be the first step, starting to encapsulate those and build up action plans over the coming months. I don't know that we've ever specifically published anything out of these, and that's a call that would come from above my pay grade, frankly.

But I can tell you that when we all get in the room and start talking about what went well and what needs improvement, there won't be any surprises. Except maybe the fact that we're our own harshest critics...:) Hal was just wondering what changes have been made since last year to Camp Schollar especially with the mud and what is ongoing coming up to the show. Thanks

rawheels
05-09-2012, 06:02 AM
Hal was just wondering what changes have been made since last year to Camp Schollar especially with the mud and what is ongoing coming up to the show. Thanks

Is the person who was updating the AirVenture site improvement blog still employed by EAA? The improvements for the mud & dust were mentioned on it last fall: http://airventuresiteupdate.blogspot.com/

MNWORD
05-09-2012, 07:52 AM
Thanks RAWHEELS appreciate the update, Looks like form the post and the maps, that it will have a BIG improvment over the last few mudfests/sloshkosh years. Once again thank you.
mnword

MEdwards
05-09-2012, 12:44 PM
Is the person who was updating the AirVenture site improvement blog still employed by EAA?Good question. That blog was great in 2010, when they made some major changes to the grounds. He kept everybody informed as they went along, and kept my interest up during the year preceding the event. The blog has been pretty much neglected since then. Maybe it was just too much trouble, but in my view it was worthwhile.

anngray
05-10-2012, 07:19 PM
Charles, there is a rule that no one under 18 can drive one of the gators or golf carts. Volunteers violate this all the time. You are right it is very, very dangerous. Complain to the Headquarters Office, get the name of the person you talk to and then write a letter. This is serious business. Not that the over 18s aren't dangerous as well. They are.

cptomes
05-12-2012, 08:37 AM
I emailed the EAA staff about it before I posted in this thread last year.

I also wanted to make sure it was public knowledge.

I haven't forgotten this event (EAA staff speeding down Shaick in Gators) and will see how Airventure 2012 goes. My tolerance level for that kind of behavior will be even less this year.

You know, I think the only way to enforce things like this would be to confiscate the show wristband of the driver, or if the driver doesn't have one, the registered camper/attendee of the vehicle.


Because there are no consequences (at least there is that perception) some people will never do the right thing.