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View Full Version : Problems Dealing with The New Firewall Forward in Fort Collins, CO?



D Weatherald
12-18-2011, 11:09 AM
Hi all,

Is anyone else having issues with The New Firewall Forward?

I attended Airventure this year and entered the draw that FWF had at their booth. 2 days after i got a call that i had won the draw and was going to recieve an engine overhaul at cost. September 16th I flew the airplane down to them and work progressed. I funded them $10 grand to get work started and order parts including a new intercooler. To date (12/17/2011) they still haven't got the engine back together and many many phone calls have been left unanswered and not returned. I understand that they are in financial difficluty and working week to week keeping the shop going. HELP!

uavmx
12-18-2011, 11:16 AM
you might want to visit in person

Brian Hartwick
12-18-2011, 11:27 AM
Friend had similiar results when he "Won" at Sun-n-Fun.

Bill Greenwood
12-18-2011, 12:14 PM
I have had work done at Firewall in past years. I haven't been there recently, I hear that they have had some financial problems over the past few years ,like a lot of shops/
Firewall in past years came from some of the folks that worked with Demars, who did very good overhauls and engine mods, often for acro and experimental planes.
Where are you located? I am in Colorado and might be able to visit FNL in Jan. I also have a friend that hangars at FNL near there.
I am not sure about all other shop practices, but I don't think it is normal to ask for $10,000 just start work. If they need your cash just to order any parts, that may unfortunately mean that their credit is bad and they can only order parts if they are paid for in cash. I am afraid that is a danger sign.
Good luck. I am thinking about an overhaul next year myself.

D Weatherald
12-19-2011, 09:27 AM
Friend had similiar results when he "Won" at Sun-n-Fun. Did he eventually get things done? What kind of quality did he get and what did it take? I'm thinking of 2 options right now... Lawyer (costly) and shotgun (timely).

D Weatherald
12-19-2011, 09:34 AM
Thanks Bill! I'm somewhat familiar with their past and thats what convinced me to sign up. I liked what i saw in the shop when i arrived. They seemed busy and i counted 6 twins and a Glasair 4... many engines in crates. I couldn't imagine them not having work at the time. I'd love to just drop by but i'm in Saskatchewan Canada and its not just that easy to pick up and go... but if that is what it take i will. I was hoping that someone in the neighborhood might answer this post and be at least able to give me a report that they are open and people are still around working. I'll give you a call. THanks!

Bill Greenwood
12-19-2011, 05:13 PM
D W.
I found a little info on Firewall, actually my friend was there last week. Not many specifics, but they still seem to have the doors open at least, and in business in some form.
Phone me and we can talk about it some more. The best time to get me is after dinner, but you can try anytime, except real early morning.

Brian Hartwick
12-19-2011, 07:01 PM
Did he eventually get things done? What kind of quality did he get and what did it take? I'm thinking of 2 options right now... Lawyer (costly) and shotgun (timely).

I'll send you a PM with his number, he will be glad to speak with you

Bill Greenwood
12-20-2011, 11:38 AM
D W, as of this morning Tue, there is a Cessna 210 parked outside the hangar without an engine on it. It has Canadian registration, CFI etc. and has been there for awhile. There are some men working in the hangar.

D Weatherald
12-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Thanks a million Bill! That is more than likely my bird and knowing that they are there working really settles my nerves. I did finally get a cal back from the shop manager...he has been in court with his now ex-wife. Which explains a lot. Last week when I called the phone company had a 3 day failure (i'm told) and FWF had calling out but not in. e-mail was down too... Made me panick after being told they were having financial difficult!While I'm comfortable for now i'm booking a ticket for the first work day in the newyear that I was promised was the finish up week. Any other info is welcome. I'll keep this post updated. :) '

Bill Greenwood
12-23-2011, 10:22 AM
D W. , unless you want to come to Colo for something else, I think you would be smart to wait until they say the engine is actually finished before you come to FNL. Even many of the best shops take longer than the estimate.
I don't have any idea if they are working on your engine, just that some work is going on there.

FFVENDOR
01-04-2012, 02:42 PM
As a vendor of Firewall Forward we have been trying to get paid for services rendored for almost one year ago. They string us along and string us along and have yet to get any payment. I believe they are on the edge of going under. If it was me, I would proceed with caution. Very disappointing situation and they have always had cash flow issues, and the worst now.

D Weatherald
01-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Update: After getting a couple calls to calm me down and reassure that everything was still in the works - FWF is still very difficult to get a hold of and not at all definitive in describing where the build is at or any definite timeline. After getting a call back on Tuesday Jan 3 the shop manager whom had given me same ol' song and dance that work is happening but still could not reasure me of a date to book my airfare later that week... or even the next week!

Contacted the FAA FSDO hoping for some info.... didn't like the response and can't discuss it publicly for legal reasons they say.

Don't give my chances at getting warranty work done much over .01%... assuming that i'd even try. :rollseyes:

vaflier
01-05-2012, 07:52 PM
Perhaps it is time to pay them a visit and see for your self where things stand. It is entirely possible that you are dealing with a good company that is just having a bit of a struggle in this lousy economy. While there have been a number of posts of a negative tone it just may be that they are in fact building you a fantastic engine. I hate to do buiness over the phone and the internet. Go see them and look them in the eye when you ask about your engine. Their eyes will tell you a lot and you may find that your concerns while understandable just may be put to rest. Your peace of mind may just be worth the cost of a ticket to fly there. Just a thought. Best of luck and hope all ends very well.

