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JW Lines
02-24-2012, 11:42 AM
Does anyone know of a filter / machine /process to remove the ethanol from auto fuel? (on a large enough scale to be useful for cleaning up 15-20 gallons at a time) In the old days" they used a chamois (sp) to take the water out of fuel....wish it could be somethhing simple like that???-JWL

Eric Witherspoon
02-24-2012, 03:56 PM
You could take a look at this:
http://www.portablefuelsystems.com/AlcoholSeparator.htm
The guy behind it does post on these forums. Out of the Phoenix, AZ area.
There's another thread on one of the forums on here that went back and forth on this device and other processes. The conclusion I came away with is the device here does remove alcohol, but the resulting fuel does not meet a spec. So I guess in this case, it had better be for Experimental use only. Though at ~$2500 for the unit, you had better be burning a lot of auto gas, and getting your tax rebates from the state (for not using the fuel on-road) to make up the cost...

For my economics, say the delta 100LL to autogas price (including tax rebate) is $2.50/gallon based on this week's prices in my area. That's 1000 gallons burned before the investment breaks even. Just checking my fuel log, I've burned 527 gallons in 3 1/2 years of operation. So that would be between 6 and 7 years for it to pay off for me, not including the added inconvenience of hauling the unit to the auto gas station and back for refills. If you're running more hours and/or a higher burn rate aircraft, it could pay off a lot quicker.

Tom Downey
02-24-2012, 07:07 PM
The Process is called "Stripping" here is how it is done:


Use a clear container and add 3 gallons of pump gas to one gallon of water and shake it up for a couple of minutes to thoroughly mixed the water with the alcohol. (Alcohol absorbs water) Once it settles down you will see a definite stratification of Gasoline and water. Siphon the gas into a gas can and you'll now have PURE gasoline.
Be careful, the oct. is now unknown, because the refineries use Alcohol to set OCT levels.

Mike M
02-25-2012, 11:04 AM
remove the ethanol from auto fuel?

1. what would you use it in? you'd have no idea of the octane rating, etc., after removing components the oil company used to meet the spec.

2. why not just buy no-booze gas in the first place?

http://pure-gas.org/

Joe Delene
02-25-2012, 09:45 PM
Easy to find non-ethanol fuel here in WI. I also have an ethanol test kit, to keep them honest.

dusterpilot
02-26-2012, 05:49 AM
Startron fuel treat is the best I've found to solve any ethanol problems and it keeps it fresh, too. See http://mystarbrite.com/startron/. It works as they say it does.
Bob

Mike M
02-26-2012, 06:29 AM
Startron fuel treat is the best I've found to solve any ethanol problems and it keeps it fresh, too. See http://mystarbrite.com/startron/. It works as they say it does.
Bob

wow - it's available at wal-mart - it must be good! seriously, though, it does look like a viable product. are YOU using it in YOUR aircraft?

WLIU
02-26-2012, 07:14 PM
For what its worth, the power boating community is dealing with the issue of alcohol in fuel also. Because of this, you can find gas that is alcohol free at marinas, although you would guess correctly if you guessed that they charge more than at the road side mini-mart. Star Tron is one tool that the boating folks are using to deal with the issue and it is being sold in some volume and appears to be very helpful. If the product was all hype and no results, or it hurt engines, in this internet age you would hear the screaming. There is no chemical magic about avgas, so if I had an experimental aircraft, I would likely not hesitate to add Star Tron to my fuel if I thought that it would help. After all, folks have been adding Marvel Mystery Oil to various blends of gas for years without apparent ill effect and maybe a little positive net.

On the other hand, if you rework your fuel system and engine fuel control system to use gaskets, hoses, and assorted seals that do not react negatively with alcohol, then you could load up your local filling station's product and go flying. That might be easier than trying to separate the alcohol from the gas.

So to make a short answer long, if you are looking for non-alcohol gas for your airplane, try a boat yard or marina.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

JW Lines
02-27-2012, 01:15 PM
Thanks to all for your input. Unfortuneately it is very difficult to find pure gasoline here in AZ. so another solution will have to be used....the fuel additive sounds like the simplest at this point. Again thanks to all. FLY SAFE! JWL

dusterpilot
02-27-2012, 07:31 PM
\are YOU using it in YOUR aircraft?
Yes, I use it in my Rotax 582 powered parachute with good results.
bob

prasmussen
02-28-2012, 02:34 PM
OK so...... if I buy premium gas and, one way or another, remove the alcohol, do I have sufficient octane to prevent detonation? Pretty sure this is not what the auto gas STC had in mind so are we still technically on solid ground? It is almost impossible to find ethanol-free gas here though I'll admit to never having tried a marina.

Mike M
02-28-2012, 02:58 PM
OK so...... if I buy premium gas and, one way or another, remove the alcohol, do I have sufficient octane to prevent detonation?

