PDA

View Full Version : Why I won't be back to Oshkosh



John
03-17-2012, 08:32 PM
I have learned that EAA has posted it's museum "no weapons".

Besides opening themselves up to lawsuits by posting if something happens (act 35 gives those who DON'T post immunity from such lawsuits), it is an insult to the law abiding citizens of Wisconsin.

They can claim all sorts of things, probably all of them have the word "safety" in there.

The fact is, I went through training, a background check, paid a $50 fee. Why they think criminals will go through all this, or even obey the sign, is beyond me.

I know that airventure rules have said for years no weapons on premises, but with the passing of act 35, this rule opens them up to all kinds of liability, and presumes criminality on the part of members and the public.

Kyle Boatright
03-17-2012, 08:45 PM
I'm trying to remember the last time I felt threatened by criminals at an air museum.

John
03-17-2012, 09:12 PM
Do you wear a seatbelt? have a spare tire for your car? fire extingusher in your home? Why? Just in case, right, cause you don't plan to be in an accident, have a fire, or a flat tire.

While any museum is probably one of the last places you expect crime, how do you know for sure?

Why treat people like they're going to be criminals? What is wrong with simply carrying a tool for safety?

Sorry EAA, but unless you can be totally responsible for my safety, I'll keep my money.

Kevin O'Halloran
03-17-2012, 09:12 PM
John
I too have a license to carry a concealed weapon.
BUT I do not take it to Oshkosh or sporting events, etc
AND if someone has a sign prohibiting firearms--no problem--its their right to deny it.
It concerns me that by EAA posting a sign, that you would be mad enough to state on a public form that you will not be coming.
You need to ask yourself--If something as small as a sign makes me this angry--should I really be carrying a weapon???
And if you take this to court--do you think they are going to let you take a handgun into the courthouse??
AirAdventure is about airplanes, family and friends , I see no need for a gun----If I did see the need--I wouldn't go.
Kevin

hydroguy2
03-17-2012, 10:14 PM
more room at the museum for me

steveinindy
03-17-2012, 10:57 PM
Bingo. Last thing we need is someone who is prone to irrational responses to perceived slights and operates on misguided notions about the right to carry on private property. You will not be missed.

steveinindy
03-17-2012, 11:04 PM
Do you wear a seatbelt? have a spare tire for your car? fire extingusher in your home? Why? Just in case, right, cause you don't plan to be in an accident, have a fire, or a flat tire. While any museum is probably one of the last places you expect crime, how do you know for sure? Why treat people like they're going to be criminals? What is wrong with simply carrying a tool for safety? Sorry EAA, but unless you can be totally responsible for my safety, I'll keep my money.Paranoid much? I am more concerned about being run over by Patty Wagstaff during one of her drunk driving demonstrations than being assaulted, robbed, murdered or anything else that would warrant use of deadly force. Your attitude is why- as someone who likes to shoot and hunt- I think a psych evaluation should be required right along with the background check.

Bill
03-17-2012, 11:49 PM
We will not miss you next we go to Airventure.

Frank Giger
03-18-2012, 12:28 AM
I agree with John.

Since learning the museum isn't "clothing optional" I too have drawn a line in the sand.

steveinindy
03-18-2012, 12:56 AM
*snorts* well played Frank. LMAO

Sirota
03-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Frank, If the museum was clothihing optional; what you you be using to draw the line in the sand with? ;)

Seriously, what do you need to be armed in the museum for? Here in Arizona there's a political flight to allow guns in bars and schools! I'm a registered, card carrying, conservative, but everyone carrying guns is nuts.

martymayes
03-18-2012, 03:53 PM
There are warbirds in the museum ya know.....:P.

Bill Greenwood
03-18-2012, 03:58 PM
John, do you really feel that insecure without carrying a gun everywhere you go?

