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Lindberg
04-11-2012, 08:53 AM
Looks like we are going to honor the pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor at AirVenture 2012. That would not have happened a few years ago when a lot of WWII pilots still came to Oshkosh. Going to be interesting to see "politically correct" this will be presented. I doubt we will see a B-29 dropping it's simulated egg as that would be very most likely considered "inappropriate."....... What would "Pappy" Gregory Boyington say?

FlyingRon
04-11-2012, 08:59 AM
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of Nagasaki.

I think it's a stretch to say we're honoring the Japanese. This is just a "reenactment" for the crowd. I'm sure the narration will have the usual pro-US military flavor it always does. Even if you go to Ford Island and to the Pacific Air Museum which still has bullet holes in the windows, you will see displays on the Japanese. Hard to talk about WWII without involving them.

It would be really cool if they could get an Interstate Cadet and do a Cornelia Fort flyby in the middle of the "battle."

Of course, this is most likely just going to be big booms from Rick's Inedible Pyro to please the Airventure Lawn Chair masses. At least it's not the darn jet truck again.

Kevin O'Halloran
04-11-2012, 09:10 AM
I don't see this as honoring the pilots--just part of american history
Don't see too many people getting pissed off when the ME109 or the FW 190 fly at Oshkosh
This reminds me of My Dads 80th birthday--I gave him a new Mercedes SUV--he just looked at me and said--not going to take it--I just looked at him and said Why????
He replied--you wern't around for the big one---I asked what???---He said WWII
Told him he was in the pacific theatre--never fought a German in his life--besides--the damn car is made in the US. He's 90 now--still driving the SUV--has a few racing stripes on it from putting it in the garage--
Kevin

Lindberg
04-11-2012, 09:20 AM
We'll just have to wait and see. Seems we have become such an "apologetic" nation these days. Nagasaki? Haven't been there, but I've bee in Hiroshima and lived 325 nautical miles from there for several years. Arigatou gozaimasu!

Zack Baughman
04-11-2012, 09:24 AM
Lindberg, the Tora! Tora! Tora! team has been to Oshkosh before - I remember seeing them back in the late 90's when I first started coming to AirVenture. I never heard any complaints from the veterans in the crowd back then, and that was 15+ years ago. They put on a heck of a good show. You've got to remember, it was the CAF that originally started the Tora Tora act, and if you think a bunch of good ol' boys from Texas (and I mean that in a very lovingly way) were doing it to honor the Japanese pilots that attacked Pearl Harbor, then I think you need to read up on the CAF. I feel you are making much ado about nothing. As for the B-29, I'm guessing you missed FIFI's performance last year at AirVenture when she ended her flight with a tremendous pyro explosion as she flew west over the crowd line before landing. I guess the ooo's and ahhh's along with the cheering and clapping from the crowd were inappropriate, as was my reaction as I cheered along with them.

Zack

Lindberg
04-11-2012, 09:29 AM
I don't remember any ME109's or FW 190's attacking American soil while peace talks were going on, but what the hell, right (I guess they did attack the Lusitania, but now wew are going back a bit. ........YOU GAVE YOUR DAD A NEW MERCEDES SUV! Good golly! You work for the GSA? Hell, I'd take a Hyundai if it was for free.

Lindberg
04-11-2012, 09:38 AM
Been going to OSH for over 27 years now. Yep I've seen them. My comment was is about whether they are going to be honored this time. Didn't say they should not be flown or shown. Seen FiFi also. Just never seen her drop a simulated nuke. My guess is I won't.

BTW, Zack. I did hear some grumbling from some old WW II vets, when the old jap pilot who supposedly shot down Boyington was selling his book at Oshkosh, but I could understand that. Didn't mean that I did not want him there or does it mean that i don't want to see any WWII jap aircraft.

Zack Baughman
04-11-2012, 09:43 AM
Did you also hear grumbling from vets about Pappy? I sure have!

Kevin O'Halloran
04-11-2012, 09:46 AM
Lindberg
Just pay back for all the things he did for me
payed for my flying lessons when I was 16
When I was in College--let me load up my fraternity brothers in the A36 during spring break and fly them to the bahamas .
One spring break--5 of us flew to New Orleans--got drunk--slept under the wings of the Bonanza--took off early the next morning for Cozumel --about 700 miles over open water---using a ADF !!!
I look back and think--"what the hell was my dad thinking??"
Those early years of flying and those trips just got me ready for the yearly trips to Oshkosh !!
See you guys in 100 Days !!!!
Kevin

Hangar10
04-11-2012, 10:05 AM
If memory serves... Tora! Tora! Tora! is about the attack on Pearl Harbor... not sure why a 29 would be dropping nukes anyway.

Perhaps you are saying that we should have an American response to that display? Not sure...

steveinindy
04-11-2012, 10:08 AM
Did you also hear grumbling from vets about Pappy? I sure have!

Likewise. I've also seen those same vets (and others) buy drinks for both German and Japanese veterans. One of my most vivid memories as a kid (I used to hang around the VFW hall in my hometown) was when one of the former P-51 jocks walked in with one of his friends who was visiting. His "friend" happened to have been Erich Hartmann. I remember that comment being made that "fighter pilots are fighter pilots and no one can ever understand one like a fellow pilot regardless of which country they flew for."

steveinindy
04-11-2012, 10:09 AM
If memory serves... Tora! Tora! Tora! is about the attack on Pearl Harbor... not sure why a 29 would be dropping nukes anyway.