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?597-Ethanol-in-Fuel.&highlight=alcohol

read a LOT of info about the subject.

vaflier
02-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Startron will not protect your fuel system from the effects of alcohol . It does have benefits , but the alchohol will dissolve the sealer in your metal fuel tanks or the tanks rhemselves if they are fiberglass. It will turn many seals and hoses into a soft sticky mess. It will at the very least break loose the built up mess in your fuel system, lugging filters and more. I would never use ethanol fuel in my aircraft as I would like to live to grow old. There are no additives which will make it safe for use in your aircraft unless the entire fuel system is designed to handle it. The ethanol in gas will also absorb large amounts of water from the air which can and will cause corrosion issues all through your fuel system. Is your insurance paid up ?.

Tom Downey
02-28-2012, 08:28 PM
It will turn many seals and hoses into a soft sticky mess.

It's not the Alcohol doing that, Dr.s have been using rubber stuff in conjunction with alcohol for many many years with no problems. Refineries and distributors have been using rubber seals and hoses for years to handle alcohol with no problems.

Ask your self what was put in gas to replace the TEL when it was outlawed? those 2 chemicals are what attack the rubber compounds not alcohol.

vaflier
02-29-2012, 10:01 PM
Tom, You may well be correct about another additive causing the rubber componets to fail. But the end result is the same and unless the entire fuel system is designed or modified to work with this fuel there will almost certianly be problems. I work for a fuel supply company and have seen many many problems with this garbage both with and without the additives. Fortunately the company I work for also owns several auto parts stores. Ethanol fuel has been fantatstic for the auto parts business as well as the marine parts business. It should be outlawed !. Could you tell I really do hate he stuff. It even ate all of the seals out of our fuel delivery trucks. The only fuel which is worse to deal with is bio desiel.

Mike M
03-01-2012, 12:56 AM
Ethanol fuel ...should be outlawed!

farmers buy retail and sell wholesale. they are frugal businesspersons. they could produce their own alcohol. if alcohol were truly a viable, economical motor vehicle fuel, farmers would produce their own and use nothing else. so ends the unsolicited editorial.

Tom Downey
03-01-2012, 08:18 PM
It even ate all of the seals out of our fuel delivery trucks.

I worked for Mercury Service the fuel handler for the Navy for many years part time, we delivered auto fuel for the ground handling equipment with a 1954 Chevy with a 1000 gallon tank on the back, we went for years with one hose. Then we were delivering auto fuel without lead and the Benzene/Toluene substitute for lead and from then on we used 2-3 hoses per year, until the Navy went 1 fuel concept. (JP-8) we never delivered auto fuel with alcohol but we had the problems just the same. It ain't the alcohol. I've run airboats with 0-200---- up thru----IO-360 200 horse power, they run just fine on auto oil and fuel.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
03-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Folks,

The only solution to ethanol in fuel is to avoid it. This has been reported many times over the past years. Ethanol blends are - in nearly all instances - not allowed in our aircraft engines that are STCd or TCd for autogas. You can not remove all the ethanol from an E10 blend, the resulting fuel is likely sub-octane and not a legal fuel, and you must also dispose of the resulting highly corrosive water/ethanol mixture.

You will find two articles on the subject of 'ethanol washing' here:
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2010/11/22/washing-ethanol-out-of-mogas/
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/10/30/washing-ethanol-out-of-mogas-part-ii/

Read our GAfuels blog on GAN for numerous article on autogas, ethanol, where to find autogas, etc.

Use Pure-gas.org to find retail sellers.

Use this list to find airports selling autogas: http://www.flyunleaded.com/airports.php

Join the free Aviation Fuel Club to stay abreast of autogas issues, www.aviationfuelclub.org

Urge the EAA and AOPA leadership to strongly support autogas as the only replacement for leaded Avgas that will power nearly all sport aircraft.

Urge your congressmen and legislators to repeal the RFS ethanol mandates in EISA 2007 that have resulted in ethanol adulterating our nation's fuel supply.

DO NOT USE AN ETHANOL BLEND IN AN AIRCRAFT ENGINE, PERIOD.

nomocom
03-06-2012, 06:36 PM
Folks,
The only solution to ethanol in fuel is to avoid it.

DO NOT USE AN ETHANOL BLEND IN AN AIRCRAFT ENGINE, PERIOD.

Actually that isn't correct, unless you are simply expressing an opinion. Especially since we are on a experimental aircraft forum, how about we talk without using so many absolutes? It would be officially correct to say, "Do not use ethanol in a certified aircraft". Even then, that would be a generalization since some aircraft in Brazil are approved for ethanol and there are a few aircraft here in the US that have an STC for ethanol :-) But, in any case, +99% of the certified aircraft in the US are not.

