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ams
02-19-2012, 11:08 PM
Would an RV (was considering an RV7, but assume a tandem RV8 would be "better") or Harmon Rocket, with inverted oil / fuel, be competitive in advanced aerobatic competition? If a stock version of the kit would not be competitive, are there things one could realistically do during construction to make an RV more competitive? (such as to modify airframe to take a larger engine, beef up structure, etc). Would expect to talk to an engineer to make safe changes, if this is even feasible.Or would this be wasted time and money - better to buy/ build a dedicated aerobatic aircraft?Thank you,AMS

RetroAcro
02-20-2012, 09:30 AM
Have you gotten into aerobatics yourself yet? RVs are great all-around airplanes, but they are not designed solely for aerobatics like a lot of other airplanes were. They can do well (and have done) up to Sportsman level competition, depending on the pilot. Are you familiar with the different competition categories? There are five of them. You mentioned "advanced aerobatic competition". There is an Advanced category, but you will not find RVs there. They could fly up to Intermediate, but most folks are uncomfortable snap rolling them, not to mention the fact that most RV pilots don't have enough aerobatic interest to work at being competitive at that level. You'll see maybe 3 RVs each year fly Primary or Sportsman.

I would suggest getting enough aerobatic training and experience to decide whether or not competition or even competition-style flying is something that interests you. It's not for everyone. Lots of folks seem to want their very first airplane that has some aerobatic capability to be able to take them to the high levels of competition, before they have gotten their feet wet enough to know whether or not it's for them. So just let it happen naturally. If you want an RV, buy or build one because you like it for what it is. You can acquire plenty of aerobatic skills in an RV. In fact, like any airplane, it will take a lot of time, effort, and skill to truly exhaust the capabitilies of an RV. If you get to the point where you want to focus more on aerobatics and compete at higher levels, you can buy a more purpose-built machine. Most RV pilots like them for their all-around performance and sporty handling, but not necessarily for their aerobatic capability. There are extremely few RV pilots who take full advantage of the airplane's aerobatic ability. Would be nice to see more do that, given the thousands of them flying.

steveinindy
02-20-2012, 10:01 AM
I would suggest getting enough aerobatic training and experience to decide whether or not competition or even competition-style flying is something that interests you

....and can handle. There are a lot of people who are interested by it that simply have no business doing aerobatics due to either their physical health (it takes a bit more in the way of cardiac fitness to handle sustained inverted flight or really aggressive turns than it does standard flying) or their lackluster flying skills. I have a hypothesis that a fair to significant of the "loss of control" events during low-altitude aerobatics in homebuilts are actually missed medically related crashes where marginal baseline coronary flow or latent heart failure or some other previously overlooked (or at least unreported) condition combines with a relatively low g load to induce either reduced consciousness or unconsciousness. Just a hypothesis since it's hard to back this sort of thing up without black boxes or survivors.....

martymayes
02-20-2012, 02:42 PM
Or would this be wasted time and money - better to buy/ build a dedicated aerobatic aircraft?Thank you,AMS

It think it borders on waste of time and money. If advanced aerobatics is your goal, get an airplane that is more suited for that purpose out of the box.

ams
02-20-2012, 08:04 PM
I appreciate the information. The reason I asked was because, when inquiring about a One Design with someone from IAC and it's use in competition, I was told that there were few around to compete with, and to look at the RV aircraft as many owners were doing Sportsman competition. Vans doesn't call their aircraft "aerobatic", but more of an "aerobatic lite". I was dubious about RVs in competition, so I thought I would ask experts. I am aware of the different classes of competion. Thanks for your concern; I'm fit and healthy with good cardio and enjoy unusual attitudes. I just need a decent plane. Thank you again.

WLIU
02-21-2012, 08:19 AM
I have been watching RV-8's come to contests and fly Sportsman. The pilots who bring them seem to do OK. I would not rule out an RV if you are just a little interested in participating in IAC. An airplane is not a lifetime commitment, so you can always move to a different ship if you get hooked.

I will note that the Rockets are optimized for speed. That makes them a poorer choice for a competition where you have to stay in a box. If you dig into the details of the One Design or the Extra's you will find out that the choice of wing attempts to limit speed. When you are vertical down at 2500', accellerating, and trying to get a roll done before you blow out the bottom of the box, speed is NOT your friend. The programs that you will fly will also require a spin. The competition crowd is regularly entertained by watching a new guy in some super ship coasting away into the distance as they try to slow down to spin. You get penalties deducted from your score whe you fly outside the box. If you visibly force your airplane to spin you get a zero for the figure. If you fly below the box floor (1500' AGL for Sportsman) just for a moment you get a zero for your entire program. The latter rule is for your safety.

My RV friends post respectable scores at the contests although they complain that the scores that I award them as an IAC Judge are lower than they would like. There are not a lot of guys showing up with RV's, but we may see more. There is a large enough population out there and you can only go to so many fly ins.

Another advantage of an RV over a One D is the second seat. Winning a trophy is great for the ego. Having a happy spouse come with you to the contest - priceless. That's why I own a 2 seat Pitts rather than a one seat anything.

Best of luck,

Wes

ams
02-21-2012, 04:40 PM
Even more good information - that was a good point about the wing design and speed. That also addresses one of my questions about if there was something one could do to make the RV aerobatic - I was thinking only about structural design and modifications, but the wing is an intrinsic element to this kit design. Could put different wings on it, but that is pointless - better to find the right aircraft to begin with. Just have to keep looking. Thank you to everyone who replied - all were great comments and I appreciate that you can answer without laughing ( at least online).

ams
02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
BTW, there are plans for a two seat OD.

WLIU
02-22-2012, 12:13 PM
I will caution that the two seat DR-109 is sort of an orphan at this point. The one builder that I have spoken to reports that there are holes in the plans where you have to invent parts. There is an individual out there trying to fix all of that, but it sounds like it will be a while before the DR-109 is a project for a first time builder.

If you are a biplane person, the Eagle is still the standard for kits. Aviat will still sells the kits and guys like Benny Davis provide support too.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

steveinindy
02-22-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm fit and healthy with good cardio and enjoy unusual attitudes

Unless you can pass the military pilot physical exams and other tests (such as a stress echo), you really can't say you have that good of cardio for high G, etc. There are a lot of people whose first indication of severe cardiac problems that have likely existed for some time is a collapse and sudden death. I enjoy unusual attitudes too but there's a big difference between a few loops and spins and trying to sustain consciousness in a 7-9 g turn. The best advice I can offer- and this was given to me by a famous test pilot- was to always remember that the "squishy mass in the pilot's seat" is the weakest link in any aircraft. Just because an aircraft is tested to withstand aerobatic category maneuvers does not mean it's a good idea for the average Joe Q. Pilot to try to push that aircraft anywhere near those limits.