Perhaps you are saying that we should have an American response to that display? Not sure...

Oh you know that little group of reenactors will be in on this. We have to give them something to do to justify their presence and taking up parking for aircraft.

Rick Rademacher
04-11-2012, 11:34 AM
Zack,

As a Cub was flying during the Pearl Harbor raid, a Cub should be a part of this Tora,Tora,Tora act. I will volunteer as long as I don't have to fly in the flames.

steveinindy
04-11-2012, 11:38 AM
Rick, do you need a copilot/cameraman for this flight? If so, I call dibs.

FlyingRon
04-11-2012, 12:01 PM
If memory serves... Tora! Tora! Tora! is about the attack on Pearl Harbor... not sure why a 29 would be dropping nukes anyway.

Maybe we should reenact the entire war in the pacific in the course of an airshow. We can start with the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, get some torpedo bombers to do the battle of Midway, get some B-25's to show us a short field carrier takeoff and bomb Tokyo, and finish it of with two atomic detonations.

Ask Rick if he knows how to make a mushroom cloud.

Floatsflyer
04-11-2012, 07:46 PM
I'm at a loss to understand what the fuss is all about here. The TTT show is really not unlike the Warbirds extraveganza we've seen on Friday and Saturday at Osh, infact it's identical in presentation and execution. About 8-10 replica Hollywood Zeros and torpedo bombers flying repititious circular patterns with smoke, big pyro and an announcer providing a history lesson. For me, like watching NASCAR in the air---booorrriiing and uninspiring!! Go ahead...I'm ready for your best shots.

steveinindy
04-11-2012, 07:57 PM
For me, like watching NASCAR in the air---booorrriiing and uninspiring!!

Pretty much my take on most aspects of airshows. I'd much rather just watch the standard airport traffic that is associated with Oshkosh. The only time I paid attention last year was when FIFI arrived and even then I just watched her come in from back by one of the vendor pavilions. It's one of the few times that watching an airplane has made me so happy I almost teared up.

Floatsflyer
04-11-2012, 08:09 PM
Steve, I agree. Seeing FIFI last year is in my top 5 highlights of attending many years of AV. I had never seen a B-29 in person so it was quite a thrill to watch it fly and then to actually view it up close and touch it....priceless!

Floatsflyer
04-11-2012, 08:32 PM
To Lindberg, the thread originator here who posed the question, "What would Pappy Boyington say?" Well, I met him and talked to him in 1981 at Osh where he had a booth selling and signing copies of his autobiography at the height of his popularity just after Baa Baa Black Sheep went off the air. Pappy was a physically large and imposing figure who was gruff and jagged around the edges. He spoke his mind without fear of consequences, was not enamoured with authority figures and didn't give a crap about political or cultural correctness.

So what would he say? He'd say, "I want to get together with any surviving Japanese pilots I dog fought with, open a bottle of whiskey and remember the best years of my lucky life."

steveinindy
04-12-2012, 05:46 AM
So what would he say? He'd say, "I want to get together with any surviving Japanese pilots I dog fought with, open a bottle of whiskey and remember the best years of my lucky life."

If I recall correctly, he actually did that at one point.

Jim Hann
04-12-2012, 09:47 AM
So what would he say? He'd say, "I want to get together with any surviving Japanese pilots I dog fought with, open a bottle of whiskey and remember the best years of my lucky life."

If I recall correctly, he actually did that at one point.

I'd bet you are both correct.

There is a new book out about Boyington called Black Sheep: The Life of Pappy Boyington. I'm hoping to pick up a copy eventually, don't have the free cash right now.


Here is a quote from the review by Phil Scott (bold added by me):


<snip> Boyington led the Black Sheep across the South Pacific. He was shot down on January 3, 1944. Fished out of the sea by the Japanese, Boyington spent the next 19 months as their sober guest, finding a nobility in resisting their extreme cruelty. After VJ Day, he arrived home and received the Medal of Honor awarded to him when he was MIA. He considered entering politics, but he started boozing again and drank himself through a host of jobs before being consumed by bronchitis, emphysema, and lung cancer. (He died in 1988.) Truthfully, the best time of Boyington’s life was war.<snip>

I would tend to agree with Mr. Scott also.


Review: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Reviews-and-Previews-Prodigal-Son.html


Book: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Sheep-Boyington-Library-Biography/dp/1591149770

Bill Greenwood
04-12-2012, 10:26 AM
"What would Pappy say"?
Well, I met Pappy back in the 80's, didn't now him well at all, but I did see him at several shows where the famous Japanese author and pilot was also there, and I never saw any friction.

I once had dinner with Pappy, just the two of us. Mostly, I ate and listened and Pappy drank.

So I think what he would say is, "What time does the bar open"?

Regardless of any afterwar drinking problems, Pappy was a genuine war ace fighter pilot, even if there is some debate about the exact number of victories or when they were.