Experimental aircraft. Do not use unless you've worked through the changes that need to be made to the aircraft. Vansairforce has some good threads on what builders have done to adapt their experimental airplanes to ethanol blends. One can read up on how ethanol and methanol is used for ADI (anti detonation injection). Reno air racers today and the powerful old radials, some of them had ADI. Also, check out the Vanguards and Greg Poe for boxer aircraft engines running just fine on ethanol. Sure, you have to make some changes, but don't we have some room for that in experimental aviation?

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
03-07-2012, 07:11 AM
Actually that isn't correct, unless you are simply expressing an opinion. Especially since we are on a experimental aircraft forum, how about we talk without using so many absolutes? It would be officially correct to say, "Do not use ethanol in a certified aircraft". Even then, that would be a generalization since some aircraft in Brazil are approved for ethanol and there are a few aircraft here in the US that have an STC for ethanol :-) But, in any case, +99% of the certified aircraft in the US are not.

Experimental aircraft. Do not use unless you've worked through the changes that need to be made to the aircraft. Vansairforce has some good threads on what builders have done to adapt their experimental airplanes to ethanol blends. One can read up on how ethanol and methanol is used for ADI (anti detonation injection). Reno air racers today and the powerful old radials, some of them had ADI. Also, check out the Vanguards and Greg Poe for boxer aircraft engines running just fine on ethanol. Sure, you have to make some changes, but don't we have some room for that in experimental aviation?


Yes, of course owners of Experimentals can do what they want, but few I know would take the risk with the fuel or lubricants in their engines. ADI uses water/methanol (not ethanol) mixture that is contained in a separate tank and sprayed directly into the fuel charge; this has nothing to do with ethanol in gasoline. Poe's engine ran on 100LL for most flying and an ethanol blend during airshows. If you don't mind draining your fuel system of an ethanol blend after every flight as he did, and as the 100% ethanol users in Brazil do, then I suppose this is OK in an Experimental, assuming every component that ethanol might touch in the engine and fuel system can tolerate it. Note that Greg Poe flew for Fagen Inc., the country's largest builder of ethanol plants, so of course they would claim that there are no issues with ethanol, which is very far from the truth.

Remember too that ethanol will start destroying components even with one single batch of fuel. Switching back to pure E0 fuel will not reverse the damage already done. There is also no denying that ethanol has only 70% of the BTUs per gallon as gasoline does, so using any amount of it will lead to lower power and less range, in addition to a myriad other issues that are very well documented. What pilot would knowingly use a fuel guaranteed to lower the power that his engine would use? That's what you have with an ethanol blend.

For a good idea how ethanol blends damage millions of engines, read the statements for any given state in this survey:
http://pure-gas.org/petition

Yes, the Rotax engine is approved for E10, but talk to any Rotax repairman (like my son) and they will recommend only the use of premium, ethanol-free fuel as the best. Jabiru's were approved for E10, but the company rescinded that approval for its aircraft after experiencing serious damage to the fuel system caused by phase separation and the resulting highly corrosive water/ethanol mixture that sits in a fuel tank.

Airplanes with their open-vented fuel systems, kept in operation for 40-50 years, are not comparable to cars. Just because E10 might work in the latest generation of cars (but is still inferior to ethanol-free fuel) does not imply that it is safe to use in any airplanes. Apples and oranges.

Instead of risking their lives and property, pilots should put their effort into working with their state legislature, congressman, the EPA and others to ban the use of ethanol in premium fuel, as Mississippi State Senator Michael Watson has proposed in his state. Call too on the leaders of the EAA and AOPA to do the same. Using any amounts of ethanol in an aircraft engine is comparable to Russian Roulette, in my opinion, which is based on three years of studying and reporting on the subject, experience with my own aircraft engine (that was destroyed by the accidental use of E10), and thousands of comments from others who engines have been damaged or destroyed by ethanol blends.


Kent Misegades
EAA #520919, Homebuilder, Vintage, Aerobatics
President, EAA1114, Apex, NC www.eaa1114.org (http://www.eaa1114.org)
Director, Aviation Fuel Club, www.AVIATIONFUELCLUB.org (http://www.AVIATIONFUELCLUB.org)
Cary, North Carolina, USA
919-946-7096 (mobile)
919-303-8230 (home office)
kent@ufuel.com

Mike M
03-07-2012, 09:24 PM
http://vanguardsquadron.com/Aircraft.aspx

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ethanol%20fuel%20aviation%20brazil&source=web&cd=18&ved=0CFEQFjAHOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sdcorn.org%2Fuserfiles%2Ffile s%2FNAAA%2520Aviation%2520Grade%2520Ethanol.pdf&ei=piRYT8aPLYnksQKFw4G0DQ&usg=AFQjCNHbJpuWL3J8JXRmfSgLHvoW92BXNw&cad=rja