One of the things I like about the week at EAA is that it feels like a group of friends in a small town or at least the way a small town used to be or ought to be.
In almost 30 years of going to EAA, I have never seen any violence on the site among people, never a fight or a robbery, never saw any cop draw a gun, never saw anyone hit or threaten anyone. The most I have ever seen is a few raised voices, and one time three years ago I saw a Father disgrace himself by yelling at the top of his voice at his young Son while poking him in the chest. I almost said something to the man trying to bully the boy, but thought better of it and he calmed down. Having the love and respect of a son or daughter is a precious thing, maybe the dad one day will realize it when it is too late. Anyway, that was so out of character for EAA that it stands out in my mind.

I was a hunter and gun owner when I was growing up and one of my Sons is a gun owner and target shooter now; but he doesn't bring his guns to EAA.

There are a lot of other places, such as gun shows or hunting areas where you can join with others who share your hobby. Do you take your gun to church, if you go?

Please don't bring it to EAA, we are about airplanes and good times, not violence and paranoia.

Racegunz
03-18-2012, 07:03 PM
Hmmmm, I have to say the lack of respect for the second ammendment here is disurbing, so anyone who carries a firearm is paranoid? or needs a psyche eval? While I respect the private property rights of the EAA and their anti-firearm views, I feel the responses here again lead me to believe I have little in common with "todays aviator" I for one applaud the man for standing up for what he believes in, people with integrity used to do that often, but that was some time ago.

martymayes
03-18-2012, 07:23 PM
Hmmmm, I have to say the lack of respect for the second ammendment here is disurbing, so anyone who carries a firearm is paranoid? or needs a psyche eval?

I think most are only wondering why one chooses to be completely inflexible toward those that don't share his opinion. The buzz word for that is "intolerant."

John
03-18-2012, 07:36 PM
Do you not see the irony? You guys like the EAA for standing up for you (fighting user fees and various restrictions), but when the same organization is willing to deny you your rights, that's OK with you?

Have a good time.

Kyle Boatright
03-18-2012, 08:03 PM
Do you not see the irony? You guys like the EAA for standing up for you (fighting user fees and various restrictions), but when the same organization is willing to deny you your rights, that's OK with you?

Have a good time.

The EAA is exercising its right as a private entity to set conditions for the use of its facilities. That's the same thing you would do if I came to your house - set terms and conditions. Maybe you wouldn't want me to smoke (not that I do) if I visited your house. That wouldn't be taking away my rights, that would be asserting your right as a homeowner.

martymayes
03-18-2012, 08:22 PM
Do you not see the irony? You guys like the EAA for standing up for you (fighting user fees and various restrictions), but when the same organization is willing to deny you your rights, that's OK with you?

Have a good time.

I don't think they are trying to deny anyone their rights. They are simply establishing requirements to enter their property. I do the same. Sorry you are offended by that.

Tom Downey
03-18-2012, 08:43 PM
Why would you want a gun on campus? why would you want a responsible gun carrier at the scene when the nut job starts a killing spree?
You are safer with me than with out me.
Remember, when there are no responsible gun owners, to protect you, there will be anarchy.
IT normally takes a nut job 3 seconds to pull a gun and start shooting, it requires 10-15 minutes for the police to get there.

Tom Downey
03-18-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't think they are trying to deny anyone their rights. They are simply establishing requirements to enter their property. I do the same. Sorry you are offended by that.

If you really believe that I'd like you to place a sign in your yard, " this home is unarmed"

martymayes
03-18-2012, 09:03 PM
If you really believe that I'd like you to place a sign in your yard, " this home is unarmed"

Why would I do that? I never said I didn't have a gun.

I said if you come to my house, you follow my rules. I guess if you don't want to follow my rules you storm off and complain on a message board that I am denying you of your rights.

Green Goggles
03-18-2012, 09:25 PM
I wasn't aware of this until now. What prompted EAA to make this decision?
Anyone have a link to a news story or press release?


While I am disappointed in the decision and share the OP's feelings, it won't stop me from enjoying AirVenture and the museum.

Hangar10
03-18-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm with ya Goggles... disappointed.