Fuelman
02-09-2012, 12:16 PM
Mr Weatherald, That is your 210 sitting outside of the Firewall Hanger.I own Front Range Fuel Systems and I work in that hanger also, I don't know what the timeline for you engine to be completed is but I will be the pilot doing the test flying of it when it is done. I don't know how serious you were about your shotgun method for getting your engine completed but I can tell you that would be a very bad idea on your part. If you give me an email address I will be happy to keep you informed as to any progress made on your engine.

Bill Greenwood
02-09-2012, 01:02 PM
Fuelman, what do you mean by "your shotgun method"?
I don't know Mr. Weatherwald, and I am not directly involved other than as a former customer of Firewall Forward; but I sure don't see what the owner of the 210 has to be faulted on. He won a drawing at EAA for an overhaul at cost?, same one lot's of us entered,and he delivered his plane to Firewall. What's wrong with that? He also says he fronted them $10,000 and while I may be wrong I don't think most overhaul shops ask for payment in advance. After all they have his engine and his plane as security, if they need cash in advance it seems to indicte that they may not have good credit and only be on a cash basis with suppliers.
The burden seems to be on Firewall to do what they said they will. I hope they do, and maybe they will. It is not uncommon to have repairs take longer than estimated on most anything, airplane, car, house, etc., but it has been almost 2 months since he started this thread, so it has been awhile. I wonder what progress, if any has been made other than to cash his check.

As for you test flying his airplane, why would that happen? Do you have the owners permission to do that, and will you be covered by his insurance? Is there any reason the owner cannot fly his own plane?
I know when I had my plane at a shop, I wouldn't want someone else flying it unless I agreed to it in advance,and my insurance would not cover someone else unless they had 25 hours in same make and model. Maybe you own or have lot's of 210 time, I know I don't have that.

Fuelman
02-09-2012, 01:49 PM
Bill, if you read post #5 from Mr Weatherald he is the one that brings up the shotgun. I hope that Firewall will also do what they have promised but when I see someone make a statement that could be construed as a threat against my friends I tend take it seriously. As far as test flying the plane goes even if I am not sitting in the left seat I go along for all the test flights due to the fact that I am a pilot and I was trained by Firewalls former test pilot to ovbserve how the engine operates and know what adjustment will be required to optimize its performance, I can also say that he was informed that there would be test flying involved when he signed the statement of work to have an engine overhaul and installation completed at Firewall. Reguardiing his insurance, I always talk to the owner about that prior to flying and if I am not covered by his insurance I don't fly the airplane. That said I have yet to not be covered by someones policy.

D Weatherald
02-11-2012, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=Fuelman;10942] when I see someone make a statement that could be construed as a threat against my friends I tend take it seriously. QUOTE]

I guess you could take that as a threat if you have absolutely no sense of humor and i had absolutely no brains! Obviously if i was wanting to inflict real damage here i'd use the lawyer!!! Certainly i'd love to let a little salt buckshot fly around there and with this bungee cord they have me on i've earned it :)

D Weatherald
02-11-2012, 09:54 AM
Update: Just for full disclosure on my part, this overhaul started on August 16th when the plane C-F10T was delivered to the front door of FireWall Forward. The contract reads "shall be completed in a period of 21 to 37 days". The books and keys were handed over to Tom Lawson Sales Manager and he gave me the full tour of the shop and i met many of the employees.

That means that i should have recieved the aircraft back by September 7th to the 23rd! We are almost at 5 months. My vacation plans in Florida have been ruined over and above.

If anyone wants to call and offer anything please call 306-577-7416 or write me at weatherald@sasktel.net

Harper
03-11-2012, 02:44 PM
If nothing else, those of us who have been scammed by these crooks should be doing something to get the word out to protect others.
It is a tough call. I suppose like some, we are still hopeing to get something back from them. Although if we do, I'm just not sure I would trust their work
since I know I can't trust their business ethics.

Gerry

D Weatherald
03-14-2012, 11:00 PM
Down to the wire: 2 weeks ago i flew down to KFNL in my old 210 and walked in the front door....

After several conversations in January on the phone with Mr. Josh Critchfield about the condition and progression throught the overhaul process of my engine, i was somewhat satisfied that if/when I went to FWF i might find an engine that was going to be alright. Zach Johnston (aka FuelMan in this post) wrote me an email and i returned his call. Zach peaked my intrest when he informed me that my engine was in paint. The trouble with his comments were that Josh had just told me that it was in the assembly shop with the crank, cam, and case all together and that they were putting jugs on and may have all 6 completed shortly!

Everything that i have been told from the people in this shop has been 100% BULLSHIT!!! and i walked in and saw this with my own 2 eyes. For starters, the crank case wasn't even on the property, the intercooler that i supposedly paid them to order wasn't ordered let alone there, the 6 new ECI cylinders weren't ordered and every significant part of the engine had been shipped out to have the work done. My engine was mostly just a bunch of nuts and bolts on a cart that hadn't been touched in months. To top all this off my aircraft has been sitting outside in the weather for 6 months. The deice boots have been weathering and the windshield hotplate crazing in the sun. I came to learn from the people on the airport that FWF doesn't own the hangar only leases and has lost most of its floor space in a renegotiation with the landlord. They are only left with room for 2 aircraft in back corners according to Josh. My $24,000 paid to make progress is gone in this Ponzi scheme and shell game.