I just need a decent plane.

Then I would recommend against the RV series. They are good for basic stuff but I wouldn't want to try to pretend to be Maverick and Goose in one.

RetroAcro
02-22-2012, 02:30 PM
Unless you can pass the military pilot physical exams and other tests (such as a stress echo), you really can't say you have that good of cardio for high G, etc. There are a lot of people whose first indication of severe cardiac problems that have likely existed for some time is a collapse and sudden death. I enjoy unusual attitudes too but there's a big difference between a few loops and spins and trying to sustain consciousness in a 7-9 g turn. The best advice I can offer- and this was given to me by a famous test pilot- was to always remember that the "squishy mass in the pilot's seat" is the weakest link in any aircraft. Just because an aircraft is tested to withstand aerobatic category maneuvers does not mean it's a good idea for the average Joe Q. Pilot to try to push that aircraft anywhere near those limits.

I don't think he's looking to fly military fighters. Nobody sustains 7-9G in any piston plane, aerobatics or not. The Unlimited monoplanes might pull G is this range, but it'll only last about 1 second. There's no need to pull more than about 4.5G at the Sportsman level. And even at that, the G is experienced for very short amounts of time. You really don't have to be in great shape to fly aerobatics, or even competition acro. If you came to a contest you might be surprised that many guys have the same beer guts that non-acro guys have. :-)


Then I would recommend against the RV series. They are good for basic stuff but I wouldn't want to try to pretend to be Maverick and Goose in one.

I would recommend an RV. They are designed and stressed for aerobatics (+6/-3G) just like any other aerobatic airplane. My Pitts has the same stress limits. They are perfectly suitable for flying Primary and Sportsman level competition acro. Any airplane has its limitations. You would not subject an RV to the same stress and certain maneuvers that are possible in the carbon fiber monoplanes, but neither would you most other aerobatic airplanes that are not carbon monoplanes. I flew aerobatics for 5 years in an RV, and did all the aerobatics you can do in an airplane without inverted systems. Great airplane.

steveinindy
02-22-2012, 06:47 PM
I don't think he's looking to fly military fighters. Nobody sustains 7-9G in any piston plane, aerobatics or not. The Unlimited monoplanes might pull G is this range, but it'll only last about 1 second. There's no need to pull more than about 4.5G at the Sportsman level. And even at that, the G is experienced for very short amounts of time. You really don't have to be in great shape to fly aerobatics, or even competition acro. If you came to a contest you might be surprised that many guys have the same beer guts that non-acro guys have. :-)

Oh, I know. I know a lot of military pilots who are rather flabby too. The point is not the actual level of fitness but the cardiac issues that tend to lurk asymptomatically in those of us with a sedentary lifestyle. I agree that there's no need to pull more than 4.5 g but would say that it extends beyond the sportsman level to include any level to be quite honest unless you're in combat. You get much beyond 5 or 6 g, especially if you're inverted and most people are going to find it downright unpleasant. Even with my masochistic streak, this is the case with me and with most of the folks I know who do aerobatics. I just don't see the need to do anything beyond that but then again, I tend to look at aerobatics and such at airshows like Oshkosh with a healthy degree of "Eh...that's nice....moving on". My point about the RV series being unsuited was from the assumption that he had little background in aerobatics and was looking to go out and really tear it up. Even for 4.5 g, a marginal factor of safety of 25% would put the RV series at the lower end of the suitability spectrum and I wouldn't go beyond that level in an aircraft without a much higher design load tolerance.

WLIU
02-22-2012, 08:45 PM
They information and opinion presented in the last post suggests an incomplete understanding of the design limits for the RV's and how competition aerobatics are flown.

The +6 -3 limits are placard limits and the ultimate limits are +9 -4.5. No reason not to fly to +6 -3.

Competition acro is like any other athletic activity. You build up tolerance through repetition of the building block figures. Focusing on precision you find that you do not have the mental attention units to be uncomfortable.

If you fly one loop a month, its easy to find discomfort. If you fly +6 -3 three times a week like I do during the season, you don't even notice it.

The original poster did not mention whether he currently owns an airplane. The first rule of aerobatic competition is bring an airplane. You can fly with a local aerobatic school and bring their airplane to find out whether you have the aptitude, desire, and budget for this sport. That is the easy way in. Some pilots find that a little taste is good enough. Some pilots find themselves selling all of their other toys and taking out a second mortgage to buy the highest performance ride that they can't afford. You don't know what is right for you until you show up at that first contest.

Bringing an RV to a contest and flying Sportsman will not come close to approaching the G load limits of the airplane and will provide entry into the world of competition. If the original poster likes RV's, I encourage going forward. If the contest experience isn't what he expects, and RV is a great airplane for all of the other flying activities out there.

As they say in the Nike ads - Justs Do It.

Best of luck - See you at the box

Wes
N78PS

RetroAcro
02-22-2012, 10:11 PM
You get much beyond 5 or 6 g, especially if you're inverted and most people are going to find it downright unpleasant.

Inverted? Most people find negative 3G unpleasant. But you're right, "much beyond 5 or 6 g" negative is downright unpleasant since in most cases you're now flying a broken airplane.


My point about the RV series being unsuited was from the assumption that he had little background in aerobatics and was looking to go out and really tear it up. Even for 4.5 g, a marginal factor of safety of 25% would put the RV series at the lower end of the suitability spectrum and I wouldn't go beyond that level in an aircraft without a much higher design load tolerance.

You seem very misguided about aerobatics and aerobatic airplanes. An RV is stressed according to the FAA's requirement for aerobatic aircraft...+6/-3G of operational load limit. This means the airplane is designed to be repeatedly subjected to this amount of stress without being detrimental to the airframe. These airplanes are required to have a 50% strength margin over +6/-3 built in, meaning they must sustain +9G before airframe deformaties occur. Not sure why you consider an RV to be any different from other aerobatic airplanes in this regard. You seem to be implying that only airplanes with greater than 6G of load limit are suitable. There are extremely few that fall into this category - basically the Unlimited monoplanes. This is to say that the many other aerobatic airplanes that have been flown for decades as trainers and as the first acro mount of many new aerobatic pilots are unsuitable. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your opinions come across as being uninformed by facts and experience, so when you say something like "I would recommend against the RV series" to the original poster who is seeking experience and advice, I feel the need to clarify these issues with you.

steveinindy
02-22-2012, 10:18 PM
The +6 -3 limits are placard limits and the ultimate limits are +9 -4.5. No reason not to fly to +6 -3.