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ethanol%20fuel%20aviation%20brazil&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CC8QFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Flegacy.icao.int%2FCAAF2009%2FDocs %2FCAAF-09_WP006_en.pdf&ei=piRYT8aPLYnksQKFw4G0DQ&usg=AFQjCNG7WEZpz2GmxPx3RqCBiDVNMjHL2g&cad=rja

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_EMB_202_Ipanema

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ethanol%20fuel%20aviation%20brazil&source=web&cd=43&ved=0CDgQFjACOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caddet-re.org%2Fassets%2Fno51.pdf&ei=NyZYT5zGH-2MsALd75TRDQ&usg=AFQjCNFeqfNTHVw_JbWu-52VfyUxvo4itA&cad=rja

nomocom
03-08-2012, 10:10 AM
http://pure-gas.org/petition



Kent Misegades
EAA #520919, Homebuilder, Vintage, Aerobatics
President, EAA1114, Apex, NC www.eaa1114.org (http://www.eaa1114.org)
Director, Aviation Fuel Club, www.AVIATIONFUELCLUB.org (http://www.AVIATIONFUELCLUB.org)
Cary, North Carolina, USA
919-946-7096 (mobile)
919-303-8230 (home office)
kent@ufuel.com


Kent, I applaud you for picking up an aviation concern and pouring your time and effort into it. As a fellow aviator I appreciate your enthusiasm for aviation.

That said, I think there are some real misunderstandings communicated in your last post. However, we are in thread drift mode. So, back to the original topic. We are in agreement on it being a bad idea to try and separate the ethanol from a blended fuel.


If you want ethanol free, it is better to go out and find it. The PureGas group can help you do that.


For discussing the ins and outs of ethanol, I'll start a different thread where we can go back and forth on ethanol qualities.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
03-09-2012, 07:02 AM
That said, I think there are some real misunderstandings communicated in your last post. However, we are in thread drift mode. So, back to the original topic. We are in agreement on it being a bad idea to try and separate the ethanol from a blended fuel.

If you want ethanol free, it is better to go out and find it. The PureGas group can help you do that.

For discussing the ins and outs of ethanol, I'll start a different thread where we can go back and forth on ethanol qualities.

Misunderstandings? Please list these.

I disagree that this is drifting from a thread. The notion that anyone would attempt to separate ethanol from a blend underscores a severe lack of understanding of the many dangers of ethanol in aviation fuel. Experiment with airframes and engines, but not with fuels. This can not be said enough.

Peteohms
03-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Since no one has chimed in here with actual ethanol washing experience I will relay my experience. In early July 2010 I bagan experimenting with washing the ethanol out of my gasoline to use in my 912 powered Kitfox III. From that time to the end of 2010 I probably washed nearly 200 gallons of gasoline. I had no engine problems. The only other problem that I had was that I would accumulate a few ounces of water/alcohol in my gascolater and the steel bowel started rusting. This showed that that there was slight additional phase separation over time after I filled my tanks. I flew to Oshkosh that year from Austin, TX my first tank full being washed gasoline. I finally quit washing gasoline in the Winter that year for 2 reasons. The first is that I thought cold weather might cause enough phase separation to over tax my gascolator. The second was a friend who is a Rotax expert said he was seeing some pitted float bowels from small amounts of ethanol/water sitting at the bottom of the Rotax carbs. During my testing I occasionally flew flights that used whole tanks of my washed fuel. I am not suggesting anyone wash gasoline because there is some danger involved handling the gasoline as well as having to burn off the alcohol accumulated after washing. There is also danger in getting a bit of continued separation if your plane sits with full tanks.

nrpetersen
03-11-2012, 06:06 PM
I've been thinking of trying it with my lawn mower - but no where else.

nomocom
03-11-2012, 06:43 PM
Since no one has chimed in here with actual ethanol washing experience I will relay my experience. In early July 2010 I bagan experimenting with washing the ethanol out of my gasoline to use in my 912 powered Kitfox III. From that time to the end of 2010 I probably washed nearly 200 gallons of gasoline. I had no engine problems. The only other problem that I had was that I would accumulate a few ounces of water/alcohol in my gascolater and the steel bowel started rusting. This showed that that there was slight additional phase separation over time after I filled my tanks. I flew to Oshkosh that year from Austin, TX my first tank full being washed gasoline. I finally quit washing gasoline in the Winter that year for 2 reasons. The first is that I thought cold weather might cause enough phase separation to over tax my gascolator. The second was a friend who is a Rotax expert said he was seeing some pitted float bowels from small amounts of ethanol/water sitting at the bottom of the Rotax carbs. During my testing I occasionally flew flights that used whole tanks of my washed fuel. I am not suggesting anyone wash gasoline because there is some danger involved handling the gasoline as well as having to burn off the alcohol accumulated after washing. There is also danger in getting a bit of continued separation if your plane sits with full tanks.