While it is EAA's right to set conditions or policies, my second favorite organization (EAA) just opposed the position of my favorite organization (NRA). As someone stated earlier, AirVenture and the museum are generally friendly places... people carrying concealed (been happening for years) have not had an impact on anyone's ability to enjoy themselves. But, they have now taken a position that is unfriendly to a large percentage of their members. Why was this necessary?

At this point I'm still planning to attend our convention, but with the parking issues that have run off many of our friends and now this anti-gun position... well, it just doesn't sit well with some.

This policy does absolutely nothing to deter criminal intent... instead, it says to law abiding gun owners, "hey, you are welcome here, but your dirty filthy gun is not." What are they going to do with the WWII encampment down at Warbirds? Will they also be prohibited from carrying or displaying firearms? If not, what makes them more qualified or capable to be among the crowd as a trained and responsible citizen (or veteran)?

Anyhow, for those that support our right to bear arms, this is not the sort of thing we like to see.

Bill Greenwood
03-18-2012, 10:53 PM
Mark, the idea that a "trained" gun carrier is synonymous with 'responsible" is nonsense.
The military vet who just murdered 16 in Afghan was highly trained, a sniper specialist on his 4th tour. Just like the guy who blew up the Muir federal bldg. or the soldiers who shot unarmed students at Kent State back in the 70s.Or theracist nut in Florida who just shot the unarmed kid in the chest. When I was in college at Texas in 1967, a well trained former Marine marksman shot 50 people on campus.The problem is not their ability to use a gun, it is what happens when someone goes off the deep end and has a gun handy.

Why not take your guns to your the meetings of "your favorite org, NRA" and do whatever you want to do with them there; and leave the majority of the rest of us in EAA and fun aviation to enjoy ourselves in peace?

And it is not just adults like myself who are at EAA or the museum, there are children there and I don't think most Mothers would want their kids to play at a local park for instance where men were carrying guns.

Frank Giger
03-18-2012, 11:11 PM
I'm a concealed weapons carrier, a veteran, and all around American Joe that bleeds Republican Red, which means I'm not only a 2nd Amendment guy but a Property Rights guy as well.

It's their museum and they can make the rules - and that's a right I'll defend as much as I will responsible firearm ownership.

I'll leave the armed response at a public venue to the police officers on hand and just make sure there are some fat people around me to use as cover until they do.

Realistically, the notion of a person inside a large crowd doing anything with a concealed weapon is ludicrous. In the event of a shooting your first priority is to keep from being trampled, the second to find a suitable egress, and third to execute the escape.

Naturally they'd find me cowering in the cockpit of a very cool display aircraft, strapped in and making engine noises.

Hangar10
03-18-2012, 11:24 PM
Hey Bill, I never said that "trained" suggested "responsible"... so you can keep your "nonsense" to yourself.

As for my NRA meetings... I do take my guns, and we do indeed do whatever we want, which is all lawful and educational. You mention that I should leave you and the majority of EAA to have fun and enjoy yourself in peace... what makes you think I would wish for anything else? Because I believe in personal defense? Sure sounds like you have us law abiding gun owners figured out... yes, law abiding... not the criminals or nut jobs that you describe in your post.

You speak of the museum as if I can't relate to the kind of people there... I've been there too, right along with my wife and 7 year old son. In years past we haven't been concerned in the least about people carrying guns there... in fact, we assumed that others likely were... it just doesn't bother us the way it apparently bothers you.

As for children playing in parks where men carry guns... in any state where men (and women) are allowed to protect themselves, which is everywhere in this country except for the Land of Lincoln... there ARE people there with guns.

You apparently have a strong opinion in opposition to the right to keep and bear arms... some of us have the same strong feelings in favor of that concept. It's alright, we just disagree, but it certainly doesn't make us bad guys, or any more criminal than you.