I didn't think 6/-3 sounded correct since I'm used to (from a structural standpoint) hearing the ultimate load limit. That's where the confusion stemmed from.

BruceAir
03-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Dick Van Grunsven wrote about aerobatics in the RV series in "Approaching Aerobatics," a feature in the December 2000 issue of Sport Aerobatics, the magazine of the IAC. Those contemplating flying the RV series in competition and for recreational aerobatics should review that article.

bsquared01
04-06-2012, 06:59 PM
Has FULL spin testing been done on each RV aircraft type. Blown aerobatic maneuvers can result in all types of spins. Will the RVs go into flat spins easily, will they recover easily? Just something to consider.

WLIU
04-07-2012, 04:52 AM
I will suggest two things. Dick Van G is very thorough. Someone else can check, but I would be very surprised if the RV aircraft have not been spin tested as thoroughly as normal category aircraft.

Also, flat spins are over-hyped. The most common method to get into a spin in competition acro is to kick early for a hammer.... ask me how I know. The most important variables are CG and power. If you are within the aerobatic CG envelope and you pull the power to idle, the rest of the recovery is a non-event unless you were stupid enough to get into the situation below 1000' or you skip the training module on spin recovery altogether.

The pilots that I see at IAC contests are most often flying RV-8's. Have not seen any of the side-by-side seating models. Those pilots look to be flying a forward CG's and I have not observed any issues with flying the figures.

If anyone has hard data to contradict any of this info, please feel free to post.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Flyfalcons
04-07-2012, 10:53 AM
Van's posted an excellent service bulletin on spins and even though it focuses on the changes made to the RV-7, it does show how much thought and effort they have put into their design. The last paragraph is especially important.

http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb02-6-1.pdf

RetroAcro
04-08-2012, 08:09 AM
Van's posted an excellent service bulletin on spins and even though it focuses on the changes made to the RV-7, it does show how much thought and effort they have put into their design. The last paragraph is especially important.

http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb02-6-1.pdf

Yes, good SB. Just wanted to note that Van's consideration of his design as "sport aerobatic" capable does not mean competition aerobatic flying would necessarily be outside the envelope of what is described here to be "sport aerobatics". Not all aerobatic airplanes are suitable for Unlimited aerobatics, which includes tailslides and outside snaps. RVs are generally only flown up to the Sportsman category, which consists of the basic figures many folks do when flying "sport aerobatics". The only difference between Sportsman competition and recreational sport acro is the standard of precision. Flying with precision does not require stressing the airplane more than doing lazy "flopping around" acro. Many folks have this misconception about contest flying.

Panhandler1956
04-15-2012, 06:08 AM
I have an RV-8 and I'm considering doing a contest or two this summer. I have just flown recreational aerobatics up to now so this will be my first experience in contest flying which is certainly different, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. I'll start out in Primary and then move to Sportsman. I think the RV can probably even handle an intermediate sequence in the right hands. If I was reading the forms right the only snap roll in intermediate is on the top of the loop - low energy. My -8 is equipped for sustained inverted flight, but I have the heavy engine and prop so I plan to ballast it for solo acro flight (it's at the forward end of the envelope solo).
Now I just have to get my chute repacked....

RetroAcro
04-15-2012, 07:09 AM
Brent, definitely go for it. I think you'll enjoy it...just make a point of doing so! Don't take it too seriously or put too much pressure on yourself. You'll learn a lot and meet some great folks. I think you'll also be surprised at how much and how quickly you'll be able to improve your flying with good help from the ground.

Eric

Panhandler1956
04-16-2012, 04:44 PM
Thanks Eric! I'm excited to give it a try!

willymac
05-27-2012, 07:29 AM
Brent,
I looked up the Ohio IAC chapter and saw the May Newsletter. You've already made the right contacts, and have taken the first steps of really having fun. Unfortunately, Vans air force website, which is fantastic, is not aerobatic friendly, which makes aerobatic discussions difficult. Doug Bartlett, IAC president, started a forum on Yahoo a few years ago trying to find a way to encourage RVs to participate. Ron Schreck, TeamRV, was the RV point of contact and posted on Vansairforce.net to solicit those interested. After a few months of discussions, it was apparent that there was very little interest in the RV group as a whole. However, there are a few of us that really enjoy using the RV at contests. Because we are fast, most don't have inverted systems, and can't hold the down lines very long, one of the main discussions was having a separate RV category. I totally do not agree with this. Competing in the RV can be done, and it shows we're part of the IAC family. Find a mentor (IAC competitor) who can give you some pointers from the ground, and you'll do just fine. I've been working on a Sportsman Free style that will be more RV friendly, but haven't had it critiqued from the ground yet.
Now go fly and have fun,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
Alabama
(willyeyeball)

frank_rv4
05-28-2012, 10:26 AM
http://youtu.be/Wr4KRnqn79E

That's me in my RV4 - practicing for this years - 2012 - sportsman. I was planning on doing it at the rocky mountain house contest in Sept. I'm in a trade deal however on a unlimited acro machine - that has fully inverted systems. so I may be flying that instead. Only cavote I have to fly mine out 3000miles to Quebec. from the west coast.

