PDA

View Full Version : A fool and His Dream



Norman Langlois
03-01-2012, 02:55 PM
Building a plane from scratch.
We have all heard this on TV do not try this from home we are professionals. Well were does that leave people like me.I have always dreamed of flying and never had the money to do it.I will never have even now.With but one accept ion. That is to build my own plane. Not being an aeronautical engineer. That would likely mean I must adhere to someone else s design plan. So does that mean I am foolish to attempt the whole thing on my own ? I suppose in the eyes of of at-least some I am.
I had skills many builders have only part of . I didn't like the status of the available plan form.I think I can do better and I also think I may well have done better.
The Ultra light Plan form is the only path I would choose .

I still feel very humbled and meek about what I have done and also unsure. Taking as much care to educate myself as I went along. Still left me uncomfortable to speak with those that know more than I.As well as to confront them with new Ideas. I had one good Mentor in Mark Stull .He was a good source and a comfort to move along with my plan form. He is painfully missed. His invaluable input filled the void where others feared to go .I felt from the beginning that getting information carried liability and sealed the lips of many.Its to bad,but thats the way it is these days.

The main tool I used to achieve my end was to buy a set of plans. Even though I did not build that plane I used the example to define and place . The rest is an evolution of trial and error parts constructed and cast away not because of failure. mostly because being to heavy. The struggle to build light and stay stronger than the typical plan form was and is my goal still.I explored none typical methods .The tube and cable was being avoided . I looked for ways to construct with sheet aluminum and ways to lighten and use geometry to gain an edge on the typical UL plan form

I searched for plans I evaluated the appearances always found the typical UL to be a bit short coming .Even as I found out later that cable make all the difference. At the beginning they did not look safe to me. I concluded that if that were true for me it was also true for the general public,even reflecting the displeasure of general aviation pilots to be less that acceptable to fly.

I set to make a difference in this area, to build a more acceptable plan form .that the GA and the general public would not look upon as unfavorable .
Who am I to be the one to make this happen? Maybe it needs to be someone who doesn't know not to go there .Someone that thinks outside the box. and even though short on funds one that has no limitations. Why is this because I build machines and I can make virtually any metal parts.Machined , formed ,welded As well as machinery to make it happen. that's why the evolution began .I needed no one to say for a plane, no way I m not going to be held liable. I had not only the skills but the work place that allowed me access to the machinery to build my own machinery. As well as the plane.

And so after 7 years I have a plane.I spent the first year making the most crucial item to my plan form this was a roll forming machine. It takes coil aluminum and roll forms it into channel. after that I had to develop other forming tools to work the channel. Originally I intended only to use this channel for ribs my latest work has shown me much more is possible. Another tool was a pressure flare die. It allows deep ashtray like flare that enhances the diaphragms of the triangle mono spar and fuselage boom . The triangle mono spar is the limb I dared to go out on if I may. I will say it is and isn't. I used it wrong on this first plane.A hint that maybe. The spars failing now is resolved with the single flying wire per side it has a 4G plus .The V-tail was an effort to reduce weight one of the only things so far that I consider a failure . the other was an attempt to make the rear floats steerable. On my last taxi Murphy's law came into play and an excess length of strapping that holds the fuel tank found its way into the cable pulley for that steering. With pulley stuck in an extreme turn I had to shut down the engine and struggle to free the system restart and limp back to the launch. With the float system being redesigned it was eliminated turned out to be a substantial weight saving with the float rebuild.

A new tail was designed a horizontal stabilator was chosen . Because I had the design and method to support it,cantilever to boot,and Its lighter than you would believe.
Spring will be here soon. A return to the testing and eventually flight.

For any that never fallowed my build blog in the EAA. forums This is also a huge hurdle.Not yet knowing how to fly
I began my dream build the year before the end of the UL training exemption was to end. For financial reasons I avoided the expenditure to learn to fly expecting that some alternative would be in place by the time I was finished.

That has not come to pass I have had some good advise and I have taken it. being self taught is not the best way to go even with the books. I suppose though i am not the only one take to the sky in this way.

I pose to all of you Am I foolish are any who would dare . ? I personally see any one who sits on a motor cycle as a fool who risks more than I But that's just my view point.

Regards a fool and his dream designer builder of Norms flying boat

Bill Berson
03-01-2012, 05:33 PM
I would not say that someone building an original ultralight is a fool.
But doing the test flight without flight training probably is foolish, in my opinion.
I built a homemade hang-glider (Lambie Hang Loose) as a teenager. On the first flight I was stunned and froze and forgot to do the needed weight-shifting for control, I was just "hanging on". Fortunately, I was only about 20- 30 feet and the thing came down like a parachute and I was not injured. That was end of hang gliding for me, I got some flight training and moved on to light airplanes.

steveinindy
03-02-2012, 02:26 AM
But doing the test flight without flight training probably is foolish, in my opinion.