Lindberg
04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
To Floater:

I too met Pappy. Many times. I also worked with a guy who flew for him in the Pacific. I do not agree that Pappy would open a bottle of whiskey and drink it with a jap pilot that he had been in a dog fight with. Pappy was really pissed about the jap pilot that was at Oshkosh peddling a book and claiming that he was the pilot that shot Boyington down. I talked with Pappy a lot about Japan, mainly because I lived there for nearly 4 years and during the occupation. He had little admiration of them after had spent tiime in a Jap prison. they did not know he was Boyington or they would have executed him as he had been a flying tiger pilot. He also quit drinking after the war, although he had fallen off the wagon a time or two.

As for the Tora, Tora, Tora topic, I see that a few of you have wet your pants. Good. However, go back to my original post. I didn't say they should or would. I just wondered. I sense big changes in EAA. Diversity and multicultural influences. So be it. I got the best part, but that is just my opinion. Those from the Hales Corner's days and Rockford most likely have another point of view. It is what it is.

Thomas Stute
04-12-2012, 02:10 PM
Guys, I do not understand all the discussion in this thread. WW2 endet 67 years ago and I guess nobody discussing in this thread had any vital role in WW2 air combat. I understand preserving, flying and displaying warbirds from WW2 era as a tribute to these who, in good faith for doing the right thing for their country, designed, build and flew these magnificant technical achievements not regarding if it were Americans, Japanese, British, Germans, Russians..and so on. So all these boys having flown in combat, risking their lives for their country deserve respect and so also the Jap pilots attacking Pearl Harbour are in a way honored by the display. Not the pilots were the criminals, but the politicians on all sides bear the responsibility for sending them into war, with or without formal declaration.
So lets honor these brave young men who have risked their lives while flying these beautiful warbirds by enjoying the aerial displays of today. By the way, the pic at the left shows my Dad's pilots badge which he wore as agerman fighter pilot (Bf109, FW190, Me262) in WW2.

steveinindy
04-12-2012, 03:54 PM
So lets honor these brave young men who have risked their lives while flying these beautiful warbirds by enjoying the aerial displays of today. By the way, the pic at the left shows my Dad's pilots badge which he wore as agerman fighter pilot (Bf109, FW190, Me262) in WW2.

Your father has my respect. If by some chance, he is still alive please tell him that.

Chris Henry
04-13-2012, 08:05 AM
(WARNING: HEAVY DOSES OF SARCASM AHEAD) Yep...remember the days when the women would stay home and bake cookies?* Yep, those were the days!The Tora act is a tradition in the CAF history books. It is meant to tell the story of the Pearl Harbor attack so that the younger generations don't forget. It has nothing to do with anything else. People just love to bash EAA and Oshkosh here. The Blacksheep have no interest in meeting Japanese. I was with 4 of them in Reading when the airshow coordinator offered to have a photo taken shaking hands with some zero pilots. They refused and used some 4 letter words.

Lindberg
04-13-2012, 08:12 AM
President Franklin D. Roosevelt: Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy (def: a criminal and shameful outrageous act) —the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.
The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our secretary of state a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack...

I see no honor here, and the attack was not honorable. I hold no ill will towards today's Japanese as they are no our allies. I understand that the young pilots who flew in the attack were so full of propaganda forced into them by the Japanese military, but there was no honor in the attack, nor should they be honored.

I enjoy seeing the aircraft. (They are not real jap aircraft.) I can enjoy watching them perform. I do not honor them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it is presented this year. Seems that history is being rewritten each year. We certainly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings now, do we?

Zack Baughman
04-13-2012, 08:27 AM
Sigh...

Bill Greenwood
04-13-2012, 08:41 AM
The Tora act is pretty spectacular to see. And for those of you looking to something to find fault with, the focus of the act is that the U S was unprepared for the attack and caught by surprise. It has nothing to do with honoring the Japs. This act did start the war for the U S and the other part of the attack is usually a CAF P-40 that comes in an shoots down some of the bombers or torpedo planes.

Lindberg
04-13-2012, 11:12 AM
Yes. That was how it used to be. Perhaps it will still be presented as that. My point in all this was something apparently some have missed. Perhaps I should be more "politically correct" with a "kum bay yah" and "I want to buy the world a Coke" post. After all, that's what EAA is now. Still, I get this feeling when I am standing around all those B-25's, Corsair's, P-51's and our now dwindling present day military aircraft, that the only reason we are discussing this now is because of the American people who built, maintained and flew them.

No matter what, there is always the beer tent and the Acee Ducee.

steveinindy
04-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Sigh...

My thoughts exactly Zack.

tonycondon
04-13-2012, 11:53 AM
i'm pretty sure there are more P-51's and B-17's flying now than there were 10 or 20 years ago.

Frank Giger
04-14-2012, 01:32 AM
And yet weirdly everyone gathers around a brightly colored WWI German airplane faster and thicker than they do a drab French or British one - and nobody gets upset at the implications of what the Great War meant in terms of lives lost.

;)

flymichigan
04-14-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't have strong feelings either way regarding the Tora, Tora, Tora reenactment, but I guess that is because I am too young to relate. WWII was over long before my I was born. (I am 38). That said, I would be very upset if they had Boeing 767's simulating an attack on the twin towers.

I guess I can see both sides of this issue.