Ozzie
03-19-2012, 02:53 AM
As an Australian that has traveled to AV on a couple of occasions it never crossed my mind about anyone around me carrying a concealed weapon. Be it in the museum or grounds. (Driving around Chicago was another matter.) Some interesting laws you have there. Being unarmed i just gotta hope you 'good 'ol boys' keep it together. I'd hate to get caught in the crossfire. Here in Australia gun ownership is tightly controlled. We used to enjoy our guns just like you until the Port Arthur mass shooting. I think we held the record there for a while. After that a Govenment mandatory buy back. Got to have a good reason to have one these days and then most get stolen. The buy back did not work it. Just gave the criminals, bikies and our middle eastern immigrants more firepower. So de arming the population would have the same result as prohibition, may as well keep them.
I don't really see what the fuss is all about by asking people not to bring their weapon(s) into a puplic place and it being posted so. This sort of thing has been going on since the wild west days. In the old western movies you would see signs like that at some of the better saloons or even in some towns. Enjoy your rights and freedoms. You have more than i have.
Ozzie

Hal Bryan
03-19-2012, 07:15 AM
Hi guys - I'm waiting for some clarification from our HR guy to make sure we can set the record straight about EAA policy. However, what some of you may not know is that the state of Wisconsin has only allowed concealed carry starting as of November 11, 2011. Prior to that point, concealed weapons (presumably with the exception of Law Enforcement) would not have been allowed in the Museum or on the convention grounds because they weren't legal anywhere in the state.

As I said, when I have some clarification of the policy, I'll share that, but I thought it was important to point this out.

In the meantime ... for the most part, everyone's being pretty polite in discussing a potentially inflammatory topic, but a couple of posts have wandered over the line. Please remember to keep it civil and on topic.

Thanks!

Wilfred
03-19-2012, 07:53 AM
I am not concerned about the gun issue. The reason I am still "burned" about the last time I flew into AV is that after landing long at the request of the tower, I attempted to taxi from 36L onto the grass when a flagman waved me back onto the blacktop and up to some wooden barricades and signaled me to stop while he moved the barricade and waved me through. He then stopped me and came up the airplane and REALLY gave me hell for not going onto the grass. I did what he wanted me to do then he gave me a chewing out for doing what he wanted me to do. I still wonder if the guy was drunk or high on something. I filed a formal complaint with EAA and never heard anything. A real bummer; just one jerk but it still irritates me.

Aaron Novak
03-19-2012, 08:14 AM
Here in WI, seeing the " no weapons allowed" signs is common. Bars, grocery stores, schools, resturants, workplaces etc etc, basicly every building except your own house. Try not to get so worked up over the law abiding rules someone makes about THEIR property, on which you are not forced to be.

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 09:08 AM
Here in WI, seeing the " no weapons allowed" signs is common. Bars, grocery stores, schools, resturants, workplaces etc etc, basicly every building except your own house. Try not to get so worked up over the law abiding rules someone makes about THEIR property, on which you are not forced to be.

I think everyone is quite clear on the fact that private entities, whether it be an individual or an organization, are well within their rights to establish rules based upon their beliefs. Perfectly fine, and indeed no one is forced to participate in any way. But... EAA includes people from all parts of the country, from all backgrounds, and all disciplines, and all religions, etc. Up until this point, they (we, the EAA) have remained neutral on this incredibly hot button political issue. Many apparently see it as a non-issue... others see it as one of their TOP issues... either school of thought is fine, which is what makes America great. But, when a "line in the sand" is drawn, it will cause some people to sit up and take notice.

On one side we have people who get all worked up at the very thought of a firearm... on the other we have people who actually know the statistics where lawful carry is concerned and also know that it is extremely uncommon that a person who goes through the trouble to receive training, pay fees (taxes), go through background checks, send in photos, fingerprints, etc... would ever end up using a firearm to commit a crime.

Anyhow, that is where the rub is... if EAA is going to tell it's law abiding members that they are not allowed to protect themselves, and in fact, that they can not be trusted with their firearms... well, it just won't go over well with a good percentage of the group. Is it that everyone carries their guns around? Not necessarily... rather it is the thought that we apparently can't even if we wanted to because EAA has picked a side... the wrong side in many people's eyes. Again, the fact remains that this position will do NOTHING to deter anyone who intends to commit a crime... nothing.