I would go a step further and say flying without training (let along flight testing without it) is pretty close to the dumbest thing a person can do in aviation and perhaps is almost borderline suicidal. As you (Bill) pointed out, test flying without an idea of the basics of flying an aircraft that has been proven to be stable and easy to handle is a good way to find yourself in a predicament that causes the "deer in the headlights" reaction. Norm, get some flight training first. In an ultralight, it's not that expensive and it will pay huge dividends not only in terms of safety but also it will help you rationalize choices that have to be made during the design and construction of an aircraft. It can also help you to have the insight necessary to pick up when something just isn't "right" during the construction. Money spent on training is seldom ever wasted so long as one approaches it with an open mind and a willingness to learn.

rosiejerryrosie
03-02-2012, 08:05 AM
Norm - I've been following your saga with admiration. You have proceeded carefully and logically, and have produced some work that approaches artistry. But, If you are planning to test fly your creation without some flight training, I fear you have departed from your basic good sense. I made my first flight without any training BUT, luckily I made it in Microsoft Flight Simulator and all was made well by "Restarting" after the crash. That choice is not available in the real world. PLEASE GET SOME FLIGHT TRAINING!!

Norman Langlois
03-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Thank you ,All three of you. You are exactly right. I do not debate any of the commentary.
I have little to offer in defense of my intent to fly as my own test pilot with so little. Foolish at least. If I am, so were the Wright Bro's. That is not the real point here anyway.
There are threads in the Oshkosh 365 forums that covered most of what I could reflect on.
If I have anything I have thousands of hours in simulation. But no one gives credit to that. What good would flying anything that was not close to what I built.w
Would it be any better than a simulation. If its not the same its not any more acceptable?There are plenty of threads that comment on the unacceptability of dissimilar aircraft.
None of what I say will make it acceptable. I have little choice but to proceed with extreme caution. I do not like the position I am in . It just is.
Let the comments above be an example to anyone that thinks they can ,Even if you build a kit its still needs test flying. If you are not a pilot with the skills of a test pilot your in another boat but its not any safer.

steveinindy
03-03-2012, 12:30 AM
If I am, so were the Wright Bro's.

Not really. They learned through flying gliders and a lot of experimentation as well as talking with folks who had tried and failed (and were lucky enough to live to talk about it). Saying they went in cold is a bit misleading.


If you are not a pilot with the skills of a test pilot your in another boat but its not any safer.

To a certain degree. However, assuming you didn't botch the build and whomever designed it did their calculations correct, it should be flyable in a manner that a pilot of average skill can handle.


If I have anything I have thousands of hours in simulation. But no one gives credit to that. What good would flying anything that was not close to what I built.

The same argument could be made for what difference did Sully's experience with gliders far lighter than a heavily loaded Airbus with two goose-filled engines make regarding the ditching in the Hudson. Unless you're building something truly outlandish, almost any experience would be beneficial. Most airplanes of a similar weight, horsepower and configuration (pusher vs. tractor, canard vs. traditional layout, etc) will handle reasonably similarly. It's why we don't have to get type rated from aircraft to aircraft as GA pilots (although there are a few I would argue probably should mandate a type rating because of their safety records in the hands on under-qualified pilots).

Bill Berson
03-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Simulators do help. I was able to reduce the time needed for helicopter training with simulation at home first. But I would have crashed the helicopter without additional proper instruction.
Just get 5 hours of airplane dual instruction or enough to land the airplane comfortably. Then you will have learned what simulation did not teach. There will probably be something you cannot do well enough on the first lesson and the instructor can take the controls.

If you can afford to build an aircraft and a computer, why not 5 hours of dual instruction? A pilot certificate is not needed, but the skills are needed.

Bill

Norman Langlois
03-03-2012, 03:51 PM
I will make the effort Bill.
Steve a note to you. Building is past tense The aircraft is built. I have been modifying the impinage to a more traditional. the other thing is its a seaplane without wheels. My airfield of sorts is wide and uninhibited.and five miles long.
Secondly I do have a flight instructor as an adviser. So I have all the advise I can ask for . The only problem is no dual instruction available.
The simulation devise I use is more sophisticated than a desktop joystick.
Last seasons taxi runs were all ruder control issue and a poor rear float system. Taxi tests will resume I will take it up to ground effect flight on my own in stages.This will of course include many stages of land backs.All of these tests will be carefully evaluated for adverse effects.The plane being a pusher will improve with speed according to the book so if it handles better than last year as I expect it will You all may be surprised . I will evaluate with the help of others to proceed from there if suitable.
Learning comes in many forms some from good books the book Flight testing home built aircraft is one of my books. It has good information on awareness and treatment of adverse effects. As said above I will take it very slowly with extreme caution. If it handles well I know I can fly it .Its the landing that worry's me most. Of course the effects I experienced last summer were sever adverse yaw and settling back into the water was squirrely
I didn't mean to say I was completely ignorant of how an airplane fly's I just say I have no dual flight instruction except for a half hour in a trike Witch I deem useless information.
If I could find some one to build my plane in X-plane 9's Plane Maker, It might also be helpful .That program is harder for me to learn than Auto Cad was.
I wrote the original post to make a point that being in this position having to test fly an unproven design is no place to put ones self if the are not already a pilot. I am not in disagreement with any thing said here . Its more of a warning for anyone else coming along with wild Ideas . Its not a good feeling My family is worried and I cant blame them.