I was provided with a number of invoices and i did make all the calls to these suppliers. Many were shocked by the story and have been wondering/concerned why my parts have been sitting on the shelves. Most said that they've had a good relationship with FWF and will be paid when UPS delivers as FWF has to pay to recieve the parts COD... Today Josh admitted that the ECI shipment was returned due to lack of funds and that he wants more time... Once again breaking his word that he would have me out of the shop on the 15th of march.... Anyone interested in meeting me there shortly? Call 1-306-577-7416 or e-mail weatherald@sasktel.net

As a friend pointed out "Beware the Ides of March". FAA?

Bill Greenwood
03-16-2012, 09:27 AM
I wish I could say that Firewall has all their problems worked out and is back to the good shop they once were, but I can't.

The best I can say is that David's C-210 has been pulled inside the shop; I don't know if that indicates any real progress or not.
Another friend just got his plane back after overhaul that was promised for a month and took 4 months, and had some minor problems on first runs, which may be ok now.

16FW
04-08-2012, 09:12 AM
I "won" as overhaul at cost at Sun-N-Fun last week. The price didn't seem much cheaper than shops closer to me, so I did a search, and found this.

D Weatherald, did you get your plane back yet? I am getting a little skeptical about this place :-(

Racegunz
04-08-2012, 12:14 PM
16fw if you are just now beginning to get skeptical I will honor your drawing: fwd me 12k (for parts from vendors of course) and fly your airplane to me and leave the keys ect. I'll get back with you in due time. Seriously??

D Weatherald
04-09-2012, 10:18 PM
Today i flew the last leg of the journey home. Wasn't without some minor problems... lost the alternator when a terminal broke off and upon landing at International Peace Gardens for customs the nose wheel went flat. No services there so i had to do some scrambling to get on the way again. Whew!:rollseyes:

Here's how i got to this point. As my last post pointed out March 15 was agreed upon to be "delivery" day : Didn't happen that wednesday due to issues with the plane they were working on ahead of mine (C340). Josh asked if it would be ok to put it off till the following monday and then i agreed to wednesday as i was in contact with that owner. So ... I called monday to confirm my airline ticket date with Josh but got no return call. Tried him again in the afternoon and again tuesday morning with no response. So i jumped in the truck and flew to Denver Tuesday afternoon. Arriving at FWF i was greeted with a crankshaft standing on the build stand and the aircraft, as Bill said above, was inside! Hey progress!! Not exactly as promised but i saw progress for the first time.

Well to make a long story ... I announced that I was there till it was airworthy and set about keeping busy and getting comfortable with the place. Personally took on the job of cleaning up the firewall and inside the cowlings to make a neat appearance. Every day i'd stick my nose in the build shop doors to see how the construction was going and was pleasantly greeted and made conversation with the Mechanics. Overall i was impressed with the expertise that Tom, Glen, Frank and Kevin have. These guys are not the problem with this shop at all. The build took 6 buisness days!!! Amazing how this went together. It could have been quicker but there were several delays when parts didn't show up as promised (the Alternator took 5 days of Josh saying it'd "be here tomorrow".)

I arrived on March 20th and the engine (fully installed) was flown out on April 4th!

In summary:
I "won" this overhaul "at cost"... Supposedly this was to generate work for a slack time and improve buisness with word of mouth advertising all while the economy is in a hole. Don't think this really panned out as management planned?

The cost of the work performed is still not clear and defined. We had a contract and discussions of what was to happen but almost 8 months in the process and a scramble for parts to complete... it was just a piece of paper. At no time did i feel informed about the progress or issues found with my project! The statement has one lump sum for labor based off the original contract... i paid just to get out as fast as i could (without lawyers fees). I did get a little less than 10% off by negotiating with Josh over the troubles i had with them but in the end the quotes i got from other shops are not that much out of line.

All in all i'm satisfied with the finished product now that i've flow it for 6 hours. CHT's have come down to very nice levels and it is running smooth and powerful. NO LEAKS whatsoever and its used 1 quart of oil. Wires and hoses are all new and tidy (one mishap with the alt terminal but nobodys perfect) ... And i looks good :D

Will i go back? NO.
Warranty: Self administered with the suppliers- Labor $$$

Questions? feel free to ask.

SWeidemann
04-11-2012, 01:22 PM
Today I talked to Tom Lawson from TNFWF who had earlier claimed I was a winner of the "Overhaul for Cost" drawing at Sun N Fun last week and got back to me today with some prices. Turns out their "discounted" overhaul would be several thousand dollars more than the three quotes I already had (Buldoc, Don's Dream Machines & Poplar Grove). That, along with all the negative experiences mean I'm back to where I was before I got my hopes up.