I would agree with some of the comments of course. My Rv4 - is very capable of doing up to the sportsman catagory - which is a ton of fun - and the price of these are reasonable - usually 40 - 50 K can get you into a nice RV4. I have also flown the RV7's - they are much heavier and not as good at performing aerobatics as the RV4 is. The RV4 is the basis that was used to develop the F1 rocket and the Harmon Rocket. I would lean towards the F1 over the harmon - but of course it's the quality of the build that matters and the equipment on board etc... watch my video I think it demonstrates the capablity of the RV4. It's restricted to +6 and - 3 G - I have never gone beyond 4.5 - sustained anyways. Most loops I do about 3 - 3.2 G. I don't do a lot of Neg. g as mine is a non inverted bird. I would need to get a ellison throttle body or fuel injection and a inverted oil system installed. But it's not really worth it because it's not a competitor in the intermediate catagory - main problem I have is the smaller rudder - you don't have the rudder authority you need to do - snap rolls for example - also that wing is designed to FLY not stall - so it's hard to do good spins - you have to hold it in the spin and force it into one. snap rolls not so pretty - at least with my plane. If I had maybe more throw - or a larger surface area perhaps. it's a fun plane for the price and can do lots - similar to the RV8 but slightly smaller . Great plane for the money. Also most of the true aerobatic planes in this price range - would be cloth - or wood - metal - cloth combination - here you would need a hanger - due to winter - snow etc... rain etc... and heat from the sun etc... just not good for them - I considered a pitts but I have a paved spot but no hanger space - it's very expensive here for hanger space if any were avialble. so that's why I got the RV4 I needed an all metal plane. What you need to do - is follow your heart - is aerobatics something that you are going to live and die by? that's the reason I'm trading mine in on another Acro machine - because this is what I live to do. But if you only want to do some rolls and the odd loop - or cuban 8 once and a while - and perfer to go off to the fly ins etc... and use it for X - country etc... then the RV's may be what you need. Glass air's also fast and can do basic aerobatics - but land fast.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

frank_rv4
05-28-2012, 10:30 AM
http://youtu.be/Wr4KRnqn79E

Here's my latest video - of me practicing the 2012 - known program for sportsman catagory. in my RV4 - same as yours but lighter probably has similar capablities. Mine is non inverted bird. I have a few videos I did from different camera angles. Take some lessons though - before you try anything. I did about 5 hours - and that's all it took for me - I'm able to fly my RV4 very well - know what I can and can't do with it - and stay safly within all of it's limits. I'm having such a ball - I'm getting an unlimited acro machine later this summer. I hope to also compete this summer either in the RV4 or the new plane up in Rocky mountain house - that's the closest place I can go within Canada.

Have fun - stay safe.

RoscoeT
05-28-2012, 05:05 PM
frank_rv4, have you had the opportunity to receive any ground critiquing yet? Do you have someone you can work with before the contest?

willymac
05-29-2012, 05:59 AM
Here's the 2012 Sportsman routine flown in an RV-4 with inverted fuel and oil from left wing view point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCBww83aHds I have other youtube videos approaching the limits of the RV capabilities, but didn't even attempt the maneuvers until I had several hundred hours of acro experience. Definitely agree with Frank about not enough rudder, and I don't snap the RV since it's not structually designed for that. That keeps you from going into Intermediate level, but that doesn't mean you can't fly most of the Intermediate maneuvers using a Free style in Sportsman. I'm working on a Sportsman free style that sequence that highlights the attributes of the RVs which are speed and vertical up lines.
Bill
RV-4 slider

frank_rv4
05-29-2012, 10:29 AM
Yes actually one fellow in our club - we have about 135members - used to be an IAC judge - and one day watched me - doing some aerobatics - I was practicing last year's - 2011 - sportsman sequence. He mentioned my humpyty dump looked really good - i agree though - I would love to have been able to go to the 2 day practice session up in Rocky Mountain House - it's sometime in June. it's quite a flight from here where I live in the Okanagan Valley - in the dry southern interior of BC. To get there you have to cross about 4 - ranges of mountains including the rockies being the last range. I fly in the mountains all the time mind you and it's for that reason I know it's not easy to make that trip just when ever you like - the conditions have to be such that the upperwinds about 9 and 12K - are under 20knots and lower is better - as well you need decent - high pressure - clear sky etc... so it's hard to plan to be able to say - for sure yes I can make it on the 21st of june for sure I'll be there with my plane. I hope to make it to the contest it's on sept 17th I believe. I'll ask my buddy he's got an RV6a - one of my other friends built if he can "critique "me. My hammerhead sucks - mainly because it's just so hard to do with that tiny rudder - i have to do the "scandinavian flick " ie) opposite rudder just before the big kick then nurse it over with a combination of controls - so that I don't slip back - and head straight back down - and out. I have the loops - almost perfect I think - spins are pretty good but the RV4 - sucks really when it comes to putting it into a spin - as it's resists stalling - till it finally gives it up - you feel like you are hangingin there - ok stall already please - and I also sort of nurse that by giviing it a quick jerk - and rudder then alieron and elevator - all simutaously - to get it where I want it - pretty much stalled spinning headed straight down again - keeping track of the turns since 1 1/4 comes up fast. I use the ground usually a roadway etc... and or 2 lakes in one of our practice areas to remain oriented within the routine - it' s mapped out on my aresti - sheet - and I put in - OK lake - etc... or Otter lake etc... some geographic - or NORTH - or SOUTH - etc... something for me to know that when I exit the figure I'm coming out on North exactly - or South etc... and it depends on the wind direction as well. I am doing my best considering I'm all alone here - I wish like heck I could get some other's into it and get a small interior chapter going based out of our flying club. even 3 - 4 guys - (or gals) would be cool. I know some of the guys are into it - but not that much - the odd loop or roll. I'm much more into it - such that I'm trading my RV4 on a unlimited acro machine later on this summer. I'm looking forward to having the inverted systems and being able to do sustained verticle rolls - mine can only do one. That takes some effort. I'm not complaining though - I love the plane - it's a great little plane. It's a good bet for that fellow looking into getting started in acro. I agree with some of the guys - here's what I alwasy say if you can go to Magic mountain - ride all the coasters - especially the extreme ones without any issues - and want to go on them again and again - front seat - of batman the ride etc... this is very very much like aerobatics - milder but it does give you some sense of what your body will go through so if you LOVE that - you likely will also like aerobatics. Competition is not for everyone though I'm not sure if it's for me either I would love to get a few of the IAC patches though and don't care if I win or not - getting a patch would be so cool. I'm very lucky myself - that aerobatics for me just feels awesome - i know where my limit are - currently I have not gone beyond 4.5G - and no more than about -1 G - as mine does not have the inverted systems. When I get my new plane I plan to go to WA state to Bruce air and get some dual time in his Xtra 300 L - and learn some intermediate manuvers - then go and practice them. It's only 375 per hour! gulp. So maybe 2 - 3 hours! yipe will be a hard sell but I think it will be well worth it.