I felt i left so much out that I should try to explain what I have tried to learn. As well as the fact I am not intending to take off the training wheels to soon.

steveinindy
03-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Norman, best of luck with test flying. In all seriousness, I wish you the best and hope everything turns out well. :)

hydroguy2
03-03-2012, 07:42 PM
It's not to late to have an independent engineering evaluation. Also ask around and find a actual test pilot to do some initial taxi runs and tests flights. If they won't do it, your not qualified to do it either. You owe it to your self and your family.

steveinindy
03-03-2012, 10:43 PM
It's not to late to have an independent engineering evaluation. Also ask around and find a actual test pilot to do some initial taxi runs and tests flights. If they won't do it, your not qualified to do it either. You owe it to your self and your family.

Best post on this thread.

rosiejerryrosie
03-04-2012, 07:58 AM
Norm, I hope you take all this advice to heart. We are not trying to spoil your dream, but we would hate to lose you. Putting an untested airplane and an untrained pilot together seems like it is asking too much of the gods of luck....

Bill Berson
03-04-2012, 11:46 AM
Here we are in 2012 on a forum where an ultralight designer has announced his plan to test fly a new ultralight design without any prior flight instruction.
Since no instruction is available because the FAA has dismantled the entire ultralight instruction industry in the United States, who is at fault if Norm is injured teaching himself to fly?

I blame the FAA directly for this situation and EAA indirectly for inaction on this unacceptable lack of proper ultralight instruction.
The Canadian ultralight rules are sensible and allow for two-seat instruction. The FAA should enact an emergency order to allow Canadian rules in the U.S.
Bill

steveinindy
03-04-2012, 05:17 PM
Since no instruction is available because the FAA has dismantled the entire ultralight instruction industry in the United States, who is at fault if Norm is injured teaching himself to fly?

I know plenty of people instructing on ultralights still. There is instruction available. You just have to go looking for it. Then how about he goes and gets his sport pilot? I don't think a measly few hours of training is too much to ask and the only thing it can do is benefit him. Ultimately, if he chooses to fly without training and bites it, that is his fault and his alone. That's the last thing I want. He would be the tennth friend of mine to be part of my research database and quite frankly I do not want that.

hydroguy2
03-04-2012, 05:35 PM
.....who is at fault if Norm is injured teaching himself to fly?....... That will fall solely on Norm. Instruction is available, it is his choice to utilize this training or not. BUT the people that may suffer from his inexperience is ultimately Norm and his family AND every other pilot.

WE are our own worst enemy if we allow others to continue to harm our hobby. Norm apparently is smart enough to build his own design and I hope he is smart enough to get the proper instruction.

Here's a link to some training: http://www.fpna.com/instruct.htm

Bill Berson
03-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Hydro-
Just looked at your link for training. But I cannot find any listing for the Drifter or Quicksilver on the approved SLSA list. Quicksilver told me they do not have any SLSA offering.
Does this ultralight flight school have a special training exemption?

hydroguy2
03-05-2012, 09:15 PM
I would guess they have a LODA exemption for training purposes. This allows them to use an ELSA or EAB for transition training.

But I don't know. I found the link to show that training is available...any training would be better than none.

Dana
03-06-2012, 06:37 AM
The FAA has changed their policy... you can now use an ELSA or E-AB for primary "ultralight like" training, but the hours can't be used toward any certificate or rating. I don't recall if it requires a LODA or not.

jedi
03-06-2012, 02:10 PM
Norm,

This post is mostly for others who are concerned about your safety. Norm and I have communicated in the past. I am a CFI and I am working with Norm on his flight preperations. I would like to point out that any aircraft training is of value. We are searching for the best solition to the flight training problem. Isn't it nice the way the FAA removes all the road blocks to allow access to aviation for all. Flight training can be done in ultralight, light sport, experimental or part 23 aircraft. Although ultralight vehicles do not need a certified test pilot they do need a qualified test pilot. I think we all agree on that point. Right now the issue is to have the aircraft as complete as possible when acceptable spring weather arrives. There is still much taxi testing to accomplish. If there are any aircraft somewhat near Norm that could be used please contact norm or I. We do have an issue in that we are on opposite ends of the country. Any other CFIs who would like to assist are welcome to join the conversation.

Thanks for your concern and suggestions.

Richard Warner
03-08-2012, 08:42 PM
And Norm, to add to Hydroguy's comment, you owe it to the whole aviation community. We have enough black eyes. I'm sorry, but only a complete fool would do what you say you are going to do.

Norman Langlois
03-10-2012, 05:17 PM
I ask all to note the post by, Jedi. He is my CFI. I won't aggravate this any,with rebuttals to negatives. Instead I ask anyone that can and wishes to help.I live in central New Hampshire. If you scan the other thread [Test flight progress Norms flying boat]. There is my Ph No. I also ask you read up to date on that thread. Or to make your wish to help known to me in any other way. I tried two of my local CFI contact info I got no reply. flying to a distant place may be an option in your view its not due able in mine.

hydroguy2
03-10-2012, 07:13 PM
Norman, I will apologize for my comment if you took it to be negative. I wish you the best in your endeavor, but feel strongly that you need to get some proper training. If I did not express my feelings on this and you got yourself hurt or worse, I would have much guilt.