Bryan D

Lindberg
04-15-2012, 09:42 AM
That's interesting, Bryan. I thought about that also. There is a point of view by some that the terrorists were on a "honorable" mission. I don't buy it, of course, but as I noted previously, history is continually being re-written. Again, I will say that although I can appreciate seeing what was once enemy aircraft displayed and even flying (The reenactment is not with real jap aircraft.) my only point is about whether it "attack" will be honored. As mentioned before, a few years back former American pilots attending "Oshkosh" were not so appreciative former enemy pilots.

I guess we can only wait and see if the now politically correct organization who had to change their name because it offended some will make changes in their presentation. I never suggested that the Tora, Tora, Tora reenactment should not happen at all, but if it is the desire to show what happened, let's be sure that we do not portray the attack as an act of conventional warfare. It was a war crime. Don't forget that the US and it's allies executed Japanese after the war because of war crimes and the Pearl Harbor attack was just one of them.

I think I will stop making statements on this topic. I feel the "censorship" button is about to be pushed. I just hate that when it happens.

steveinindy
04-15-2012, 10:02 AM
There's a pretty big difference between a hijacked airliner being flown as a manned cruise missile against a civilian population center and the use of a well-orchestrated strike by a military against a base.


Don't forget that the US and it's allies executed Japanese after the war because of war crimes and the Pearl Harbor attack was just one of them.

Actually, no, it wasn't. It was not a war crime because it did not violate any of the rules of warfare in place at that time. The folks who were executed were punished for the various examples of human experimentation, mass murder of unarmed parties (civilians or PoWs) , use of biological or chemical weapons, etc. No one was executed directly or indirectly for the Pearl Harbor attack itself. Even the mission to take out Yamamoto- while often painted as a "retaliation" for Pearl Harbor- had more to do with eliminating the most capable strategic and tactical leader the Japanese had in their ranks. The closest thing to a "war crimes" charge for the Pearl Harbor attacks could- in a very general way- be the charge leveled against some of the senior leadership of "waging aggressive war against the United States". However, the comments that accompanied those charges make it clear that they were leveled more towards the excesses allowed by the high command than the specific initiation of the war: "The indictment accused the defendants of promoting a scheme of conquest that "contemplated and carried out ... murdering, maiming and ill-treating prisoners of war (and) civilian internees ... forcing them to labor under inhumane conditions ... plundering public and private property, wantonly destroying cities, towns and villages beyond any justification of military necessity; (perpetrating) mass murder, rape, pillage, brigandage, torture and other barbaric cruelties upon the helpless civilian population of the over-run countries."

flymichigan
04-15-2012, 11:16 AM
My point of my reply was not to say that the 911 attacks were more or less honorable than the Pearl Harbor attack. They both were dishonorable and despicable. My point was that the passing of time seems to make reenactments more palatable to the masses.

Bryan D

steveinindy
04-15-2012, 11:36 AM
My point of my reply was not to say that the 911 attacks were more or less honorable than the Pearl Harbor attack. They both were dishonorable and despicable. My point was that the passing of time seems to make reenactments more palatable to the masses.

Bryan D

Here's the odd thing: I know quite a few of the veterans of Pearl Harbor. One of them was sunbathing one of the hangars on Ford Island near where the first bomb landed. Almost all of them have made the point that while it was a sneak attack (which is kind of a given in military operations: you would have to be pretty stupid to give a well armed enemy a courtesy call before an attack), that from a military standpoint, it was a beautifully orchestrated and executed attack.

I'm a veteran myself and while I see where you're coming from in assessing this as "dishonorable" and "despicable", I should point out that if you want to really look at it, most (all?) military operations tend to be able to be assessed in those same manners especially by the folks who were on the losing end of the battle. The attack the Americans made against Truk Lagoon, the Doolittle bombing raids on Tokyo, etc were all surprise attacks but you'd be hard pressed to find an American who doesn't look at them as heroic.

There's nothing "honorable" or "dishonorable" about armed conflict (unless you're targeting civilians, etc). It sucks and the sooner we ditch this notion that there can be honor in it, the sooner we will start focusing on avoiding it at all costs. That said, there should be a lot of respect for the skill and bravery of the pilots on both sides. That is what should be taken away from the idea of a display about the raid on Pearl. Regardless of who won fought for, it takes a great deal of skill to operate from a carrier, fly into combat, do your job and then come back to land on that same carrier. I have no less respect for the Japanese pilots than I do for their American counterparts. That is one thing my grandfather- a veteran of the US Navy during WWII- drilled into my head as a kid. He said he never saw braver or more respectable men than those he fought with and against and anyone who disagreed was going to answer to him.

Bill Greenwood
04-15-2012, 02:08 PM
Japonese diplomats were supposed to deliver a document to Sec. of State Cordull Hull just before the Pearl Harbor attack, but they were an hour or so late. I am not sure if this document was a full declaration of war, or just canceling all diplomaitic relations, which amounted to the same thing.
So it was a "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor. I don't know enough about the history of wars and legality of wars to know if that alone constitutes any war crime. I doubt it. If the U S and/or Israel make a bombing attack on IRAN, I don't think we will look at it as a crime.
The Pearl Harbor attack was against legitimate military targets, not the civilian population or the city; any such damage was incidental and minor. Of course there were hundreds of crimes committed by the Japs in other parts of the war.
Once the Allies got within bombing range of the home islands our B-29 raids were mostly against civilians in the cities and with the atomic bombs the U S is still the only nation in history to use nuclear weapons and the downside of it is that most of the victims of those two bombs were women, old men,and children in the cities,not the military fanatics most responsible for the war. We even intentionally spared the emperor.

steveinindy
04-15-2012, 03:32 PM
any such damage was incidental and minor.