The fellow that started all this - simply needs to figure out how much he thinks he will get into acro - if he's thinking it's just for a bit of fun - now and again - perhaps - as I'm doing - primary and maybe sportsman catagory - then the RV series is perfect for him. Not like it's hard to sell if he changes his mind. On the other hand if he buys a dedicated Acro machine finds's it's a bit too much for him those are not as easy to sell as they are for a smaller market. I also did 4 - 5 hours in a citabria first before I got my RV4 - although they are different - the fundimentals I learned was enough - and I have been able to do all what I learend in the citabria in the RV4. The citabria has WAY nicer rudder by the way. But it was for me the first loop my instructor did with me - that I knew this was for me! you hear this all the time eh. haha.

I will ask my buddy if he can critque my routine. thanks for that pointer.

RetroAcro
05-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Frank, hope you don't mind some input regarding the Sportsman practice video you posted. Purely constructive, and hope you give the contest a try whether you keep at it or not. I would enjoy the challenge of trying to fly acro as precisely as possible, even if I didn't fly contests.

Hammerhead - Looked like you tried to pivot it as soon as you pulled vertical, and the airplane just rolled way over to the left. I guarantee you the RV-4 will do a good hammerhead. RV-4's have gotten good hammerhead scores at contests. It's such a simple looking figure, but there's a lot going on, and a lot to go wrong. You need to fly the upline much longer, until you have very little vertical speed left. Make sure you have full throttle on the way up. Do not reduce it until maybe you're on the downline, and then only as required for airspeed/RPM management. You will need to add a little right rudder and maybe a little right aileron on the vertical upline near the top to keep the prop from torquing and yawing off vertical. A good ground critiquer on radio can let you know the right instant to apply rudder. This is the most important thing to learn and get a feel for. Apply more right aileron and a little forward stick simultaneous with the full left rudder pivot input and hold it until the nose gets about 45 degrees before vertical down. Full opposite right rudder, neutralize, elevator back to neutral, and THEN center the ailerons. There's a lot going on in a short span, and timing is very critical to a good figure. And draw a perceptible vertical downline. You can do this in the RV-4.

45 upline - You need to cap off the 45 upline to a level line before starting the turn. You started the turn before leveling off, and it looks like a climbing turn. This turn must be level. Also need to establish a min. 60 degree bank before letting the nose move into the turn. You must also keep the nose from dropping with top rudder before you reach your bank angle. Then it's just a coordinated level turn. You need to fully reach your final 180 degree heading before stopping the turn with forward stick and THEN removing the bank. Reverse the process for entering the turn. Roll out on heading and maintain altitude. You did a normal soft turn and started rolling out before reaching your heading.

1-1/4 Spin - you need to draw a perceptible vertical line after stopping the spin. The 1-1/4 spin requires a pitch correction as well as a yaw correction to get the fuselage perfectly vertical after stopping the spin. Check your wingtip the instant the spin stops. If you're spinning right, you'll need to re-apply a little right rudder (after stopping the spin with left rudder) to yaw the fuselage vertical so you don't get called for a "dragged" wing. If you don't do this, your left wing will be high on the downline. All of this applies in the opposite direction if spinning left.

Humpty - Make sure you draw a level line between figures. And everytime you transition from any line (level, 45 deg., or vertical), this must be done at a constant radius. You sorta started to pull out of the spin, hesitated, drew a short line with the nose down, and then pulled straight into the humpty with no level line before. You need to draw a perceptible vertical upline before pulling around the humpty to vertical down...it was barely perceptible. A humpty looks best when done at minimum speed over the top. You can do this much slower. This will also give you longer vertical lines. You had an OK pause on the vertical line down before the 1/4 roll, but the nose pitched up and barreled during the 1/4 roll, and there was no line after the roll. Should still be perfectly vertical down after the 1/4 roll. Any roll on a line must have an equal length line before and after. As far as vertical rolls go, make sure you're perfectly vertical (in pitch AND yaw) before rolling, and then you must practice applying aileron with ZERO elevator input. Due to the differential ailerons on your RV-4, you must also apply a little opposite rudder (right rudder if rolling left) to keep the differential ailerons from yawing the airplane a little when rolling at zero G. Precise vertical rolls are challenging and take lots of practice.

Reverse Cuban - I know you don't have inverted systems, but you can still do an OK figure without them. The reverse cuban is a pull to 45 up, draw a line, half roll to inverted without deviating from attitude or heading, drawing an equal length inverted 45 upline, and then pitching through a round 5/8 loop down to level flight. You drew a long 45 upline, got very slow, and then did a half barrel roll, with the nose ending up way below the horizon as the roll finished. Learn to roll the airplane without deviating from your heading and altitude. This requires top rudder and forward stick through the half roll. So if you'd like to minimize the amount of oil you dump out due to no inverted systems, pull the airplane to a 45 upline, pause for an instant (not much of a line) do the half roll (left for example) while applying right rudder and increasing forward stick to maintain the 45 up attitude. When you complete the half roll, you should still be in the 45 degree up attitude. Pause for another instant (in theory you will be at -0.7G here) and smoothly float around the 5/8th loop down.

Half Cuban - same concept, but the roll is done on a 45 downline instead of an upline. You're starting the half roll before the airplane's nose even reaches an inverted level attitude. You need to wait until you reach an inverted 45 degree attitude before starting the half roll. Again, this will result in very brief negative G exposure, but this will not hurt anything. Caution - do not attempt unless you have received training on this figure as described, and are competent doing level rolls (not positive G rolls with pitch excursions). I'm not sure if you're rolling the way you are because you're trying to avoid zero to negative G at all cost, or because you have not had training in this...or both. If you do a half roll from a 45 degree inverted line using the technique you have been using throughout the video, you will complete the roll in a vertical down attitude and likely exceed redline airspeed. This is very dangerous. I'm only describing the criteria for a proper competition figure. Please get additional training before attempting something you have never done, or are not comfortable with.

Wedge/Sharks Tooth - Same technique as the half cuban, with the exception of a perceptible vertical line before pulling into a radius and establishing a 45 degree inverted downline.