Norman Langlois
07-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Id like to bring this thread back to light.
First not to stir , but to remind those that may be contemplating a build then learn to fly attitude. It wont be simple and smooth if you do the extreme and design as I did. All the aforementioned cautions duely noted and respected .

I took my plane to a local fly in by trailer. On the first day there I was approached by a thread follower. Who asked me to try hard to get some dual flight training. On the second day there was An CFI . I asked what his opinion of such training, and its relevant value in my case as he was able to see and did view my seaplane. Unless it is more type specific Virtually useless. He left me with a note he would try an arrange something . That has not come about yet .

I have performed a lift off as of this morning and of course the related landing See Norms flying boat flight testing for the details

Regards to all one step at a time health and weather permitting

maxfig
07-22-2012, 09:43 PM
I see you are decided to proceed with your dream, I agree that if our old guys had those fears in mind we wouldn't have any airplane today. I have had the same dream as you all my life, I just haven't done anything about it do to a lack of money, and I don't feel sure anybody will let me fly on any airpor around this area. the only thing I recomend you is to proced with a lot of caution. firs try your airplane very well on the ground, make sure you can control it. If you notice what most people who try to fly without experience have in common is fear, once they go up they panic, to avoid that first do a lot of what they call grass hope, in other words elevate just a few feet above the grownd and land again, when you have the feelling that you are oke, then try something like just flying a pattern, and try not to go up too fast. In other words try to train yourself before you go too far.

This advice, is what I have always been planing for the moment when I build my own ultralight. I believe for your what you wright that you can do it, but once again a lot of caution and train yourself well.

I wish you a lot of luck, and I hope everything goes well for you.

Flyfalcons
07-23-2012, 10:08 AM
On the second day there was An CFI . I asked what his opinion of such training, and its relevant value in my case as he was able to see and did view my seaplane. Unless it is more type specific Virtually useless.

Honestly that CFI should turn his certificates in for giving such bad advice. Good luck Norman, and let's hope you don't end up like the many others who think they can teach themselves to fly.

It can't be that hard right?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjrxfrr7oE8

Norman Langlois
07-25-2012, 06:28 PM
Why did you narrowly copy that quote as you show it its entirely misleading.

I wish you had read more thoroughly what I said . he didn't believe that LSA type aircraft like a J3 would do me any good. It needed to be more type specific. Particularly a seaplane. he said He would try to help . Unfortunately I have lost all those type aircraft that would have made a real difference. I am not going to find that. So where am I. Fist I am going to say this now even if no one agrees .Because I designed my aircraft I had to learn more than any student pilot would have to . If I had made a mistake I wouldn't be writing this post. I flew the plane last Saturday morning. I will attribute that to an error and my long time in flight simulation . The error is I never intended to fly it above 5 ft. However whats done is done 50 ft or 5 ft I still had to land it and I did . The training I need is just time in the cockpit and small steps at a time.

Flyfalcons
07-25-2012, 08:24 PM
Norman, designing a plane doesn't mean you know anything about flying it.

steveinindy
07-26-2012, 03:15 PM
The error is I never intended to fly it above 5 ft.

Given the construction of most light aircraft, that's still enough to wind up dead.


he didn't believe that LSA type aircraft like a J3 would do me any good. It needed to be more type specific
...and you missed the point that both FlyFalcons and I think he's a blithering moron for that attitude. Any training is better than none at all and trying to teach yourself to fly is questionable at best.


Because I designed my aircraft I had to learn more than any student pilot would have to

To put Falcons' point a little more bluntly: that's a load of crap. The difference between understanding how to build an airplane and how to fly one is a bit like the difference between knowing how to dissect a human heart and how to perform open heart surgery. In the best of cases, the knowledge from the former will allow you to do a marginal job at the latter. In average to worst cases, it's just enough false security to get someone killed.


If I had made a mistake I wouldn't be writing this post. I flew the plane last Saturday morning. I will attribute that to an error and my long time in flight simulation

You got lucky. Very lucky. Where your lack of experience and training will get you is most likely the first time you have an issue with the engine or you are operating under less than ideal conditions. While "type specific" training is nice, any experience in an aircraft with similar wing loading and power loading will be cross-applicable. Even in aircraft that require type certification, the basics of flying are the same: if you can land a 737, chances are you can land a 757 or 767 or even an A320 or maybe one of the jumbos. It's not too late to stop risking your neck because you think you're being safe by being "cautious" (by your own definition if no one else's). If you don't seek formal training, this discussion will very likely be discussed in an NTSB report much the same way discussions on the VAF forums were mentioned in the Dan Lloyd crash debacle.

Norman Langlois
07-26-2012, 06:17 PM
I am tired. of your obstanence you are most obviously of a single mind . If it were as you say you would not be flying anything nothing would ever have been created nore would there ever have been an ultralight era because they all had to developed and be flown and not all were done by existing pilots.
I NEVER SAID I WAS FLYING WITHOUT GUIDANCE. This ends any further posting by me you have your opinions other have theirs and We do not agree.