Pete,
I'm glad you shared your experience. Sounds like you hit several key points. The washed fuel supports combustion, but there are reasons why it isn't a good idea. Wet fuel= higher tendency for corrosion, separation isn't perfect, so the separation continues, though slowly, in your tanks.

Those contemplating using the wet fuel, have you also considered the water might freeze and block off fuel flow? After washing out the bulk of the alcohol, now you don't have the antifreeze and the fuel system is at risk for freezing. That's a key reason isopropyl alcohol is "approved" for removing water. Not only does alcohol carry it through, it prevents water from freezing and blocking off flow.

How do you handle disposal of the gasoline, water, and alcohol blend. Gasoline you say? Gasoline because some of the components go with the water and alcohol. I'd guess your nose verified some gasoline components went along with the water and alcohol?

dljosephson
03-31-2012, 08:35 PM
This series of topics has really been thrashed over the years. There is, I think, only one consistent reason for not trying to wash the ethanol out of fuel to be used in airplanes, and it's mentioned in only a few of the articles and posts. Ethanol is added to low-octane fuel stock for one reason: to raise the octane rating without using tetraethyl lead. When you take the ethanol out (assuming you do it properly, dispose of the waste properly, etc. etc.) you have lower octane fuel. If your engine is happy with 73 or 80 octane, "washed" autogas is probably okay. But if you are looking for 91/96, it's not likely that you'll be able to get it by washing even premium autogas.

(This is off topic and I will look for another thread to continue it, but my main concern is what modification is needed to make a regular aircraft engine work well on E85 or even E99. The FAA teardown report on the IO-360 they ran with AGE85 was not good news.)

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
04-01-2012, 07:14 AM
This series of topics has really been thrashed over the years. There is, I think, only one consistent reason for not trying to wash the ethanol out of fuel to be used in airplanes, and it's mentioned in only a few of the articles and posts. Ethanol is added to low-octane fuel stock for one reason: to raise the octane rating without using tetraethyl lead. When you take the ethanol out (assuming you do it properly, dispose of the waste properly, etc. etc.) you have lower octane fuel. If your engine is happy with 73 or 80 octane, "washed" autogas is probably okay. But if you are looking for 91/96, it's not likely that you'll be able to get it by washing even premium autogas.

(This is off topic and I will look for another thread to continue it, but my main concern is what modification is needed to make a regular aircraft engine work well on E85 or even E99. The FAA teardown report on the IO-360 they ran with AGE85 was not good news.)

This is not entirely true - in modern times, ethanol was prescribed as an oxygenate in California to reduce pollutants. It became used later as a replacement for MTBE, not TEL, since MTBE was the original replacement for TEL for vehicles. When a few fuel tanks were found to be leaking MTBE, fears over the potential for groundwater pollution lead to widespread use of ethanol to increase engine's resistance to detonation. BigAg and the biofuels lobby of course promoted this vigorously. Interestingly, overseas ETBE has been the main octane-boosting additive. The US is the world's leading producer of ETBE, but most is shipped overseas. Many in the US have the same knee-jerk reaction to ETBE as to MTBE, due probably to ignorance that the two are like comparing apples and oranges. (So much for our education system...) ETBE however is in use in European aviation fuels as an octane booster, and it is hinted that GAMI's 100UL fuel may use it also.

The only modifications we need regarding ethanol are to our laws - the best would be a complete repeal of EISA 2007 that created the ethanol production mandates in the first place. Let free markets determine our energy production, not bureaucrats and crony capitalists.

billatstarbrite
04-16-2012, 08:06 AM
This is a great thread. I saw on our Google Analytics page that you were discussing Star Tron, so I wanted to chime in. It's perfectly OK to use Star Tron in any land-based engine that is fueled by gasoline or by an ethanol-blended fuel, but it is NOT recommended, approved, suggested or even remotely implied for use in any aviation application. Yes, it does great things for land-based engines, but do not use in in aircraft!

We have done an incredible amount of research into fuels - with and without ethanol/alcohol. We would be pleased to try and answer any questions you may have. You can call us directly if you want at (800) 327-8583.

Let me be 100% clear: I'm not trying to sell any product here - I do NOT want you using our product in your planes! But we do have a lot of info on fuels and as a bunch of past and future pilots, we're pleased to be of whatever assistance that we can do so.

Bill

deej
04-17-2012, 05:46 PM
but it is NOT recommended, approved, suggested or even remotely implied for use in any aviation application. Yes, it does great things for land-based engines, but do not use in in aircraft!