Loop - Not much to say except for that this one is impossible to learn to do well without good ground critiquing and a lot of practice. That being said, almost everyone first learning to do real round loops draws a flat spot on the 2nd quarter of the loop on the way up (not enough additional back stick), and does not float over the top enough, which causes a pinched, cursive "L" looking figure. Think about pitch rate. Say you enter the loop at 150KT and are doing 75KT over the top. In order to have any chance at doing an actual round figure, your pitch rate over the top must be half of what you started with and ended with. Forget wind correction for now. It looks like you have a high pitch rate over the top, which will make it impossible to do a round loop. Also, apply full throttle (if not already in) on the way up and reduce it on the way down only as required by airspeed, RPM management. Lots of folks want to reduce throttle (or even go to idle) once they have reached the top, for fear of overspeeding the airplane on the way down. This will not produce a good looking loop. For a given power setting, it's physically impossible to gain airspeed during a loop, as long as your entry and exit altitudes are the same.

Roll - Again, I know you don't have inverted systems, which may be why you are doing a pitched-up, positive G, non-level roll. But keep in mind that the RV rolls fast enough that you can do a decent level roll from level flight with only momentary exposure to negative G. The engine cutting out for a second is perfectly fine. A couple seconds of oil pressure loss is OK too. This even happens with inverted oil systems as the ball valve moves and redirects oil via the inverted "circuit". The real issue is monitoring oil loss during a sequence. You could possibly lose a couple quarts during a long practice session with lots of negative G exposure. But not during a Sportsman practice sequence where you're minimizing the length of your inverted lines. Just be aware and monitor this. Otherwise, there's no reason to let lack of inverted systems prevent you from flying the figures in a way that would receive decent scores.

You can learn good fundamental aerobatic skills in the RV-4. Keep an eye to the future (and the "unlimited" plane if you want), but don't get ahead of yourself, don't push it, and learn to walk before you run. Good luck, stay safe, and above all, have fun.

AcroGimp
05-29-2012, 03:15 PM
Great critique and suggestions Eric - that is the kind of help that usually costs money - and I will second the suggestion to get as much instruction as you can afford and not move on until you can safely and reliably perform the maneuvers.

I am constantly amazed at just how willing folks in the acro world are to share - helps make us all better and safer and that is the goal.

BruceAir
05-30-2012, 11:17 AM
If you're interested in using one of the RV models for competitive aerobatics, I recommend reading "Approaching Aerobatics," an article by Dick Van Grunsven in the December 2000 issue of Sport Aerobatics (the IAC magazine).

Here's the reference:



Year
Month
Page
Magazine
Article
















2000
12
09
Sport Aerobatics
Approaching Aerobatics by Dick Van Grunsven (4 pgs)






As a member benefit, you can obtain a copy of an EAA-published magazine article listed above, free of charge, by calling EAA Membership Services at 1-800-564-6322. Please have the name of the magazine, year, month and page number ready when calling to make a request. Sorry, we cannot provide reprints of non-EAA magazine articles.

frank_rv4
05-31-2012, 10:25 AM
Thanks for all that - lots for me to make some improvements - I believe I have developed some bad habits for sure - partly because I have no one else to fly with that does aerobatics and I'm new at it as well - just started last august or so and have maybe 25 hours or so doing acro in this plane. As for the hammerhead - why I developed this bad habit - was I knocked out the motor - 2 Times or so - when I first learned the procedure - sure it looked more like a real hammerhead but I took it too far up and when you do that you get what I'll call - Hang time - and the plane is neutral and or going into neg - g - and it dosn't take much in the way of neg g's to cause issues with the engine. probably the same reason I'm quick to flip it over from the inverted - in the cuban 8 as you described - I'm not flying the 45 - downline inverted long enough because of the lack of the inverted systems - mainly the fuel system. every plane maybe different in this respect but my plane reacts quite quickly - there is a little delay I suppose - but it will spit and sputter etc.... and well the next thing is the engine quitting. I only had that happen 2 Times as I mentioned - they talk about it in the book from Neil Williams - and well they also talk about the engine coming back on - on the down line - which is true - but wow - this is scary and not something I would want to practice lots. I'm looking forward in July to getting my CH180 - it's set up properly for aerobatics - and I can learn to do tail slides etc... and much more in the way of inverted stuff. I want to go to WA state and get some more training - and well it would awesome too to be able to attend training camps etc... all that stuff.

But what you have provided is great I'm going to print that off - if I can - and make some notes and practice trying to fix - the "bad habbits" but at the same time be cognisent of the limitations of my plane - and the pretty green pilot. I did all of 4 - 5 hours in a citabria - everything else I've learned myself and or from that book on aerobatics. I had wanted to go last summer to Rocky mountain house but it took much longer to get my C of A completed then I had expected - and cost way more too! leaving me pretty broke - ouch! So I did'nt get to the contest - cause I got my C of A near the end of August or middle of August - I only just started to do aerobatics with it and would of seriously bombed out - probably frustrating myself . Rather than that I would like my first IAC compeitition to be a pleasant experience - I know being green to acro - I'm no expert - up here since i'm the only one well bit of a celb. haha or other's may think I'm just nuts or something - but that's the wrap we get you know. You sit down in the coffee room with all these cessna - piper - talor craft pilots - having flown for 40 years or more - 50,000 hour pilots - you know - and talk about aerobatics?? some of them are cool about it - how's it going up there - etc... other's probably think anyone doing acro is taking unnecceary risks and are being wreckless. It's too bad people or some poeple think that - because personally I feel the aerobatic pilots are the best pilots - as we can manage our way through almost anything - and can handle the plane in many different attitudes. Had I not had acro training - when my engine quit - what would a normal student do? level off - set to glide? may day may day - panic - etc.... what field what direction is the wind? etc... ok now try a restart. I did not do that - I put the plane on the down line - straight down - prop is feathering - mix. rich - throttle open - and it fired right up - all on it's own once Positive G was restablished. (OK the first time this happend - my heart was going just a little). parachutes are optional here! My new plane comes with the hooker harness and a parachute chair he called it.

So thanks a bunch for the comments - I will do some pratice and try doing another video - and sent it to you to see if I've improved. Take care. fly safe.

frank_rv4
05-31-2012, 10:27 AM
I will have to look that one up - I've got a bunch of issues here at my desk but not that one as I've only been a member for 2 years or so.

RetroAcro
05-31-2012, 12:14 PM
...but it will spit and sputter etc.... and well the next thing is the engine quitting. I only had that happen 2 Times as I mentioned - they talk about it in the book from Neil Williams - and well they also talk about the engine coming back on - on the down line - which is true - but wow - this is scary and not something I would want to practice lots.