Thanks folks,

Skot

n801bh
04-11-2012, 03:08 PM
Today i flew the last leg of the journey home. Wasn't without some minor problems... lost the alternator when a terminal broke off and upon landing at International Peace Gardens for customs the nose wheel went flat. No services there so i had to do some scrambling to get on the way again. Whew!:rollseyes:

Here's how i got to this point. As my last post pointed out March 15 was agreed upon to be "delivery" day : Didn't happen that wednesday due to issues with the plane they were working on ahead of mine (C340). Josh asked if it would be ok to put it off till the following monday and then i agreed to wednesday as i was in contact with that owner. So ... I called monday to confirm my airline ticket date with Josh but got no return call. Tried him again in the afternoon and again tuesday morning with no response. So i jumped in the truck and flew to Denver Tuesday afternoon. Arriving at FWF i was greeted with a crankshaft standing on the build stand and the aircraft, as Bill said above, was inside! Hey progress!! Not exactly as promised but i saw progress for the first time.

Well to make a long story ... I announced that I was there till it was airworthy and set about keeping busy and getting comfortable with the place. Personally took on the job of cleaning up the firewall and inside the cowlings to make a neat appearance. Every day i'd stick my nose in the build shop doors to see how the construction was going and was pleasantly greeted and made conversation with the Mechanics. Overall i was impressed with the expertise that Tom, Glen, Frank and Kevin have. These guys are not the problem with this shop at all. The build took 6 buisness days!!! Amazing how this went together. It could have been quicker but there were several delays when parts didn't show up as promised (the Alternator took 5 days of Josh saying it'd "be here tomorrow".)

I arrived on March 20th and the engine (fully installed) was flown out on April 4th!

In summary:
I "won" this overhaul "at cost"... Supposedly this was to generate work for a slack time and improve buisness with word of mouth advertising all while the economy is in a hole. Don't think this really panned out as management planned?

The cost of the work performed is still not clear and defined. We had a contract and discussions of what was to happen but almost 8 months in the process and a scramble for parts to complete... it was just a piece of paper. At no time did i feel informed about the progress or issues found with my project! The statement has one lump sum for labor based off the original contract... i paid just to get out as fast as i could (without lawyers fees). I did get a little less than 10% off by negotiating with Josh over the troubles i had with them but in the end the quotes i got from other shops are not that much out of line.

All in all i'm satisfied with the finished product now that i've flow it for 6 hours. CHT's have come down to very nice levels and it is running smooth and powerful. NO LEAKS whatsoever and its used 1 quart of oil. Wires and hoses are all new and tidy (one mishap with the alt terminal but nobodys perfect) ... And i looks good :D

Will i go back? NO.
Warranty: Self administered with the suppliers- Labor $$$

Questions? feel free to ask.

Wow.... What a story... If these guys running that dog and pony show don't end up shot, they at least need to be in jail... Geez... 6 months to overhaul a motor in a 210 ????? They must be Bernie Madoffs relatives..:eek:

16FW
04-11-2012, 03:30 PM
Today I talked to Tom Lawson from TNFWF who had earlier claimed I was a winner of the "Overhaul for Cost" drawing at Sun N Fun last week and got back to me today with some prices. Turns out their "discounted" overhaul would be several thousand dollars more than the three quotes I already had (Buldoc, Don's Dream Machines & Poplar Grove). That, along with all the negative experiences mean I'm back to where I was before I got my hopes up.

Thanks folks,

Skot
I would stay away from Don's Dream Machines too.

Here is Tom Lawson's number, if anyone is interested. I also "won" a overhaul at cost at Sun-N-Fun. I am glad I found this thread.
970-420-1798

SWeidemann
04-11-2012, 03:49 PM
I would stay away from Don's Dream Machines too.Here is Tom Lawson's number, if anyone is interested. I also "won" a overhaul at cost at Sun-N-Fun. I am glad I found this thread.970-420-1798 So....do you have any experience with Don's? BTW he was recommended by one oft regular Luscombe suppliers.I would like to know.Skot

Bill Greenwood
04-11-2012, 06:21 PM
It would likely be a good idea to check the survey of overhaul shops that was done by Aviation Consumer in the last year. Firewall Forward was definitely not one one the approved ones. Two I recall were the one at Zephy Hills, Florida, and Penn Yan up in the northeast, think it has gotten good reviews for awhile.

A C also had a recent survey of good paint shops.

16FW
04-11-2012, 06:21 PM
So....do you have any experience with Don's? BTW he was recommended by one oft regular Luscombe suppliers.I would like to know.Skot
PM sent

16FW
04-11-2012, 06:25 PM
It would likely be a good idea to check the survey of overhaul shops that was done by Aviation Consumer in the last year. Firewall Forward was definitely not one one the approved ones. Two I recall were the one at Zephy Hills, Florida, and Penn Yan up in the northeast, think it has gotten good reviews for awhile.

A C also had a recent survey of good paint shops.
I could use a good paint shop :-)

The other shop was listed Mattituck (I think it is spelled) the 4th was on the west coast.