Hi Bill,
You seem very adamant that your product should not be used in our engines. Is there something particularly bad about Star Tron that will cause damage to engines that are above sea level? I've been using your product in fuel I keep at home for my lawn mower, motorcycle, etc., but your posting raises concerns that perhaps I should not be using it at all.

Can you please clarify for us?

Thank you,

-Dj

steveinindy
04-17-2012, 06:07 PM
but your posting raises concerns that perhaps I should not be using it at all.

Liability?

raytoews
04-28-2012, 12:52 PM
Just a thought, octane rating is the resistance to exploding, or in other words sloooowww down the burn.
Wouldn't a little bit of oil do the same thing?

nrpetersen
04-29-2012, 09:07 AM
Adding oil is like adding kerosene - it makes self ignition much easier. Japanese saboteurs dissolved paraffin in US avgas stores in the Pacific in WWII to wreck the octane.

Pearson
04-29-2012, 09:42 AM
Very interesting thread. Why has no one tried to get an STC to use ethanol fuel in a small (low powered) airplane? If ethanol eats fuel lines, O rings, etc., why not replace those components with ethanol resistant versions and pursue an STC. If people are willing to pay $2500 for an ethanol washer, I would think they would be willing to pay for an STC that modifys their aircraft to use fuel with ethanol.

I think that it is a noble cause for the aviation community to pursue legislative action to make ethanol free fuel available at airports. But this would take many years, and possibly end in failure. If it were successful, I am sure the fuel would be very expensive. It seems to me pursuing an STC that replaces any components unsuitable for use with ethanol would be a cheaper and faster alternative.

rosiejerryrosie
04-30-2012, 08:00 AM
Because ethanol does more bad things that just eat fuel lines and O rings. It attracts and holds water which can be very corrosive to metal parts. In 2-cycle engines, it acts as a cleaner and removes lubricating oil from the pistons and cylindars. It effectively reduces the amount of energy produced by a given volume of fuel (ever notice that your gas milage in your car is much less than when you were able to get unpoluted gasoline?) It increases the cost of food (corn going to produce ethanol is not available as food or to feed livestock producing your baby back ribs) and has increased the presence of malnutrition in third world countries. The subsidies paid to corn and ethanol producers has helped to increase the national debt. Should I go on?

s-9chaospilot
10-05-2015, 03:30 PM
There is finally an affordable device that actually completely removes the ethanol from pump gas. I have been using it for my Rans S-9 for some time. It works as advertised. You can see it in action at www.ethanolremover.com (http://www.ethanolremover.com).

cub builder
10-05-2015, 04:16 PM
There is finally an affordable device that actually completely removes the ethanol from pump gas. I have been using it for my Rans S-9 for some time. It works as advertised. You can see it in action at www.ethanolremover.com (http://www.ethanolremover.com).

I would suggest going back and rereading the last 4 pages of posts. The ethanol is there not only to satisfy regulation, but is used to raise the octane of the fuel feedstock to create the finished fuel. Removing the ethanol also substantially lowers the octane. While your aircraft is apparently burning it without detonation issues so far, that is no guarantee the next can as you really don't know what octane you have in your now scrubbed fuel.

-Cub Builder

nrpetersen
10-09-2015, 09:41 PM
I would suggest going back and rereading the last 4 pages of posts. The ethanol is there not only to satisfy regulation, but is used to raise the octane of the fuel feedstock to create the finished fuel. Removing the ethanol also substantially lowers the octane. While your aircraft is apparently burning it without detonation issues so far, that is no guarantee the next can as you really don't know what octane you have in your now scrubbed fuel. Yes there is definitely a substantial octane reduction, plus the fuel is now saturated with dissolved water. Assuming the octane is still adequate it would work, but the residual dissolved ethanol/water will come out of solution as the gasoline is chilled. In other words, don't use it below 32 degF. Adding a small amount of isopropyl HEET (another alcohol again but at least it isn't ethanol) will re-absorb the residual water. Actually a second water treatment and settling etc would further get rid of more of the ethanol, although the scheme probably reduces the ethanol content sufficiently that it won't wreck an aircraft fuel system.

But what fraction of the ethanol can be removed this way in one stage of mixing a liter of water with 4 gallons of E10?

I'd be willing to try it in any ground based machinery (such as a lawn mower) but not in my airplane yet. If course I have access to non-alcohol 91UL (E0).

But feel free to dump the water alcohol mix anywhere.

raytoews
10-10-2015, 09:57 AM
Adding oil is like adding kerosene - it makes self ignition much easier. Japanese saboteurs dissolved paraffin in US avgas stores in the Pacific in WWII to wreck the octane.

I have to question your comment with my common knowledge. Adding kerosene or diesel fuel to gasoline does not make it easier to ignite,,,it makes it harder. Throw gas on a fire and you have an explosion, throw diesel fuel on and you have a bigger fire.