....and ironically mostly due to the anti-aircraft shells the Americans fired.

Sawdust
05-15-2012, 11:51 PM
Quite the discussion, and I'll add my two cents. I've lived the last 25 years in Houston and attend Wings Over Houston every year - so I see the Tora, Tora, Tora act every year. I believe it very much honors the USA and the people of that great generation. It starts with Pearl Harbor, but then goes on through the conflict and conveys how Allied and American ingenuity, engineering, determination and power won the war. I have always thought this act to be quite honoring to the legacy of our forces in WWII. Not sure if OSH will get the full show we get in Houston, since OSH is so much farther from the Commemorative Air Force home base in Texas, but watch and listen to the narration, and I believe most will appreciate the message.

ozzieandgracie
05-16-2012, 05:33 AM
I think the Tora, Tora, Tora presentation this year at Oshkosh is perfectly appropriate. It's not like AirVenture is out trying to make a political statement of any kind. In my opinion, in performing the Tora, Tora, Tora show, AirVenture is not out to honor any particular nationality, race or army; their position is to honor the aircraft that flew at Pearl Harbor, afterall, this is an airshow, not a political arena.

Mike M
05-16-2012, 05:58 AM
...I guess they did attack the Lusitania, but now now are going back a bit...I'd take a Hyundai if it was for free.

yep, RMS Lusitania is too early for WWII, try this one instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICy5P1pKy5A

hyundai is a south korean company. south korea never attacked USA, s'fars i know.

flyingriki
05-16-2012, 08:39 AM
I think the Tora, Tora, Tora presentation this year at Oshkosh is perfectly appropriate. It's not like AirVenture is out trying to make a political statement of any kind. In my opinion, in performing the Tora, Tora, Tora show, AirVenture is not out to honor any particular nationality, race or army; their position is to honor the aircraft that flew at Pearl Harbor, afterall, this is an airshow, not a political arena.

And I still say they should include a re-enactment of the World Trade Center coming down.....same difference. After all they were American airliners and this is an airshow.
No political statement just a complete lack of common sense and respect for the thousands that died that day. And gee it's so cool looking - ooh, ahhh...
!

Lindberg
05-17-2012, 10:05 AM
For those who think the Tora, Tora, Tora "show" is so great, I suggest they go to the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor and discuss the "fantastic" re-creation of the Japanese attack and how "appropriate" it is.

I can appreciate seeing enemy aircraft and I can enjoy seeing them restored and flown. Making a carnival sideshow of the vicious attack on December 7, 1941 is not appropriate anymore than seeing a re-creation of dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

However, this is still a somewhat free country and no one yet has forced me to watch Tora, Tora, Tora, so for those of you who cherish this waste of avgas, enjoy. I'll be enjoying an adult beverage or two nearby. Power for Peace............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgE2KiPd3xg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

flyingriki
05-17-2012, 02:35 PM
I can appreciate seeing enemy aircraft and I can enjoy seeing them restored and flown. Making a carnival sideshow of the vicious attack on December 7, 1941 is not appropriate anymore than seeing a re-creation of dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

Well said, my point exactly. Spent a couple hours polishing a Zero at Chino a couple weeks ago. Very interesting plane and the pilot had a lot of good things to say about it. To see it glorified as to the thousands they killed that day - no way - not even cool. Sad to see so many don't recognize this. Very sad.

steveinindy
05-17-2012, 02:42 PM
Well said, my point exactly. Spent a couple hours polishing a Zero at Chino a couple weeks ago. Very interesting plane and the pilot had a lot of good things to say about it. To see it glorified as to the thousands they killed that day - no way - not even cool. Sad to see so many don't recognize this. Very sad.
I would tend to agree. I don't think there should be any glorification of war on either side but it smacks strongly of hypocrisy. We have no problem portraying thousands of people being killed in other engagements. You know....so long as they happen to march under another flag or be a different color than us. ;)

However, if you want to see warplanes flying and doing more than just loops, you kind of have to tolerate portrayals of what they did. Politics aside (and that's all this is debate revolves around), anyone who flew an airplane in combat is deserving of some tacit respect. I've never seen a combat pilot spit in the face of a former adversary and call him a coward or murderer.

Of course Riki, you're going to disagree and tell me I'm wrong but we're each entitled to our opinions. It's one of the things that makes this country marginally tolerable most of the time.

Lindberg
05-18-2012, 09:45 AM
I would tend to agree. I don't think there should be any glorification of war on either side but it smacks strongly of hypocrisy. We have no problem portraying thousands of people being killed in other engagements. You know....so long as they happen to march under another flag or be a different color than us. ;)


Perhaps, but I march under the flag that bears stars and stripes in colors of red, white and blue, so if being a patriot is being a hypocrite then that is what I am. The last time I checked, nobody was trying to escape out of here. Though EAA is an organization that welcomes people from all over the world, I don't think it has yet become a wing of the United Nations.