While we are at it, we might as well ban those "dangerous" little airplanes and those enormous RVs that populate the grounds... they are potentially FAR more dangerous than a man with a gun, right? Yes... right. :rollseyes:

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 09:22 AM
One more thing... where do most shooting sprees occur? That's right... in these "gun free" zones... banks (Hollywood and Miami come to mind), post offices, court houses (St. Louis, MO... Beaumont, TX, etc.), universities and schools (many examples here, but VA Tech comes to mind), etc. Some have had law enforcement present (Gabrielle Giffords event), but that didn't stop that crazy shooter. On the other hand, I can cite numerous occasions where law abiding armed citizens have defended themselves and saved not only their own lives, but the lives of countless others.

Why would this be? Simply put... the cowardly screwballs that intend to harm others know that the law abiding citizens are unarmed in these areas. Where do shootings NOT occur? Gun shows. Seems that if guns and gun people were the primary factors in shootings that we would have them happening all the time here in Tulsa, where we have at least one gun show every month, and the largest show in the world twice a year. Again, the facts seem to get in the way of the anti-gun crowd... sorry EAA, this is one of those decisions that is probably going to hurt a little. No, not because we can't carry into the museum, but because you just took an anti-gun stance, which was totally unnecessary.

Crazy that we are having this debate on the EAA forums... not at all what I expected we would be talking about this week.

Mike Switzer
03-19-2012, 09:51 AM
I don't have the time to research the minutiae of the new WI concealed carry law, but in most states there is no legal penalty for ignoring a "No Weapons" sign put up by a property owner, and if you are truly carrying concealed, who will know? (Of course many states have written into state law certain places where you MAY NOT carry, such as schools, churches, bars, etc, so read the fine print in the state law)

I am always amused when I am at the local hospital, where there are very large "No Weapons" and "No Cell Phone Usage" signs and plainclothes detectives are always walking in & out with not very well concealed weapons, talking on their cell phones. :)

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 09:58 AM
You are absolutely right Mike... and many people do ignore such requests knowing that there is no chance of criminal prosecution. Some companies have policies that prohibit their employees from protecting themselves (even down here in the wild west), but some choose to ignore those requests as well. A properly concealed weapon is exactly that... concealed and undetectable.

It's just the principal of the matter, and the fact that EAA felt the need to take a position.

Aaron Novak
03-19-2012, 10:19 AM
Another point to keep in mind here guys, is that the grounds is not just EAA, its Winnebago County property, and some of it also Federally controlled. EAA rents the grounds for the convention, it does not own it. And as an FYI, firearms have never been allowed on airport property ( Meaning WRA ) unless carried by law enforcement.

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 10:37 AM
Good point Aaron. If that is the case, then I can see where we have no choice based on federal regulations. Hopefully that is what this is all about, but the museum too?

Aaron Novak
03-19-2012, 10:52 AM
Good point Aaron. If that is the case, then I can see where we have no choice based on federal regulations. Hopefully that is what this is all about, but the museum too?

Well,
Every museum here in town does not allow firearms inside, I dont see why this one would be special? Keep in mind that while you guys are here for a week, others of us are here year round, and so of course the rules, regulations and general "atmosphere" will tend to follow trends in OUR area, not yours. This isnt to say one area is better than another, just different.

rwanttaja
03-19-2012, 10:59 AM
I agree with John.

Since learning the museum isn't "clothing optional" I too have drawn a line in the sand.
Dare I ask...with what? :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 11:13 AM
Well,
Every museum here in town does not allow firearms inside, I dont see why this one would be special? Keep in mind that while you guys are here for a week, others of us are here year round, and so of course the rules, regulations and general "atmosphere" will tend to follow trends in OUR area, not yours. This isnt to say one area is better than another, just different.

Yes, different indeed, but if this decision was made by our organization... the organization the we support and send money to, and in some cases work hard for... well, it becomes a little more difficult to stay motivated with an organization that is in opposition to another organization that some of us also send money to and work hard for. They could well be in complete opposition.