Dana
07-26-2012, 07:01 PM
Norman, that's exactly the point. Your lack of training or experience led you to go ten times higher than you intended, and you were very lucky to get it back down again in one piece.

Yes, during the "golden age" of ultralights many people flew without instruction. Some survived... and many people died or destroyed their airplanes, leading to the bad reputation ultralights have to this day.

Norman Langlois
07-27-2012, 04:53 AM
Dana
You are also wrong there was no luck about .
For me there was only one line to cross. And it was not my ability to fly or to get it back down in one piece . The line I crossed, was is the plane balanced correctly to fly at all. You all have some attitude of what is acceptable training . And that is were the other line is drawn in the sand, I crossed your line . I have flown the plane twice more. And I will again and again till the plane's take off speed is the way it should be.
That's the reason I was too high not because I had no control. I let it go that high because it was the right thing to do for the circumstance. having excess power
.
This thread turned into a pissing match . It was never about what I was going to do.

I know more about flying than you wish to give credit . You all have ideals of whats acceptable training.

Here an E-mail from one that was there.

Hi Norman...
Thanks for letting me be a part of your triumphal day at the lake!
Cannot tell you how I felt as the plane rose skyward from the surface
of the water, stabilized, flew straight and level, and then descended
for a fully controlled landing. Yes, you DID keep the power on, the
nose up and level, and FLEW the plane to a safe landing.
Congratulations, my friend...you have broken the surly bond that
binds us to the earth and found yourself among the birds; you have
answered the call to become a pilot, and have, by your actions today,
joined that honored band.
Give me a call tomorrow, and if we're in the area, I'll see you at
the boat landing.
Cheers!
Bob M.

Obviously everyone is not agreeing with you this X pilot was there the first day with me and he was not telling me not to fly it. He was entirely aware of my situation. And of course your opinion is he is an idiot to condone my action.

Flyfalcons
07-27-2012, 09:29 AM
So your definition of "acceptable" amount of training is ZERO flight training?

WeaverJ3Cub
07-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Norman, I gotta say, I just stumbled on this thread after it was resurrected a few days ago, and.......I am absolutely floored. My jaw is on the floor. I usually don't get involved in heated threads like this, but.....

You are seriously attempting to fly an airplane without any flight training?!? I realize that you have "hundreds of hours of simulator experience" and got the airplane off the water without breaking your neck putting it back down, and have some overly romantic instructors giving you the dangerous cover of their endorsement, but this is insane. Plain and simple.

Ok, so you might get the plane off the water, maybe you'll take it to several hundred feet with no problem. Maybe you'll take up a passenger one day (God forbid!), but quite frankly, you don't know enough to know how dangerous what you're doing is. In my own flight training, I learned hundreds of things that I never would have expected from just reading the books or flying a video game.

And plus, do you realize how illegal this is? Seriously.

What's so hard about getting some flight training before attempting to fly a homegrown design (something NASA uses highly experienced test pilots for) off the water (an environment that requires another rating for us real pilots)? Even if the whole "illegal" thing doesn't bother you, at least do yourself the favor of learning how to fly.

For your own sake, and that of your family and friends, I hope someone calls the cops next time you try this. And I'm dead serious. Before you kill yourself (and only yourself, if you're lucky). These instructors are NOT you're friends; the EAA members here expressing their flabbergasted state of mind are your friends, even though we don't know you.

Take heed! Why trade what could be a great story—"Man builds and flies his own seaplane"—for a tragedy—"Reckless 'pilot' crashes homemade flying machine into house, killing 4"?

Are we getting through?

Flyfalcons
07-27-2012, 12:15 PM
And plus, do you realize how illegal this is? Seriously.


To be fair I think he is within the bounds of part 103. Everything else you said was spot on.

WeaverJ3Cub
07-27-2012, 12:16 PM
Norman, I posted without using my brian first (maybe I should stay away from heated threads!). I apologize.

I did not realize that ultralights did not require a medical and certificate to fly.

http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/FAR.part103.html

Knowing that tempers my previous judgements a bit, however, I still think you're nuts to not get some flight training before trying this. :)


To be fair I think he is within the bounds of part 103. Everything else you said was spot on.

Thanks for pointing that out, Flyfalcons. Being a Private pilot, I've neglected reading the FARs outside of Parts 61 and 91

Flyfalcons
07-27-2012, 12:35 PM
They're good reading if you can't sleep at night.

WeaverJ3Cub
07-27-2012, 02:06 PM
They're good reading if you can't sleep at night.

Whew! No kidding! Particularly the airline/commercial parts.

I actually like reading the AIM....but only in small bits. :)

hydroguy2
07-27-2012, 06:56 PM
Norman is not a pilot. He is a irresponsible thrill seeking wannabe. He is selfish and only cares about himself. He does not value anyone's opinion other than his own. His attitude and actions meet 3 of the 5 Hazardous Attitudes of pilot decision making.