RV8505
05-18-2012, 09:49 AM
We would quote Blazzing sadles when I was in the Navy. "Mongo only pawn in game of life ! " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10 That pretty much summed it up.

Zack Baughman
05-18-2012, 09:59 AM
Purely my own personal opinion on this issue, but how many folks under the age of say, 50, actually bother to take a moment and remember what happened at Pearl Harbor on December 7 each year? I'd wager that it's not very many. My birthday happens to fall on December 7, so I have a built-in reminder. Some of you feel that the Tora! Tora! Tora! act is celebrating the attack on Pearl Harbor, and I disagree. I think it is commemorating the event, the loss of lives, America's entry into the war, and helping to make sure that current and future generations DO NOT FORGET. Beyond that, strip away all historical connotations of the act and what it represents, and you have a super cool air show performance with lots of radial noise, smoke, and some excellent pyro. It's simply fun to watch.

But again, let's not confuse "celebrate" with "commemorate." The Tora! Tora! Tora! act does the latter in my opinion.

Zack

flyingriki
05-18-2012, 05:39 PM
Zack you are too young to understand and don't seem to understand even that. You don't commemorate something by making the act of atrocity "cool pyro", it's done in a much more considerate and respectful manner. Something tells me there is money involved in this decision, not respect or common sense.
You are confusing commemoration with recreating an atrocity for it's showy COOL factor and thinking, for some absurd reason, that this is commemorative and respectful. It's NOT. It is disrespectful and disgusting and ya'll ought to be ashamed.

And for those that would think the survivors would put a stop to this if it was important - they have more important things on their minds - LIKE BREATHING DAY TO DAY AT 80 AND 90+ years old - what a ridiculous theory. And if they are like my father was, they just shake their heads at idiots and ignore them. As I probably should - or will - done here.
So much for opinions.....

steveinindy
05-18-2012, 05:49 PM
Zack you are too young to understand and don't seem to understand even that. You don't commemorate something by making the act of atrocity "cool pyro", it's done in a much more considerate and respectful manner. Something tells me there is money involved in this decision, not respect or common sense.
So much for opinions.....

It's odd that I've seen an airshow portrayal of the Pearl Harbor attack (not sure if it was this particular show since it was a number of years ago) while standing next to my friend Rudy who survived the attack and to this day refers to use the term "Japanese" instead referring to the folks who attacked him using a pejorative that I won't repeat. I don't think he's too young to understand. He said he thought it was respectfully done and that there was no offense intended. If the survivors haven't risen up and put a stop to this (and the media would just LOVE that), then I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on to bitch about it being inappropriate or disrespectful.



think it is commemorating the event, the loss of lives, America's entry into the war, and helping to make sure that current and future generations DO NOT FORGET.

That's the attitude Rudy took when I asked him about it. His exact words were "Maybe the smoke and fire and the airplanes will get a few kids interested in what myself and my brothers went through. A memorial and passages in books don't mean much to kids these days."

Zack Baughman
05-18-2012, 09:47 PM
Zack you are too young to understand and don't seem to understand even that. You don't commemorate something by making the act of atrocity "cool pyro", it's done in a much more considerate and respectful manner. Something tells me there is money involved in this decision, not respect or common sense. You are confusing commemoration with recreating an atrocity for it's showy COOL factor and thinking, for some absurd reason, that this is commemorative and respectful. It's NOT. It is disrespectful and disgusting and ya'll ought to be ashamed.And for those that would think the survivors would put a stop to this if it was important - they have more important things on their minds - LIKE BREATHING DAY TO DAY AT 80 AND 90+ years old - what a ridiculous theory. And if they are like my father was, they just shake their heads at idiots and ignore them. As I probably should - or will - done here.So much for opinions.....Hmm, too young too understand? I beg to differ. I make my living interviewing WWII veterans and preserving their stories for future generations. I've talked to dozens of Pearl Harbor survivors. I have a degree in history and have taken multiple courses on the subject of WWII - cultural, economic, military, and political. I'd wager I have a pretty fair understanding of the situation. So please Sir, do not assume I have no understanding of what Tora Tora Tora represents. You obviously missed my point regarding the noise and pyro. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on what celebrate and commemorate mean and leave it at that. Zack

Chris Henry
05-20-2012, 07:00 AM
This has got to be the dumbest crap I have ever heard. WWII vets will be offended? This display was originally started by WWII vets. Do some research before you get offended. This act has been going on for 40 years. SO now you are offended? You know what offends me? Forgetting history or glazing over it like the media loves to do. That is worse. Current history books don't teach enough WWII, and Jap one's don't even mention it. The 9/11 comments make me laugh. On 9/11 I wasn't watching it on a TV, I was looking at it first hand. And let me tell you something. How this country has forgotten what happened there is a bigger disgrace than flying two airliners around at an airshow would ever be. Some of you people really need a grip. Next thing the Civil War rean actors will be a disgrace too.