Fox Charlie
04-13-2012, 04:43 PM
I too have been a victim of The New Firewall Foreward. I took my Pitts up there in November for an overhaul, and I just got it back today (April 13). They told me it would take 4-6 weeks, and it took about 5 months of lies and missed delivery dates. I give instruction in this plane as well as thrill rides, so I've lost a lot of revenue because of this. Most of the time, they will not answer your calls, and then they will not call you back when they say they will. I finally had to talk to a lawyer and threaten them with a lawsuit before I saw any results. I was beginning to wonder if I would ever see my airplane again. Josh Richfield is the general manager, and he is a lying crook. He should be selling used cars in Vegas. Tom Lawson is the Sales rep., and he is also a lying crook. He was very helpful is getting me the quote, answering my phone calls with questions, Etc. He even flew me home in his personal airplane when I took my plane up there. After he received my deposit.........No more help from him....period. None. These scumbags have no business dealing with airplanes.

Here is the unfortunate thing; the mechanics do good work. Its not their fault that they are being managed by scumbags. My engine is flawless. It runs great, and it was put together perfectly. The shop is just being managed by liars. If they would just tell their customers the truth, I would not be writing this.

Mike Switzer
04-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Here is the unfortunate thing; the mechanics do good work. Its not their fault that they are being managed by scumbags. My engine is flawless. It runs great, and it was put together perfectly. The shop is just being managed by liars. If they would just tell their customers the truth, I would not be writing this.

And if the employees know what is going on they are probably looking for new jobs. I had a job I really liked, didn't pay quite as much as I wanted but I liked the job & the people I worked with. I found out that they weren't paying their bills, it was so bad the steel suppliers had the company on COD delivery terms, the drivers wouldn't allow the trucks to be unloaded until they had cash in hand - CASH, not a company check, because the company had "paid" them before with bad checks. I managed to get out of there before the owner went bankrupt.

volney21771
04-17-2012, 09:09 AM
I have been a customer and had my engine overhauled at The New Firewall forward this past Sept 2011 and just now comming forward with my opinion, hopefully to help others. DON'T TAKE YOUR ENGINE THERE (Unless you wan't to risk TNFF closing their doors in bankruptcy and trapping your engine/plane for years as litigation winds it way through the courts. Most everything I've seen posted on the net from sources EAA & other wbsites has happened to me. I feel lucky to have gotton my plane back, however the engine runs fine except for the oil leaks. I've had similar problems and cannot dispute any of the negative posts I've read. I'm not going to post any of my problems as others have already done a surperb job in depictiing all the lies & deceptions. Yes, I have contacted an attorney & the FAA about my problems with them. Just read all the blogs and believe that what was posted is there to help you. Again, in my opinion, it will be one of the biggest mistakes of your life to do business with The New Firewass Forward in Ft. Collins.

flight school
06-12-2012, 02:06 PM
3.5 weeks ago I had a prop strike on a 172. This airplane is essential to income, and it was vital to get the airplane flying again. Firewall took the job and immediately went to work. My case was gone within 48 hours. Divco flipped the case very quickly in their terms. Firewall floated the repair while I waited for insurance money. At 3.5 weeks I had a fully put together engine which was running way better than when I originally gave it to them. Glenn, Kevin, and Frank worked on my engine, and those guys know their stuff inside and out. They are absolutely amazing with that engine. The 172 is now back in the air and students love the performance. I am grateful for their work. Excellent mechanics. I am sorry everyone has had a rough time with them, but that was not my experience at all.

kmacht
06-14-2012, 06:19 AM
A first time poster with no name or location listed suddenly praising this company. That doesn't look suspicious....

Keith

n801bh
06-15-2012, 06:13 AM
A first time poster with no name or location listed suddenly praising this company. That doesn't look suspicious....

Keith


Just a little bit...:confused::confused:;)

D Weatherald
08-19-2012, 08:57 AM
Post Airventure 2012 and after all these good posts about how many problems and issues there are with The New Firewall Forward still EAA gave them a booth to defraud more good people in the aviation community. One would think that with attendance dropping like a rock that the EAA would want to aid in the ever challenging environment out there by getting dirty operations out of such a premier show but with all my efforts the crooks were still set up to DEFRAUD people. Shame!!! In case they don't think it effects them ... my membership will never be renewed. Period.

For anyone that was unlucky enough to "Win" the engine overhaul at cost... please give me a call. WHATEVER you do don't take your plane to them!!!

Bill Greenwood
08-21-2012, 11:33 AM
D. Weatherald, did you ever call or inform EAA in any way about your trouble with Firewall Forward before the convention?

Are you the man from Canada with the Cessna 210, and if so, what finally happened with your plane?

FlyingRon
08-21-2012, 11:40 AM
You missed it. They had a booth in one of the inside hangars. I just snickered as I went by.
The EAA doesn't give much of a hoot about scamsters. They allowed some scam "You won a free trip" operation to collect names under false pretenses there a few years ago. With the general decline in aviation and Airventure as a whole, the whole building will be populated with scamsters, frying pan salesman, and nutritional supplement dealers. It's going to be harder and harder to distinguish Airventure from the state fair.

n801bh
08-22-2012, 01:53 AM
You missed it. They had a booth in one of the inside hangars. I just snickered as I went by.
The EAA doesn't give much of a hoot about scamsters. They allowed some scam "You won a free trip" operation to collect names under false pretenses there a few years ago. With the general decline in aviation and Airventure as a whole, the whole building will be populated with scamsters, frying pan salesman, and nutritional supplement dealers. It's going to be harder and harder to distinguish Airventure from the state fair.