You obviously have a carb rather than fuel injection. Yeah, a carb will quit delivering fuel the instant you go slightly negative. I'm not suggesting doing anything you're uncomfortable with, but this is really nothing to worry about and is perfectly fine. A little unnerving at first, maybe. I used to have an RV-3 with a carb and would draw very brief negative lines. The engine would quit for about a second, but starts back up as fast as it died as soon as you're back under positive G. As long as the prop keeps turning it will restart. If you have a metal prop, there's a lot of flywheel effect, so it would be just about impossible to get it to stop during flight. I had a wood prop, which has much less flywheel effect, and would be more prone to stoppage if you really delayed the recovery from the negative G line. But it's such brief exposure flying Sportsman-level acro, that this is not a concern. As mentioned, you might throw a little oil, that you'll want to monitor.

If you're going to compete in the RV-4, it's actually better to draw no line before AND after a roll (half cuban for example) than to draw a long positive G line and then no inverted line after (or before). The way the scoring rules are written, you'll get better scores. But you really can draw a perceptible negative line without inverted systems, and maintain the ideal standards for the figures. If you draw no line before and after a roll, the max you could get on the figure is an 8. I've got a buddy who did well in Sportsman with a non-inverted Clipped T-Craft. Just have to get used to the engine quitting a little. Again, if you're not comfortable, don't do it.

Regarding the hammerhead, I used to do these in the RV-3 as well. You can 'cheat' the vertical upline a little to stay a little over zero G. In other words, fly a few degrees short of a true vertical upline. I never had any engine issues during the hammerhead. A good hammerhead is pure technique. If you get on your back a little during the pivot (not maintain the pivot plane), the engine will sag until you load the wings up again.

Anyway, good luck with the CH180. Is it the red/white one for sale on barnstormers? Looks like a unique airplane.

frank_rv4
06-01-2012, 04:57 PM
some more awesome advise - thanks - yes it's that red and white one - canadian AME built it - he also happens to be an aerobatic instructor - he build it for himself. It's quite the performer for the $ - 3000 feet per min in the climb - which is awesome - 910 lb eW - 205HP - so 4.44 lb's per HP . its like brand new with 165TT on engine and airframe. here I can also maintain it myself. Only cavote is I have to fly mine all the way to Quebec to do the trade. that's our deal. it's worth it for me cause for me to put a ellison throttle body or fuel injection on my plane not to meniton christen inverted oil system - I'm still flying an RV4 - even with those systems it's not going to do that well in aerobatics as a true aerobatic plane would. semitrical airfoil - no or very little dehidral - 5lbs per HP or or less - for unlimited cat - plus or minuse 10G etc.... mine will never be that. So we are trading - he's likely selling mine that's fine. I know his is in absoult prestine condition so I'm very lucky I think to have come across it. Pierre will also provide me some tips on things as well - he's already given me the entry speeds for all the manuvers - VNE is 260mh o that thing. amazing. the C of G is fussy though I can't gain too much wieght! darn got to cut out that dark beer! I shoulld have it in July I'll let you know if I get it for sure! thanks for all your help - I will practice these suggestions. I agree you got to fake it a bit. like my spiins for example - I put it into that spin - I make it do what I want. It's not really fake - it's just that I do certain things to make the plane do what it's supposed to. I push forward - to hold it on it's nose down - I hold some alieron and full rudder to get it spinning - etc... I will try some of your other tips for the RV4. see if I can improve that hammerhead too.

willymac
08-19-2012, 04:58 PM
Back to the original question: Can RV's compete in IAC contests? Going through the members only IAC US and Canadian contest results from 2000 to May of this year, I found thirty four (34) RVs have competed. A break down of the aircraft models were: one (1) RV-3, fifteen (15) RV-4s, four (4) RV-6s, three (3) RV-7s, ten (10) RV-8s, and one (1) rocket. Ten (10) competed at the primary level; twenty-three (23) at sportsman level, and one (1) at the intermediate level. The intermediate level competitor flew an RV-8 to 2nd place with a score of 82.4 percent in the Canandian Open 7/21/2006. So the answer is YES. Join an IAC chapter, practice with ground critique, and come have some fun.

frank_rv4
08-21-2012, 10:13 AM
Wonder what he's planning on doing - ? I think it's also got a lot to do with $$ you have to spend - if you have the body - and aspirations to do aerobatics - start with a decatholon or CAB - etc... and move into other types - if you are able to progress. I have an RV4 - it's fun - I plan on competing in primary and hopefully sportsman this fall in rocky mountain house - I've registered. Definetly without a inverted fuel and oil it's a huge issue - I have to be quite carefull not to do damage to my motor and or stall the motor - takes more work to make the figures look nice and keep the engine happy at the same time. I would not really consider even with a full inverted system going beyond the sportsman with my plane. I would love to have a edge 360 - or extra 200 - or 260 etc... and prehaps that will be my next type of plane. I like those harmon rockets and F1 rockets as well but they are built for doing one thing really well that is going fast. faster you go - makes doing acro harder - as it exerts way more presure on the control surfaces etc... and can pull more G's too. Most aerobatic planes are highly manuverable - and very predicatable - stall spin characteristics etc... fast of course but usually for climb more than top speeds. 3000 feet per min - climb rates - etc... 200mph top speeds are prefectly adequate. Start going 250mph - and try staying in a box. So again I say it simply depends on what you want for yourself - and the coin you have to spend. If you want to do competition aerobatics - stick with planes designed for that purpose - if you want a sport plane that can do some aerobatics - then the RV series or HR's are fine for that - but are limited in what they can do re: aerobatics. I'm already hoping that a win fall - comes my way so I can up grade - and hopefully do some dual down in WA state to learn some intermediate aerobatic manuvers.

I did have a look at those F1 kits - compared to say doing a HR 2 - it's more pricy - but I think they are very well designed and built - the QB kits from Team Rocket I believe they are called if they are still in business - are amazing and well worth the coin - since much of the "hard" work has been done for you. wings are mostly completed - fuse mostly completed - etc... still meets the 51% rule though. To build a HR 2 - you get a RV4 kit from Vans - minus some parts and the HR kit from John Harmon - and get ready for about 2years min - of work. 1800 hours anyways. The F1 can be done in about 800 I believe they say. Not sure of the cost difference. I know they have 2 types of wings now - one is the laminar flow - the other is the sport wing - similar to the HR 2 - wing - design - better for acro then the other wing - I believe. there are lots for sale though here and there - and that's a good way to go too - if you can afford that - as you can be up flying quickly that way.