Anti-Authority: "Don't tell me!" - When people have this attitude they may resent having someone tell them what to do or they think of rules and regs as silly or unneeded.
Impulsivity: "Do something quickly!" - This is what people do when they feel the need to do something, anything and now. Usually they do the first thing that pops up in them.
Invulnerability: "It won't happen to me!" - Accidents happen only to other people. Thinking this may lead to taking more unnecessary risks.
Macho: "I can do it!" - These guys we all know. Trying to prove that they are better than anyone else and taking more risks. Both sexes are susceptible to this attitude.
Resignation: "What's the use?" - These people think that they do not make a great deal of difference in what happens to them. When things are going well they think: "Good luck". And when things are not so well, they seem to think that someone is out to get them.



I wish there were some way to enforce a news release disclaimer, so if and when he wads that thing up, the story reflects that fact that he was an experimenter, not a pilot.

Possibly these threads can help piece will be useful for the acccident investigation. Hopefully others are learning from these threads.

I said my piece before, then tried to keep quiet... but unable.

Norman Langlois
07-27-2012, 07:28 PM
Flyfalcons
In answer to you No . Zero flight training is not acceptable. But there is the difference . what you call flight training and what others do. what is acceptable to my case is not available. That was the real point of this whole thread. So I have to do a modified training which is not within your range of acceptability.

I have to do what you disapprove of . Even if I had 20 hour in LSA
if its not a seaplane .I would be exactly where I am right now Zero compatible dual . LSA VS UL is not backwards compatible as you believe. That is where we really disagree. And because there is no known UL trainers that are seaplanes. Also not float planes they are not compatible either. Must be hull pusher. closest thing may be a Sea Ray or Sea Max. These plane a way out side of my flight specs so I am stuck being a displeasure to your beliefs. You know anyone that will give me some stick time? in one of these. I may find it worth the effort in-spite of the obvious difference in spec. If the things I am pointing out have no truth in them then why would you need a tail drager or any other endorsement to fly such. Compatibility is paramount any thing else is a complete false security. And even if you dont agree your ideology has already killed more pilot this past year you should feel ashamed of supporting such a venue.
Only dead certified pilots and student training for certified go on the books they sweep the UL pilots under the rug.That is a fact. All the accidents this past year are on your side of the fence. Clean up your own act before pissing on mine.

By that I mean my training program you don't know what it is or how its being put forth. And I am not going to ask for your approval of the plan first.

Flyfalcons
07-27-2012, 10:44 PM
Norman, I fly land planes and seaplanes professionally. Please don't try to fool me into thinking that since you can't find an ultralight, pusher seaplane that instruction in any light aircraft will be of no value, because you aren't fooling anyone. Second of all, please stop referring to your training program, since you don't have one. Self-taught is not a training program. If you have people that care about you in your life, at least consider what everyone else is saying.

steveinindy
07-28-2012, 01:55 AM
Zero flight training is not acceptable

Then what precisely were you thinking engaging in a high enough speed taxi to result in an inadvertent takeoff with zero training under your belt? Seriously Norman, Ryan, the others and myself are not trying to discourage you from flying. We don't want you to die because of whatever sort of motivation has led you to take what most would consider unacceptable risks. If you don't want to take advice or hear criticism, you probably shouldn't admit to such things on forums such as this one (and we're being a lot nicer than would be seen over on places like HomebuiltAirplanes.com). I am concerned enough about the attitude you've taken that I'm half tempted to send you a release for my research into injury patterns because I genuinely fear for your safety.

Racegunz
07-28-2012, 06:27 AM
Lots of comments here that disturb me, first for all the internet experts here, flight training is not required for ultralights,(that's the all knowing FAA regulation) perhaps you should apply it like you do the parts you agree with???, second Norm is not taking any advice so just let it go. Norm why you even started this thread is beyond me,the most frequent posters on this forum are drama queens and I have to wonder if they ever really fly at all. You will never receive any acceptance or justification from this forum. Lots of advice, mostly on how to not fly your experimental because you wil die and then no one will ever be able to fly again because it will be "ILLEGAL". This should be called the we hate experimental aircraft unless it's a kit and you had one of us "professionals" build it for you, but you still should never really fly it, forum. Good Luck Norm,;) you're gonna need it!

martymayes
07-28-2012, 06:54 AM
Norm why you even started this thread is beyond me

I think this is one of the best threads currently running. Norm is a big boy, he can make decisions for himself. The rest is hilarious.

Norman Langlois
07-28-2012, 10:52 AM
What is lost here. Those of you who read only the rebuttal and I may not be the best defender of any of my statements.

I have 2 CFI flight instructors And I do have a training program !!!

Steve and all the rest of you. I made the mistake .Its beyond that now. Experiments require tests. the results can be disastrous. I was fortunate.
You and the rest are missing the point of this thread. stop being angry at me and see that its all about not doing what I have done. That is more about getting into this inadequate training situation. In the first place.

The whole presant system is set to put an end to the UL ERA . With inadequate backward compatabity .

steveinindy
07-28-2012, 02:11 PM
Steve and all the rest of you. I made the mistake .Its beyond that now. Experiments require tests. the results can be disastrous. I was fortunate.