Yeah... As I walked past that booth I saw they had a sucker lined up in their sights.. I proceeded to say out loud. " I hope it doesn't take a year to get your motor finished" and walked off.... The look on the salesmens face was priceless.

D Weatherald
08-23-2012, 08:53 AM
Hi Bill ... yes i'm the Ct210 owner from Canada. I flew in to check on mixed messages they gave me (and no headway) in February. Cost me $4000 to get my ol' 60' 210 annual done so i could fly it... from that meeting i was furious!!! The skuz ball manager gave me his word that it would be finished and ready to pick up by March 15th... I flew in March 17th and it was just moved into the hangar, Nothing else... Stayed for 2 weeks overseeing the work being done personally. Helped with the prep and install, did the test flight with the chief AI and flew home after a difficult settling of the bill. Only good news is they seemed to have lost one of the checks for $3000 and we agreed to drop it as i was never going to write a replacement! Cancelled!!

I can personally take credit for 4 engines that they had and lost from owners that were going to be caught in the web... Hope i can help more as i wouldn't want anyone to have to go through what i've been throught. DON'T TAKE your engine there!!!

I did contact EAA directly ... they informed me that they were definitely watching this thread but couldn't get involved for leagal reasons and that i would be best served by keeping this post going. FWF had a booth in hangar D in the NW corner but they were not listed in the exibitors list (at least on the Airventure app anyway)

D Weatherald
08-23-2012, 08:58 AM
Thank you!!! I wanted to do the same thing but my Girlfriend dragged me away to avoid a conflict.

Bill Greenwood
08-23-2012, 11:27 AM
I think you missed my point as for as your contacting EAA. I did not expect them to get directly involved in negotiations or any settlement between you and Firewall. That is not their place, they are not a legal firm representing one side in any business dispute, even if they could know who and what to believe.

But, EAA can and I think should exert some oversight over those who display and sell at Oshkosh or Sun N Fun, etc. I tried to phone EAA before Airventure this year, but the lady in charge of vendors was always on the phone or could not be reached.

When I was at Oshkosh, I looked in the program for Firewall and did not see them listed, so I assumed they were not there this year, and didn't think much more of it.

I did finally speak to her two days ago, and she was not aware of this complaint topic on this forum , but seemed interested and receptive. I don't know if that is just the public face or if EAA really will restrict Firewall from future vendor displays.

By the way, Flying Ron, I don't think EAA "gives" someone a booth, I think they rent them. EAA can't know the validity of each firm exhibitiing, but once there are a lot of complaints they should uphold some standards.

Kevin O'Halloran
08-23-2012, 01:49 PM
FWF would love to have EAA tell them they cannot have a booth !!!
They would have a lawsuit in about 2 seconds--And EAA would probably end up paying $$$$$ just to get out of the lawsuit.---unless FWF has been convicted of fraud, etc---EAA hands are pretty much tied as what they can do.
People lost millions on deposits of eclipe jets---you don't see people getting pissed at EAA over that one.
FWF days are numbered in the market place
Kevin

D Weatherald
08-24-2012, 09:47 AM
I think you missed my point as for as your contacting EAA..

Yes i got your intended question.... My conversation with EAA was that they shouldn't be allowing FWF to have a booth at the show... certainly not in the main pavilions!

D Weatherald
08-24-2012, 09:54 AM
Certainly they can tell anyone that they can or cannot display at their show!!! Try and put your widgets in Walmart and see what they have to say about it. They have the right to refuse service to anyone they see fit... but the all mighty buck sometimes has more power than the squeeky wheel.

And yes FWF has been taken to court many times and has been able to make "other" arrangements before the courts have had the power to shut them down. The owners of this buisness are Lawyers from Chino Calif... and they are really good at this ponzi scheme!!!

Air.1
09-20-2012, 07:24 PM
I joined EAA today so I can warn others about these crooks and add my tale of woe to everyone elses. My name is Pete Onorato and my phone number is (775) 721-8803. Let me tell you how TOM LAWSON and JOSH CRITCHFIELD of The New Firewall Forward stole $3000.00 from me: The gear driven generator on my O-300 came apart and broke the ring gear and put broken teeth in the engine. My mechanic, having done business with Firewall Forward many years ago recommended them for a teardown inspection. Tom Lawson gave him a quote of $6000.00, said that he needed half up front and that they would send out a shipping crate to Carson City right away. This was July 30. He called back when the crate still hadn't arrived by August 15 and was told, "The truck broke down." That put my BS meter off the scale, so I did what I should have done in the first place- google them. Well, you know what I discovered in addition to the F rating from the BBB. I went to my bank that day to stop payment, but the check had cleared that morning. I spoke to Tom on 8/15 to cancel the job and he told me they would refund my money. A week later, 8/23, Tom told me the check would be sent out tomorrow and I should have it early next week. A week later, 8/30, Tom said he would look into it and get back to me. On 8/31, I spoke to Josh. He told me, "We're cutting the check today." On 9/2, I sent certified demand letters to both Firewall Forward and their registered agent, CR Miles. I have not had a response. I also filed a complaint with the BBB and the Colorado AG's office. My only option now is the courts, which I will pursue. I want to correct the gentleman that said these guys should be selling used cars in Las Vegas. I lived in Las Vegas. Used car dealers there have far more integrity than these lowlifes.