Octane is all about slowing down the burn.

A gas engine will run on diesel/kerosene. I have personal experience. During the war farmers ran their tractors on diesel, started it on gas then switched to diesel.

Back in my younger days when we couldn't always afford gas we would "occasionally" siphon gas out of a field tractor and drive on that. We always had a little can of gas along to start the old low compression chevy.

I believe paraffin would gum up the injectors or carb jets??

Just adding fuel to the fire :)

Ray

FlyingRon
10-11-2015, 06:46 AM
It's not the Alcohol doing that, Dr.s have been using rubber stuff in conjunction with alcohol for many many years with no problems. Refineries and distributors have been using rubber seals and hoses for years to handle alcohol with no problems.

Ask your self what was put in gas to replace the TEL when it was outlawed? those 2 chemicals are what attack the rubber compounds not alcohol.

Not necessarily rubber, but alcohol isn't kind to various components in the fuel system. It just causes rubber to potentially swell. The Vanguard (the RV ethanol guys) have figured out where a lot of the problems are. Not so much of a problem with injected engines, but some of the carbs had to be reworked.

raytoews
10-13-2015, 09:36 AM
When I was at Oshkosh in 96 there was a guy from a university who was obviously pushing ethanol. He had an RV3 and was running it on pure ethanol. When I asked him about mixing fuel he was quick to point out it was pure ethanol he was running.
I can believe ethanol will increase the octane (resistance to explode).
Light a can of gas and WHOOSH.
Light a can of ethanol and you get a pretty light blue to clear flame.

How would one go about doing some real world testing?
Set an engine up on a stand, crank the timing up until it spark knocked and then try different fuels?
I haven't heard an engine (pinging) since the 70's, EFI engines won't allow it with their knock sensors.
I have never heard an airplane engine ping, not sure you would hear it over all the other noise.

Would be nice if someone with a test cell and dyno would try it and post the results here, the way EAA did when they were STC'ing auto fuel.
Probably never happen, impossible to keep the lawyers at bay!

There are numerous companies developing av fuels but from what I have read they are limited production and would never release their findings to a bunch of crazy experimenters. Besides, no money in finding a simple solution like adding a little two stroke oil?

Ray

wyoranch
10-13-2015, 10:29 AM
When I was at Oshkosh in 96 there was a guy from a university who was obviously pushing ethanol. He had an RV3 and was running it on pure ethanol. When I asked him about mixing fuel he was quick to point out it was pure ethanol he was running.
I can believe ethanol will increase the octane (resistance to explode).
Light a can of gas and WHOOSH.
Light a can of ethanol and you get a pretty light blue to clear flame.

How would one go about doing some real world testing?
Set an engine up on a stand, crank the timing up until it spark knocked and then try different fuels?
I haven't heard an engine (pinging) since the 70's, EFI engines won't allow it with their knock sensors.
I have never heard an airplane engine ping, not sure you would hear it over all the other noise.

Would be nice if someone with a test cell and dyno would try it and post the results here, the way EAA did when they were STC'ing auto fuel.
Probably never happen, impossible to keep the lawyers at bay!

There are numerous companies developing av fuels but from what I have read they are limited production and would never release their findings to a bunch of crazy experimenters. Besides, no money in finding a simple solution like adding a little two stroke oil?

Ray

(M)Ethanol is higher octane, but contains less energy(BTUs) than gasoline. I would run ethanol in my 600 CID 11.5 to 1 Chevy. Specific fuel consumption goes through the roof with Ethanol, but I have no issues with pre-ignition on a supercharged engine putting out over 1000 horsepower. The downside is that for correct air fuel mixture it requires about 30% more fuel over gasoline. As a side note it also fires cooler whether that is an advantage is up to you. I have no clue about how it affects an aircraft engine but I wanted to pass on the facts as I understand them about (M)ethanol.
Rick
P.S. please feel free to correct me if I am mis-informed!!!

FlyingRon
10-14-2015, 06:00 AM
EFI engines will certainly run poorer when they retard to avoid the pinging. Clearly you could measure this (and frankly the electronic controls could tell you a pretty good estimation of "octane" as a result).


I'd avoid reinventing the wheel though. THere's already a ton of stuff out there on 100% ethanol in RVs and lots of info on flex fuel in auto engines.

Mike M
10-14-2015, 12:51 PM
Very interesting thread. Why has no one tried to get an STC to use ethanol fuel in a small (low powered) airplane?

http://www.embraer.com/en-US/ImprensaEventos/Press-releases/noticias/Pages/Embraer-celebra-dez-anos-do-Ipanema-movido-a-etanol.aspx

Dana
10-14-2015, 06:45 PM
I can believe ethanol will increase the octane (resistance to explode).
Light a can of gas and WHOOSH.
Light a can of ethanol and you get a pretty light blue to clear flame.