Bill Greenwood
05-20-2012, 10:04 AM
What is really an outrage is those movies. Do you know there are at least three movies about the sinking of the Titanic, including the latest version in 3D.
Do you know that in all those movies the iceberg does not give the Captain advance notice of its attack, it just lies there secretly in wait, kind of like the Japs. And in all three of these movies the ending is the same, the iceberg wins.

I can't believe there are movies that glorify this attack by the iceberg. And in these movies no P-40 came to help.

Zack, I thought your reply was classy and level headed. You don't need to say much more, we hope to see you in July.

Lindberg
05-20-2012, 10:41 AM
OK, kids. Let's all "simma down now." This is my original post:

"Looks like we are going to honor the pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor at AirVenture 2012. That would not have happened a few years ago when a lot of WWII pilots still came to Oshkosh. Going to be interesting to see "politically correct" this will be presented. I doubt we will see a B-29 dropping it's simulated egg as that would be very most likely considered "inappropriate."....... What would "Pappy" Gregory Boyington say?"

It didn't say Tora, Tora, Tora should or shouldn't be presented, but questioned as to whether the aerial demonstration "honored" the pilots or the attack. The attack was not "honorable" nor were the pilots. They were doing what they were ordered to do. I just remember that many of the Americans were not real appreciative of the attack "which will live in infamy." Note definition of infamy: extremely bad reputation, public reproach, or strong condemnation as the result of a shameful, criminal, or outrageous act: a time that will live in infamy.


Once again, "Would it be "appropriate" to demonstrate an attack on Hiroshima with a B-29 flying overhead and simulate dropping an atomic bomb? Why not? There would be those who would have tantrums, fits and "gnashing of teeth" were that to happen.

Time does not change history. Only people, especially those who majored in history, teach and write about history, change history.

steveinindy
05-20-2012, 02:55 PM
Once again, "Would it be "appropriate" to demonstrate an attack on Hiroshima with a B-29 flying overhead and simulate dropping an atomic bomb? Why not? There would be those who would have tantrums, fits and "gnashing of teeth" were that to happen.

You mean like a bunch of folks are doing here about this?


Only people, especially those who majored in history, teach and write about history, change history

*rolls eyes*

Gently56
05-22-2012, 03:28 PM
I read the entire posts about this "show" and now I am looking foreward to the event!
That said, I have a bit of a sore spot about the CAF, now the Comemorative air force...I still enjoy they shows and the aircraft, however a few years back they caved in the name of political correctness and pressure. My feeling is the indicated pressure was put on them and instead of at fighting for their heritage they just rolled over to the winds of precieved word related racisim.
To me there is no dishonor in the word "Confederate" but I guess we all have our phobias.

steveinindy
05-22-2012, 04:31 PM
To me there is no dishonor in the word "Confederate" but I guess we all have our phobias.

We had a similar group who got all pissy when one of the WWII living history events I was attending got buzzed by a flight of four scale replica ME109s chased by a flight of three scaled P-51s. Someone went to the news and bitched about the "Nazi insignia" on the side of those planes." The media was about to have a cow over when someone pointed out that of the four ME109 "replicas", three of them were flown by Jewish pilots. That shut them up.

My attitude is that the mission in the case of CAF is more important than the name and honestly 'commemorative' is a more accurate description, so I don't really care what they call them. People are going to gripe and get offended no matter what you do. You only need to look on this forum to see that demonstrated quite well.

Bill Greenwood
05-22-2012, 05:41 PM
"Gently 56", I am a life member of CAF, and like you I was not for a name change. However, I trust the management when they explained that these days the word "Confederate" was associated with slavery. Now you may not see it that way or I may not, but many corporations who were potential contributors, felt that way so much so that they did not want their corporations associated with that name., or to have to justify it to stockholders.
A public group like CAF depends to a large extend on donors of money or services, and I think they were right to preserve the donors. I also think it is really good that the new name is still CAF, just that the C means a different word.
Of course if you have a few spare $billion laying around and want to send a big part to the CAF, they might rename it whatever you want; how about THE GOOD OLE BOYS FLYIN N LYIN CLUB, or some such.
Much more serious to me, is that the group that once meant the great combat airplanes of WW II now lets all sorts of diesel burning and nosewheel junk fly under their banner.

Lindberg
05-23-2012, 09:30 AM
Much more serious to me, is that the group that once meant the great combat airplanes of WW II now lets all sorts of diesel burning and nosewheel junk fly under their banner.

Things like that happen when you become an organization that "caves in" to external pressure. It soon becomes a different organization. In this case CAF became a "slave" to politics. Sadly, this is what we have become.

CAF is free to do what they want. We are still a free country, I think. No one forced me to buy my CAF t-shirt, but it still had Confederate Air Force on it. I don't need another.

steveinindy
05-23-2012, 09:56 AM
Much more serious to me, is that the group that once meant the great combat airplanes of WW II now lets all sorts of diesel burning and nosewheel junk fly under their banner.

I thought the purpose of CAF has always been to keep historic warbirds of all ilks in flyable condition? I heard as a child from one of the senior CAF guys (my dad was talking to him) that the only reason they didn't have any WWI aircraft from day one was because they couldn't find any originals that were flyable.