Experiments should never be conducted in a way that potentially endangers the test subject to a degree where a reasonable person would consider it likely to inflict serious or lethal harm. They have to be conducted in such a way to learn as much as can be done safely and that includes the 'prep' work. You were very fortunate and hopefully learn from it. That's my only point in all of this.


stop being angry at me

I'm not angry at you. You're a brother and while I may not agree with your approach to things, I am simply doing my best to look out for you.

WeaverJ3Cub
07-28-2012, 08:14 PM
If nothing else, this is certainly one of the more interesting threads running right now!

Norm, I just saw the video on your other thread of your taxi test. I must say, the plane looks far more "advanced" than I had imagined.

Be that as it may, I must urge you again to get some flight training. I know it's not required, but all airplanes fall under the same set of fundamental principles that govern flight. To a greater or lesser degree, they all will handle similarly. All will stall. Power is always altitude, and pitch is always airspeed. Landings are the same general concept, etc. So although you can't get training in a plane exactly like yours (since you've built the only one in the world), ANY flight experience in an LSA or ultralight would help you out considerably. I believe this would be less of a priority if you were building from a set of tried and tested plans or were familiar with flying other aircraft, but you're not, and you don't know how it will handle (which is NOT saying you're not capable of handling it, btw.).

So I hope you'll at least consider what I (and others) have been saying. I've tried to be measured and fair, and I respect what you're doing. It certainly takes guts, and there's nothing illegal about it. But please, consider.....why has this thread provoked such a response, particularly from members of the Experimental Aircraft Association, of all places? Simply put, it's because we care, Norm. We want you to succeed and are alarmed that you are risking your life this way. If we didn't care, we wouldn't post. I know I wouldn't.

So...take care. Keep working on it, get some training, and let us know how it goes. Good luck!

Racegunz
07-29-2012, 05:52 AM
I think this is one of the best threads currently running. Norm is a big boy, he can make decisions for himself. The rest is hilarious.

Your sense of humor is also beyond me! :eek: I find the thread interesting as well..... kinda like a you find a wreck "interesting".:rollseyes:

Norman Langlois
07-29-2012, 09:16 AM
I want to first say. I never did any flying with out instruction . It was always with specific verbal instruction from a certified . and included the contingent for the high altitude excursion.
I was to only fly straight and low crow hop landing straight ahead .

I now have stopped any further practice as of yesterday. The fallowing is my concerns to Bob .( not my instructor) and his reply He is an old experienced X pilot

Bob
I need a sympathetic ear. I flew again this morning,Sat. I am becoming less confident ,a bad thing. I seem to have some fear of heights that I didn't think I would. very uncomfortable and unsure.

I plan to get some dual experience before I go up again.

Nothing went wrong today all went fairly well actually.
Again my first lift off was to high an excursion very high actually about 100 ft. Light winds and a new angle of incidence .

The second run was better but required me to reduce throttle to maintain level flight at 4 ft for about 2000 ft flight.
the third was better I found my minimal lift off settings . the plane will fly at 4500 rpm and cruse in ground effect at 4200 lift off speed is 26 mph accelerating to 30 mph descending at 4000 rpm to a smooth reentry if flare is correct and ahead aligned correctly.


It was the high altitude excursion that awakened my concern .I know nothing about my plane up there. I checked the roll rate it was very fast in my opinion even though very precise. The controls are very sensitive. I do not feel comfortable at the low speed because of this. on the other hand the altitude is like another closet door that is dark inside full of unknowns.
A bit unsettled
Norm

His reply to me
Norm...
First, what you've experienced is not unique, not unusual, and pretty normal. If you recall, I think I told you that experience in conventional three axis aircraft is orders of magnitude different (and better...) than simulator experience. You've just had a small awakening, and it's something you will get over as you get in a plane, crank it up, roll down the runway, climb out and watch the ground grow distant. You'll be so comfortable, there's no sensation of height, and no fear of falling...it's just new.
The important thing is that you've recognized the fact that you're a bit uncomfortable in the new experience that flying subjects you to...yes, it IS different! And, yes, you ARE alone up there.
There are a whole bunch of new sensations you're trying to deal with, and your reaction was completely normal. All of us who fly went through it, believe me, and the cure is very simple...more exposure in an atmosphere in which the fear is not there. And that will be sitting in a plane with a certified flight instructor, a CFI who's been around, and in whom you have total confidence. Over a period of time, being guided through both normal and challenging circumstances in an airplane, your confidence will begin to match your instructor's, and soon enough will exceed it. Yes, at some point, you will feel as though Nobody flies a plane better, more skillful;y, and safer, than you. All pilots feel that way...I know I'm "the best pilot in the world," and soon enough, you will, too.
It's just a matter of time, and experience...you have to KNOW that the plane will do what YOU want it to do, and that knowledge only comes with actually flying a plane. You have to stick the nose up, feel for the stall, and make the recovery. You have to do a 180, 360, and not lose altitude. You have to KNOW when your airspeed is getting too low, and the attitude is too nose high, and instinctively make corrections.
All the fear, discomfort and anxiety you felt Saturday will disappear, Norm, when you've had a few hours of dual instruction, hopefully in a tail dragger. That's the first order of business, connect with a CFI, spend some time in conversation, get comfortable with him, then...fly a plane. Log 5 or 6 hours of dual instruction, maybe even solo, then think about the ultralight amphib.
You'll climb back in with new skills, and new confidence...and you'll love every minute you're in the air. You'll take off, leave the water, and climb out to 1,500 feet. fly around the "patch," set up your pattern, and come in for a landing. You'll do it all and enjoy every minute. I know it, Norm...so do you.
Bob M.