Update: I got a refund of $2625.00 from Firewall Forward 9/27. They kept $375 to cover the shipping of the engine crate, which is fine with me.

FlyingRon
09-21-2012, 03:05 AM
I
By the way, Flying Ron, I don't think EAA "gives" someone a booth, I think they rent them. EAA can't know the validity of each firm exhibitiing, but once there are a lot of complaints they should uphold some standards.

I never said the EAA "gives" someone a booth. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Back when exhibit space was tighter they used to do EXACTLY that. You didn't get an inside spot unless you had a track record. Now they are so desperate to fill up the space, they'll rent to anybody without any consideration to whether they are spammers, aviation related, or anything

Bill Greenwood
09-24-2012, 10:45 PM
Flying Ron, my post had the wrong poster, sorry about that. It was D. Weatherald that wrote "still EAA gave them a booth", not you.

I had the words and thought correct, but not the person.

And my reply is the same, EAA rented the booth, not gave it.

Out of curiosity, I asked my Son Charles who is a lawyer about the case. Now, I only gave him a brief 2 min summary and he is a criminal lawyer, an assistant district attorney, not a civil one, so it is really an educated guess, but he has been to Oshkosh and is familiar.

Charles didn't think that EAA would be liable for any bad business practice of Firewall, just because letting them rent a commercial space at Osh.

I'd be interested to know if there are any civil lawyers here on the forum that have an opinion, pro bono of course, please don't send me a bill.

Matt Hatfield
07-11-2013, 05:51 PM
Just a warning to any aircraft owners that are looking for an engine shop for their next overhaul. If you are considering the New Firewall Forward shop in Loveland Colorado take it from someone that has dealt with them for the last two years, save yourself a lot of grief and avoid this shop at all possible costs. In addition to all of the other problems with them listed on the EAA forum I can attest that their engine warranties are not worth the paper they are written on. I have been promised reimbursement for warranty work that was done on my engine two years ago and have never seen a single dime, just a lot of check is in the mail promises. Then when I had a cylinder not pass the annual due to low compression there response is that the excessive cylinder wear is not covered under their warranty. Apparently nothing is covered under their warranty, its simply a piece of paper they give you if you are foolish enough to use this shop. Nothing I can do about it unless I want to litigate, but I want to forwarn as many of my fellow pilots as possible to avoid this shop no matter what price they give you!

Cary
07-11-2013, 09:24 PM
The "old" Firewall Forward was a top notch shop--but like Eddie Murphy's movie, "The Distinguished Gentleman", the name isn't necessarily the same business. I have no kick with the New FF, because I have never done business with them. But let me suggest that if you're going to get engine work done in Northern Colorado, consider Aircraft Cylinders & Engines in Greeley. Joe is a wizard with engines; he built mine some 500 hours ago, and I'm still satisfied. The actual build took awhile--I think almost 3 months, as he searched for appropriate parts. But once done, he must have asked me weekly how it was running, and he still does--and that was 8 1/2 years ago! I had some problems early on with the starter that he'd installed, and he pulled it and had a new one installed within a couple days.

Cary

carlmatt
07-15-2013, 11:30 AM
We were about to take our engine to FFW for a premature overhaul because of the crap shop overhaul the we got from Front Range Executive-Bill Heiss. One cylinder developed a crack during the break-in and the second cylinder popped its top last week at 275 SMOH (IO-360-KB)... In the shop 5 times for oil leaks.
call carl at 3038845884 denver

carlmatt
07-15-2013, 11:33 AM
Call Carl if you have had a good or bad experience with FFW. 3038845884 denver

carlmatt
07-15-2013, 12:18 PM
Call carl at 3038845884

n801bh
07-16-2013, 01:02 AM
What was the phone number again?? :)
:confused:

D Weatherald
07-20-2013, 09:47 AM
Pre-Airventure 13' update. Engine is doing fine and the second annual inspection is coming up shortly. No oil burn to speak of!!! In fact its so little I'm concerned. I have however had 2 occurrences of the turbo coking and had to cancel 2 flights. No damage and minimal downtime. Can now say that the breakin is complete with a couple 10 hour trips to WI and 16 hours to Ottawa Canada... Flying over Ontario is serious business, Lots of water rocks and trees... and a really long way between airports. Bill is correct that they would never "give" TNFF a booth, they would have to pay a rental/lease fee for the spot. What I'm shocked at is the fact that they wouldn't refuse them after such problems that EAA patrons are having with them. Customer service at EAA has obviously turned a blind eye on this issue in favor of the $$$ for the booth... and I think its costing Airventure more in lost memberships and patrons than what they gain in dealing with one bad apple!!! If you do attend DON"T GIVE THEM YOUR ENGINE! Its a trap.

Skyguy
07-21-2013, 10:33 PM
You guys are missing this BIG TIME.....

I have a FWF engine and it runs fine.

With no complaints about turn time.

With no complanits about cost.

D Weatherald
02-23-2014, 10:32 AM
Update. At this years annual we discovered that the fuel pump was pouring fuel down the back of the engine accesory case...and has been for some time. This is why I refused to pay the total bill!!! I did not even call to discuss warranty. This makes the 3rd fuel issue I've witnessed from this shop. A 180 with carb pouring fuel after shutdown, Lancair 4p with silicon in the distribution spider causing shutdown at full power and my fire hazard.