I think it's rather insulting to the crews who flew....say the Linebacker missions over North Vietnam to call the B-52 (as an example...CAF doesn't have one but bear with me here; I can't think of any non-WWII birds I have seen under the CAF banner) a diesel burning piece of junk. There's not anything less interesting about the aircraft from later conflicts. They may not sound as cool but if one is truly of the "Keep 'em flying" mindset, it really shouldn't matter where the nosewheel is or what fuel the bird uses.

Zack Baughman
05-23-2012, 10:36 AM
I hate to propagate further thread drift, but I happen to know Bill personally - I think I can safely say his statement about "diesel burning and nosewheel junk" was meant to be tongue in cheek. As for me, I fully support the static conservation and preservation, or when possible the restoration and flying, of all "warbird" type aircraft regardless of the era or powerplant. That being said, my true love will always be the WWII prop jobs.

Zack

Bill Greenwood
05-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Steve, my comment on nosewheel and diesel burners was part in jest, but I do believe the original purpose of the CAF was the best, and that purpose, as stated many times back in the old days when I first came into the CAF in 84 was to own, preserve and fly the great military airplanes of WW II. It was not as you believe, that anything goes, at least not in the old days,and back then the CAF still had some WW II combat vets.

Later, perhaps 10 years ago, they went to the lower common denominator and most anything remotely military was considered good enough. How far do you go with this, is a nice Kingair or Lear flown by the Coast Guard good enough? Hey, it's used by the military. How about the air conditioned,auto pilot trainer the call the Texan II?

To me, first of all, WW II was a very major war, we were up against a smart and capable opponent in Germany as well as a dedicated, if nuts, enemy in Japan. And it took the Allies their utmost to win. And it was really a world war, and with freedom and democracy at stake.

Not so with many of the wars since. In Vietnam Iraq , and Afghanistan we are fighting 2nd and 3rd world countries, especially in regard to air power, ( NVA did have some first class anti aircraft guns). Bragging about how our air force defeated Iraq is like Texas bragging about defeating Rice.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the effort or bravery of any soldier, our guys freezing to death in Korea or scared as can be in the jungle of Nam. If a war was judged just by individual effort or sacrifice, then the other side had it too, how about the Japs who refused to come out of island caves and surrender or Germans on a submarine, or the VC and NVA who after defeating the French, then defeated the world's most powerful nation, the US.

I have a friend who flys B-52s, a long lasting and classic warplane. But really, dropping bombs on what may be military targets in Afgan , is not the same is those guys who went into Germany in the 17s and Lancasters, etc. against the top fighter pilots in 109s and 190s, even a few 262s.

By almost any measure, except money spent, what we have as wars these days is thin compared to WW II. Invading a country like Iraq, where half the population probably can't read or write, is not exactly the air power equal of Ali-Frazier, even if they have made the U S pay a bigger price than we thought.

And for me, not only the historical significance, but just the individual appeal of the planes is better in the WWII and thereabouts era. Comparing a Spitfire or Mustang or B-17 to a T-28, F-15 or Huey is like comparing a great French impressionist painting to a piece of modern art that looks like something you might decorate an elevator with.

From a marketing standpoint, I can understand why CAF lowered their standards and went to a broader range of "warbirds" , just like schools now have kids playing soccer often instead of football. But just for me, I wouldn't look out the window to see a soccer game.

steveinindy
05-23-2012, 11:11 AM
It was not as you believe, that anything goes, at least not in the old days,and back then the CAF still had some WW II combat vets.

I seem to recall (and this was about 24 years ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy) that the guy my dad was talking to was a bomber pilot from WWII.


Comparing a Spitfire or Mustang or B-17 to a T-28, F-15 or Huey is like comparing a great French impressionist painting to a piece of modern art that looks like something you might decorate an elevator with.

Oh, I definitely agree with you on that. I was just saying that what I was taught when first introduced to CAF was something different than what you seem to have experienced.


Steve, my comment on nosewheel and diesel burners was part in jest

I didn't think you were being disrespectful on purpose. You're one of the more levelheaded folks on here.


I have a friend who flys B-52s, a long lasting and classic warplane. But really, dropping bombs on what may be military targets in Afgan , is not the same is those guys who went into Germany in the 17s and Lancasters, etc. against the top fighter pilots in 109s and 190s, even a few 262s.

I met a guy who had flown in WWII, Korea and the early part of Nam as a bomber pilot. Started off in B-24s as a "punk lieutenant" and ended his career as a full bird flying 52s in 1970. His comment that he was just as afraid of the Russians/Chinese/Vietnamese in MiGs as he was against any of the Germans he was attacked by. He commented that he always thought the NV pilots never got the credit they deserved for being really talented. He also pointed out that he'd take flak any day over a SAM because "You can fly home with a wing shot off. You can't do that if the first shot takes off the entire tail."

Nowadays, yeah, no comparison since we haven't bombed anyone with a functional fighter command since Viet Nam.


But just for me, I wouldn't look out the window to see a soccer game.

I feel that way about all athletics to be honest. I've never understood the appeal of watching someone else play a game.

Lindberg
05-24-2012, 11:18 AM
I didn't think you were being disrespectful on purpose. You're one of the more levelheaded folks on here.


You talking to me? www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKkMkodo4MI