Hope we get some clarification on this issue. Our meeting is tonight and I know that there are several already talking about this thread.

Bill Greenwood
03-19-2012, 11:33 AM
Mark, you say "EAA is telling its members that they are not allowed to protect themselves".<br>
First what and who is it that you think that you need to protect yourself against at EAA or the EAA museum. This ain't south Philly at night or a Miami strip club at closing time.<br>
Can you give us the serious or violent crime rate for EAA, that would necessitate you having to protect yourself? In my 30 years experience it is the safest place in the country, not counting airplane accidents.<br> I have had lots of thoughts in many moments in many places at EAA over the 30 years, but never had one that, gosh I wish I had a gun and could shoot some of these people!
<br>
Next, just like that EAA doesn't allow alcohol, but you can drink yourself into a stupor elsewhere, it's all legal. And you can go to your NRA meeting or wherever else you feel you need to be armed and do so, all legal.<br>
<br>
I am really glad that I live in a place where most people would rather ski than shoot and where they don't feel the need to carry guns, and it is not what turns them on. <br>
I'd hate to wake up in the morning with the idea that someone, violent and armed was out to get me and I had be ready for a gun fight.<br>
<br>
I wonder if you have ever seen anyone shot, up close and personal?: It's not a nice thing, not clean and heroic like in the old westerns. It has been decades since the summer of 1967 in Austin, but I can still see the pregnant lady lying on the hot pavement in a pool of blood with a rifle bullet through her back and unborn child.&nbsp;

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 12:19 PM
Bill, I don't think that I have to protect myself from anything at EAA or the museum, and I've never felt threatened in any way while at our convention, but the fact is, none of us knows when or where something may happen. You are really missing the point, and not making the proper connection... it is a matter of principal, and whether or not EAA has taken a position in this matter... not simply whether or not we can carry into the museum. If our organization is playing politics with an issue that is very near and dear to some of us, there is likely to be some backlash. You don't understand that? Fine, it's not necessary that you do.

As for the differences in where we live... I don't think people here feel that they NEED to carry a gun... in fact, we have pretty decent crime statistics. Again, the concept escapes your grasp. I don't wake up in the morning with the idea that someone violent and armed is out to get me... but I do arm myself because I enjoy exercising my rights, and I want a fighting chance if I'm approached by some whacked out meth head or car jacker. You can't relate to that? Ok, fine! Don't carry, and don't bother to comment on my desire to do so... we obviously disagree.

Have I ever seen anyone shot... well Bill, I served in the US Army as an Infantry Paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne Division and Southern European Task Force. I've been all over the world and witnessed scenes much more disturbing than you describe... so yeah, for what it's worth, I've experienced my share of indecency.

How about you try having a rational conversation instead of suggesting that people that don't live exactly like you might be less capable of making sound decisions. You sound highly intolorant in your replys on this matter... speaks volumes.

I'll ask you a similar question... of all the places that people carry guns, which is almost everywhere nowadays, are these crazy people regularly pulling their guns on you? What is your big hang up with law abiding people carrying guns?

In the words of the great Sgt. Hulka...

Sgt. Hulka: One of these people may save your life one day!
John Winger: Then again... maybe we wont.

Kevin O'Halloran
03-19-2012, 01:48 PM
Mark
this is coming from another Red neck , gun carrying Oklahoman
If EAA did NOT put up the sign--and someone did get shot--the lawyers would have a field day !!!
PLUS--the last place I want to have to pull out my gun is in a big crowd
Its NOT a insult for someone telling you they don't want guns on their property--its just their right--please respect it.
AND--since most of AirAdventure is on federal land ( airport) and guns are not allowed there--its just easier to just make the whole area the same.
Lets stop talking about this or some nut case fed is going to start making us go through metal detectors when we go through the main gate .
Kevin

Aaron Novak
03-19-2012, 01:54 PM
Mark,
EAA not only has its membership abroad, it also has its year round presence in OUR community. You go to someone elses country, state or county, you play by their rules. Or in other words, please respect the wishes of the people you are VISITING. I can bet you that 8 out of 10 board members are hunters of some kind, so you can be rest assured that its not some anti-gun conspiracy, I mean it is Wisconsin. Maybe another way to look at it is this, if the community that a business is part of as a whole wishes to have places like museums gun free, why should they buck the community to please a percentage of outside visitors that come for a week? Remember, you are a GUEST of our community, please act as such in all manners.