Ethanol has higher octane, yes, but it's not "resistance to explode". Octane rating is a resistance to "detonation" (pinging). The reason ethanol doesn't go "WHOOSH" like gasoline is not because of its higher octane rating, but its lower vapor pressure (2.3 vs. 8-15 for gasoline) and higher flash point (55F vs gasoline's -45F). Though I suspect the flash point may be related to the octane rating (I'm not a chemist). Flash point and vapor pressure are certainly related.

PaulMillner
01-02-2016, 08:02 AM
Ethanol has higher octane, yes, but it's not "resistance to explode". Octane rating is a resistance to "detonation" (pinging). The reason ethanol doesn't go "WHOOSH" like gasoline is not because of its higher octane rating, but its lower vapor pressure (2.3 vs. 8-15 for gasoline) and higher flash point (55F vs gasoline's -45F). Though I suspect the flash point may be related to the octane rating (I'm not a chemist). Flash point and vapor pressure are certainly related.

Flash and octane rating re unrelated... At any given flash point, there are zero octane and 100 octane molecules available.

Paul

FlyingRon
01-02-2016, 08:14 AM
Flash and octane rating re unrelated... At any given flash point, there are zero octane and 100 octane molecules available.

Octane rating has nothing really to do with "octane" molecules. It's a measurement of detonation resistance compared to a pure octane source. Ethanol has zero octane molecules in it. Propane which has a very high octane (and very low flash point as well) and no octane moledules in it.

Another property, probably more related to octane rating is the auto-ignition temperature. For gasoline it's up around 280C where diesel is down around 260 an ethanol at 360.

PaulMillner
01-02-2016, 08:23 AM
I have to question your comment with my common knowledge. Adding kerosene or diesel fuel to gasoline does not make it easier to ignite,,,it makes it harder. Throw gas on a fire and you have an explosion, throw diesel fuel on and you have a bigger fire.

Octane is all about slowing down the burn.

A gas engine will run on diesel/kerosene. I have personal experience. During the war farmers ran their tractors on diesel, started it on gas then switched to diesel.

Back in my younger days when we couldn't always afford gas we would "occasionally" siphon gas out of a field tractor and drive on that. We always had a little can of gas along to start the old low compression chevy.

I believe paraffin would gum up the injectors or carb jets??

Just adding fuel to the fire :)

Ray

ray,

octane rating is is about resistance to detonation under pressure... Mid-process in the combustion process. Your Unpressured bonfire experiments are not parallels. Jet or diesel have an octane rating of about 50... Which might be adequate in the 5:1 compression ratio tractors you cite. Not so good in a 8.5:1 aircraft engine.

Paul

PaulMillner
01-03-2016, 02:09 AM
Octane rating has nothing really to do with "octane" molecules. It's a measurement of detonation resistance compared to a pure octane source. Ethanol has zero octane molecules in it. Propane which has a very high octane (and very low flash point as well) and no octane moledules in it.

Another property, probably more related to octane rating is the auto-ignition temperature. For gasoline it's up around 280C where diesel is down around 260 an ethanol at 360.

Ron,

In fact octane rating is defined by the properties of a very specific iso-octane molecule, 2-2-4 trimethyl pentane. So octane rating is very much related to octane molecules... That's how it's defined. I think what you might be meaning to say is that a hydrocarbon mixture need not contain octane to have an octane rating, and that's certainly true.

Autoignition temperature is a good predictor of whether you have gasoline, jet, or diesel... But not of octane rating. Normal heptane and iso-octane have nearly identical autoignition temperatures. But n-heptane has an octane rating of zero, and certain i-octane has an octane rating of 100...

Paul

FlyingRon
01-03-2016, 08:17 AM
In fact octane rating is defined by the properties of a very specific iso-octane molecule, 2-2-4 trimethyl pentane. So octane rating is very much related to octane molecules... That's how it's defined. I think what you might be meaning to say is that a hydrocarbon mixture need not contain octane to have an octane rating, and that's certainly true.

I should have said the "presence of octane molecules." You were the one who mentioned such presence which implied that it somehow had relevance.

PaulMillner
01-04-2016, 01:45 AM
Oh no, I wasn't talking about octane *molecules* but octane *rating*. Let me turn the adjectives into prepositional phrases.

At any given flash, there are molecules of zero octane (rating) and molecules of 100 octane (rating).

If only English had noun case indicators like Latin does! :-)

paul

Byron J. Covey
01-04-2016, 05:09 AM
If only English had noun case indicators like Latin does! :-)

paul

If Latin were the language of the USA, 99.999% of the nation would be unable to construct a gramatically correct sentence.


BJC