I know no one will agree with me on this next in part reason. I designed .Until now I could not ask anyone to test fly it for me I had to assume that initial responsibility.

It flies and I believe flies well . I am going to have it evaluated as well as some dual instruction. Before I do any thing other than low straight lift and land and probably only one of those after I apply the step blister. My hull had no step it was suppose to be the transom . witch turned out to far aft of the CG,

I still have strong belief I need type specific . I have a ride set up for a T- Bird II

23052306 the last pictures that are relevant the float wing removed and tail boom float is in place final solution.

Sam Buchanan
07-29-2012, 10:05 PM
(Big exhale....) Finally.....a voice of reason being listened to........and hopefully this saga will not have the conclusion so many of us feared......

The biggest hurdle the novice pilot (or non-pilot...) has to overcome is realizing he doesn't know how much he doesn't know. Once that reality is comprehended actual education can occur, and the process of becoming an aviator can commence.

hydroguy2
07-30-2012, 06:58 AM
Good job Norm. Training will help you evaluate and be able to ask the correct questions to improve your craft.

WeaverJ3Cub
07-30-2012, 04:13 PM
Kudos, Norm. Glad to hear that you've decided to get some training. You'll be glad you did.

Good work on the plane too! Looks great!

(you've also awakened me to the ultralight world. I though that it required a license, etc and was another category/class of airplane. Now I'm wishing I could get a Quicksilver and fly it out of our field and "hangar" it in our barn!)

rosiejerryrosie
07-31-2012, 09:52 AM
Whew!! I have stayed out of this conversation because Norm was getting enough advice which was making him more and more angry. But, I read this with a great sigh of relief as I was dreading not seeing him post here for a number of weeks and wondering if he just got so angry that he stopped coming here or, heaven forbid, experienced what we all were fearing and is no longer with us......
Norm - getting some airtime with an instructor is the best decision you've made since you made the decision to build your own airplane. Best of luck and God speed....

Norman Langlois
09-08-2012, 04:45 PM
For the purpose of this thread. This builder is now a U/L pilot learning will continue . As any pilot that has just received there passage.

I know a few of you didn't like the fact I was using the single seat instructed methodology. That seems you will have to get used to that because I believe you are going to see a lot more of it.

I had something working for me . You will also not understand or maybe even agree with . The concept of simulation in most peoples eye is the vision of someone sitting at there desktop with a plastic MS joystick. Well that isn't the way it was for me. What I use and what I was doing gave me highly trained motor skills. I repeat MOTOR SKILLS. No other value was gleaned useful. other than aircraft knowledge. The same things I read about in my ground schooling. Those motor skills made transitioning a cake walk with the instruction.
The worst thing was the fear factor. The reality is something very different, the wind conditions another. You may be able to augment the reality transition with dual but you can not guarantee, Your student wont panic on their solo. I think the mastery of the motor skills was much more reassuring when I was solo than any thing a dual would have provided. I still would have to solo even with dual. I think you can teach motor skills with simulation, then continue with the single seat methodology for the U/L and do it with a very high degree of safety.
The simulation you use would make a difference also whether you create a passive skill or an intense skill, like the difference between a bicycle rider are a motor cross rider.
You figure that one out.
I was the respected XO of a 13 year old simulator fighter squadron.
54th Lucky
Regards Norm

jedi
09-08-2012, 06:01 PM
As you imply, the simulator does not teach wind or weather. Fall is comming and with it changing weather conditions. Be sure to observe the wind and clouds in detail as you gain experiance gradually.

Buzz
09-09-2012, 05:13 AM
For the purpose of this thread. This builder is now a U/L pilot learning will continue . As any pilot that has just received there passage.

I know a few of you didn't like the fact I was using the single seat instructed methodology. That seems you will have to get used to that because I believe you are going to see a lot more of it.


Norm, before you started getting your single seat instruction, how much dual time did you have? I thought in a previous post you mentioned you got some. Or did you not have any dual instruction before soloing via the SPTM?


-Buzz

Norman Langlois
09-09-2012, 05:35 PM
The only dual I had was 1/2 hour in a weight shift. I did my grdnd school and I did my own straight ahead test flights. I felt that was my most risky move but necessary. I would not ask some other to pay the price if I had made error in construction. Yes I did approximately 30 straight ahead and land. Each and every days flights were discussed fully with my instructor. Not all were with his approval.Because I exceeded my altitude advisory. Working out the hull performance problems was the reason for the excursions. The rest of the test flying was done by an experienced pilot. After which I was approved for more advanced maneuvers over several days,with a varying wind conditions. That being my most limiting of conditions. And they still are. I struggle to get smooth air time . Seems all the good days are when I am working.To day I logged 1 hr. In 5 -10 gusting from NW. completely unpleasant for me even though I have no problem its not fun.