Also recommend - tranisition training - I did 5 hours with Mike Seager in Veronia OR - it was a blast - he's aweseome and very reasonable too. I would not of flown my RV4 without that training. Dido with a HR 2 or other. And consider yourself lucky as there are a lot of places where you can train to do aerobatics - we don't have that luxery here unfortunatly. Best of luck. Let us know what you decide - HR - or RV etc... or other. there are some great deals on some acro machines these days too - Giles - etc... check barnstormers or trade a plane etc... and or any of the local chapters.

RetroAcro
08-21-2012, 04:21 PM
I like those harmon rockets and F1 rockets as well but they are built for doing one thing really well that is going fast....Start going 250mph - and try staying in a box.

Frank, just because an airplane can potentially do 250 doesn't mean you have to do 250 during a sequence. That's what being a pilot is all about...controlling the airplane. No need to use full power either. You can fly the Sportsman figures across a wide range of speeds. You could do the Sportsman sequence in a Rocket just fine without breaking 150 mph if you wanted to. Staying in the box is generally a pilot factor, not an aircraft factor.


If you want to do competition aerobatics - stick with planes designed for that purpose - if you want a sport plane that can do some aerobatics - then the RV series or HR's are fine for that - but are limited in what they can do re: aerobatics.

I can only think of one airplane specifically designed for competition acro - the DR-107 "One Design". The number of acro competitors is minute compared to the number of folks who have an interest in simply having a hot plane and flopping it around a little. My point is that since there is effectively no such thing as an airplane "designed" for competition acro, lots of airplanes are perfectly suitable, depending on the category you'd like to fly. RV's, Stearmans, Cubs, Citabrias, Buckers, etc. can fly Sportsman perfectly well. No need to discount their ability or suitability to fly competition. What folks who are not actually involved with competition don't typically understand is that competition flying isn't much different or any harder on the airplane or the pilot than recreational aerobatics. The difference is that the competition pilot attempts to fly with a high degree of precision - accurate 45 and vertical lines, round loops, level rolls, crisp points, stopping spins on heading, equal line lengths, precise attitudes before/after rolls, staying on heading, staying in the box, etc. All of these things are pilot factors, not airplane factors. I just feel the need to point these things out when folks who have no competition experience start minimizing the capability or suitability of certain airplanes, RV's especially. Ask 'willymac' here how suitable his RV is for competition :) : http://www.usnationalaerobatics.org/IAC/IAC_ContestResults.asp?ContestID=312

WLIU
08-22-2012, 04:00 AM
I will note that one of the most important skills that you must develop for competition acro is precise slow flight. Across the top of a loop or at the top of a vertical line pushing or pulling to level without any sinking to post a high score requires outstanding slow flight skills.

So you must be able to fly your ship well from Vne down to Vs as well as the speeds in between. You can't just leave the throttle in one position and zoom around. Its about doing "that pilot stuff".

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

frank_rv4
08-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Great video - I have Neil Williams book on my Desk! I did take about 5 hours of professional instruction though! And since then I've learned all I can with my current AC and plan to also attend IAC competition near me soon. Some great words from an obvioulsy wise pilot who knows his stuff! Would love to see him in an airshow or at a competition. And be honored to have a chance to be instructed or fly with him. Glad I watched this. Some day I hope also to be as good as you are. I'm only starting out at this point with my RV4 - my 4th plane. Looks like you have or had a Cap232. I'm also into the models - just finished a 30cc size Extra 260 - would love to have a real one. 2402 Here's me in my RV4 - copa for kid's day - same as the young eagles program through AOPA. I think the RV4 is a half decent plane to get started - I first learned in a citabria - it's slightly faster and more capable then that plane but not by much. Some would arugue the citabria is a better plane probalby. personally I like being able to get 1000' of verticle - which mine is capable of. and being able to go 200mph. if I want to. does nice looks and rolls spins nice - excellent recovery - etc... just don't have inverted fuel unfortunatly!! so I have to watch my G's stay in the postive. I'm definetly ready to move up to something better soon.

Saville
04-01-2014, 05:40 PM
http://youtu.be/Wr4KRnqn79E My Rv4 - is very capable of doing up to the sportsman catagory - which is a ton of fun - and the price of these are reasonable - usually 40 - 50 K can get you into a nice RV4. I Hi Frank, I just joined this forum and was interested to read your comments. I'm looking at RV-4's and I see a few in the price range you specify. My question is a bit general with regard to homebuilts: How do I know it wasn't built poorly? Are there checks that can be made before buying any homebuilt that gives you some feeling of security that the builder did a good job? Thanks

jjhoneck
04-01-2014, 06:18 PM
I'm not Frank, but I recently went through the daunting process of finding a quality, pre-built RV. We bought an RV-8A last summer, after a nationwide search.

Best advice: Hire an expert. After noodling around (unsuccessfully) a bit on my own, I hired Tom Berge, a "one stop shop" RV guru from Minnesota who has built many RVs, is a CFI who specializes in RV transition training, is an expert sheet metal craftsman, and knows wiring and avionics.

Each night we would pore over T-A-P photos of RVs for sale on the internet -- him sitting in MN, me in TX. Tom knows enough about RVs to be able to tell if the plane was built according to plans, or if the builder free-lanced some things. He understands and appreciates good workmanship, and was able to steer me away from ones that did not pass his exacting standards.

Here's how it works, from start to finish: Once you find one you both think looks promising, Tom becomes your agent on the ground, doing the prebuy inspections. He will then test fly the plane. (We rejected one at that point, because it had squirrelly stall characteristics, indicating a possible wing anomaly of some sort that could not be seen by looking at the plane.)

If you decide to buy it, he then handles the purchase paperwork for you with the seller. After purchase, he becomes your delivery/ferry pilot. Our plane was in Vermont, and he flew it to his home base in Minnesota, where he made several modifications to the plane for us. (Adding back seat controls; a luggage door arm; doing the nosewheel mod, etc.)

He then delivered it to us in Texas -- where he became our transition trainer, signing us both off after the obligatory 5 hours of dual instruction. (A normal insurance requirement.)

We have been ecstatic with the RV, and we could not have done it without Tom. Even though I had twenty years of piloting, and 17 years of aircraft ownership experience, I felt like a total newbie in the experimental world, and am VERY glad I hired Tom to keep me out of the weeds with bad homebuilt aircraft.

If you want his contact info, let me know!