Infidel
02-23-2014, 07:43 PM
Good thread and thanks for keeping it alive.

Fuelman
03-13-2014, 07:18 PM
Dennis, before you blame Firewall for your fuel pump you may want to look at your records. You will notice that your fuel system is a T.C.M. factory overhauled unit. Firewall had nothing to do with that other than installing it on your engine. The Cessna 180 with the carburetor actually came to me and my shop to get the leaking problem solved. He again had absolutely noting to do with Firewall. The carburetor problem was due to the fact that the pilot was running Mogas and because of the shape of the induction and the vaporization rate of the auto fuel that particular engine will leak mogas on shutdown. He now uses Mogas in one tank and 100ll in the other and switches to the 100ll before landing which has solved his problem. I don't have any explanation for the silicone in the Lancair but his fuel system wasn't opened up during the work done on his engine. While I have no love for Firewall I do respect their mechanics and I ask that you understand the situation that you are referring to before you spread falsehoods on this thread.

D Weatherald
03-13-2014, 08:59 PM
Zach anything and everything that was given to me from the management of this shop is worthless! I don't disagree with you that a few of the mechanics are standup guys. I do have strong suspicions that you're disgruntled and quite possibly having troubles getting paid? Don't forget that I have had to "live" at the shop for weeks in order to get anything done... I've witnessed enough to be more than credible.

Fuelman
03-13-2014, 09:43 PM
I know that you have plenty of things to be credible about when it comes to your experience with firewall so instead of describing things on this thread that are the problem of T.C.M or a customer getting a problem fixed that was not caused by firewall. Firewall and I have parted ways and I am very happy that I have done so but a two year old leaking fuel pump that was overhauled by a completely different company is not their problem, call TCM and see what they will do to fix it and don't try and blame a company that isn't at fault on this issue or have this particular warranty to cover. By all means continue to describe the lousy service you received but why talk bad about this when you have legitimate things to tell the world.

CaliforniaTR182
01-07-2016, 11:31 AM
This thread is from a long time ago, so i'm adding a little summary of our positive experience with The New Firewall Forward, for those that are looking at engine overhauls:


-----


As the new owners of a older cessna turbo 182rg, which we got with a run out engine, we spent a while looking at different shops for the rebuild project.


Our first instinct was to use a local shop, so that we could check on the progress of the work. We met with and talk to quite a few places across Southern California. We also thought about doing an engine exchange and having our local shop install it.


Knowing that our plane sat for a long time before we bought it, we were worried about the gremlins they could be hiding in the project.


At the end of the day we selected Frank and Tom from the new firewall forward because of their expertise and their commitment to quality. We spent a lot of time on the phone with them talking through the details especially in light of the mixed reviews they'd had in the past.


Tom came and ferried the plane back to Colorado to their shop, and they did all the work. Originally the project was scheduled for 6 to 8 weeks, knowing that every project have some uncertainty. In the end it took 8 weeks plus another week to schedule time to get it the plane back to Los Angeles. We also ended up having to redo the exhaust system which was rusted out. Tom and Frank sent it out to the shop to get done at cost. We also had them install a JPI 900, which is been very helpful both for the break-in of the engine as well at the monitor overall performance.


First impressions were great (and continue). Tom flew the plane out to our hangar, since we didn’t have time to go pick it up. Then he walked us through everything they did, the functioning of the JPI, and took us up for a couple test flights together. The engine looked like it was brand new, painted, all the cables and wires perfectly tied down.


We have flown about 150 hours since the New firewall forward rebuilt our engine. Compressions have been very strong across the board. Temps have been quite even (~50 degrees). Engine starts every time without any problems (thanks to the new starter they recommended and put in). We’ve called them a few times with questions and they’ve always been quick to answer. We had one problem with a bad wiring harness from JPI which was hard to troubleshoot. They worked with our local shop to figure out what was wrong and coordinate with JPI for a warranty replacement. The engine burns less than ½ quart every 25 hours (our conservative oil change interval).

The final bill was what they quoted us, plus the exhaust and a new ELT that we needed to install. Timeline was on par with the original estimates, despite some extra work. No deposit was requested.

We couldn’t be happier with the project, how it went, or how Frank and Tom took care of us.

They took a beating from some previous customers who didn’t have the same experience we did, and they are making sure it doesn’t happen again. If someone has questions about the quality of service at The New Firewall Forward, we’d be happy to share our experience.

D Weatherald
01-15-2016, 08:48 PM
So glad to hear that your experience was positive! Is been a long while since I've had the opportunity to check in with this thread. Did I understand you correct when you say you've been dealing with Frank as the manager? Its my understanding that Josh has moved on and I'd like to have some confirmation that things are turning around.

Skynight01x
08-07-2017, 02:59 PM
Just to keep this thread going in a positive direction. Frank was the manager for the last few years and now just runs the office. I've worked with he and Glenn and they both have been great. Glenn has rebuilt a turbo charger for me and has my other two turbo chargers to rebuild. He does really good work. I've had a plane at FNL now for 3 yrs and The New Firewall Forward has been outstanding. I'm pretty sure that if you have an issue with their service Frank will make it right. I would trust these guys completely rebuilding an engine for me.