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 02:14 PM
Kevin, a couple of points...

1. I'm not exactly sure on the Wisconsin carry laws, but if they are anything like most of the laws that have been passed in the majority of the country (i.e. make my day laws), the lawyers would NOT be having a field day if someone were acting in a legal manner to defend themselves. Most defense laws (like Oklahoma's Self Defense Act) side in favor of the victims nowadays in order to protect them from senseless lawsuits when they have been required to defend themselves... so let's not perpuate that BS... it's simply not true.

2. I don't want to "pull out my gun" at all... and I really don't expect that I would ever wish I had a gun on me at Oshkosh... again, the point is being missed.

3. You speak of rights... I am respecting EAA's rights, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with their decisions. I am free to choose my associations based on whatever criteria I deem important to me.

4. As for federal land... alright, let's hear it if that is the case. Like I've already stated, it's my hope that EAA's hand was forced in the matter and NOT that they have taken a side on this issue.

Aaron... I understand that... and I've visited plenty of countries and had to abide by their rules. I lived in a foreign country for three years. Again, you guys are missing the bigger point. I'm not saying that I don't respect EAA's ability to form their own opinion and make decisions as they see fit... but as a dues paying member and active supporter, I too am allowed to assess my afiliation with any organization I am associated with, AND speak out about it if I disagree. I think that is what the entire thread was about... disappointment with EAA if they chose to say "no-guns" without provocation. I never suggested a conspiracy of any kind... again, it is just an issue that I and other members are concerned about. Why don't you guys seem to want to respect that?

Speaking of your community... it falls within the borders of the United States and the state of Wisconsin, which has right to carry laws in place... I think I am respecting the wishes of your community, state and our country.

Seems that you guys would just have us shut up and go away... don't voice our opposition... why, because it is YOUR community and YOUR backyard? It is OUR organization! Again, real tolorant of everyone's views.

malexander
03-19-2012, 02:32 PM
If it's concealed, who knows? There's 5 pages of hype here telling the feds we need to be controlled.
I obtained my CCL earlier this year, I never realized just how many people do carry. It's my understanding that if you do get "caught" in a place that is posted "no firearms", it's a trespassing offense. The only way to get caught, if it's concealed, is to need it. Then I wouldn't care one iota about getting caught and fined for trespassing, at least I may have a better chance of surviving to pay the fine.

Aaron Novak
03-19-2012, 02:34 PM
Mark,
I think we are all tolerant to some degree. Trust me the point has not been missed, however you are trying to merge political clubs, and hobby clubs. True its OUR organization, however the physical location is in Oshkosh. Notice they arent saying you cant carry at your chapter meeting, only at THEIR physical location in Oshkosh.

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 02:41 PM
If it's concealed, who knows? There's 5 pages of hype here telling the feds we need to be controlled.
I obtained my CCL earlier this year, I never realized just how many people do carry. It's my understanding that if you do get "caught" in a place that is posted "no firearms", it's a trespassing offense. The only way to get caught, if it's concealed, is to need it. Then I wouldn't care one iota about getting caught and fined for trespassing, at least I may have a better chance of surviving to pay the fine.

I'm in full agreement with that malexander... but again, I'd like to know where this decision came from. If EAA is taking a position against our right to carry, I would just like to know that. If they are forced to post sineage due to the proximety to the airport, I would like to know that too. It makes a difference to me.

Hangar10
03-19-2012, 02:47 PM
Mark,
I think we are all tolerant to some degree. Trust me the point has not been missed, however you are trying to merge political clubs, and hobby clubs. True its OUR organization, however the physical location is in Oshkosh. Notice they arent saying you cant carry at your chapter meeting, only at THEIR physical location in Oshkosh.

Aaron, I'm fully aware they aren't saying that we can't carry at our chapter meeting... that wouldn't work anyway as they have no jurisdiction here. And no, I am not trying to merge political clubs with hobby clubs. As I've stated, I'm simply interested in knowing if EAA has taken a position against our right to carry, or if they were required to. If that is seen as mixing clubs, well, no... it's one in the same as far as I'm concerned. I don't support organizations that infringe on the 2nd Amendment... period.

MEdwards
03-19-2012, 03:16 PM
I am respecting EAA's rights, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with their decisions.I respect EAA's rights too. And I don't agree with some of their decisions. But I do agree with this one. That's my right, too.

Mike Switzer
03-19-2012, 03:37 PM
since most of AirAdventure is on federal land ( airport) and guns are not allowed there

I really doubt if this is 100% true - have you ever seen what goes in the baggage compartments of private planes during hunting season? Again, I don't know the specifics of Wisconsin law, but I have been to several airports where people legally authorized to carry concealed were doing so both on the ramp & in the hangar area, and airport management & security were aware of it. One of these was a joint use military/civilian field that was federally owned.

Jim Clark
03-19-2012, 07:24 PM
I agree with John.Since learning the museum isn't "clothing optional" I too have drawn a line in the sand.Now THAT would keep me away. Now I just have to get that picture out of my head.

martymayes
03-19-2012, 08:02 PM
I really doubt if this is 100% true - have you ever seen what goes in the baggage compartments of private planes during hunting season?


Doesn't have to be a private plane. You can carry a gun on an airliner as long as it's checked.

FlyingRon
03-20-2012, 07:45 AM
Doesn't have to be a private plane. You can carry a gun on an airliner as long as it's checked.

And you comply with the other (casing, declaratio) requirements and you are NOT in a place that bars such (like NYC).

Jim Heffelfinger
03-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Can' t believe this thread has 6 pages... !!!

Hangar10
03-22-2012, 12:52 PM
Believe it! LOL!

Bill Greenwood
03-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Mark, do you think the parents of the unarmed 17 year old boy that was shot and killed in Sanford, Florida, got a good laugh out of it?

What's the NRA positon on that, maybe the kid should have been carrying his own gun?

Hangar10
03-22-2012, 04:13 PM
Bill, I'm not going to have this debate with you. You are obviously incapable of grasping my point, which was simply that it was my hope that EAA had not taken an anti-gun position. You don't like guns, or gun people, or toy guns, or finger guns, or whatever the case may be... fine. That doesn't mean that I have to answer for every nut job that commits a crime involving a gun.

Is it my fault that the kid in FL was shot and killed? Did my gun do it? What is your point? Are you going to accuse me of not knowing what it's like again? Let me just save you the effort and explain to you that my brother-in-law was killed by a gun... shot in the head... it was an accident. The same way that cars have accidents, airplanes have accidents, boats have accidents, and a variety of other methods that we as human beings injure or kill ourselves or each other every day... what can I say, we live in an imperfect world.

I'm not really looking to get banned from the list, so I'll not completely flame you with the facts. My point has been stated, and as a dues paying member of this organization I feel that I have a legitimate concern. I don't have to justify to you or anyone else my porpose or desire to own or carry guns. Have a good day!

Hal Bryan
03-22-2012, 07:11 PM
Guys, this thread was about someone raising specific questions about an apparent policy decision by EAA and I still owe you some follow up on that, I haven't forgotten. The debate, while spirited, was reasonable when it was focused on "should they or shouldn't they", but now it's turned into a bunch of noise about gun ownership, some tragic events, and yet more arguing back and forth.

Enough is enough - this thread is closed.

Hal Bryan
03-23-2012, 01:22 PM
Hi everyone - Here's what I learned after talking to some key people here:

EAA and AirVenture have always had a policy of no firearms allowed on the grounds. There is no change to that long-standing policy. Under the new Wisconsin concealed-carry law, those facilities and events with such a policy must now post it.

- Hal